Based on a flyer found at Eureka city hall, it appears the army of pro-Marina Center forces gathered at the Arkley Center before heading to last night’s City Council meeting.
Many were clad in Marina Center sweatshirts and buttons as they read from Arkley’s cheat sheet. Perhaps the shirts were free, or maybe some were left over from the 2006 election day intimidation ring.
Download the Talking Points pdf.
Earlier: Marina Center EIR open thread
Baykeeper would NEVER do this, I’m sure!
Duh!
Same thing goes on Election night!
So what is the objection Heraldo ?
Did they go on a rampage & bust windows, overturn cars or attack cops ? Did they beat up Larry Glass & the enviro extremists ?
The objection is that prostitution is illegal in Eureka.
Progs never invite other progs to meetings? Doing so is scandalous? I’m not buying it.
The problem was they said nothing about the actual contents (or lack of ) of the EIR. All I heard was great heart-rending testimonials about how much they HATED their UGLY, POLLUTED, NASTY city. I would be surprised if more than 3 of them had even seen the EIR, let alone read it. None of them seemed to actually like living here.
At the 2006 election, thugs in Marina Center sweatshirts blocked polling place doorways, hogged voting logs, and generally intimidated voters until they were run off. I guess it’s just more business as usual for SN and RA. What a way to run a railroad!!
Way to say it, A Nony.
So they did a better job of mobilizing their supporters…get over it. I suppose if a truckload of nimbys showed up to voice their opposition, they would’ve all read every page of the EIR??? Riiiight…
You totally miss my point, 1:49pm, as did most of the commenters last night. The point is that the hearing was supposed to be about the merits of the EIR, whether it met CEQA requirements. There was almost nothing about the EIR. Everything was about how we hate our terrible, ugly city. What a show! But it did not adress the reason for the hearing. I would make a pretty sunstantial beyt that most of Randy’s gang had never even seen the EIR, let alone read any of it. The damn thing is over a FOOT thick. The public had only TWO weeks to look at it. And there apparently was no copy at the library for review. Don’t worry. There are enough holes in it to drive a lawyer through!!
If that is your standard Mouse, the hearing would have had 2 speakers at the most & would have been over in less than 15 minutes.
Which, actually would have been great !
This is not about Arkley v. Pierson or Nimby Progs v. Jobs. It is about public community-based land use planning v. secretive developer-driven land use planning. Apparently the City of Eureka needs new tax revenue so badly they will sell out their own public with bogus indemnification agreements and phony environmental reviews.
It’s dishonest and disappointing. Jager should know better. Jones can’t keep up and Leonard doesn’t bother trying, but Frank has been there before. He knows better.
And so where were all you nay sayers that night? You had your chance to speak. So now you will sue? Take your ball and go home? Quit whining when you lose, it just makes you look bad.
Speaking of the Arkley Center…they had a free performance today for school children; Jack and the Beanstock. It was pretty cool.
OP – The fat lady didn’t sing yet
Oh bull, J M & M, the objections have nothing to do with “land use” & everything to do with no-growth.
The cover of the opponents is to claim it should be reserved for waterfront type businesses. But those same people are voting for the kayaker & not the pro jobs candidate for Harbor Commission.
It is all about building nothing, nowhere, no time.
Then you throw in the fact the developer is a Republican & outspoken at that, & we even have people from Arcata poking their noses into our business, objecting to what we do in Eureka.
If some big ship building company came in wanting to put some big business in, the enviro’s would come up with another set of excuses for objections.
This land set fallow for many decades. It was a garbage dump, polluted, an eyesore, & defiled by “homeless” bums. If this Marina Center project is stopped, it will set empty into the 22nd century.
Since when did progy’s give a shit about content. A-no-mouse you make statements that are not backed up by fact. If monitors at voter booths saw that kind of behavior they would have reported it. Instead you say it happened with no proof. Thugs, how about the folks that go to meetings and don’t let discussions take place when it is not on progy agenda. You make accusations about not reading EIR or living in the area which are totally unfounded and of which you have not one bit of proof. Again the typical response from you. You lost this round, sure you will rally the troop for the next meeting. Hope you get crushed. The regular folks in Humboldt are about sick of this shit.
One thing perfectly clear is that theres been a ton of discussion about highest, best use and water related business but no one has produced a list. Larry Henderson was promoting a trailer park there. The park idea got shot down. We might have had a community pool where did that idea go, but theres one more shot at that one… not on the Balloon Track though.
The deep water channel for shipping is on the other side of the bay people, theres no way to dredge deeper on this side. period.
NCRWQCB says this property Will be cleaned up and maybe this entire thing is going to be be 3-2 all the way, but whatever. The Balloon Track is going to get cleaned up. Sorry Im gloating just a little, its time there was investment here. The city cant even pave streets right now much less provide jobs.
You tell’em HumRed. We’ll crush you typical thugs like bugs! Damn Progy’s…sheeit.
Not sure what you are exactly but I sure do hate ya! Probly more of that Anti Job, No Growth, move em’ all to the city and make em grow indoor types.
Are the Teabaggers pro-Marina Center now?
Eurek-ugh.
Gee, what a shocking scoop this is Heraldo!!
I am sure the several hundred post cards inviting us to the center at 4:30 were meant to be VERY hush hush.
I heard they had the get together in the dark so no one would notice the throng as they drove by.
Guess you don’t like getting beat by your own game, but, fear not, it’s only round one. I am certain you stand up ethical types pretending to be scientits and all will have a new plan within 24 hours.
You’re on the list? No way!
This city with its “company town” mentality has no one to blame but themselves. Arkley-ville is here because everyone sat around for over 40 years and did aboslutley nothing with that damn balloon tract. At any given time, this city could have force Union Pacific to clean up their mess, but they didn’t!
Not if, but when the balloon tract is up and running, the urban decay will start. We made a pack with the devil for few low paying jobs – we deserve everything get. It makes me sad, this city could be so great and we have settled for so little.
annonymous says at 5:12,
scientits ??? Boobs on the International Space Station?? Oh! Miss California after implants. That’s right….Ms. Prejean ? Might be a new use for the Ol’ Railyard yet…after all it is zoned for public. Oh Crap! You probably got extra “tea party” excited and just made a spelling “misteak”.
P.S. Even on Halloween I have never pretended to be a “scientit” or dressed like one. Sure gives a creative mind ideas though…
HumRed STILL doesn’t get it. It was NOT supposed to be the croc-odile tears and ‘ugly old Eureka’ hearing. It was supposed to be about the MERITS of the EIR. You guys packed the hall with cry-babies but still managed to duck the issue completely. Next time try to actually show us that you did your homework.
And as a matter of fact, several poll workers at Harris Ave and downtown had to ask the Marina Center sweatshirt gang to leave and quit tying up the voter logs. I was there and I saw it. It was stopped before it got to the point of law enforcement but reports were filed. So cheer for Arkleyville, suck up to the big box corporate destroyers, and believe that this crap somehow improves society, but don’t say I don’t do my homework when you don’t even know what the assignment was.
And, hey, I like ‘scientits’ or any other kind. Maybe the Minions would like to change the zoning from ‘Public’ to ‘Pubic’ to formalize their screwing of us all. Nice!
I love it when the Mouse roars. The meeting brought back memories of PL flooding the Dupes and the Regional Bd. mtings. And the RB ignored their own staff recommendations whenever anyone shrieked “jobs.” Our Mayor even took the odd move to suddenly utilize cards to ensure that there was an uninterrupted barrage of pro project commentary.
LOL.
mrsb814 Says, 4:15 pm,
If by cleaned up, you mean looks wise, O.K.
If that’s all you want, why not put a wall around it and paint a nice picture on it?
Fact is, the the reason people in the new marina center will be safe from the toxins there is because they will be separated from the toxins by the parking lots and buildings. I think I read that in the times standard. I think it was a water quality regulator that made the statement.
This is more of a cap like one done off highway 299 between Arcata and Blue Lake. That one is sending a plume of toxins toward the Mad River.
I guess you were referring to those nasty ugly trains that are rusting away on the site
There will be partial soil removal and tests before the cap. And the city is off the hook, but for how long? If a plume enters the bay and causes problems in 10 years, does the Arkley indemnification still stand?
whats the diffrence arkley prints his talking points out on a peice of paper while heraldo talks his “talking points” on his blog.
Why would anyone who disagreed with the merits of the EIR enter that lion’s den? Even the mayor was not handling comments fairly. The deck was stacked.
I drove by the ArkyCen yesterday eve and wondered what was going on that needed an army of security gaurds at the doors. I must have seen five protecting the good protesters from lord knows what threat G and 4th st have to offer.
Tom –
“Fact is, the the reason people in the new marina center will be safe from the toxins there is because they will be separated from the toxins by the parking lots and buildings.”
This is such an important point in this discussion. Personally I hold UP responsible. Unfortunately Arkley indemnified them too. Clean up should mean it could be a park and that is why the City walked from Rob’s offer to donate. The City would have had to clean up the site to a much higher standard than Arkley. The clean up now means no earth contact for residential or playground.
A park would have been taken over by the bums & would have become a perpetual city law enforcement problem.
If Cherie had been even a little smart she would have known it would have become Eureka’s biggest problem for decades.
Jobs are what we need, not more bums.
to Tom… the contaminants causing the plume toward Mad River now are not the same type of contaminants as on the Balloon Track. I heard Kasey say the old mill site had dropped the water table and after they left the water returned to a normal level, raising contaminants that had previously been undiscovered. But I wasnt taking notes Id have to verify this with Kasey. Shes the site manager-very aware of what hydrocarbons are present on the balloon track.
Bunker C is a fuel oil, very heavy–it binds with soil like gunk-it doesnt move with tidal influx its not a threat to water quality as I understand it. There are heavy metals like arsenic that I believe was used for weed abatement and that would effect water quality. From the site maps of testing and btw these were developed from a thorough study of land use-they knew what practices had been in place and where to look before they placed the test sites… the BT has been charcterized to the satisfaction of NCWQCB but they have repeatedly stated more testing will be done as soils are removed.
If the site were going to become a preschool the place would be cleaned up to edible dirt, for mixed use as proposed there are mixed amounts of cleanup and capping which contains what can be contained but there isnt going to be a future plume, go to geotracker and see if you can figure out how to read the data on your own don’t trust someone to tell you what it says.
and to Living In Eureka at 5:48 the citizens of Eureka werent up in arms about what was going on with Southern Pacific on the BT at the time because what they were doing wasnt illegal (at that time) they werent purposely polluting the land and the effects of the land use werent known until after they were gone. Union Pacific inherited the legacy of these contaminants, now SN has bought the rights to clean it up and be on the hook alone for cleanup certification and future testing into an unknown amount of time ‘forever’?
The NCRWQCB has been following guidelines developed for the EPA by the World Health Organization in the 1980s so this is relatively new science and theyve experienced changes in cleanup methods as I understood Kasey Ashley explain at the Wharfinger recently.
I think its important to note-or at least its important to me that she lives for water quality-her job is her life and her character has been attacked by enviros when she’s following the guidelines developed by huge government entities before she took on this particular job.
I am an environmentalist but you wont see me hanging out at BayKeeper, I work alone. I ask questions to satisfy my own curiosity; I volunteer for committee work I sometimes have little faith in because it takes so g.d. long to get anything done.
I take advantage of friends and family with rolodexes sometimes and maybe that gives me an edge or at least I think it does because I know where to go for the answers I need, Im active here because I care about this cleanup and my community.
Sure I get attacked once in awhile because when you have an opinion in public anonymous people feel free to take a shot but does that stop me? nope.
“If the site were going to become a preschool the place would be cleaned up to edible dirt…”
Say maybe 20 years from now I bought some property on the BT and wanted to rent the first floor for residential. Could I do that?
ok, Mary, you are an “environmentalist” just like Kay Backer, but aren’t you also married to City of Eureka employee?
I believe there would be a restiction to the deed…
Not a Eurekan…does being married to a civil engineer disallow me from thinking for myself or disqualify me in some way-its his rolodex Im riffling for leads but *someone is sleepy now and my typing is keeping him awake. Have good dreams :)
no, Mike, you couldn’t–none of the alternatives analyzed in the DEIR or the FEIR contain ANY residential (or any children’s museum) and the reason is that the cleanup that is proposed isn’t adequate.
Read the EIR, people of Eureka–that’s what it says.
And you know what? it doesn’t matter, because we know what the City Council will do. It doesn’t matter what is said at city hearings. They are bought and paid for (except the 2 we know are not).
What about daycare or senior residential on the first floor?
nope, not allowed unless they do a full cleanup, which is not one of the alternatives under consideration.
No park, no children’s museum, no daycare, no residential…so what does “mixed use” mean, in Security National vernacular? Parking for Priuses AND SUVs???
oh Cherie would be SO HAPPY if she could park her SUV in a Prius parking space! yay!
High Finance: that was what was TOO FUNNY about all the Good Eurekans at the hearign last night, having such high praise for the Arcata Marsh and how cadly Eureka needs a marsh too.
Have you ever herd of Palco Marsh? Eureka’s marsh, right next to the Bayshore Mall–that no one uses for birdwatching or hiking except the Sat. morning Audubon hikes, because it is Bum Central.
A restored wetland behind a big box store will just be more garbage-strewn homeless encampments. It will never be another Arcata Marsh until the City of Eureka changes its attitude.
Hiring people who live in Eureka woud be a good start.
Mike there were deed restrictions on the BT when SN bought it. To me ‘deed restrictions’ means the city of Eureka couldn’t have put a park there either.
9:34, the deed restrictions were optional agreements between the developer and the railroad and should not be a factor in city government deliberations. Union Pacific should clean up the property and is legally liable to do so. The community could use some leadership in this department from city management.
Did it ever occur to you that SN got this property at a price below market rate just so it could be developed? What IF…what if the property sat around another 30, 40 years would you be happier? Water quality would be pushing UP to clean it up right now instead of SN if they hadnt bought it and negotiated themselves into this position. The cleanup would be no more or less than what it is now-water quality standards in California are some of the strictest in the USA.
The got it below market because it is polluted and Union Pacific wanted to get out of cleaning it up for maximum possible uses. Funny how “clean” becomes debatable. Lawyers!
Except, Im hyper aware that UP was following the waterboard’s direction to the letter before this property transferred. I believe the property was not listed for sale when negotiations began, as in the past SN was doing a community project (like the zoo) when talks started it was about donating to the city of Eureka and when that fell through for whatever reasons, the deed restrictions making it perfectly clear what could and could not occur which maybe yes allowed UP to escape future liabilities but it seems beside the point now because someone else has stepped up to the plate. If SN were to go under water quality would not forget about UP. Water quality objectives have never been forgotten-their main concern is to clean this up and that is what will occur.
Security National employees are so brilliant that they need directions to go five blocks to City Hall!!! Or more likely these right-wing assholes were bussed in from out-of-town because support for the Marina Crapper is slim in this town
HumRed, High Finance and your fellow brainless money-worshippers: You obviously hate living in this community because of the lack of runaway development. My suggestion to you is: Get the fuck out of our County. Move to Southern California where your obsession with unrestrained growth can be realized. Leave Humboldt County alone. Assholes.
MRSb814… It doesn’t really matter if the ground soil was “purposely” polluted or not, the fact remains it was!
It is also true, neither Union Pacific or Southern Pacific are no longer present in our town. But that does not mean that these companies dropped off the face of the earth.
They’re still in business and should have taken responsiblty for the damage & pollution that their companies caused in our city at whatever date it was discovered – period.
But because of the lack of action by the leaders of our city, this was NEVER pursued. That seems to be the norm around here. Hence, now we get to deal with the Arkleys and lure of a more low paying, unskilled jobs that we’re all excited about???!! The people around here need career opportunities not a bunch of dead-end jobs!
If this city thinks that this is something to celebrate, than they deserve Arkley’s plan for the balloon track and everything that goes along with it. But I do wish Eurekans would stop being hypocrites about this and place a new sign outside town – it should state: Welcome To Eureka,the Underachievers of the State and Proud of It!
but..but..but, if Union Pacific had to clean it up first then Rob might not have gotten his hands on it and we might never get a Home Depot!!
L.I.E. 11:40 what an unfortunate acronym I cant help it…
Lets get back to square one please. The City of Eureka is smaller than the State of California and Water Quality ie. North Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board, NCRWQCB is a state agency…THE lead agency in charge of cleaning up the Balloon Track-they were on top of this. UP was the last guy standing and they were dealing with it. When the lead state agency told them to put in test wells or remove fuel containers whatever… they did all that in a timely fashion.
You see, I also wanted to know this stuff, because when I was taking minutes for subcommittees for community leaders (including Bonnie Neely and Patty Berg) this same stuff came up in conversation often ‘we need to force UP to clean this up’. I went home to write it up as minutes and someone I know said I might want to call the site manager at water quality and ask them what we can do, he gave me the phone number. I called them on a regular telephone, from my house and asked-they gave me straight answers that UP was to the letter up to date behaving etc etc. The City of Eureka was in contact with the state agency and btw the city cant levy fines and all that stuff State Water Regulators do that.
I know its frustrating. All this stuff takes so gosh darn long if you watch too closely it seems like a snails pace, but stuff is happening and there are a pile of people lined up to slow it down even more.
Im frustrated too! I woke up thinking about a class action Nuisance Abatement lawsuit and lining up EPIC, BayKeeper, Faust whoever else wants to obstruct the cleanup because Ive been waiting longer than some of you have. Im still pissed about EPIC suing Target and Target putting in a smaller store so I cant ever find chocolate mint cookie clusters from Archer Farms!
My goodness, mrs. b -
All this experience, and you don’t get that the freaking clean-up standards change depending on the status of the property.
I see I need to stop using the word ‘stuff’ I do have a vocabulary…
Water quality will tell SN how to clean up the Balloon Track based on a site plan of the development yes, but shouldnt you be asking more questions about deed restrictions? I want to know more about this too…
So the Arkely offer to give the City the BT for a park was a bogus offer?
no Mike..its my opinion they A) werent fully informed that there would be deed restrictions in those preliminary discussions or B) perhaps had ulterior plans to put a community pool there but its only conjecture. That would have required a lot of parking wouldnt you think? Why are we looking to always vilify the Arkleys? I dont really understand it except for sour grapes mentality and I would assume we have more optimists (like me).
ok I really have to go for a hike after lunch because I get stiff sitting still too long if you want to talk Im going to ACF– parking on fickle hill…
Auntie Arkley Says:
October 22, 2009 at 11:34 am
HumRed, High Finance and your fellow brainless money-worshippers: You obviously hate living in this community because of the lack of runaway development. My suggestion to you is: Get the fuck out of our County. Move to Southern California where your obsession with unrestrained growth can be realized. Leave Humboldt County alone. Assholes.
I’m not a brainless money worshipper, I don’t hate living in this community and I wish the best for everyone. “Runaway Development?”…get a grip you biacth. The only asshole big enough to fit all of Humboldt county’s no growther, enviro-hypocrits is yours.
“Im still pissed about EPIC suing Target and Target putting in a smaller store so I cant ever find chocolate mint cookie clusters from Archer Farm”
Heaven forbid we stifle your cookie obsession for a few feet of set back from the Eureka Slough to accommodate a trail.
where the hell was David Cobb and the Democracy Unlimited crowd? I thought they were all about fighting corporations. Or do they just fight the idea of corporations, and leave fighting the real live corporations to the enviros?
Ohh, so EPIC is the reason we have a smaller Target? That sucks.
“Southern Pacific are no longer present in our town. But that does not mean that these companies dropped off the face of the earth.”
Southern Pacific no longer exists, after merging with UP.
I am all for the Arklys. But am very much against Home depot. They sell crap and have no service. The products they sell are brand name but are a contracted price. So the manufacturer cuts corners in their production. That is why the products are cheep junk. You the consumer save a few dollars, get a downgraded item, don’t get quality, don’t buy from local stores, all profit is removed for Humboldt co. This is all a false discount. Walmart and Costco are almost as bad but Home depot is the absolute leader in this game.
As for the Arklys, I hope the do a true cleanup of the property. I think the proposed cleanup is a bit light. I hope Home depot pulls out and Arklys find a better anchor store like Nordstrom or Music World. What the hell larry wont vote for it anyway
I have to say it one more time. The Public Comment was supposed to be about the adequacy of the EIR. Arkley’s minions turned it into an attack on Larry and a big sob-session about their nasty, ugly, hateful town. The mayor, bless her little heart, did NOTHING to curb the totally inappropriate personal attacks or to keep the testimony on topic. What a way to run a railroad!
Right on a-nony-mouse. You are wrong about blessing
the mayor’s little heart. I think she’s a robomayor wired for the right wing, by the right wing. Wish
they would dress her more appropriately.
Yes — Bass and Michelle Obama must learn to cover their arms. If only America would embrace the burka.
Perhaps khakis and a riding crop so she could wack Larry whenever he tries to speak?
You know Virginia is now a democrat, right, “Anonymous”? And “Middle”, “Arkley” is spelled with an “e”. Nordstrom’s at the Marina Center? Yes, when Bloomingdale’s comes to Valley West….Bergdorf’s could have a store under the Totem Pole in McK…Dean and DeLuca at Sunny Brae Shopping Center..
the least Marina Center can do now is add Trader Joes…
Don’t forget Lowe’s.
Dude you can’t compare Costco and Walmart in the same sentence.
Costco does sell some off-brand stuff and trick customers by pulling items from the shelves on purpose just to restock them next month to keep people coming back. What Costco does that Walmart doesn’t do is pay health, vision, dental and a reasonable wage. My buddy went through college on football scholarship, got a degree in recreation, and was all stoked about being a coach… but then got a job at Costco. Now this fool stands in behind the door where they keep all the high-priced items and call off the numbers on a little vulcan headset deal. Also manages inventory, orders, coordinates the product shuffling trick. Paid vacation, raises, promotions and all of that. He has been there for years. Supposedly they start everyone at crap hours and wage but after 6 months that changes. The most fucked up part is he never has to wait in line at Costco.
And the average Walmart worker? None of that, just slave wage. Takes two years to get on their bullshit medical coverage. That’s why Walmart is so cheap and its publicly-traded stock does so well. So, fuck Walmart. Put in a second Costco.
Heraldo, it is not about sleeveless, it is about
an unprofessional look. She represents for city.
Her look is —ty.
You sound as bad — and backward — as the Republicans who want to put Nancy Pelosi “in her place.”
Bass is a tool of the Arkleyites and is ripe for criticism as such. Complaining about her clothing is knee-jerk sexism. Let’s stick to the substantive issues.
If you speak to Virginia one on one she really is a nice person. I give her credit for switching parties when she has had a close political and friendly relationship with the Arkleys. She said she has to be true to her beliefs.
It is my sense that there are at least three flavors of local Republicans – the big business corporatists/ fascists like Arkley, the main street old school Republicans, socially and fiscally conservative, but well aware what the corporatists and the Bush family have done to their party and their country. Mayor Bass is one of these but it is not clear which. The third and newest type of Republicans are the Paulistas who seem to be reviled by the first two. The three way split in the Republican party is becoming very bitter.
That being said, the Mayor has always been nice to me personally even though we are obviously 180 degrees apart on almost everything.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
But Virginia is a Democrat now. I personally don’t want to be affiliated with either party. My parents are old and Republicans- and the most caring people. They are careful of their money, worked hard all their lives, and don’t want it wasted. They also give lots of those less fortunate. I hate the way some Dems blanket paint Republicans as only caring about money. There are so many shades in this color wheel of parties.
The Republican Party of my youth advocated for things like a guaranteed income or a “negative income tax.” They believed that the blessings of liberty and prosperity needed to be shared by everyone to an extent, and that the burdens also needed to be shared.
In the past, when we had a war, taxes were raised to pay for it. There were even surtaxes on the wealthy. The top tax under Eisenhower was over 90%. No more, now we have a war and the rich get the biggest tax break in history – and guess what – we are broke.
Yes I detest the Republican Party for what it has become and I work to defeat it but I have known lots of individual Republicans who were decent enough people.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Paying higher percentage of taxes because you have a higher income doesn’t come across as “fair” to me. Do you think the wealthier folks should actually pay 90% of their income in taxes? Just doesn’t sound right to me at all.
“decent enough”? I have know Republicans who have given back to society as much or more than any person regardless of party. I think those who expect the world to hand them everything are some of the least likely to give back. Most people I know who I truly admire are not stuck in their party’s parameters. They have their own ideas of what is good and decent, and their politics are somewhere in the middle. It’s the extremists of both parties that, to me, suck the life out of our society.
I think that we should have a wealth tax and yes it should be progressive, the more you have the more you pay. They way it is now the poor pay a higher percentage of their income than anyone. That is not “fair.”
We should tax the rich enough that they squeal in pain. We should tax the rich enough so that when they die they can look their Maker in the eye and say “I paid my share.”
But we won’t eliminate the rich. After all, in the 1960′s, widely regarded as the most prosperous era in American history, after 40 years of 90% taxes, we still had rich people. Didn’t we?
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Please don’t confuse me with a Democrat, Anony.Miss. I am a libertarian socialist.
When I say “decent enough” I mean that I have known Republicans that weren’t outright fascists, imperialists, neo-mafioso or religious extremists. Capiche?
have a peaceful day,
Bill
I propose to cut the state sales tax to no more that 2 1/2%. That’s what I call a tax cut. Then let the thieves in Sacramento figure out how to pay for their yachts, their seminars in Acapulco and their prisons. Any of you tea baggers on board?
Why would a socialist want to cut a tax? Because the sales tax is the most regressive tax on the planet, and California’s is high.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
I believe people feel the impact of taxation more through earned income than that of sales taxes. The Fair Tax Plan (in conjunction with the tax exemptions based on income levels) is the best idea to come around in years (actually, an old idea gaining newer, younger generational support).
Sales taxes are great because it is a levied tax upon those who consume AND whose consumption is causing many of the environmental, social, economic, political, etc… issues that are just now being politically realized as needing funding to mitigate such impacts. Besides the basics for life’s standards, all new purchases would be taxed only once and never again when they are considered “not new” after the very first sales transaction. In addition, the consumer decides whether or not they want to be a taxpayer, AND, how much in taxes they decide to pay based upon what they decide to consume by quantity.
Also, do you really think rich, uber wealthy people will stop buying and just stockpile their money – not very likely for most since the whole idea of making the money was to spend the money on life’s lavishes.
Don’t punish productivity – punish waste!
Jeffrey Lytle
McKinleyville – 5th District
Rubish.
Its as ridiculous to say:
We should tax the rich enough that they squeal in pain. We should tax the rich enough so that when they die they can look their Maker in the eye and say “I paid my share.”
as to say:
the whole idea of making the money was to spend the money on life’s lavishes.
Neither is true or fair. Sometimes people make more money than they ever anticipated but they dont spend it as soon as they have it either. With wealth comes responsibility.
A flat income tax same rate for everyone would be more than fair. Yes to sales tax those that spend more should pay more.
Highboldtage you sound bitter… dont do that life is too damn short.
Jeffrey,
What is your evidence for the productivity of the rich? It is labor that produces wealth, not money.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
I’m not gonna harsh you Jeffrey, because we have met a few times and I like you, we probably agree on lots of things, but we debated this over a year ago.
Neal Boortz is one of the biggest assholes on the planet, and he is behind this wack idea of the so-called fair tax. That’s enough to just say no. So we don’t need to debate again, we just recognize that we are on different sides. But I will debate you on labor v capital in the creation of wealth if you want. It could be fun.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Anon,
First of all, I don’t advocate an income tax. Income taxes are Republican ideas, I advocate for a wealth tax. I don’t think that 95 per cent of the population should pay any tax all on their income or wealth.
Corporations and the top 5% of the wealthy, and foreign tariffs should be the source of income for our governments.
Then we need do decide how big we want our government to be, in terms of % of GNP, and collect taxes accordingly. It should be easy to get a consensus on the size of government if we simply measure it by GNP.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
With all due respect Bill, who is going to do the jobs that require expensive and difficult schooling, if they are taxed so that they are made to have the same income as those who prefer to be slackers? Is that what you mean? Is there incentive to spend a lot on schooling if you can’t make it up over your lifetime in income? Part of giving back is performing an important service to society, but the reality is that sometimes it takes a lot of money to get there. The financial reward needs to make up for some of that investment, both financial and personal. Do you disagree? Should everyone end up with the same income regardless of what they do? Where do you draw the line?
6:05 pm,
I believe that there are very few people who make money and hoard all of it without eventually spending it. It is true that some people use the accumulation of wealth as a power device, but inevitably, they too spend it.
It is a fair and true statement that the whole point in making money (uber wealthy) is to spend it on lavishes (creation and consumption). Additionally, higher priced goods and services that are purchased by the uber wealthy will create higher tax bases paid for by the wealthy and not the less wealthy.
H.B. – productivity is not just limited to the rich. Earned income taxes hurt the wealthy less than it does the less wealthy. Also, any labor for another (ie. employee of a corporation, big business, small business, government, etc.) is usually (at least that is the intention) going to create wealth for that another. Therefore, self-employment is usually the one method to create wealth for yourself.
Yes, debates are a good forum for openness and understanding. Remember though Bill, when it comes to labor, one thing is for sure – labor is not equal AND never will be equal when subjectively and objectively comparing one’s labor to that of another’s labor. In other words (IOW), no 2 people work exactly the same rate, same intensity, same convictions, same effort, same commitment, etc… Therefore, something is needed to differentiate the practices and results of that labor for “reasons of social fairness through production comparables” when it comes to allowing individuals within the workforce to separate themselves from each other based on the results of that labor (ie. joey works harder than budafucco; Anne wastes less time at work than Mary; Billy was the employee of the month for having the highest gross sales, Maples Plumbing was picked over ALL-State Plumbers because their work is much better at a lower price per unti cost, etc…)
We may or may not disagree on parts of the Fair Tax Plan, but, I can only say that I have yet to encounter any sensible argument that exposes the Fair Tax Plan as anything but what is being advertised by it’s co-authors.
I remember a saying someone approached me with – the person recognized that “an old dog could learn new tricks” (pun) – well, I happen to believe this saying applies with the entrenched in politics too. The Fair Tax Plan will take out “the tricks and gimmicks” that are currently used by YOUR GOVERNMENT and the IRS today to bilk taxpayers.
Quit taxing labor and expanding government – then we will see beneficial outcomes for tax generation.
Jeffrey Lytle
McKinleyville – 5th District
Yes I disagree with your premise. Education should be free up through graduate school for any who are capable and desirous of that level of education. Similarly, a an advanced trade school education should be free for those who wish to become culinary workers, mechanics, welders, pot farmers, fishermen, carpenters etc. It all needs to be free, or cheap enough so that it essentially free. To do otherwise is stupid as a society.
Not only do we need to make education free (again) but we need to “bail out” our young people by FORGIVING EVERY STUDENT LOAN NOW.
Forgiving the student loans will lift a burden from our college educated young, who at the moment are paying off loans on essentially worthless diplomas.
Forgiving the loans of our young will cost far less than bailing out GM or the banks.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Forgot to opine this,
Tax collection/generation is like a sports team – from time to time, a new offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, special teams coach, etc.. is needed to CHANGE the System from pro style to wildcat; from spread offense to west coast, from run and shoot to ball control ground game, etc…. This psychological and systematic change is the same conceptual idea as for tax collection, generation and revenue sharing – from time to time, a change is necessary to re-invigorate the production that is needed to yield better results.
Jeffrey Lytle
McKinleyville – 5th District
Jeffrey,
What percentage of GDP should government as a whole consume each year, in your opinion? Fed, State and Local went up to a bit less than 30% last year under GW Bush, and that is the highest it has ever been.
Last year of Clinton it was just under 20% of GDP.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Nordstroms? That is hilarious!
Good question Bill.
The answer is definitely not going to be zero %. I can do some research back decades ago before the national debt structure got all out of whack. My intuition right now is that GDP consumption (as a vague percentage / non-itemized) by government should never exceed the 5-10% range. However, if government was smaller, the GDP consumption SHOULD decrease (not a standard given though).
Again, a good question that makes a person THINK!
Jeffrey Lytle
McKinleyville – 5th District
Yes Jeffrey, and it is a question that all can answer without rancor. The last time the government consumption of GDP was at 5% was around 1905, a little more than a hundred years ago.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Hey Bill,
here is another copy and paste having to do with the thoughts about progressive and regressive taxes.
A point I have made in the past and will continue to make is that the definitions of these tax types does not really fit the “real-world” applications any longer. The problem is taxing labor.
A sales tax (supposedly regressive) taxes impacts and waste. In fact, a sales tax can be progressive in that those with more money purchase higher “ticket price” items in larger numbers (more points of sales).
Also, a progressive income tax only exists if tax rates are the same for everyone, not changing for certain income groupings or going down for the super wealthy. An income tax is a direct tax and all direct taxes must be apportioned throughout the States (per U.S. Constitution) – with varying tax percentages/levels, apportionment does not truly exist. Thus, the arguments declaring an income tax to be illegal.
Jeffrey Lytle
McKinleyville – 5th District