Brace yourselves for the huge outcry that is sure to follow the Rail and Port Forum coming up Wednesday at the Wharfinger. We all know how Humboldt County has a cow over one-sided information seminars.
But wait! The giant ad in today’s Times-Standard mentions the “environment,” so it’s all good green.
The forum and its published list of supporters promote “the use of private dollars to modernize the port and restore the rail system.” This includes, presumably, the nefarious Goldman Sachs proposal. As noted at the earlier forum by Harbor District CEO David Hull, the GS deal is in infant stages and could fall apart at any minute. Will he repeat such ominous warnings to the pro-Goldman Sachs crowd?
Current Eureka City Council candidate Frank Jager is listed as a supporter. Former Supervisor candidates Bryan Plumley, Ben Shepherd, and John Vevoda are also listed. Even former Eureka Mayor Pete LaVallee is in there.
August 18, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I see Peter LaVallee’s name on the supporters list.
August 18, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Oops. Didn’t read all of your post Heraldo.
August 18, 2008 at 1:57 pm
That’s what I said. But he’s listed as “Pete.”
August 18, 2008 at 2:09 pm
All the usual suspects
August 18, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Peter (Pete) used to be the “Cities” representative on the NCRA when he was mayor.
August 18, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Who is on the taskforce?
August 18, 2008 at 2:49 pm
The left arm of local progressives, not all of Humboldt County.
August 18, 2008 at 2:51 pm
go local- keep it scaled properly, read up on the short sea shipping network that is established and growing on the west coast.
http://www.humboldtlogistics.com/
August 18, 2008 at 3:11 pm
You can see the RAPIT folks in this KPIX video from 2007:
http://cbs5.com/video/?id=27002@kpix.dayport.com
Another KPIX video from 2007 that has aerial footage of the rail line in the Eel.
August 18, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Why don’t they have any container ships and cranes in the ad?
August 18, 2008 at 3:49 pm
maybe with more port activity we could get a hostel or two in town to boost our tourism…
August 18, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Yeah, because “tourists” who need a virtually free place to sleep are precisely the type of “tourists” we need.
August 18, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Did you see the RAPIT TV ads? So are they a PAC?
August 18, 2008 at 4:41 pm
kateascot, that is so European.
August 18, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Kateascot, next you’ll probably be wanting a working wage, mass transit, cars that get great mileage out of a gallon of petro and health care for all.
August 18, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Oh yeah, and fair elections.
August 18, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Anon 3:56…Amazing! Money is money whether we get it from the rich or the poor who cares? The poor should be able to travel just like everyone else. But are you saying that there is something wrong with their money compared to money from a rich person? Or is it that you prefer money from wealthy crooks rather than that of the poor?
August 18, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Anon3:56, don’t look at them as the poor. Look at them as upstarts!
August 18, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I think Humboldt County has gotten uppity and have been disloyal to the poor folks in this the 4th poorest county in California. Business and political decisions have been made by people who are out to make money for themselves regardless of the consequences to a large portion of the citizenry. Yes Tom I do think that we need to pay attention to what our economy demands now rather than trying to make it appear to be more high class.
August 18, 2008 at 5:17 pm
In that respect, they qualify as an outside investment. Keep your dollars local. Don’t support hostels.
August 18, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Don’t support hostels to keep dollars local? What do you mean?
August 18, 2008 at 5:30 pm
It means that you don’t get the joke.
August 18, 2008 at 5:32 pm
RAPIT is a joke?
August 18, 2008 at 5:35 pm
well hell give me a smiley as a hint man cause I can’t see that smirk on your face…..please explain …..
August 18, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Anonymous 5:30, you joke about hostels but what about boat people? What about invasive species brought in by ships. With dead zones doubling from 200 to over 400 over the last two years world wide, Humboldt Bay may be one of the few bodies of water where one could find edible fish. Should we just take a chance and hope everything works out for the best?
August 18, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Bees are dying, raw sewage is being used to irrigate crops world wide, think of what our few treasures are going to be worth to the rest of the world as this escalates.
August 18, 2008 at 5:42 pm
We’re potentially sitting on a gold mine here. We should nourish our natural resources not exploit them.
August 18, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Tom, Humco wants to widen Richardson Grove roadway to accomodate more trucks and RV’s, people want to open up the rail and the harbor to bring in more stuff and people, how are we going to be able to slow this down to keep progress from coming to our hometowns? It would be wonderful if we could protect this area from growth that is sure to destroy our way of life and then to focus on what our reality is for the people who live here, such as affordable housing, family style recreation, stablilzing our police departments and jobs for everyone are but a few of our crucial needs here to fore not met. What would FDR do?
August 18, 2008 at 5:59 pm
We can grow without destroying Humboldt. We should grow up and not out. We need all the land we can muster to feed ourselves.
We (Arcata) are leaders in sewage treatment and this works better with a plan. Subdividing makes lots of money for banks and land owners but it is not sustainable in the long run. Spreading out only means more box stores, less pollution control, poor mass transit and a dependence on cars and petrol. If we look at Humboldt as an island or a fish tank, instead of a exploitable resource, we would be one step closer to sustainability.
August 18, 2008 at 6:06 pm
I am not against progress, I am progressive! I just don’t think that urban sprawl is progress. Ruining our food supply is not progressive. Killing people in another country because our lifestyles demand more resources is not something that can be sustained nor should it be. Those that want to come here should work to make it better not more like everywhere else.
August 18, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Must go now. Thanks to Heraldo for letting me rant here. More stuff about dying bees and food grown with human sewage on my blog.
August 18, 2008 at 6:11 pm
FDR and his banker pals stole the gold from the coins and left us still paying debt to banks on money they just printed from nowhere- he’s no hero.
Longshoremen are being cut back in Seattle, Vancouver BC, Long Beach- and somehow when our little area can belly up some public money this will make reality somehow different? This is just a scam for GS to steal public money and leave stupid taxpayers holding the bag, while the pockets of our elected who help them are lined with kickbaks.
August 18, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Hey, Bush made money outta nothing right after 9/11, remember, he said he was helping the nation recover….Who said FDR was a hero? He did put people to work though and created a somewhat stable infrastructure of roads, etc that did smoothe the way for progress in the 50’s.
August 18, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Is RAPIT even a real organization? Or was it just invented? And how can it receive public comment on anything?
It’s almost comical that it lists the names of “Former” [a.k.a Failed] Supervisor candidates Bryan Plumley, Ben Shepherd, and John Vevoda as supporters. I don’t mean to be mean, just wanted to point out that none of those people were actually elected. Even though most (if not all) supported port development in their campaigns.
August 18, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Short sea shipping is the most environmentally sound, economical and feasible way to serve the future shipping needs of the north coast area. This is a motive that is growing in popularity because its is cost effective,it works and private money supports the concept. we have a vocal few that insist that we build a large marine terminal at public expense so we can get on the China Express and get our share of the riches. Bad Gamble. If I wanted to live in Oakland I would move to Oakland–Lets get real!!
August 18, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Goldman Sachs knows that a container port in Humboldt Bay will never make any profit no matter how much public money is spent on it. So they want the public to pony up the money for a “public private partnership” and the “private ” part will be pension money looted from the public employee pensions (the only funds left with any money) and Goldman
Sachs will rake off its cut in fees. Like the mob taking its “vig.”
The taxpayers (suckers) and the pension funds (suckers also) will be left holding the bag.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
http://eurekafairchance.com
August 18, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Hahaha! Looks like the other night you had the “progressive” “No, we can’t” side. And now you are going to get the “Yes, we can side.”
Too funny! This has got to be killing ya, Buettner.
August 18, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Please attend this all important wake for the Port and Rail Project!!
The NCRA and the Harbor District are rogue agencies that are clearly wasting our tax dollars on pie-in the-sky proposals to keep their pipe-dreams alive. “Do Not Railroad Humboldt Bay!!!”
We need to protest this misuse of authority that runs counter to what the majority of this community desires. Jobs? No. After initial construction of this beast of a silhouette on our landscape, which will be farmed-out to contractors from out of the area, there may be 20-30 button pushing jobs for locals. Commerce? Again, no. Any shipping business with any sense, would not factor into their long-range plans to move containers to Humboldt without a way to move them in a timely manner to a place of real commerce, when Oakland is just another days float to the south AND the Port Oakland is currently way below capacity. Let’s not even talk about the Panama Canal re-opening in 2014. Maybe ask the “port experts” Wednesday night.
“RAPIT?”…..”RABID?”….who exactly are these (all 6 of them) rail loyalists? How arkley…I mean…are they funded? And how can they accept public comment? Must be the the Harbor District’s Rule’s of Order. Clearly, they are those who long for the day of poor air quality, poor water quality, and resource extraction….perfect! We’ve certainly seen that model succeed here on the north coast…..didn’t we just rid ourselves of a robber baron, are we ready to cede to another.
Let’s be a little more creative and all realize the sky isn’t actually falling, it’s just getting a little more clear and bright.
Please come out and listen to, hopefully, one of the last, dog and pony shows on this absurd project and feel free to give those in Sacramento the heads-up on the blatant misuse of your tax dollars on projects that make Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska’s “Bridge to Nowhere” project look viable…..at least they would have ended up with a bridge! Ask for audits of the Bay District and the NCRA and much will be revealed.
August 18, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Oh this is WAY TOO FUNNY!
If Bill Bertain is involved it means the Labor Unions are interested – and now the Labor Unions members will get a chance to see just how much all those candidates that came a courtin’ their endorsement really care about their issues – really care about job creation, really care about working people. I hope they are not too disillusioned. But maybe they’ll stop and think, and ask pointed questions, and think critically the next time one of the “progressives” comes bearing promises.
And if Bill Bertain is involved, there is someone who was once a very powerful ally of the hate Palco, love the DA forces. Now, are you going to spit in his face?
Oh, it’s rich alright.
August 18, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Labor will get more work from projects that will actually happen. It’s not a jobs v. the environment, as much as you’d like to make it that Rosie, it’s about jobs and the environment.
Local projects that are viable = Local jobs. Goldman Sachs Projects = outside contractors and a fat bonuses for Dave Hull and Wilson Lacy.
August 18, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Let’s have a list of all the recent candidates to receive Labor endorsement – then let’s hear where they stand. Mark Lovelace? Clif Clendenen… it’s gonna be quite a list. I’m sure they all sounded good when they asked to be endorsed. Let’s see what happens when the rubber meets the road.
For that matter – the Democratic Party has always been known as the party who cared about Labor, who cared about the working man. Let’s see where the HCDCC weighs in.
August 18, 2008 at 7:35 pm
If you
“really care about their issues – really care about job creation, really care about working people” -
you wont pander to fantasies.
August 18, 2008 at 7:36 pm
You may be surprised at what you find Rose.
August 18, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Yes, I may.
August 18, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Labor really realized the benefit of the PL take over in ‘86. They should probably listen this time, local projects, building local infrastructure, and the local economy produces local jobs.
Hopefully the commercial fishermen also come around and realize that 850′ container ships entering the Bay aren’t going to make it any easier for them to get in and out —especially in winter. Where’s their cherished Ronnie in representing what’s best for the fishermen? Containers and Cruise ships? Might as well dust off those for sale signs boys.
August 18, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Yeah. I get it, You want to have a bay – or perhaps a lagoon after a few years of no dredging. And you don’t want a port. You don’t want any corporate anything, even if it means the economic downfall of the community. At least it will be pretty. Oh, wait. It already is.
Working ports can be truly fascinating, beautiful and interesting places, all over the world.
August 18, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Mike, the KPIX video mentioned a “Federal study”. Do you know what ever happened with that??
August 18, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Let’s hear where George Clark stands – like we don’t already know…
And btw – Hey George’s Blog Team – my comments are still “awaiting moderation.” Since the 15th.
August 18, 2008 at 8:07 pm
The Rose has lost its fragrance.
August 18, 2008 at 8:38 pm
yeah as a port city we’ll earn the title again as living on the Barbary Coast. All the old tunnels in town can be opened back up and used for piratry, we could have some real outrageous bars with some funky live music and create some laws and ordinances that suck money from those tourists and sailors that get caught. Or we can say no to bay traffic and focus on sustainability of our natural resources by creating industry here for our community members like recycling and reusing materials for furniture, construction, etc. and more eclectic types of transportation, make this an eco groovy place for people to visit with places to go to learn how to be sustainable in your homes and communities….alternative energy demonstration sites, etc…..
August 18, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Rose, where does your pal Jill Geist stand on building a massive international port? Or is this another issue that she’ll decline to take a stand on?
August 18, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Let’s all raise our hands if we have EVER attended a Harbor Recreation and Conservation District meeting.
Start there and you can understand how difficult it is to have a conversation on the issues. The HBHRCD has powerful influence on everyone yet until they spring one of their wild ideas few of us take notice.
August 18, 2008 at 8:51 pm
“Is RAPIT even a real organization? Or was it just invented? And how can it receive public comment on anything?”
RAPIT has been around for a few years. Many of the same folks as the Citizens for Port Development. Promoting the port and rail. They can receive public comment if they like but the only comments worth anything will be on the EIR.
August 18, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Babushka – If you are referring to the 1998 FEMA report on the NCRA’s tracks then it is on thins page:
http://humboldtbaywatch.org/links/
NCRA_FEMA is the link to the pdf.
August 18, 2008 at 9:37 pm
The newspaper and TV ads have been at least a few thousand dollars. Who is funding all this? Who is on this “taskforce”? Rose, don’t you want to know?
August 18, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Has the Harbor District ever had a plan that they implemented? Or is it always just “accept” the plan, put it on the shelf, and go on to the next plan/advisory committee? They sure waste a lot of taxpayers’ money–it’s no wonder the Elsebusches can’t stand ‘em! And the consultants just keep raking it in.
Dave Hull is on the City of Eureka’s agenda for tomorrow (Tues) night to explain the Redwood Terminal “Option B”–it ought to be interesting to see how the Eureka City Council reacts.
August 18, 2008 at 9:55 pm
I want to know that about as much as I want to know the name of the mystery blogger who rallies against port and rail development (is he truly on his own, or is his considerable time investment backed by an organization?).
Ahh, but we only ask such questions when we disagree with the viewpoint being expressed.
August 18, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Free blog vs. expensive TV and print ads. One of these things is not like the other.
August 18, 2008 at 10:39 pm
“And if Bill Bertain is involved, there is someone who was once a very powerful ally of the hate Palco, love the DA forces. Now, are you going to spit in his face?”
So disagreeing with someone is spitting in their face?
August 18, 2008 at 10:44 pm
More evidence of Rose’s binary-colored glasses.
August 18, 2008 at 11:05 pm
True. Employing a blogger is far more expensive in the longterm.
August 18, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Do tell.
August 18, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Rose has a real fixation about spitting lately. Any disagreement is spitting on some one. Even saying Mike Thompson isn’t a liberal is spitting on him. I wish she and Savage could find a new. more metaphor for having a different opinion that sounds less unsanitary.
August 18, 2008 at 11:21 pm
*more appropriate metaphor
August 19, 2008 at 12:33 am
What’s to tell? There have been news stories about corporations having “secret” bloggers on staff, as well as blog/forum commenters who maintain dozens of identities at a time. In some cases it’s to promote a product and the staff members are paid basically to chat/comment knowledgeably until it’s time to deploy the marketing campaign as trusted community members.
It stands to reason that on a smaller scale political organizations or campaigns could do something similar.
August 19, 2008 at 6:56 am
her-alter-ego lives in mckinleyville, works for a non-profit, but this could be one of the job duties, that’s what I think.
August 19, 2008 at 7:14 am
This issue has been framed by one group (The Cargo Cult) to appear like Humboldt County absolutely cannot live without heavy industry. They buy the idea of personal salvation through support of Big Money and want to apply their idea to all of us.
Another group (insert clever name here) opposes the Cargo Cult people as greedy, corrupt, or stupid. Casey Jones, chased with an ax by Eugene V. Debs: hail Humboldt!
It would be nice if some – any – of this energy were spent getting people together. The railroad’s future (or lack thereof) is not a partisan issue.
August 19, 2008 at 7:31 am
Is interesting the people against the port, many who earn their living via government payrolls or grants, are suddenly against government subsidies although large infrastructure is almost always a government undertaking.
August 19, 2008 at 7:32 am
and the people for it are usually against government waste (the 731 post above is mine too)
August 19, 2008 at 7:44 am
I don’t see Sun Myung Moon proposing an alternative, just vague talk and criticism of ideas. ‘Preserve the bay’ isn’t an economic plan.
August 19, 2008 at 8:06 am
There are plenty of port and bay related things our community could spend its energy on other than a container port. The 2003 port revitalization plan has a long list. Then there are the ports that took successful different directions such as the port of Astoria and Port Angeles. Or we could continue down the dead end path of constant conflict and failure.
August 19, 2008 at 8:08 am
Right-wing Republican Ben Shepherd apparently is running for a vacated seat on the Humboldt Bay Municipal Water District. Is Ben Shepherd going to receive any campaign money for his position on this issue?
August 19, 2008 at 8:17 am
Moonies love lists. They make you feel like you’ve accomplished something.
August 19, 2008 at 8:24 am
The 2003 Revit. plan gave a thumbs down to the container port concept—this why it was shelved as obsolete.
August 19, 2008 at 8:44 am
The reason the economy is so screwed up is because we have been printing money to pay for stuff we can’t afford. Printing more money to pay for a port and railroad that isn’t needed because there isn’t anything to ship isn’t going to fix it. Spending millions of dollars for engineers and consultants to write fantasy reports of how much money we could make if only we had someone who wanted to use the port and railroad which we don’t have employs the consultants and engineers but puts us further in the hole and makes it less likely that we will be able to seize it when a real opportunity comes along.
August 19, 2008 at 8:57 am
Are you alleging that NCRA is in cahoots with the US treasury, or are you alleging that NCRA is counterfeiting money? Do you even read what you write?
August 19, 2008 at 9:03 am
8:44s comment plainly refers to the NCRA as the kind of boondoggle that is beloved of both Republicans and Democrats these days.
The Democrats and Republicans have developed a politically codependent relationship based on corruption.
We need a viable multiparty democracy, with parties representing all points of the compass.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
August 19, 2008 at 9:04 am
Are there any letters of intent, commitments or show of support from the major cruise lines or ocean shipping lines that they will use the facility once it is built?I bet not,it’s the build it and they will come mentality that we are dealing with here. WHERE’S THE BEEF?
August 19, 2008 at 9:31 am
The fact that a cruise ship or two came to Eureka without the pleasantries they’re talking about building, well, that tells me there’s real potential. The bay is just a parking lot. The real attraction is on land.
August 19, 2008 at 9:32 am
Do you think before you ask such stupid questions based on your false assumptions, Anonymous 8:57?
August 19, 2008 at 9:36 am
You accused them of printing money. Read your own words before you forget them.
August 19, 2008 at 9:46 am
“The fact that a cruise ship or two came to Eureka without the pleasantries they’re talking about building, well, that tells me there’s real potential.”
The fact that they haven’t come back should also tell you something.
August 19, 2008 at 9:48 am
9:31 Take that to a bank and see what they you. Again I ask, where’s the beef?
August 19, 2008 at 9:49 am
That we don’t have a proper docking facility? Yeah, the cruise operator noticed that. The tourists had a grand time.
August 19, 2008 at 10:03 am
The last cruise ship that didn’t make it was because of fog. No new dock is going to save you from the weather.
August 19, 2008 at 10:12 am
Oh yes, it’s so foggy that we don’t even have an airport.
Keep dreaming up excuses.
August 19, 2008 at 10:23 am
You must have started drinking early today 9:36. No where did I say anything about NCRA printing money. The plan seems to be to get government money to actually build this fantasy port / railroad and the last time I checked, they have connections to the US treasury. We, the taxpayers, get to pay it back as the declining value of the dollar makes everything we have to buy more expensive.
I was on a Caribbean cruise on the same cruise ship that came here, Royal Caribbean’s Sun Viking, and they anchored way out in the bay and used the lifeboats to ferry people ashore at the stop in St. Maarten. The time to move passengers both ways, of course, cut deeply into our time ashore but they used a dock smaller than the one at Adorni.
August 19, 2008 at 10:24 am
You allege they plan to print money. Do you deny your own words?
August 19, 2008 at 10:27 am
Yeah, people going on a Caribbean cruise kind of want to actually see what they paid for. The cruise that had a stop in Eureka was not a cruise intended as primarily a Eureka cruise. Keep drumming up fake excuses. This is fun.
August 19, 2008 at 10:31 am
“Keep dreaming up excuses.”
Who is doing the dreaming here?
August 19, 2008 at 10:34 am
The government prints more money to pay for things we can’t afford, 10:24. NCRA has no ability to print money, they just beg for money from the government which we have to pay back. You are grasping at straws and playing games rather than explain how they will pay for a port / railroad that has nothing to ship
August 19, 2008 at 10:38 am
Well, you keep drumming up silly false ideas, like the bay being too foggy.
Is it a fantasy that our redwoods are world class? No. The limiting factor is travel … access. Cruise ships are a very convenient method of accessing the redwoods.
It’s repugnant that you think our natural beauty is not worth seeing. Or, repugnant that you got yours, so to hell with anyone else seeing the redwoods. Elitist.
August 19, 2008 at 10:42 am
Cruise ships are the most expensive method of accessing the redwoods and Humboldt Bay will never be more than a convenient stop, not a destination.
August 19, 2008 at 10:51 am
Yet another excuse. Cruise ships exist. They are a thriving industry despite rising fuel costs. They travel to tourist destinations. We are a tourist destination. We offer a commodity no other destination can offer.
You can’t see the forest for the trees.
August 19, 2008 at 10:54 am
People can and do come from San Francisco on excursion buses all the time to see Humboldt County. The fact that we have only had a few cruise ships stop here EVER should tell you something. If people wanted to spend a day of their very expensive cruises here, the cruise lines would offer it.
August 19, 2008 at 11:12 am
Let’s turn Humboldt Bay into a container port, that should attract cruise ships.
August 19, 2008 at 11:13 am
I’m seeing two different scenarios here. An existing port that already handles lumber, raw logs and pulp shipments, using barges and large ships. That port seems to be functioning just fine. Dredging takes place and nothing is shutting down. The container port is a totally different enterprise that is being floated by the group involved with gravel mining to get the railroad up so they can have a cheap way to move their product because any other way is not cost effective. They don’t care whether it is funded by taxes or the private sector, but until the railroad is re-established for freight they are sitting on a shit load of gravel with no way to get it to a market. The logistics of making Humboldt a cost effective container port and the downturn in container shipping makes it a boondoggle. Goldman Sachs is not dumb enough to fund something that will not generate an exorbitant rate of return and getting a tax allocation to rebuild the railroad will be fought by even the repubs in this bankrupt state.
August 19, 2008 at 11:14 am
That’s an uniformed argument. Efforts to attract cruise ships came to a halt when it was made crystal clear that the city’s docking facilities are not adequate.
August 19, 2008 at 11:26 am
There is no downturn in any real sense. The folks who talk downturn are industry stooges who hype the need for ever-increasing profits that are not sustainable. So when things level off or drop a little, they cry the sky is falling.
The need for goods hasn’t changed just because fuel costs are high. The vast majority of manufacturing remains overseas. Congress sold our country out over the past 50 years. The United States is entirely dependent upon container shipping for the bulk of the goods it consumes.
August 19, 2008 at 11:36 am
I don’t make uniformed comments and don’t even know what they are. Fantasies about lots of cruise ships, passgenger rail and container shipping on our fantasy railroad are just that, the subtle lies from the harbor commission / NCRA notwithstanding.
August 19, 2008 at 11:36 am
“tax allocation to rebuild the railroad will be fought by even the repubs in this bankrupt state”
Once rail line is tied to international shipping it will also be fought by all the northern Bay Area counties that don’t want to be the next Alameda Corridor.
August 19, 2008 at 11:59 am
I hear the waterfront developers and merchants in Old Town aren’t too excited about that prospect either.
August 19, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Yeah, those Old Town merchants don’t want wealthy tourists disembarking from cruise ships. Nope. That would boost their businesses and thus make them unhappy. Everyone knows happiness cannot be found in money.
August 19, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Remember who owns all that real estate to be developed out there? Rob Arkley. Who else? It always comes back to an Arkley in Arkleyville, doesn’t it? Or at least it comes back to some corrupt politician on Arkley’s payroll.
August 19, 2008 at 12:14 pm
If he needs your help, Bill Bertain makes himself your best friend. The minute the project is complete, he forgets you. Some friend.
August 19, 2008 at 12:16 pm
“Yeah, those Old Town merchants don’t want wealthy tourists disembarking from cruise ships.”
That would be if the cruise ships docked on the Eureka side rather than right next to the container port.
August 19, 2008 at 12:39 pm
The rail corridor starts in the SF Bay Area, and goes east along I 80, and goes north south in the Sacramento Valley. How does it become cost effective to unload containers here and ship them south so they can then be shipped east again? Just doesn’t make sense to me.
August 19, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Plain Jane and Anonymous seized this thread to argue about cruise ships, but I want to return to the curious ad we saw in the Times Standard. Who, indeed, did pay for this? What does Rapit really stand for? Why is the list of names so eclectic? Did the “e” fall out after the “p” in Rapit?
Somehow the little photo in the bottom mentioning the “environment” looks like a classic case of “Greenwash” to me. Considering the pack of thieves that are on the list to give presentations I have grave suspicions this is just the same bunch of pipe dreamers who wish the railroad to somehow miraculously come back, and are willing to make a mess of the bay to bring in huge container ships, will accept nearly any proposal if it will get the tourist train running, and are so greedy to get their gravel trains running they don’t care what dozens of 50 car trains rumbling through downtown Eureka might do to the waterfront businesses that are planned there. What an unholy alliance?
So expect this bunch to show up Wednesday night to accept “public comment” to all be wearing green hats to try to suck in all those of us that really do care about the environment.
August 19, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Ben Shepherd is more of a Clinton Democrat the a Right Wing Republican.
August 19, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Tell me again how the trains loaded with containers will attract tourists to Old Town?
August 19, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Didn’t Ben Shepherd lose to Jill Geist in a runoff in 2002? I thought Jill Geist was the Clintonite in that race. It seems to me that Ben Shepherd is way too conservative for today’s Democratic Party.
August 19, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Just so we’re clear, there is nothing in the RAPIT ad about cruise ships.
August 19, 2008 at 1:07 pm
No he won, didn’t you hear? I believe they were both Democrats at the time of the election. I wouldn’t even call Ben a conservative and certainly not a right winger like me. You are talking about a retired union supporting teacher. I try to look past that.
August 19, 2008 at 1:36 pm
You mean Shepherd is too conservative for the people you hang out with. There is a division in the local Democratic party. There are “old” Democrats who are what most people think of when they think “Democrat. Then there are the “new” Democrats who are really Green party members (and one Communist) who realized they would never accomplish anything pissing their lives away in a third party.
August 19, 2008 at 1:40 pm
A port equipped to handle container ships is a port primed to accept cruise ships.
It’s a double dilemma. One, fear of environmental effects brought by container ships and two, fear of Humboldt County becoming the next Yosemite (which will never really happen, but the principle remains, more people = bad).
August 19, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Maybe you can explain that 1:40. What does being equipped to handle container ships have to do with accepting cruise ships? You going to use cranes to offload passengers?
August 19, 2008 at 2:06 pm
The dock is the same for cruise and container = it needs to be rebuilt.
August 19, 2008 at 2:07 pm
At least that is true in the current plan where the cruise ship would use the dock on Samoa. Why not bring the cruise ships to the Eureka side?
August 19, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Lawrence’s new blog on green ports
August 19, 2008 at 2:11 pm
1:40 your critical thinking sucks. You’re fucking nuts if you think a container port with docks on the wrong side of the bay will attract cruise ships. More people = bad? Most people think lots of people MOVING here and creating urban sprawl is bad, not tourists spending money. The pro port, pro railroad side needs to come up with somebody that at least makes sense with their obfuscations. Give it a rest, you’re a waste of time.
August 19, 2008 at 2:43 pm
There’s the real argument, the reasoning behind opposition to all of the popular issues of the day.
August 19, 2008 at 2:46 pm
What about a successful container port generating revenue spurring further development projects don’t you understand? Sure, you don’t think a container port will be successful, but that’s beside the point.
August 19, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Maybe we should build a theme park instead, with a drive thru safari? An offroad park where you could see Eureka’s homeless in the wild from the safety of your car- oh wait we have that, it’s called the 101.
Building a theme park is just as crazy as calling for an international port when you have nothing to ship. Still, a ferris wheel and some clowns might save the waterfront- we just need the ferris wheel seeing how our elected are clowns.
August 19, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Hey 1:36PM, who are these Greens and one Communist you speak of who are supposedly impersonating Democrats? The Communist would be Arcata City Council candidate and Humboldt County Democratic Central Committee member Shane Brinton, as Brinton has already admitted to being a Communist. Who are the Green imposters, in your opinion?
August 19, 2008 at 4:24 pm
You don’t have to be left-wing or right-wing to see that the draft business plan as presented to develop the container port is specious and lacking any real rudimentary financial projections that will realistically pencil-out. If it did, this plan would have a lot more support. If the cruise ships will really come if the docking facilities exist, as alleged above, show me the letters of intent from the cruise lines. Is that really too much to ask, for something this important?
I really appreciated the letter in the T-S about a week ago from the former 25-year IBM employee whose job it was to specifically develop, review and present business plans like the one TransSystems presented to the Harbor Board. As he said in his own words, “if I had presented the plan that TransSystems prepared, I would have lost my job.”
Nuff said.
August 19, 2008 at 4:35 pm
but ..but.. but ..we WANT it, Neal! You are just being mean saying it won’t work. You must be a hater who wants everyone in Humboldt County to starve!
August 19, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Seems to me the Harbor District is distancing themselves a bit from TransSystems. David Hull (while explaining the biz plan) keeps referring to the process as done by “them” rather than “we.”
August 19, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Oh you know it, I am so, so, so mean!
August 19, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Isn’t it Barefoot Cruises where you hitch a ride on a working ship, have your meals with the crew, and stop at ports along the way? Much more adventurous than the formal buffet cruise. no reason at all why something like that wouldn’t take full advantage of the chance to dock, and see the redwoods.
August 19, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Windjammer Cruises: ‘This ain’t no foo foo ship’
SAILING A TRAMP STEAMER IN THE CARIBBEAN
August 19, 2008 at 6:58 pm
USATODAY.com – Windjammer Cruises: ‘This ain’t no foo foo ship’
SAILING A TRAMP STEAMER IN THE CARIBBEAN
August 19, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Windjammer Barefoot Cruises were sailing ships where the passengers could play at being a sailor. They weren’t “working ships” any more than any other cruise line. They are out of business now.
August 19, 2008 at 7:05 pm
What do you anti-porters care if goldman sachs is going to round up the funding? Funny, if somebody from IBM wrote in supporting the plan they would be dismissed as a corporate shill don’t you think? His job was to review business plans just like the one TransSystems did? I didn’t know IBM was in the port development industry.
August 19, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Goldman Sachs MIGHT “round up the funding” after we spend a ton of money for consultants and environmental reports.
August 19, 2008 at 8:15 pm
So what is wrong with not wanting or thinking it is dumb for Humboldt Bay to become a loud polluting container port or having trains run through the Eureka waterfront all times of the day? Why spend so much time and energy on something so many don’t want? This container port/rail thing would be near impossible even if everybody here wanted it. With at least half the people here not wanting and working against this concept chances of success are even less. Time to stop wasting our energy and money on this doomed project.
August 19, 2008 at 8:24 pm
One needs to keep an eye on the developers buying all the land surrounding Eureka, with big housing tracts on their minds. It is in the county and they will decide how it will all look. Eureka will have no say except it will have to provide connecting infrastructure, at who’s expense?
Eureka City Council decides Tues. night on whether to build a solid biomass waste extension at the Sewage Plant!! You know, squeeze all the water out of our personal droppings and make shit bricks out of it. Then its sold to corporate farms as fertilizer. I hope it moves on out of here thru our new port facility, fast.
August 19, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Neal,I feel you make some valid points about the plan not being specific enough. I have concern about that too.You are however off track on your assesment of support if the plan hit all the necessary points. If and when that becomes a reality the hue and cry from the opposition will be just as strong. Perhaps even more so. Neal you may be an open minded interested party but most of the opposition to this plan object to everything that doesn’t support their own narrow intrests. Can we have a vibrant,healthy,economically sound bay and supporting economies? Yes we can and all our intrests can be fullfilled. Let the public process work.
August 19, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Seems to me all supporters of the plan object to every alternative that doesn’t support their own narrow interest. Isn’t objecting to the project the public process at work?
August 19, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I honestly think that if the railroad was economically viable, and the container port penciled out with some solid commitments behind it, you’d have a lot more middle-of-the-road Dems (who are probably the majority in Humboldt), with you. The problem for me is, history is not on the side of the old Northwest Pacific railroad line, e.g. that for geologic and geographic reasons, has been the costliest rail line in American history to run and maintain. That’s a fact. I think the $1 billion estimate to bring it back for just the short term is the most accurate figure I’ve heard.
Same with the port: Oakland is not at, nor will by best estimates, exceed capacity any time soon, and consumer economic trends do not portend well, beyond that. As mentioned above, the Panamax is coming on line soon, and that will change much in the shipping industry. Does the TransSystem plan take that into consideration? No.
Bring us a proposal that really pencils out, that we can get behind!
August 20, 2008 at 7:23 am
No matter what is done, there will be an expensive EIR process.
August 20, 2008 at 9:27 am
Neal,pull yourself away from your politics. The money to fix the railroad is chicken feed compaired to one day in Iraq, With todays tec savy planners the rail road’s Geo problems are simply a matter of job security. When the feds or state decide this railroad is viable for (what ever reason) it will be done. As it stands right now freight shipped into Humboldt bay then trucked to market will arrive 3 to 5 days sooner than currently comming through the Port of oakland. Neal ships are stacked up off the coast waiting their turn to come into port. You are a sharp guy so why don’t you back away from the negitive and step up by joining the working study groups to develope awin/win plan. I know you can do it. It’s a better way than the anti every plan way your are being lead. If you think 1 billion is a lot just go ask Congressman Thompson what he thinks the cost of decommissioning will be.
August 20, 2008 at 9:31 am
9:13,no.
August 20, 2008 at 9:32 am
The real reason the globalists want to put a container port here is that they need a lightly populated area to ship dangerous cargoes through. The insurance liability costs are far higher in places like Seattle, Oakland and Long Beach.
They want to ship munitions, nuclear waste, and flammable, caustic and highly reactive chemicals through our cities, our county and up the Eel River Canyon.
Train derailments (serious ones) happen several times a year in the United States. Just google “mecca derailment” for a serious one in California just this year.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
August 20, 2008 at 9:46 am
They want to ship munitions, nuclear waste, and flammable, caustic and highly reactive chemicals through our cities, our county and up the Eel River Canyon. WHAT!!??!
Bill! Who has EVER suggested such a thing?
August 20, 2008 at 9:51 am
Seems to me that any train that goes through Eel River canyon also goes through San Francisco. The munitions, nuclear waste, etc. comment just doesn’t make sense.
August 20, 2008 at 9:56 am
Hi Rose
Me. I propose it.
I lived in Reno. I saw daily what the Union Pacific was schlepping through my town. It is scary to see a half mile long train full of hydrogen sulfide or what ever they all say {EXPLOSIVE}{FLAMMABLE} OR {CORROSIVE} on the sides.
I know that Yucca Mountain in Nevada is going to receive nuclear waste not only from domestic sources but from Asia and Europe as well. It will go through here before it will go through Oakland if they can make it happen.
I know the millions of people in Seattle, Oakland and Los Angeles don’t like this shit either, so the globalists want to trans ship through a smaller less populated place, for the same reasons they think Nevada is a fine place to dump their 10,000 year toxic dead zone. Small population = Not enough people to object to it.
We need to STOP THIS.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
August 20, 2008 at 9:57 am
“As it stands right now freight shipped into Humboldt bay then trucked to market will arrive 3 to 5 days sooner than currently comming through the Port of oakland. Neal ships are stacked up off the coast waiting their turn to come into port.”
This is B.S.
August 20, 2008 at 10:11 am
9:27 is a gravel miner
August 20, 2008 at 11:07 am
This proposed port is just another in a long line of boondoggles being sold to the people of Eureka & Humboldt by a bipartisan coalition of right-wing tools. Any Democratic politician who supports this should change their party registration to Republican, to be honest about where they are really coming from politically.
August 20, 2008 at 11:56 am
“July traffic at the Port of Los Angeles fell 2.54 percent from a year earlier, while the Port of Long Beach saw a 12.9 percent decline. The pattern all year has been big drops in container boxes coming in and big increases in boxes going out (reflecting the weak dollar)”
Another drop at ports
August 20, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Buettner and 9:57 are both wrong,no matter how often the utter Ms Wiggins Bull Shit line. All you local solution hopefules running for office give a good talk about supporting unions to get an endorcement. Well here’s where the rubber meets the road. All that’s being asked for is a chance to try. You are so phony you can’t even let us try.
August 20, 2008 at 1:39 pm
How much for a slightly used rail? Check http://samoasoftball.blogspot.com/
August 20, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“let us try”?
Seems like you are and have been trying for many years, who is stopping you?
August 20, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Wrong?
“The slump in traffic to the West Coast of the United States is hitting the massive Yantian container terminal operated by Hutchison Whampoa. It is suffering volume declines for the first time. A majority of Yantian’s traffic is from shipping lines servicing routes to North America, where demand has been driven down by the American property slump and dwindling consumption of household consumer goods. It is expected to report a drop in volumes for the first half, having declined for five consecutive months.”
Economic tremors in the West reach China
August 20, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Any Democratic politician who supports this should change their party registration to Republican, to be honest about where they are really coming from politically.
So much for thinking for yourself, marching to your own drummer, having your own opinion in the inclusive big-tent party. Think like us or you’re out – think like us or you aren’t a “real” democrat.
Like I said, it’ll be interesting to see what the Labor people do with all this information – they can’t escape knowing exactly how important their views are to the “progressives.”
August 20, 2008 at 3:50 pm
When people think for themselves you accuse them of “spitting” and other uncivilized behavior. You can’t have it both ways.
August 20, 2008 at 3:56 pm
What I said was it’s going to be difficult for you guys to spit on Bill Bertain.
August 20, 2008 at 3:59 pm
No, you said:
You make similar statements when your political opponents don’t fall into lock step with Mike Thompson.
August 20, 2008 at 4:01 pm
BS Rose. Being a party member has privleges and obligations. Loyalty to a party is no vice. If you want to be a member of a group, you’re obliged to align with the tenets of the group. In fact, you join because you choose to align. That goes whether its the US military, Audubon Society, Catholic church, Taxpayer’s League, or Northcoast Environmental Center.
Same for Democratic political party. Lieberman is an Independent because he wasn’t aligned with the party. Being Independent isn’t a party or group.
August 20, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Correction. LIEberman is an Independent because he got his butt kicked in the Democratic primary, and consequently threw a fit and joined the Republican machine.
August 20, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Yep – I did also say that it is truly ironic to see the ‘left’ turning on Thompson, who’s reasonable, but still ‘left’ himself.
What metaphor would you prefer, heraldo?
August 20, 2008 at 4:06 pm
No way, Native. There is nothing on the form you sign when you register to vote that says I swear allegiance to the Party and forsake all independent thought – or that I will swear fealty to the Democratic platform.
August 20, 2008 at 4:08 pm
If you want to be a member of a group, you’re obliged to align with the tenets of the group. In fact, you join because you choose to align. That goes whether its the US military, Audubon Society, Catholic church, Taxpayer’s League, or Northcoast Environmental Center.
That really does explain it, Native. Such a bizarre mindset. But quite obviously that IS the way you think.
August 20, 2008 at 4:11 pm
You throw predictable fits anytime your non-political affiliates diverge in thought, Rose. Surely you can come up with your own shrill metaphors.
August 20, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Saying Thompson wasn’t a liberal is spitting on him and turning on him. Thompson is a Blue Dog Democrat and would tell you himself he isn’t left or liberal but to Rose anything to left of the far right is left.
August 20, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Well, I just find it funny that if you are guilty of independent thought you must be a Republican! Gotta live that.
August 20, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Love that.
August 20, 2008 at 4:16 pm
rose” who relishes in pointing out the irony of everything, telling NAN he has a “bizarre mindset”. That made my day.
August 20, 2008 at 4:17 pm
In the 106th Congress, the Blue Dogs are 49 fiscally conservative House Democrats who tend to vote together as a coalition on budgetary and economic issues. Their stated goal is to bring their own party back to the center of the ideological spectrum, and to forge good working relationships with moderate Republicans to help move that party more toward a centrist agenda.
August 20, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Where did ANYONE say that if you are “guilty of independent thought you must be a Republican?” Is she so desperate to score points that she must always resort to lies?
August 20, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Who is spitting on Bill Bertain?
August 20, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Rose, apparently.
August 20, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Rose, the unions have been very active in interviewing candidates for years now. The rail and port issue has been THE litmus test for most of them. More than any issue, including collective bargaining, health benefits, apprenticeships, living wage ect…
Pander to the dream, or don’t get the endorsement.
If you look at their endorsements over the last few years you will see that. Nothing hidden there.
Will Jill pander to them in her next go around?
August 20, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Pander? She’s a former Union Steward, I believe.
Is supporting the Unions pandering?
August 20, 2008 at 4:39 pm
It is if you’re a republican
August 20, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Some of you ought to run for office. Just to see what it is like.
August 20, 2008 at 4:54 pm
And I liked the pirate thing with Kateascot – Pirates of the Redwoods! – Take the ride, get robbed, stripped naked and walk the plank! It will probably get written up in Sunset magazine as the destination of the month.
August 20, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Rose, you miss the point. Even if Jill was a union steward, if she believed that the rail was an unrealistic dream and wanted to work on other things and told the unions that, she would not get their endorsement.
August 20, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Tonight’s RAPIT forum featured a speaker who mentioned the military potential of the fantasy port–for what purpose the gov’t would want to move tanks in or out of here, who knows, but someone thought to be expert enough to speak tonight brought it up. What’s up with that?
August 20, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Richard Marks report on the forum
“I had thought that someone on the panel would be from organized labor. Nope.”
August 21, 2008 at 5:13 am
Sid Berg did speak, but I guess you missed that, since you encouraged people to show up, but never bothered to show up yourself.
August 21, 2008 at 11:10 am
Blue Dogs aren’t centrist. Blue Dogs are conservatives. That rhetoric about taking the Democratic Party back to the center only proves how conservative and right-wing most Blue Dogs are. It’s the Republican Party that is out of step with the American mainstream, but if you are a conservative Blue Dog you probably wouldn’t understand.
August 22, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Back in the mid-seventies there were alot more jobs and job training programs, more low income housing. Then when people complained that there was too much fraud going on by poor peole and welfare reform began the work training programs declined and low income housing went federal. The Democrats are often too soft and the Republicans are too hard. Many people have said the past five years that both parties look somewhat alike now, so if we are at a place in politics where the parties have merged then right now we’re in a mess of hurt cause it looks to me like the way that most Americans will be making a decision for best candidate is by deciding who the man is that can wow the people with a smooth political maneuver. Issues are so muddied and some aren’t even talked about, like poverty climbing at a perilous rate! So to talk about who is centrist or moderate is not so important, what is is what these folks stand for, what are they doing within their lives to make them leadership, not just what they say or who their friends are.