Today’s Times-Standard counsels readers to pretend they were born yesterday.
The T-S chastises informed citizens to “keep an open mind” on the Draft Environmental Impact Report for the proposed “Marina Center.” Apparently, revelations about body shoves, temper tantrums, notoriously bad customer service, fraud, and the City Council’s decision (thanks, Jeff Leonard) to ditch the public Master Plan for the Balloon Track in order to lay red carpet for Rob Arkley’s big box are just little things of the past. To acknowledge them now would be “predictable.”
The T-S should give Humboldt County residents some credit. Far too many cities allow huge projects like this with nary a comment. But not here.
As we dig into the massive EIR (which is already available despite editors’ claims) residents need not forget common knowledge and previous events in order to assess its contents. Such a condescending suggestion insults the intelligence of those who are being asked to patronize the big box and sit in its traffic.
And there will be traffic. One look at the EIR Summary Table II-1 confirms the snarling mess this project will create and the slate of mitigations required to curb the headaches. Whether such measures will result in “less-than-signficant” impacts is a question for an informed citizenry, not a bunch of bleating sheep.
I thought the T-S editorial was patronizing and arrogant. I agree that it sounded a bit ahistorical and completely dismissed valid emotions and logical arguments for and against the Marina Center Project.
Although the editorial calls for openness and hugs all around, I’m curious to see how “open” their news stories will be on the project in the months to come.
Perhaps we should open our minds like a funnel and await whatever wisdom they pour into our blank cranial cavity.
Well, this editorial is mild compared with the one the Eureka Reporter ran in last Sunday’s T-S! Interesting that the disclaimer that Security National owns the paper AND the Balloon Track has disappeared from the T-S version.
Yes, speaking of predictable. Peter Hannaford’s tired “no-growth” ramblings are hardly worth comment.
perhaps the TS editors have been smoking the local product and have developed short term memory loss.
Is there a way to force a public vote on this the way that the Wallmart project was voted on and denied, or are we at the mercy of the business community’s anything we say goes representatives on the city council? This railroading of the public process by Arkely and his butt buddies just pisses me off. The TS suck up is a sign of where they are headed now that they don’t need to distinguish themselves from the competition any longer.
Their condescending attitude is nothing compared to Heraldo’s hatred and evident prick-envy against any commenters disagreeing with his ridiculous edicts.
Now that the Eureka Reporter is dead, is it time for the regressive progressives to beat the Times-Standard to death as well for their tendency towards moderation?
Well one can pounce of the council members to deny the zoning change.Really,that’s probably the last recourse,and a petition drive is possible as well,as Sec National is far too dead set and unwilling to compromise on the Home Depot aspect of the project,more pressure will need to be put on the council members,and more signatures will need to be gathered.And Red Hummer is right in saying the the quality of the ts has slowly fallen back to where it was prior to the era of it’s competition.
Maureen Dowd’s column today in the NY Times has some very interesting information about Singleton’s possible plans for the future of our newspaper. I posted his quote in Quick Notes.
Mresquan I have the feeling that the fix is in on this one. Any protestations to the pro development council members will fall on deaf ears. They will carry out their “mandate” no doubt. As to the TS, did anyone else catch the forum topic on their website: Should USA kick out every towelhead? Does anyone else have a problem with the TS not moderating this title? What’s next: Should we send all the niggers back to Africa? Some shit just don’t need to be in print IMHO.
Is the issue here the Marine Center Project or people’s dislike of Arkley? Those need to be separated.
I thought the whole Marina Center project had finally died a merciful death!
Sad to see even a possibility. Same…same.. Home Depot –
Humboldt does not need
these projects based on greed-
In the end, the people will prevail
and this “Project” will be just be another cautionary tale!
Dave, nice column about WalMart in today’s paper.
Anony.Miss: the Marina Center project, and occasionally, Arkley’s tactics to shove it through.
Uh-huh. And now that the ER is dead it’s time to pretend the blogosphere has been void of criticism of the T-S for the last five years.
Is this editorial part of the agreement to settle the lawsuit against the Eureka Reporter? It repeatedly uses the term “major retail”, obviously as a way to avoid the term “big box”, which is what the DEIR actually shows. Use of weasel words is just plain dishonest.
Media are expected to make issues more understandable, not more cryptic. Rich Sommerville must be spinning in his grave.
Eureka voters rejected a big Wal Mart store in 1998, have there been changes in the issues raised during that election? Why didn’t this editorial address what they see has changed since the rejection of Wal Mart? That would be informative and thought provoking. Instead this editorial is essentially calling for the promoters of the project to be the sole deciders of how to frame the issues and permitted to marginalize any concerns as being “close minded”.
Now, new owners have acquired the property at a lower price because it was assumed a big box store couldn’t be placed there. In fact, at the time of purchase, they said they wouldn’t propose a big box store on the site. It seems to me that they want to recapture the “Wal Mart” profit by getting the city council to pass on a big box store, bypassing the voters.
IMHO, this proposal should be perfected, as much as is possible, by the EIR and zoning processes. After that, if the city council believes it is a worthy project, it should be put to the electorate for a vote. Anything less wopuld be an end run around the stated will of the public.
One man’s revelations are another man’s long list of unconfirmed rumors. Three supposed incidents involving named people, and yet only one incident where the named person corroborated the story. Hmm.
You think the TS was dissing people with that editorial?
How odd.
A call for setting aside political rhetoric and character assassination, and actually looking at the project, and its place in the future is “patronizing and arrogant”…?
I think they’re absolutely right – this project should receive the same consideration that Costco and Target got. Nothing more. Nothing less.
This one is a political football. But it is a VERY SMALL little faction making it so. Kudos to the TS.
Bwahahaha. That’s funny. 99.99% of the people who will shop at Home Depot won’t ever look at the EIR. They don’t care. It’s quite a front you present though, as if the T-S is being unreasonable instead of completely reasonable. Spin away.
Retail is dead, retail is dead…..
Right, because this is a big box mall, nothing more nothing less.
Perhaps not. But they will sit in the traffic.
Costco was located in the most industrial (and least touristy) part of Eureka. Target replaced a big box with a big box. The Arkley project is very, very different. It takes a publicly zoned treasure where many of us hope to see cultural resources one day, and turns it into shopping and high end housing.
Our city council, hypnotized by the chimera of massive tax revenues, decided for us that this unpolished gem of parcels that could be a great cultural asset to our residents will be offered up to the gods of commercialism instead. I guess the Home Depot playground on E St. is meant to be some sort of lame trade-off. If people weren’t concerned about that property, Rose, I’d conclude that residents didn’t care about their city.
Yeah Rose, just like that VERY SMALL little faction of opposition “dead enders and hangers on” that Rumsfeld saw in 2003. He was stupid, ignorant, and arrogant. Since then, 4,200 US soldiers have died in Iraq.
In 1999, 4,015 Eurekans voted against changing the Balloon Tract zoning from “public” to “commercial”, the issue being Wal Marts proposal. That was more than 60% of the vote.
If retail is dead, then what are the hateful Heraldo crowd so flustered about? Home Depot will fail and you will have your poisonous smugness justified.
t takes a publicly zoned treasure….</i<
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHAAAHa. That takes the braindead cake.
That’s funny. Have you driven by there lately? Didn’t Arkley try to GIVE it to the City?
Not A Native – get some new material. In case you hadn’t heard, there was an election.
Rose, you’re exactly correct, there WAS an election. And elections do have consequences.
Lovelace, Clendenen, Prusha, Atkins, and Obama were selected.
Plumley, Rodoni, Shepherd, Endert, and McCain were rejected.
To be fair, NAN, you neglected to mention that Frank Jager was one of those “selected” and George Clark was one of those “rejected”.
I’m not really in favor of the project, but I believe the community is pretty evenly divided as far as the Marina Center goes.
Well score one for Arkley. But this one win does not mean the community is “evenly divided.”
Brilliant response, Rose. Your debate skills are rivaled only by your html tagging skills.
Wow. Just … wow.
True. The populace is not remotely evenly divided. I drove through Old Town and past the mall today. Hands down, Eurekans love their mall. They will love Home Depot.
Well Heraldo, as I stated, “I believe” that the community is evenly divided on this. It’s my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
This is more from talking with friends, neighbors and family than anything else.
I think that the way the past couple of eureka city council elections bear this out, though I think most people look beyond this one project. That being said, it certainly is a lightning rod topic.
I am curious as to how you see it, Heraldo. Do you think that the community is not evenly split? Do you believe that most don’t want the project?
I see much more criticism of big box mega development than support for it. Cheri Arkley knew there was substantial opposition to big boxes when she promised there would be no big box. The reaction to this “change of heart” has been loud and consistent.
A couple of other things, Heraldo, that hopefully we can discuss and alert others about that kind of dovetail with the over-retailing of Eureka and Humboldt county.
One – I have heard rumours that Walmart is interested in the General Growth property – the bayshore mall, and could simply knock Mervyns’ space down and build there and there wouldnt be a darn thing we could do about it. (shudder).
Two – I have wondered if Eureka and Fortuna are in some kind of unofficial race to see which one gets their project built first. If Fortuna got their project built first, especially with a Lowes and or a Wal Mart (or Wal Mart type store), would the Marina Center project actually pencil out for Home Depot?
Also, if this happened, and and the Marina Center were not built, what kind of hit would the sales tax monies received by the city of eureka take? From what I understand, sales taxes are a huge percentage of budgeted income for the city.
You don’t have to look far to know how the community feels. Oh sure, they’ve bought into the anti-WalMart thing, but think back – there was a LINE a MILE long when Kmart opened in Eureka. The target parking lot is full, Costco parking lot, full.
Except for the small group of shut-it-downers, who must live in hovels, or shop out of the area surreptitiously, the rest of the COUNTY will be happy with some new choices.
As long as people are in to fixing up their homes, they will love a Home Depot, or a Lowe’s or any other HomeFixUp kinda place. And when Home Depot’s time has come and gone, some other hermit crab will move into the shell, just like the Broadway Theatre is now in the old Pay’NPak. Just as the Eureka mall has evolved, just a the crson Block in Old Town has evolved, just as the Feuerwerker Building in Arcata has evolved – over time.
WHERE in the world does all this FEAR come from?
Sure, that’s why there are hundreds of thousands (or millions) of empty sq footage of abandoned big boxes across the US. Because big box capitalism is natural.
It’s not FEAR, it’s knowledge. Perhaps that’s hard for kool-aid drinkers to understand.
Red Hummer, I agree with you about the Towel Head thread. It’s offensive. And yet it is still there.
The T-S, to be fair, stopped the most offensive troll ever to stink up the Topix forum, once I called the new editor, Kim Wear, and explained the unbelievable filth and hostility the troll was posting everywhere. The troll is still there, but he has “moderated” his posts to the point where they are not mentally and morally diseased. The Times-Standard editor deserves credit for cleaning up that mess.
Rose, where have you been? We’ve missed your fair and balanced views. Always the rational one!
maybe you should ask the employees at Piersons Rose, or Ace, or Do it best, or any of the local nurseries, the list goes on and on. They’re your neighbors Rose, ask them.
or maybe they’re just there to serve you Rose.
Politically active people criticize big boxes. Don’t believe the group of people you surround yourself with reflect the overall viewpoint of the community.
Average people vocalize their opinions with their wallet, and they overwhelmingly are singing praises for the mall and other big boxes. There was, shall we say, distraction-free shopping today at independent stores in Eureka.
If you bother to look and the EIR you will find that Eureka’s sales tax returns have been in a no growth phase, adjusted for inflation, since 2001. On average local business has not flourished for the past 7 years and you can bet we will be on the decline for the foreseeable future with the world down turn. The Arkley project is not just one big box, but a number of very large stores. The drain on local established business will be profound. One only has to look at the effect on downtown when the Bay Shore Mall opened. It was the death of many, many stores and downtown has never fully recovered. Is this project what we really want to see? There will be no net gain in sales tax for the city and there certainly will be no gain for the many current store owners in town. You have to be blind not to see what will happen. This is just another chapter in Arkley’s desire to control with no concern for the real consequences it will have on the community. Read the EIR carefully. The answers are there for our collective future.
“But this one win does not mean the community is “evenly divided.””
No, one win doesn’t mean the community is evenly divided but any honest evaluation of the recent elections does. Clendenon was given the thumbs down by 60% of the voters, Atkins was close. Lovelace and Jager both won by legit margins. Even Obama won (thank goodness) by a slim margin in the popular vote. Our community and country is about as evenly divided as you can get. Which is why what we really need is moderate, reasonable people to listen to all sides of all issues and then make reasoned moderate decisions. Lets hope that all our recently elected officials do exactly that. We need real jobs and must be prepared to make some sacrifice for them. Do we need to totally trash the environment to get them, no way. We cannot allow rampant development of retail, the port, or unrestrained subdivision of the hills. But we would be remiss not to give real consideration to commercial projects, not hide behind the words “green port” if we really mean no port at all, and we have to allow homes on existing parcels. Reasonable means just that, not rampant growth, not no growth. It is long past time for the people we elect to truly represent us all, not just the latest fad or special interest.
I am a little curious, we have seen in the lest few elections a how huge contributions from Bill Pierson consistently go to candidates who oppose the Home Depot, just as in years gone past Arkley did the same. I wonder, just how much does Bill Pierson subsidize this blog and other behind the scenes political games? I do not like Home Depot as a company but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let any Mr. Moneybags, be it Arkley or Pierson buy my vote on any project
Rose, What is it that you are smoking? Your sense of reality is as clear as mud. We actually had a city wide vote a number of years ago to settle the issue. The public voted to keep the balloon tract zoned PUBLIC. What do you think that means Rose? Also you need to read the EIR. And if we have to vote on this again to settle it, so be it. And Rose, have you polled the city before you spout off with your grand pronouncements? I think not.
Stop it. You’re being condescending and dissing an engaged community.
That claim gets funnier each time I read it.
Whys everyone complaining so much!
I think we should develope the balloon tracks, there aint shit there right now but an empty feild and it makes eurekas waterfront look like shit too. Who cares if we have to take a big box store like home depot. if you dont like them go to peirsons and pay more if you would like, but just remember piersons owns the eureka mall so either way your supporting big box! Cmon guys dont we have something better to complain about all your complaining is doing nothing but slowing down any economic development in the county. if we continue to make this place unfriendly to buisness its going to sacrifice our economy. If we let in a big box we also get a new discovery museum and a nice walkable downtown area. I mean i would think most people would be cheering on this type of revitalization of eurekas downtown! Im all for it and i think alot of eureka is with me on this issue too!
That’s where their argument falls apart. If our engaged community doesn’t like big boxes, why do so many people shop there? Oh, right, they’re the disengaged community members which, oops, comprise a majority of the population. The trick is for the engaged minority to vote in greater numbers than the disengaged majority.
This is true. If people don’t like the big boxes, why are the parking lots full and why are you afraid of Home Depot if they have terrible service? Won’t they just fold up and go away, maybe Pierson’s will move to the Marina Center after Home Deport folds. I think it has more to do with Pierson giving money to the appropriate candidates than anything else. Who would fund the progressive candidates if Pierson’s closed up?
Has anybody thought to ask Home Depot if building here is even a remote possibility for them? Last I saw, they were cancelling expansion plans all over the country. Their market cap is currently about half what it was two years ago. Humboldt doesn’t exactly represent a big growing market for them.
That aside, it’s almost amusing how those who long for a big box economy because it will save them a few bucks this week or next week and maybe create a few low paying jobs (at the expense of other already existing jobs) inevitably fail to consider all the millions of dollars that flow out of the community, never to return. What part of “that hurts us all” don’t they get?
Home Depot is attracted to Humboldt county because they know they can come in and capture 70+ percent of the market. This will cause some of the others to go out of business. That’s how it works folks.
Rose will have the option of shopping where she wants for about a year or two, then she will ultimately have less options than before the big box came in-
He’s not building a Home Depot. He’s building a center, with spaces for all sizes of businesses, and offices, and restaurants. Like any project of its size, an anchor store is helpful. A. It brings in traffic for the smaller businesses, and is thus desirable, and B. They pay enough in rent to help keep the justify the cost of the project.
Losing Mervyn’s – a huge anchor for Bayshore Mall is going to be a blow for the Mall and the community. But stores move on.
IF Home Depot even comes in – and maybe the fix-it-up cocooning phase of the baby-boomers is ending here, and they won’t, it will only be here as long as people BUY stuff there. Then something else will move in.
It’s a building. It will be there, like the Carson Block and others, a place for businesses to move into for years to come.
It’s not Satan coming to earth. You buncha scaredy cats act like the sky is falling.
7:24 – who knows if I’ll be shopping there or not. It’ll depend on if I’m fixing up a room, or replacing a light fixture, or a door – it’ll depend on it I decide to remodel, say a kitchen.
But other people are doing all of those things, and they will welcome the selection. As it is they DO drive elsewhere and bring stuff back in U-Hauls.
More likely it is the pot money that will make them successful – those are the people who can afford the granite countertops…. ain’t that so? That underground economy that makes this an area that IS desirable to a Big Box, despite the downtrodden job figures.
Regardless – let people make their OWN choices. We don’t need “heraldo” deciding and decreeing for us.
How innocuous. Why not just call it Arkleyville?
The wisdom in building a giant big box that will likely be abandoned in a couple years is extremely short sighted considering all the empty big boxes that litter the United States today. Other businesses don’t step into these hulking structures, they sit empty.
Home Depot will take away your precious “choice” when they shut down other businesses.
Nothing wrong with competition, especially if it gives us more choices and helps drive prices down, because, face it, Piersons and Shafers are expensive; but, any new large stores should be built in areas that are zoned for that type of project. The Ballon Tract is not zoned commercial, and the citizens of Eureka have stated that they don’t want it zoned commercial.
That’s the point “rose” refuses to address anonnickname. The competition thing is important too. Corporations are interested in one thing, beating the competition at any cost, then once they have driven them out of business, they raise their prices to maximize profits. The argument about keeping money local is important unless you are clueless. People have a choice of how they want to live and how they want land used, in addition to how they want to shop. You’re starting to sound like Palin, “rose”. Why not throw in a “you betcha” or two with your “bunchas” and “Satan coming to earth” colloquialisms.
Great news then. Eureka gets itself an awesome new community center that we get to open two years after the opening of Home Depot. I’m so heartened Heraldo deeply cares about Home Depot and is encouraging it to make a sound financial decision to not open here, but alas, I think Heraldo is making stuff up again. Somehow, I don’t know why, but somehow I think Home Depot knows more about whether it can succeed here than Heraldo does.
Empty big boxes don’t magically turn into community centers. Look around they country. They stand empty.
Perhaps this will be Arkley’s latest argument: Once Home Depot folds he will financially support a community center and the rest of “Marina Center” just like he did with the Eureka Reporter.
“Marina Center” can’t exist without a big box anchor, according to Arkley. A community center wouldn’t support itself, let alone Arkleyville.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned on this thread or other blogs, Arkley’s recent lawsuit against the County of Humboldt.
http://www.northcoastjournal.com/issues/2008/11/26/arkley-v-humboldt/
Heraldo, why dont you just state you are a Pierson family friend and are funded by the Pierson’s… I never hear you chime off on their bigbox development, the disaster it has spread, the local jobs Staples and Michaels has stolen from the local business community …
Great place, right under the antiarkleyville sticker: Paid 4 by Pierson’s.
So? The guy retrofitted a building that was falling apart and turned it into a performance theater that, I’m guessing, operates at a huge frickin’ loss. It’d be a stretch to believe that investment will be recovered in our lifetimes. So if he builds a mega box and Home Depot leaves, what then? You think he’s going to sit on that building and let the surrounding stores die? No. Something would happen. He’d do something with the building in the unlikely event no other big box wants the space.
Either way, you’ve presented no evidence that Home Depot couldn’t thrive there. Broad generalizations about the rest of the country are bunk. For every big box sitting dormant, there are many more new ones opening every day. If you’re going to give economic forecasts for Eureka, please hint at your credentials.
If Home Depot wants to take the risk, and isn’t asking for a city handout (tax exemptions), hey, I have no problem letting them take that risk upon themselves.
Paid 4 by Pierson’s
You’re joking, right? Paranoid people around here.
Thanks for the reminder, Sunshine.
Oh, goodie, another funder. I’ll just add those paychecks to the riches I receive from the HCDCC and DUHC.
People voted against WalMart, RedHummer.
Not against Home Depot. Or Target, or Costco, or Rite Aid or Longs, or Sears or Mervyn’s.
Not surprising, given the prevalent anti-WalMart propaganda at every turn. Yet still, the stores thrive. WalMart puts more money in poor people’s hands than all the welfare programs we have. By keeping prices low, people get to keep more of their own money. For rent, and car insurance and things like that.
Say what you want, people apply for and TAKE the jobs there. NO one forces anyone to work there.
I’ve been in one WalMart one time, and it wasn’t much different than KMart or Target, and, like those stores, it seems to me it sells things that AREN’T available in a specialty kind of boutique-y shop – and by that I mean BASICS – towels, TP, shampoo, toasters, blah, blah, blah, been through this before. No one has yet named a store in Old Town or Arcata where you can buy sheets (except for the $300 sheets at the little specialty shop in Old Town, and most people can’t afford those.)
You keep saying Home Depot will kill the competition – yet Pay’NPak (also a chain) didn’t. Pierson’s is still here. Thomas, Ace, Coast to Coast (also chain related, btw)… and they’ll never touch Almquist.
I disagree with you. I don’t think it will kill Pierson’s unless Pierson’s lays down and dies because they have gotten too lazy and comfy and aren’t willing to compete and define their niche. It won’t hurt the outlying places because they get business from people who don’t want to drive to Eureka – and the contractors tend to shop at places that cater to contractors.
It may be a moot point anyway if the home market stays depressed.
No, they voted against a zoning change.
hahaha… ah Heraldo, you are a service to Humboldt.
I get much more info, slanted though it may be, here than at the TS, I hope you dont get exported to India much like the jobs Singleton seems to have his eye on.
Are you planning on lining up any economic development ideas of your own, or should we just continue with the current state of things? You are so good at tearing down, you must have a skill for building out/in?
Pierson’s helped me yesterday with an issue that nice, but ultimately useless employees at two Ace Hardwares couldn’t address (information and product-wise).
I’m not concerned about Home Depot. If it dies, another big box will take its place, or the building will be carved up for smaller businesses, or it will lie blissfully dormant and still be better than what we have now — a polluted wasteland that no one uses.
My only concern is traffic, but Eureka decided long ago it wanted traffic snarls when it fought to keep a highway in the middle of town. Eureka has embraced gridlock, and if you choose to live in Eureka, don’t complain. It’d be like me complaining about hippies in Arcata. WTF were you thinking moving to Eureka? It’s a nice place to shop.
The question for Rose is if she would be a satisfied consumer if her only option for building supplies was at The Home Depot. I don’t think anyone would disagree that The Home Depot’s motive is to eliminate competition to capture the largest percentage of the building supply market. The less options the better for big box stores.
My opposition to this plan is not about Home Depot being a retailer, its about this location, A large retail facility as shown isn’t utilizing the scenic, recreational, entertainment and commercial unique characteristics of an urban waterfront. It isn’t a wise use of scarce waterfront property. I think the Fortuna mill site is much more suitable for large retail, as one example.
For those of you who believe that whatever a property owner chooses to do should not be second guessed by the public, we simply disagree on the responsibility of Government to regulate land use for reasons other than immediate safety or health. The law is clear, Government has that authority.
And the reason Government authority exists is because of historical experiences of unregulated development. The evidence of large negative community effects due to unregulated development are many, H has pointed out just a few. If you don’t find them persuasive and compelling, further evidence won’t matter to you.
The best way to move forward would be to put the final development proposal to a popular vote. In that way, no one can claim their opinion was unfairly not taken into account. If the proponents of this project are against letting the electorate democratically decide, wouldn’t that be one indication that they don’t believe a majority wants their project?
The question for Rose is if she would be a satisfied consumer if her only option for building supplies was at The Home Depot.
The answer is NO.
And every business tries to take business from its competition. By the products they choose, the ads they run, the services they offer, the prices they set – increasing your market share is the name of the game.
Do you really think they can hurt an Almquist?
If Pierson’s had been more ambitious and grown, and spun off its successful business model into 16 or 150 Pierson’s should they be hated?
Stop and think.
With those big boxes comes the sameness, yes, that opens the door for the niches, the specialty places with the unique items. Not everyone in business wants to be a superstore selling sheets and diapers.
You’re asking an environmentalist for an economics lecture.
Not every small business can survive while only selling niche, speciality type items Rose, especially in Humboldt
It’s not our job to keep businesses in business.
Great to see this conversation going back to the most salient point, that of location.
A big box retail store can conceivably be located anywhere. People are going to drive their cars there and the Eureka area isn’t very big so in practice there is no good reason to take up valuable real estate on the waterfront and dedicate it to indoor-based retail.
This development will first and foremost be an eyesore on the waterfront. That is a major reason the zoning change was opposed when Wal-Mart attempted to develop the site. If Wal-Mart or other “major retailers” want to locate in this area they must find a suitable location. With the Mervyn’s corporation shutting down due to their own mismanagement there is now space in the Bayshore Mall. As the company that runs the Bayshore Mall blew their wad on new developments in Las Vegas and is now on the ropes a developer could conceivably purchase the entire mall and do with the site as they please.
Home Depot as a corporation is also in huge trouble right one. They have shut down all new developments this year. Their business and growth were based on the massive flipping of homes and they are severely overstretched in the face of a housing slow-down. The likelihood of them developing this site seems rather low at this time. That said the Marina Center developers aren’t attached to Home Depot, they just thought that would be a popular store. Any big retailer who can use that kind of sq. footage will be fine by them and you will have no say in the matter. This is why the EIR is important, to determine beforehand if this is a suitable type of development.
Public opinion stated in the not distant past that this was not a suitable type of development, or at least the “major retailer” part of it was not. I contend that without the “Home Depot” unit the Marina Center would be an enormously popular development. The developers myopia on this matter clearly indicates that the majority of the project is simply a poison pill for a “major retailer.” This dishonesty is troubling and should make you wonder what else the developer is being dishonest about in terms of this project.
The site, at the edge of Old Town, is not entirely bad for retail. A mixed use development of a reasonable size is also a reasonably intelligent planning choice for that site. Any such development can and should be forced to retain the public nature of the waterfront site. It must be designed to bring the waterfront INTO the development rather than putting a wall against Waterfront drive with a parking lot behind it.
Remember folks that if a large corporation sees such tremendous retail opportunity in Humboldt they will keep trying to find a suitable site. This has been the major reason that this type of retail has been kept at bay. Target, Kmart and other larger retailers in Eureka fill a niche. They have opened at a trickle and they have been absorbed into the community. Target, for its part, redeveloped a closed “major retail” site and greatly improved it. Montgomery Wards was another business that closed down in Eureka because of the corporation failing rather than the local community not supporting it. The site was ideal for that type of retail and there was very little real opposition to the project. Target corp even had the decency to change their design to fit the coastal regulations when they were brought up. This is the “major retail” model we should be looking toward continuing in this area. Large projects that require zoning changes with questionable impacts being ram-rodded by moneyed interests should be treated with suspicion on principle.
Finally, do not fear rejection of the Marina Center project. New stores opening typically do not bring new business but they often bring new product selection. At present Eureka has a decent and slowly improving retail landscape due to the paced addition of mid-sized and larger national retail chains. The growth into the area of stores like Borders and Bed Bath and Beyond and Target and yes even Michael s and Staples has been good for the general retail landscape. I for one can see a need for a Best Buy type store in the area but am unsure if there is sufficient volume to support a business of that size. I suspect much of their potential customer base is shopping online at present.
To summarize, consider the scale and the location long enough and this project begins to make little sense for Eureka. Further consideration of the developers and potential tenants introduces further doubt. Any abuse of process should be a death knell for such a proposal. In contrast to the manner in which Target developed the former Montgomery Wards site I would say that abuse of process is already rampant in this matter and we should act accordingly.
Sure there is. Any large retail development creates traffic, and people don’t want traffic in their neighborhood. That’s why we have shopping districts.
Ohhh, no, wait, I see you qualified your claim with “no GOOD reason…” In other words, there are reasons, and you simply disregard the opinion of every single person who favors this development. Oh, well, that’s perfectly acceptable.
All Arkley has to do is go to General Growth, who would love to get out from under the Bay Shore Mall and bring his beloved Home depot there. It is already zoned for the use he wants and all he has to do is remodel.
The voters have already voted on the balloon tract and it was overwhelming to keep it zoned PUBLIC. Arkley is trying to rewrite history. In other words, he is trying force Eureka to bend to his will. That is what he does, manipulate using money and bluster. By the way the EIR says very little about the clean up of the balloon tract. I wonder why? Again, I get the feeling most of you have not bothered to read it. It states that Eureka has been in a 1% growth to 2% decline for a number of years now, but the statement in the EIR that there would be no adverse economic impact with Arkley’s plan, boggles the mind.
Yep, anon 2:33 there are reasons for this project to go ahead, bad ones. Like:
1)The developer got the land cheap because it was zoned public and can make a lot more money if it used commerical.
2) Because there are already ugly and inappropriate uses of property on the bay, it would be unfair not to have one more.
3) This area is so depressed and without ability to chart its future, anything a landowner wants to do that requires spending their money and results in a building is a good thing.
4)Local merchants are all thieving crooks who need a comeuppance from a competitor who will make them “race to the bottom”.
5)Waterfronts are unsavory places suited for undesirable types. The bay waters are smelly and unhealthy, useful for waste disposal, dirty industries, and shipping out whatever minerals, flora and fauna found lying around the area. This development will put stores on a place where respectable people would otherwise not be willing to go.
Eh, you may be right, maybe he should take over Bayshore Mall.
Would you then fight to have the city purchase the Balloon Track from him? To keep it “public?”
Remember it was offered at one time, and the City didn’t want it.
Or do you just want to let it sit there and have him pay the taxes on it forever unable to develop it? Not exactly fair, but…
If Home Depot/Best Buy wasn’t in the equation would you support the project? (I do doubt it, but…)
If he gave it to Bob Ornelas for his EcoHostel, would you still demand the full cleanup and would there be any of this opposition?
Or is it all about Arkley and not about the project at all, as the lack of opposition to Target and Costco would suggest?
If he sold it to Pierson’s and they were going to expand their business, would you still object?
The answers to these questions will tell you alot.
Wow NAN, five straw man examples. Neat. Keep making up arguments we’re not making. I take it Home Depot is a slam dunk good idea if this is all you have, poking fun at fictionalized arguments you made up yourself.
Oh Rose.
If he took over the mall, it is still a toxic dump full of years of timber industry contaminants. I’m surprised they didn’t build a school or a playground on the Palco Marsh. By the way, is it still called the Palco Marsh? It would be more cost effective for him at this point to designate the Balloon Track a “refuge” than to finish with the mess hidden deep below.
If you have not yet noticed, the mall is emptying out, probably due to something called a recession or depression. Even Mervyns is on the way out, which I feel is a blessing for local business. So what if Pierson’s built a supercenter. No matter what size of the business, as long as the benefits are reaped by the employees and LOCAL community(unlike Maxxam, Wal-mart, Home Depot, etc.).
Humboldt County is being attacked from multiple fronts. Not to sound paranoid or anything.
We have seen the war that the City of Eureka wages against the houseless and other “undesirables”. Those who deny that blood is being spilled by corrupt trigger happy pigs are perfect obedient citizens for the Fascist Corporatocracy. The human beings that they are trying to cast out of this twisted system are in effect a byproduct of so called progress, chewed up and spit out, left with PTSD from unjust war, debt from keeping up with the Jones’s, psychoses from fundementalist dogma, and more…to come.
Instead of judging people for their situation, try looking at their environment and the bigger picture.
We’ve seen the war against nature by big business and out of state(and country) interests. Our forests are plundered and our rivers no longer run with fish. Even the along the token scenic strip of the Avenue of the few remaning Giants, Redwood tops are dying off. Our water is being stolen by the vermin down south. Fortunately, home construction is down, and the price of timber is way down, so maybe our trees can get a much deserved break.
The biggest battle I feel is keeping non-local corporate interests out of Humboldt. Maxxam finally split. Sounds like the pulp industry is leaving us, maybe Eureka will smell better aside from Arkley stinking up the place. Hell, maybe Arkley will leave too.
We need to keep the big trucks, the big ships and the big planes out.
We need to protect our home.
I read some of the EIR and it is obvious Rose and some of the other people blathering on have not. It is seriously flawed in the areas of Transportation, the Clean-up of the toxic mess down there, and on what is called Urban Decay. These are just the first three parts I have read. The rest may be just as bad. Of course EIR’s are generally written to be biased, but this one is worse than most. It is going to get roasted.
And our food.
And our water.
Yes, yes, EIRs are written to be biased in favor of the developer. That’s why developers hate EIRs, because they’re one big choir singing the developer’s praises. Yep, developers are so modest they hate the fuss of a parade being held in their honor. That’s why developers balk at EIRs being required. They’re modest.
EIR’s are required where there is environmental impact. It has nothing to do with what the developer likes. In an EIR like this one the developer has a lot to do with who gets hired to do the work. So big surprise, they tell the developer what they want to hear. The is why we have a comment period to balance the scales a little and let a little truth come out.
Rose: It is all about Arkley. There. You satisfied?
Rose, Did you read the EIR yet?
Really? It’s the city’s document and the developer merely pays the cost. The consultants answer to the city, not the developer. Something tells me you’re making this up as you go along.
The problems with the Bayshore Mall have next to nothing to do with the retail climate in Eureka.
There are some “good” reasons to build retail, even Home Depot, if you want it. None of them require it be built on the waterfront.
Once again, the key issue here is location. Is this an appropriate location for this development?
The city govt. trying to ram-rod this through is worse than the developer doing it. This is a very large project with enormous impacts. Debating it is wise. Had the Bayshore Mall been properly debated at the time many of the negative effects could have been abated. Proper traffic planning, for one.
Rose didn’t need to read the EIR- once Heraldo came out against it, she knew she’d be emphatically for it
Given the ideological tunnel vision of both people, that’s a fair analysis 6:23.
Actually Mr. A first proposed to turn the balloon tract into a public park, before he got the grand idea of Home Depot. He probably had the idea before he proposed the park and was using it as a ruse to get the city on board, the old bait and switch routine. He is dumb like a fox.
And he fooled everyone with the Arkley Center. What exactly is he up to next?
Anon 10;43, Nov 30…. you said “even Obama won (thank goodness) by a slim margin in the popular vote” . I think you missed the fact that Obama won by the second largest margin in our history, only being surpassed by Reagan.
On the balloon tract, in the midst of the greatest economic down turn since the great depression, does it make sense to move forward with a project that has the potential of weakening our local business climate in many many ways. We are talking about our friends and neighbors here folks. Even without another new big box added to the mix, new store closings after the holiday season are going to be numerous. Do we really want to play Russian roulette with a new bullet in the chamber? Is this really about you wanting to buy a new toilet for $30 less than you can now buy it locally? By the time that you have gassed up the old truck to drive to Redding to buy the cheap toilet, how much have you really spent in time and money for that precious commode? Stay home, buy local, and be happy that you supported your community.
Olphart, how did Arkley fool us with the Arkley Center?
I can’t help but chime in on this “do we want more choices” argument. Every time my parents visit here from the Bay Area, they point out every neighborhood hardware store, and they talk about how they used to be able to go to the hardware store in their neighborhood, as well as the one downtown in their little suburb. They invent reasons to go into the hardware stores; “Don’t we need some nails or something?” And when I ask them what’s the deal with the hardware store fetish, they say…the only ones around anymore are Orchard Supply and Home Depot. They will drive 10 miles to the next town that has a “real” hardware store before they will go to this big box stores. Why? Because those big box stores have minimum wage employees who can’t help customers find those thingies that you don’t know the name of but can only describe. My brother lives in SF, and has complained that he has to drive all the way to Daly City to go to a “real” hardware store to find the things he needs.
And if the Bay Area can’t support BOTH the Home Depot/OSH and the neighborhood hardware stores, how is that going to happen here? This isn’t fear, it’s reality.
Remember this? A blast from the past from balloontrackwatch.org
November 2003 — Headwaters Fund awarded the city of Eureka $45,000 grant to help fund a master plan for the Balloon Track… The master plan would have studied…what specific types of development the community wanted to see on the site. The zoning will have to be changed from its current “public” status if any new, private development is to occur at the site — the master plan would have recommended what to change it to, after an extensive public outreach effort gathered enough community input on the recommendation.
September 21, 2004 — By unanimous vote Eureka City Council supports Balloon Track Master Plan after the hundreds of hours of staff time spent writing grant applications and interviewing prospective consulting firms.
September 2004 — Arkley: “If you’re me, do you really care what the city thinks?” he said. “I don’t want to have an alternate plan out there because it might not be what I want.”
LINK (NORTH COAST JOURNAL 11.4.04) >
October 5, 2004 — “With all apologies to council and staff, I’m not willing to go any farther forward down this particular road,” Councilman Leonard said. “A hundred thousand dollars is actually, in my mind, a lot to pay for a study.” Leonard said that unlike in other cases when the city had partnered with private interests, Union Pacific showed no interest in working on the master plan.
“Until I see someone out in the community who really thinks this study needs to be done to help them get this piece of property developed, I personally don’t think we should go forward,” he said.
LINK (NORTH COAST JOURNAL 11.4.04) >
Yes, I do remember that. Thank God for small miracles.
11:18- you are so right about the hardware stores, and many other types of small businesses as well. They need to stay. Look at the large stores we can’t support, and how many have left who have tried here. Those who think we need a Trader Joe’s are not being realistic. Wanting and being able to support are not the same thing. We do have small local stores with great products though.
The biggest battle I feel is keeping non-local corporate interests out of Humboldt.
Yep, Muskrat. That’s the mentality.
The EIR is a report. It identifies things that ought to be considered or mitigated. It doesn’t say yes or no. It gives the antis something to hang their arguments on – oH! we can’t do it because of this or that, this is insurmountable, you can’t do this… but it doesn’t determine whether or not they are right.
Arkley should have hired the Foerster-Gill people. Then he’d slip right through.
You read the EIR Rose?
Even if Eureka wanted every big-box store in the world and was going to build them there is still no reason to do it in this particular location.
As for Home Depot or Trader Joe’s these stores offer nothing you can’t already get in Humboldt and I would bet $50 against either opening up even if the Marina Center got built. Trader Joe’s because they have no presence on the 101 corridor and that does not fit with their retail model not to mention lack of demand (two natural foods stores in each Eureka and Arcata) and Home Depot is circling the drain and in serious, serious danger. Lowe’s would be more likely if that was the market being served. All that said where is the demand for hardware items not currently being filled here? Do you really need another place to buy wood in Humboldt County/
There used to be a Pack n Save? was it, where the Broadway Cinema is located. That store had toilets and fans and lamps and all that. It was also not a behemoth. Eureka could possibly use another store that size. Home Depot? Not so much. Way bigger than the local market.
Two Buck Chuck. Where can I get that here?
and diamond-lok paver edging
and shitty service
Sorry, I was merely pointing out these are two things I have not located here that I have purchased. I can find crappy service locally, Anonn. One of the worst is when I went to a local store to buy a few items some time ago and stood in line for 10-15 minutes while the person behind the counter was going off about Wall Mart to the person ahead of me. I finally put the stuff back and left. On the way out I heard, “Did you need something?” Talk about irony.
With all these WalMart kills local business stories, there must also be some businesses that survived, that adapted, or whatever – Have any of them written books, or a guide to how to not only survive but thrive in the wake of a WalMart?
Now there’s a growth opportunity for somebody – need a job? Start interviewing people. Write a book about it. Give seminars.