The corporation known as the Humboldt Coalition for Property Rights, Inc. has been suspended, according to the California Secretary of State website.
It could be a simple matter of paperwork. A suspension, according to the SOS, means:
The business entity’s powers, rights and privileges were suspended or forfeited in California 1) by the Franchise Tax Board for failure to file a return and/or failure to pay taxes, penalties, or interest; and/or 2) by the Secretary of State for failure to file the required Statement of Information and, if applicable, the required Statement by Common Interest Development Association.
Hard to imagine how an entity with umpteen thousand million members could drop a little ball like this run-of-the-mill stuff.
But then again, maybe HumCPR is like its 5th Street storefront — lots of signs and slogans but the lights are off when you look inside.
thanks for a little something to dream about tonight, Heraldo!
Thanks, I can’t wait to get emails of everyone’s comments about this post… It’s gonna be hoot!
this situation mirrors the flagrant violations of campaign finance laws that chacterize all of arkleys political maeuverings
Thanks for catching and pointing out the minor paperwork oops. Where would we be without friends like these! All fixed. Check again in a couple days and the state will have their info updated.
They could operate behind a computer with funny little names but they are out front with what they stand and hope to accomplish so this little oops,from this not so little (which is what really pisses all the Heraldites off)group of volunteers. This truly is Pulitzer quality jounalism.
Whether you agree with CPR or disagree, it WAS another nice catch by The Humboldt Herald which is why we all read it. And it was good journalism.
Ouch! Well done Heraldo. Very much in the your tradition of “Provoking Humboldt County since 2006!” This should get nasty, I’m gonna go get some popcorn.
if this was really journalism, wouldn’t the herald have called members of HumCPR to see what the situation was?
Now is the time to litigate against the board members as individuals becuase they’re are not currently protected by the corporate veil.
This is a minor paperwork issue that happens all the time.
But Heraldo loves feeding red meat to desperate Arkley haters.
“This is a minor paperwork issue that happens all the time.”
Heraldo said, “It could be a simple matter of paperwork.”
“But Heraldo loves feeding red meat to desperate Arkley haters.”
Maybe desperate Arkley lovers should learn to chew and swallow before commenting.
Arkley has nothing to do with HumCPR, but if it feels good to say it, go ahead. Heraldo(a)uses the spread the hate technique. Attatch any name you want to anything you don’t like and don’t worry about the facts. That is why the anonomous name is used, but most of us know who the Heraldos are, no not a multiple personality in one person but multiple people with different personalities, but one hate.
OffTheRez=Pete Nichols? The style fits.
An Non A Me wrote,”Arkley has nothing to do with HumCPR, but if it feels good to say it, go ahead. Heraldo(a)uses the spread the hate technique.
Arkley’s name wasn’t brought up on this thread until High Finance came along,the same High Finance who perhaps disagrees with you that Arkley has nada to with HumCPR.
Ha, Ha , Ha, Ha.
A Non A Me would not feed Heraldos red meat because like stray animals they multiply?
It is good journalism. It’s also not a big deal unless someone else grabs the name in the next few days, as happened to the Green Party some years back. Not likely that anyone was planning for it to take advantage of that window. And obviously even the Green Party situation was rectified.
Look, its a simple matter. All the “rural lifestyle” folks don’t get into town but once a year to stock up on vittles, gawk at the antics of the hoity-toity city people, and pick up thier mail. Soon as they trade some pelts and handicrafts for cash, they’ll pay the CPR fees to the revenooers. Thats it isn’t it?
Yup. Maybe then we shoot us some varmints.
Or pitchfork ‘em.
when i comes to town with my pelts, wire wrapped jewelry, and “medecine” i likes to sits down at some public ‘pooter with a bowl of steamin’ hot adhominems and grits, and bait city bloggers…just to rile em up a little.
and what is this HummerCPR group, do they teach how to administer… to those in need?
Medium rare, there are probably three dozen corporations in Humboldt county that also had the same minor paperwork issue this past year, maybe more.
Why do you suppose Heraldo ignored the other 35 ?
guess what……..the over 4,000 and growing daily members of humcprs coalition does not give a rat’s #ss about this non story……..
When are they going to post that gargantuan list of supporters?
Over 4,000 alleged members and the organization can’t keep up with its taxes or filings with the Secretary of State. My.
When are NEC, EPIC, Baykeeper, Healthy Humboldt, Local Solutions and all the others going to list their members and supporters? Maybe there are embaressingly few of them.
Maybe those groups should boast non-stop about their mythical monster support group so they can get on the same page as HumCPR.
When is CPR going to be more up front with what they are actually trying to accomplish, in regards to logging and subdividing ranch and ag land?
Right wingers need to maintain a calendar. That’s just for starters.
HumCPR suspended for not keeping up with its obligations to the Sec of State.
Security National can’t pay it’s obligation to the City of Eureka.
The Eureka Reporter had to close because ownership couldn’t prop it up any longer.
Humboldt’s pet millionaire selling his Alaska getaway.
Subprime mortgage industry collapses in worldwide financial meltdown.
Five years to develop a clean-up plan and apply for a permit after purchasing the Balloon Track.
Connected or coincidence?
Very difficult to track members of anon 11:36 groups as each group is made up of 60-75% same members. Especially at the active member level. Many of the same folks involved Salzmen, Nicoles, Miller, King, Savage, J Gault, Twomby, and other carpetbaggers.
I’d say it’s karma…
what sort of corporation is HumCPR? interesting that it is registered under Bob Morris’s name…a developer who’s been fighting the county planning department for years. Another property rights guy who suddenly got so interested in hippie homesteaders when he saw he could use them.
“HumCPR suspended for not keeping up with its obligations to the Sec of State.
Security National can’t pay it’s obligation to the City of Eureka.
The Eureka Reporter had to close because ownership couldn’t prop it up any longer.
Humboldt’s pet millionaire selling his Alaska getaway.
Subprime mortgage industry collapses in worldwide financial meltdown.
Five years to develop a clean-up plan and apply for a permit after purchasing the Balloon Track.”
great points, anonymous!
just shows how far we’ve come-conservatives have been screaming for over 40 years that they want the government to be run like a business and it appears it’s been achieved!evidently,the template/role model is universal incompetence.
like a dinosaur, “grow big and keep a small brain.”
i wonder if the “homeboys” over at sec. nat’l are capable of organizing a piss-up in a brewery.
and just what is all of this rancid horseshit about “carpetbaggers”? an absolutely intellectually stunted observation.
if you don’t believe me, here is Bob Morris’s 2004 petition to rezone 81 acres of the McKay Tract so he could develop it. Kevin Caldwell, Bob Morris, Randy Gans…oh yeah, they just want to protect the rural lifestyle!
http://co.humboldt.ca.us/board/agenda/questys/MG15558/AS15615/AS15616/AI23491/DO23533/BOSAgendaItem.pdf
Lee Ulansey is the carpetbagger–lives in Kneeland, but the grand jury website lists him as a Eureka resident. Goes to SoHum to act like a rural homesteader but is actually a landlord and property manager.
Seems like Earth First! has more of an interest in protecting our Rural Lifestyle than HumCPR.
http://efhumboldt.org/
They are sittin’ right now in the McKay Tract!
It ain’t a lifestyle if no one new can join it. It becomes just a fossil lifestyle, like the welfare ranching of the couple dozen big holdings that haven’t folded yet because of county subsidies and guarantees. The county would rather force unprofitable, destructive cattle onto the hills than use or neglect them rationally.
But people defending the rural lifestyle are stupid.
The situation’s actually a lot more complicated and interesting than these stupid bumper stickers anonymi have slapped on the subject. Keep reading the HumCPR Newletter, there’s lots to learn.
Who can’t join the rural life style? I see plenty of land for sale.
Its not expensive because there isn’t enough. Its expensive based on its income generation potential, because it is assumed you will grow pot and can make the high payments.
No, just CPR people who “think” or “claim” they are…
I live 2 miles from the county planning department and watch my neighbors behave like it’s still the Wild West.
Well-known attorney/developers on Eureka’s Martin Slough rely on eager city staff and forgiving state regulators to grease the skids for more McMansions in the wetlands, despite a failing infrastructure and the tax revenues that never materializes from this narrow model of growth.
It’s still profitable to build these big homes because they’re still being subsidized by a community where 75% of the residents cannot afford home ownership! If developers were to pay the actual costs of low-impact remote subdivisions, few, if any, would be built. In fact, the rural homesteaders I have known for 35 years successfully limit their impact on riparian areas because they have the resolve and the financial resources that most lack.
We need to be far more conservative with our limited public resources by supporting growth that serves actual demographics, and the explosion of single-households of the retiring and working poor, for which Humboldt County has the lowest housing inventory.
Or, we can continue to pay dearly for the increasing public costs of poverty, for more public services, welfare, drug abuse, crime, and homelessness.
Thank you Heraldo for demonstrating what media responsibility used to look like; by keeping an eye on issues that have critical impacts on our community.
Well said Wheel!
Hmm, 1:50, you tell me the assumptions that govern a lifestyle you’re hostile to, then tell me I’m wrong in what I actually know, because I don’t share your ignorant assumptions. Then Jeff tells me I’m stupid.
Jeff, I often agree with you. I don’t think you’re lazy or stupid. The reason hippies and timber beasts are banning together is because they’re both threatened by the nannies of the state, which can’t be trusted with a pacifier, let alone regulations and rifles. And since they’ve not yet evinced any shame, all this BS ‘think’ and ‘claim’ stuff has barely begun. We all have to talk to people we don’t already agree with in order to learn anything.
Reinventor, good observations. I agree with everything but your assumption that rural homebuilding has squat to do with anything you say or see. It doesn’t. Rural building rights cost the county nothing like what McMansions in unsewered suburbs do.
If such truly rural building is zoned and permitted for self-sufficiency, and McMansions continue to be restricted to ugly clumps near the services those pigs (according to Dr. Lindsay’s report) want, everyone’s happy, and none of you good people need to hate us anymore, and we can all go back to hating the timber beast together. I can hardly wait!
I never did call you stupid, longwind. Maybe I misunderstood you, if you were being sarcastic. Sorry if I offended you.
I was making a reference to the fact that CPR touts the fact that their concern is “protecting your rural lifestyle” when in fact, CPR is all about logging and developing. But they don’t claim their intentions openly, and I feel that they misrepresent their intentions and have “fooled” otherwise ecologically minded “back to the landers”.
I suppose logging IS a rural lifestyle, but making it easier for landowners to bypass regulations and clear-cut trees is something I’m against. To use the guise of protecting property owners rights to subdivide while protecting a “rural lifestyle” is also misleading.
If you are talking about CPR defending rights to alternative building codes, gray water systems, etc., then that sounds great! Sign me up!
But what are CPR’s ulterior motives?
Hence, the controversy…
See, the thing is, Jeff, I joined HumCPR to protect my rural lifestyle. To protect it against gun-toting, badged bullies randomly enforcing regulations that could convert any landowner into a county revenue-farm. I’m not paranoid, I’m experienced.
I’m not at all about logging or developing. Most HumCPR members aren’t either. No doubt some are. That’s why it’s called a ‘coalition,’ not, say, a Scientology center. Your insistence that common interests don’t exist, that I’m a puppet of the Dark Side, is simply uneducated. Just is, Jeff.
When the county returns to reason, Arcatans and Garbervillians will lay together again. Until then, I’m enjoying Bill Barnum’s history lessons. I can’t help it, I’m learning something.
dang Hidalgo, you saved us all again from another evil taxcheet corporation. Do you have a cape?
Hi Longwind,
Here is another “history” lesson.
The 1982 Timberland Productivity Act is where we receive our Timberland Productivity Zone (TPZ) definition. And in that law, at Government Code Section 51102(a)(4), the Legislature declared that the intention of the act included the following Legislative intention:
“Encourage investment in timberlands based on reasonable expectation of harvest.”
The “harvest” of timber is called logging.
Jeff Muskrat begrudgingly admits that, “I suppose logging IS a rural lifestyle, …”
No. It is not just a rural lifestyle. It is the consequence of a Legislative intention to encourage investment in timberlands. Moreover, the Legislature stated its intention that certain lands in California be set aside specially zoned as TPZ to encourage the investment in timberlands for the specific use of harvesting timber (aka logging).
The law goes on to say that residential use of TPZ lands is compatible with that intention.
Not urban uses, but residential. Not a village, or a city, but a house. A residence.
This is not a complex analysis.
Jeff Muskrat speculates that Hum CPR has an “ulterior motive.” What? That people can live where they invest in timberlands with the hope of future timber harvests? This is exactly what the Legislature intended. Why is this controversial?
Thanks for that, Bill. This is just the kind of stuff I enjoy hearing about, when I’m not hearing that my paymasters are diesel dopers, developers, and you, you big lug.
As I understand our past and present, the ad valorem taxes formerly applied to timber forced a 40-year cutting rotation on private timberlands. The 1982 Act changed that. Now I understand the urban greenies and plannies aim to impose a 75-year cutting rotation on all lands they ache to set standards for, meaning Industrial Timberland and smallholders’ TPZ. Now, I can imagine what you think of enviros’ presumption that they can manage your land and business better than you can; I wonder what you think of the management prescriptions they propose for your and my neighbors’ properties?
My own instinct is, who in their right mind would surrender management of their own timber harvest to Mark Lovelace? What’s your hit on what the GreenBeast proposes?
Thanks again for stepping up.
I don’t have a point. I suppose I should disclaim most comments with that.
Simple explanation: their $25 check bounced. Like that one “small butt” coffee roaster and his web domain.
Reserve their name. Then when they try to get the Secretary of State to register their name again, it will be in use by another corporation. They’ll have to be known as Humboldt Rural Living, Humboldt Sunshine, Humboldt Life, Humboldt TPZ Rights Group, Humbaby, or some other name besides HumCPR.
Jeeze, much ado about the Secratary Of States office losing a form. Perhaps ya’ll need to get out more. Go for a walk, kick, the dog, get a life…
The people who own huge swaths of this county are using the small landowners who own a parcel or two, as they always have, for their own gain. If Mom and Pop should be able to live on their land, does that mean that Barnum Timber should be able to sell off hundreds of 40 acre parcels and each one of those should be allowed to have a house, AND get the TPZ tax break? Why should they?
There are fewer than 20 owners of this “industrial” timberland, and we as a society have the right to say we want it to not be subdivided into a bunch of 40s. If Bill Barnum doesn’t like California law, maybe he should move to Texas.
In some counties, no structures are allowed on TPZ land whatsoever. That is not even under discussion here, depsite what Barnum wants you to think.
this is great. Where do you find this stuff??
I’ve run a corporation in California for quite a few years, so I might be able to offer a small bit of insight on the matter.
First of all, I can tell you for a fact that the Secretary of State will not suspend corporation status for a simple, bounced check. I only know this because it (didn’t) happen to me, after the Secretary of State took over six months to deposit the check I mailed to them and had moved my bank account. I got a nasty letter, had to send them a new check and $30, and all was forgiven. No suspension.
Also, there is one rather obvious omission in the listing shown above, and I’m guessing that it is the real reason why their corporate status was revoked. As of this month, corporations in California are no longer allowed to use P.O. boxes as a delivery address on file with the Secretary of State. Every corporation now has to have a “real”, physical address. So, P.O. boxes and private mailbox services are no longer allowed. They had always been allowed before, which is likely why that is the only address on file with the state. Therefore, I seriously doubt that you will find ANY corporations in the Secretary of State’s corporations list with P.O. boxes that have NOT been suspended. The suspension likely was “automatic”, on the date that the new rule went into effect. Corporations only received a single “warning” letter about the new rule beforehand, which could have been easily overlooked by anyone.
As for registration of their name, there are tons of duplicate names on file for corporations in California. Unless another corporation has a Trademark on a name, the state doesn’t care what you call your business. The only way anyone would even have legal recourse for using a similar name is if it causes “confusion in the marketplace”. Trust me, there is absolutely no value in “claim jumping” some other entity’s business name. It isn’t like an Internet domain name.
WVH
“we as a society have the right to say we want it to not be subdivided into a bunch of 40s.”
if they have 40 acre parcels, they would not need to subdivide. they already have the parcels, but the county wants to merge them so they don’t have parcels anymore.
also, they are not getting a tax break, it is a deferment of taxes until the timber is harvested. the law says any use is compatible, as long as it doesn’t SIGNIFICANTLY detract…but we’ve all heard that before. if you don’t like the laws, maybe you could move to texas?
Anonymous 7:00 am: That is totally BS and you know it. This is not about merging 40 acres parcels it is about the massive subdivision of our working timber and farm lands into 40 acre development lots.
There is a lot of money to be made and being made by these subdivisions.
With regard to TPZ – I own TPZ land and it is a fantastic tax break (handout) and anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed or lying.
Thank god our board of supervisors is still under the sway of the good solid decent people in this community rather than the good old boy developers and the diesel growers.
I never did, Longwind. We agree on many things, including your reasons for being a CPR member. Doesn’t mean that we agree on the bigger picture of CPR.
All offense, Mr. Barnum, history shows where your intentions lie: http://humboldtherald.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/barnum-timber-herbicidal-maniacs/
ANYONE who poisons our streams with herbicides deserves to be lynched. Non-violently, of course. Scratch that. How about tarred and feathered…
If you think you’re up to it, boy.
I’m suspicious about claims of taxes being paid by these huge companies. There are a lot of ways companies get out of taxes. Some pay huge tax bills, and then get it all back in subsidies. Some don’t pay at all. There was an expose’ a couple of years ago about who does and who doesn’t pay taxes. It was that study which exposed internal memos telling agents to go after the “Little People” who did not have the resources to fight back. I’ll try to find it before the lynching.
Good call William. Should squat on their P.O. Box 47.
Hey jeff, You suck!
vANYONE who poisons our streams with herbicides deserves to be lynched. Non-violently, of course. Scratch that. How about tarred and feathered…”
This is exactly the opinion idiot eco fascist like yourelf have. go watch avatar again and whack off with you eco hemp balm. Give me a break tho, cause your full of shit as usual.
Hey “Eat-er” Lay off the dope man, you need to go to bed.
Look out Estelle! The 3:00 AM Shiteater tells the CPR position better than you do!
Thanks for that temperate response, Jeff–to me.
The prob with what you said to Barnum is that his hack and squirt herbiciding is what every timber operation on the North Coast does, including those groovy timber trustafarians at Humboldt and Mendo Redwoods Company. Hack and squirt is FSC-certified sustainable.
I agree with you that’s a crock of shit, but not Barnum’s alone. So singling Bill out for what SmartWood-certified operators also do is unfair. I think it would be great to focus your ire on those hypocritical companies that present themselves as different from the Barnums, while doing the same thing. They’re easy to find–the Forest Stewardship Council will eagerly send you a list of them. Just don’t say what you want it for.
The suspension is not at all minor because, a) it could stick; and b) it shows how little the organization has its shit together. What a bunch of clods. This sort of thing should never happen.
Saturated with money yet they still can’t hire someone capable enough to keep the paperwork together. Yet you want them to run our county??? Please ….
As I recall, no one was able to access Microsoft’s websites for days on end a few years back because someone at the world’s largest software company forgot to pay their $35 annual fee for Internet domain registration of microsoft.com . Yet, you most likely rely on their software to run your computer!
Closer to home, someone at the Eureka Police Department disregarded several notices to renew their own domain name. The EPD had used the domain eurekapd.org for years. It appeared on EPD’s police reports, stationery and most official documents. Not only did EPD ignore renewal notices, they disregarded months of urgent notices warning them that their domain would be put up for auction unless they paid their bill, which was probably around $10. The domain was subsequently bought by some group in Russia, which for awhile used the site to see products such as marital aids. Now, the page is just a rip-off of EPD’s old homepage. Yet, we trust these people to protect our lives every time we dial 9-1-1.
My point is, this kinda stuff happens all the time in organizations where not everyone’s job is strictly defined, and there are always going to be situations where things fall between the cracks. Not every organization can afford a 24/7 CPA who takes his work personally, especially in government. All organizations are imperfect, because they rely on human beings to run them. That doesn’t mean that the entire organization is incapable of doing anything right. People make mistakes. It’s the human condition.
WVH
That was really funny. Thank you for that!
Longwind, I’m glad you are up on your research in regards to the Greenwashing of the Timber industry through the FSC. During the PL bankruptcy, I was rooting for the Community Forestry option…
http://humboldtforestdefense.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-green-scare.html
http://humboldtforestdefense.blogspot.com/2008/03/alert-stop-forest-liars-certified-old.html
Hack and squirt is pure laziness. Instead of hiring hungry employees to thin and maintain timber lands, the industry would rather poison our drinking water. Or create fire hazards for CDF to risk their lives fighting while using our taxes. Don’t even get me started on slides and road maintenance…
It doesn’t matter whether or not Barnum claims to be as Green as HRC or Green Dimescam. What matters is their actions. To have Billy and the Barnum timber circus on board with HumCPR doesn’t help CPR’s image.
Unless drinking 2-4-D is a part of the rural lifestyle…
Barnum hasn’t claimed anything but the right to try to make money. But Humboldt Redwoods Company is fulsomely endorsed by Humboldt’s own Big Greenery, while it poisons and clearcuts like Barnum. Can’t have it both ways, Jeff, as I politely implied above. It’s not Barnum who’s full of it here.
I think you’ll find that the professional greens who now reign over what used to be our grassroots movement are as butt-exposed in other areas as they are in this one, which you’ve half-acknowledged. Keep paying attention!
I’d think the actions of supposedly groovy-green companies, like the actions of our local green leaders, would be *even more* important than whatever the few traditional operators who still survive do. We expect better of the new kids. We don’t get much of it. The neighbors of Mendocino Redwoods Company have been saying this for more than ten years, as you may know. Green hypocrisy is a policy problem all over, which deserves your attention, because it’s causing a lot more degradation than Bill Barnum can. ‘Professionalism’ is the price of their success.
Like you, I’m a dyed-in-the-wool grassroots environmentalist. It’s lies and bullying that upset me more than anything, from any quarter. You’re ten years behind the times going after Barnum when the gang that writes the laws that protect degrading practices is reaching to take over policymaking across this county. Jeff, the new boss is same as the old boss. Now get over Barnum and meet the new boss, and have at them!
You’ll know you’re getting somewhere when they tell you you’re “Bad for the environment.”
Very much agreed, Longwind.
I was saddened by the HRC media fiasco during the PL acquisition. I was up in Berkeley while Mike Jani of HRC was having a feel good media fest with the remaining forest defenders in Nanning Creek. HRC stated publicly that they will not cut ancient trees, but that’s lip service, and market demands could change their policy. They are not “green” when it comes to clear-cuts and herbicides, but some local “enviros”(not groups, I assure you) seem to think so. I will never compromise.
It doesn’t mean that Barnum should settle for the low standards imposed by the FSC. They could be a shining example of a really green and sustainable company. But they are not.
It also doesn’t mean that Barnum(Bill) hasn’t opened up a can of worms through the endorsement of HumCPR. Greed is always the main factor when it comes to raping Mother Earth. Denial comes in second, and like greed, is inexcusable.
uh oh, the Dept. of Fish and Game and County Ag Commissioner are taking over county policymaking?!
So Jeff, when was the last time you actually sat down and had a conversation with anyone at HumCPR? Ever? Didn’t think so. Might be a thought in between some of the hate spewing.
I don’t hate anyone. But I have a right to disagree…
And it’s always easier to disagree when you haven’t even made an attempt to have an honest discussion.
I really enjoy this discussion above, as we stake out our positions. Jeff’s is simple:
“I will never compromise.”
OK. I get that.
What you are missing, Jeff, is that Barnum Timber has not cut a tree in Humboldt County in 10 years.
10. Long enough for you?
We hack and squirt for many reasons. Not the least of which is that it is safe.
Test the waters. When you find, “poison,” let me know. I won’t be holding my breath.
People in towns pee out their antibiotics, anti-depressants, hormones, birth-control chemicals, bovine specific hormones, vitamins, opioids, etc. Those tasty additions to our water supply are rarely the subject of Muskrat’s love.
Forestry herbicides are EPA and CSF-approved for hack and squirt application. In fact, for example, the State of Virginia PAYS landowners to do “hack and squirt” application of herbicides. It is good for the people of Virginia.
Herbicides are chemically-derived growth hormones that induce vascular growth that exceeds the capacity of the hacked (girdled) trees. These organic compounds are undetectable in 14 days as they break down in sunlight and moisture. Muskrat would prefer the labor-intensive approach to removal of less preferred tree species, but the cost to do so, and the incidental damage to preferred species is not part of his thinking.
But this is not relevant to one who, “… will never compromise.” Clear enough.
So, why, Jeff, do you post here? Do you just want it to be unreasonably expensive to manage timberlands?
I think one of the best benefits to our community is for families to hold lands for decades in semi-wilderness condition. Every parcel of real property in this county that is held for long-term timber management is beneficial to the timber economy, wildlife, and our society. These lands can be held with little management, else they can be held with intensive timber management modalities that increase the capacity of the land to produce fiber over a long time horizon (decades).
Some prefer wildlife values or open space concerns. I am not clear about what Jeff values.
And, finally, Jeff, if you really want to talk about these topics, look in the phone book and call me. I will be happy to meet you and discuss these matters face-to-face (rather than here or on Facebook). Or, you may prefer to see me lynched (non-violently, to be sure).
Your call.
“People in towns pee out their antibiotics, anti-depressants, hormones, birth-control chemicals, bovine specific hormones, vitamins, opioids, etc. Those tasty additions to our water supply are rarely the subject of Muskrat’s love.”
Only in a world where water runs uphill!
Barnum Timber hasn’t cut a tree in 10 years because they were all clearcut long ago and there are none left to cut down. Great way to manage in a “semi-wilderness condition” Bill.
But you’re right about one thing–at least if you don’t sell it all off bit by bit, the trees will grow back and maybe the salmon will survive.
yeah but if Bill and company have their way, they’ll sell it all off to growers of a different kind. If only they could all be the land stewards they claim to be. But this is 2010, not 1980…
And if one thing’s for certain, it’s that our county will keep seeing subdivided timberland to hide diesel grows in until . . . November? Actually, not even that long. The poster subidivision for these abuses was approved by the county five years ago, but the hand-wringing and finger-pointing has only just started.
I realize it’s traditional government policy to prepare for the last war, while losing the present one. The ten-year momentum of our anti-pot-plantation policies, only now arriving at the policy implementation stage– –now that the need for it is evaporating– –is typical. Is it sensible? Is there any justification beyond the superstitions of green fundees that their economic self-interest is everyone’s? The rest of us could use an open economy, now more than ever. Museumizing rural Humboldt is in no one else’s interest, IMHO.
the hippie homestead culture of Humboldt is already a mothballed memory with rare exceptions. too many people at the party always ruins it. it’s like when the Grateful Dead got “popular” and the scene went to hell in a handbasket.
the last dead show I ever went to featured a young woman puking behind me on the concrete floor, while her friend explained that it was her first time doing heroin. it’s a relevant analogy. now we have 20 years olds in $40,000 trucks hauling around 55 gallon drums of diesel, running generators 24-7. the rural dream!
So so depressingly true.
Yes, but that’s their money dream, not a rural dream. Will it be there to dream and scheme in the future, after whatever legalization turns out to be? That’s the point. Planning is for the future, not the past. Long-overdue change is at our doorsteps. We should plan for dynamism, not dead museums. The Knights of Toyota have been driven out of the woods before (though I hate to give CAMP their due credit from back in the mid- to late-80s). Quite simply, when the money isn’t easy anymore the diesel dudes will go away.
We who aren’t puking deadheads will remain behind.
Like anonymous 8:56 stated, it’s hard to cut what you don’t have. Unless you are considering getting into the firewood business. Might be a good move for you…
Mr. Barnum, if your company had taken a sustainable approach to forestry, you wouldn’t have thoudands of acres of pesky hardwoods that sprung up after you slashed and burned your inventory. Then you wouldn’t need herbicides to manage your mistakes.
Then you continue by stating that our town water is already full of drugs(I doubt that, it is a urban condition in reclaimed water systems). Are you saying that it won’t matter if a little 2-4-D(an agent orange derivative) gets into people’s well and spring water?
Is that what protecting the “rural lifestyle” is all about?
If herbicides are so safe, why don’t you drink them? I think we all need a demostration. Take a bottle of those chemically
derived growth hormones and put it in your kid’s cool-aid.
Jeff, you are full of misconceptions, too many to reply to here in full. Let’s take 2:
“Mr. Barnum, if your company had taken a sustainable approach to forestry, you wouldn’t have thoudands (sic) of acres of pesky hardwoods that sprung up after you slashed and burned your inventory. Then you wouldn’t need herbicides to manage your mistakes.”
Hardwoods did not “spring up” after slashing and burning. Nope. The stands were naturally mixed hardwoods and softwoods. Modern forest management includes the removal of competing species. You don’t like that, clear enough, but it is scientifically acceptable and the rules allow it.
Jeff, you also contend that 2,4D is being used on our forests. It is not on ours.
But do you know, Jeff, that the major site for spraying of 2,4D is? Family lawns in residential neighborhoods. 2,4D is universally available at lawn and garden centers, hardware stores, etc. for use by anyone, anytime. Think of Weed-B-Gone, Brush Killer, etc. But I get that you don’t like that.
One tested and licensed herbicide we use in forestry is also tested and authorized for spraying on open water riparian and pond environments because it kills algae while leaving fish and invertebrates safe. We do not spray open water, but pond managers do.
Some people are universally opposed to herbicide use. I understand. About a year ago this topic popped up at “Ernie’s Place,” where someone named Ben complained about herbicide use on madrones. Ernie replied:
“I agree Ben. It always bothers me see waste. Especially when it is something vital and growing. But I was raised on a ranch, and soon learned the difference between a weed and a food plant. I learned which branches had to be pruned out of a tree to keep the fruit bearing wood providing us with the food we needed. I learned which plants had to be thinned and sucker shucked to keep the corn crop growing good. By extension I understand why they thin the Tan Oak and Madrone.
We think of a forest as a wild and growing place, but the timber companies think of the forest as cropland. I understand to a certain extent. Same as raising animals for food. I don’t like killing critters, but I haven’t stop craving the protein that they provide. So until we think of a way to grow timber in a way that allows all the plants to live, we will probably see thinning. Or as the timber companies call it “Conifer release”.
The world is not a nice place.”
#2: Your comments on our timber inventory are quite silly. Go on Google Earth and take a look. We are proud of the forests we have cared for over the last 50-70 years. One anon claimed above that “they were all clearcut long ago and there are none left to cut down.”
What a sadly misinformed statement. By rule for more than 35 years all harvested areas are re-stocked with plantings and all timber owners must prove that the new stocking “took” and is established after 5 years. Our forests are well-stocked and thriving.
I understand that you do not like what we are doing as forest managers. We simply disagree. But false statements are not helpful.
I just come out of this feeling sorry for poor Muskrat.
I just come out of it feeling sorry for all of us. Fish and rivers included.
Thank you Bill.
I am well aware of Weed and Feed and it’s usage in suburban hell. I have worked multiple aspects of “Lawn and Garden”, including stocking shelves of nurseries with a large array of herbicides and pesticides. 2-4-D is in all brands of weed and feed, but it is not safe: “The best known herbicide is 2,4-D kills dandelions banned in Sweden. It is not listed on those little WARNING PESTICIDE USE signs although 2,4-D accounts for one quarter of Canada’s herbicide consumption. It was part of the chemical compound known as Agent Orange that was used as a defoliant in Vietnam and left a legacy of cancers, miscarriages and birth defects.”http://jamesbredin.tripod.com/numberfour/id29.html
I wish I knew better back then, because I stocked these shelves without a respirator. Sometimes there would be a broken bottle or bag. You pop open the box, and the dust hits your face. All of the non-organic products have warning labels, such as “don’t inhale”, “don’t get it in your eyes”, “don’t ingest”, and even, “avoid contact with skin”. As for 2-4-D, yes, people put it on their lawns. It’s “easier” than pulling weeds, just like hack and squirt is easier(and cheaper) than thinning hardwoods.
But kids play on those lawns. And families drink from your watersheds.
You mentioned that Barnum’s herbicides break down in fourteen days after sunlight exposure. I would assume that a major component of your “herbicide brew” is Glyphosate or similar salt based herbicide, aka “round-up”, but what you are using it for requires a much stronger dose than the home version. Aside from the health risks, have you ever considered the fact that your trees may become “resistant”? http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/gmo-crops-super-weed-time-bomb-explodes/
Or that Glyphosate could cause birth defects for families within your watersheds?
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GHCCBD.php
My point is that for years industry has developed these products that are actually byproducts of industry chemical processes. It’s easier and more profitable to lobby in order to have these chemicals labeled as safe for the environment through consumer use, than it would be to get a permit to dump them. Not only do these companies(often petrol-chemical orientated) make a profit from selling hazardous waste, but they also don’t have to pay disposal fees.
Remember how long brake pads and shoes used to last? The old asbestos types? Now we have organic materials used in brakes, and a bunch of retired brake mechanics with lung cancer and emphysema. But 20, 30, 50, even 100 years ago, hazards like asbestos were considered to be technological breakthroughs, and safe for consumers. How many different “products” like this are out there? Too many to list. And will we ever really know?
Back then, even the surgeon general smoked cigarettes…
Barnum is not the only timber company out there using herbicides. Even green washed HRC uses herbicides, along with “Green” Diamond and SPI. The FSC promotes it.
Should we debate on what is ethically and morally right, or what you and everyone else is getting away with? If everyone else jumped off that bridge, does that mean you should as well?
Thanks, Jeff.
At least your tone is more civil, and I appreciate that. We have our differences, but I will never make personal threats against you. I know you did not mean to threaten me, it was just “blog talk,” but this more civil exchange is appreciated.
As for the herbicide issue, I think the forestry herbicide most frequently applied of late is Arsenal, by BASF Chemical. It is a weak acid, and when used in hte “hack and squirt” method, it is sprayed in small quantities into the cut cambium layer of a tree, requiring very small quantities per acre of application.
Arsenal is widely reported on the web; check for the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from BASF and other reports. This is the herbicide I referred to above that is applied to riparian areas and ponds with no adverse effect on fish or invertebrates when applied in prescribed quantities. It kills vegetation by interrupting a single enzyme required for plant growth, but has no demonstrable adverse effects on animals or fish, etc. It does not leach in the soils.
Thus, it is not later found in neighboring water/wells/streams, etc.
Timber managers do evaluate the risks and benefits of herbicides versus manual release (hand cutting). On balance, it is not just cheaper, though it is, to apply herbicides in cuts of bark, than to cut down the competing hardwoods. The cutting down can damage the young conifers we hope to save. And cut hardwoods frequently sprout anew from the stumps, and, using the same root and vascular system of the cut stem, they grow back vigorously and can shortly over-top the conifers anyway. This means hand cutting is less effective, more expensive, and requires multiple entries to the forest. On balance, these effective but safe herbicide treatments are favored.
They are not popular with some people and groups, but the evidence is that they are safe, applied in small quantities, and are more effective over-all than hand release.
Thank you Bill. This is getting pretty interesting, down to the nuts and bolts of the issue. I hope you excuse my hostility from the beginning and understand that this is an extremely passionate issue for me. What can I say, I love life. All forms of it…
Bill said:
I remembered a post regarding the controversy behind Habitat brand herbicide usage for Purple Loosestrife in the Eel:
“Adverse effects found in laboratory animals after chronic exposure to imazapyr include the following: fluid accumulation in the lungs of female mice, kidney cysts in male mice, abnormal blood formation in the spleen of female rats, an increase in the number of brain and thyroid cancers in male rats, and an increase in the number of tumors and cancers of the adrenal gland in female rats.
Imazapyr can persist in soil for over a year. Persistence studies suggest that imazapyr residues damage plants at concentrations that are not detectable by laboratory analysis. Imazapyr moves readily in soil. It has contaminated surface and ground water following aerial and ground forestry applications.”http://humboldtforestdefense.blogspot.com/2007/07/habitat-brand-herbicide-toxicity.html
The herbicide “Arsenal” in your reference to Barnum’s hack and squirt herbicide of choice is composed of Imazapyr, isopropylamine salt, 27.6 % which also is in “Habitat” as a isopropylamine salt at 28.7%. Not much of a difference between product concentrations.
(By the way, don’t you love these names, like “Habitat”. They all “sound” so safe and friendly…)
According to CATS, “Imazapyr is highly mobile and quite persistent in the environment, two factors that contribute to the ability of this herbicide to cause long-term impacts on non-target plants near treated sites” and “Laboratory studies show that imazapyr is essentially stable under most environmental conditions
and is not degraded by hydrolysis, aerobic or anaerobic soil degradation, or by aerobic and
anaerobic aquatic metabolism.
http://www.alt2tox.org/pdfs/Kegley-Feb08.pdf
“Imazapyr remains toxic and mobile in soil for up to a year and a half…” http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/tolowadunes.htm
Bill said:
We can agree on the first part of your statement. They are not popular with some people and groups.
It may be true that the corporations that produce and sell these products have the support of the EPA. But when was the last time the EPA failed us? I would say each and every minute of the day.
It simply doesn’t mean that these chemmies are safe. It just means Imazapyr has yet to be banned…
Thanks, Jeff.
I think we can finally put a bow on this thread.
You are not wrong, not by a long shot. You affiliate with the organic viewpoint. Clearly, that is the conservative approach – do not harm.
I affiliate with the production model. Most agricultural efforts are aimed at maximizing production. But I concede that involves trade-offs. A managed forest has less plant diversity (though it still has much to offer) than an un-managed one, just as an Iowa corn field has less diversity than a Great Plains meadow, or a Central Valley rice paddy has less than a pasture.
Most TPZ lands managed for timber on the Northcoast are managed with herbicides in order to “improve” the forests’ conifer growth. Some TPZ parcels are managed less intensively, and maintain more of the natural diversity, including tan oaks and madrones. That seems to me a good thing to have in the mix. Conifers still grow on those unmanaged sites, but may not be the focus of the owners.
That is why I do not see anything wrong with allowing residences on TPZ so people who agree with you, Jeff, can choose the more organic approach and maintain their forests with more natural diversity. Still, those of us who manage our lands to maximize the production of forest products work with the land, the natural capacities in it, and with herbicides, to the end of keeping forest products affordable (which contributes to affordable housing with wood framing – something I wish Haiti could enjoy).
We are confident that the very small quantities of herbicides that are applied in hack and squirt practices are not a threat to people, animals, fish or invertebrates. We respect that you do not agree.
Sulfonylureas and glycophosphate don’t seem to be as useful in invasive plant management than that imazapyr stuff. I mean, granted, none of that stuff is possibly good, it kills plants. But, in some cases, I would think the damage done by the poison may be less than the damage done by the invaders… depending on the application.
In the case of conifer control, the herbicide lays a death cloud on ground cover. This is a different means to and end situation from targeting invasive plants, in my opinion.
This study on this “weed tree” management stuff shows clearly that regeneration is stifled by the application of sprays regardless of if some frogs survive or whatever the fake measure is.
I would think that ain’t no good because even if animals survive, they got nothing to eat or nest in for future generations.
Thank you Bill. I’m glad you see both sides of the issue with herbicides. I also understand the intense labor that would go into manual management.
Bill Barnum Says:
I suppose the market demand for timber as well as the necessity to clear an immediate profit must be a consideration in choosing between sustainable forestry and the current model used by the FSC. I hope for the sake of our forests that there could be a balance between both. But not a compromise…
Desertification is a real issue that timber lands under stress from clear-cuts(even aged management), erosion and lack of diversity are subject to after multiple harvest successions.
That is my main concern with the rural land grab. Not everyone who wants a chunk is as eco-groovy as we would hope. Sub-dividing will bring in more demand on the currently taxed water tables, and vegetation removal(including timber harvesting and home site clearing) will dry out the lands, add pollution to groundwater, and encroach upon wildlife and people who are simply trying to live in seclusion.
I would love to be able to afford a piece of land for me and my partner. Build a cabin. Get some chickens and goats. Live simply and sustainably. Right now, land like that(what CPR is concerned about)is fairly expensive. But we all know why, people want to grow pot, which taxes water tables and pollutes creeks and streams. And it’s hard to find a smaller chunk with all of the huge timber/ag parcels.
Imagine if HumCPR could(while pot is not quite fully legal and land prices are “high”) push through Plan C and subdivide all of those ranches? Can you imagine how much money could be made by Big Landowners?
Whether you think they have the right to is another issue. I am strictly concerned about environmental issues. Our survival on this planet supersedes selfish short-termed thinking in regards to our “rights” and “ownership” of something we cannot take with us to the grave. But we sure do trash the planet for future generations, and greed clouds our judgment as far as thinking about the future. Not ours. Everyone else after us.
It’s no secret why HumCPR exists, or why there is so much controversy. It’s the driving force that has been a human ailment and affliction since the dawn of time. It’s greed.
If HumCPR’s mission was to protect a “rural lifestyle”, they would be fighting to keep The Rural Lifestyle
Rural…
Mr. Nice Says:
I wonder what the effects are on mycorrhizal organisms on soils affected by herbicide drift.
Trees are very dependent upon the symbiotic relationships these organisms provide between like and especially unlike trees.
Could this one of the many causes for the necessity of the industry to use chemical fertilizers on heavily abused timber lands?
Jeff, you open another can of worms with that. Mycorrhizal organisms aren’t in any danger themselves as they need a far bigger dose of herbicide to die off than is used on plants. Reason being simple: fungus have very little response to plant growth hormones compared with plants. It makes sense… if you sprayed human growth hormone on conifers, you wouldn’t expect a Mark McGwire tree.
However, there is a synergistic effect:
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19952302344
You see, since mycorrhizal organisms cause root systems to absorb fluids more readily, they absorb poison more readily. The research into this is not little known to plant biologists, it is much of the reason why there is a healthy demand for herbicide-resistant soybean varieties. As soybeans require mycorrhizal root colonization, a soybean not resistant to herbicides is toast where other crops could tolerate the same dose.
Thank you for that.
You are truly a wealth of information, Mr. Nice.
From my standpoint, spraying to kill off invasive plants is a matter of conserving native species. Forest management folks try to apply the same logic to “weed trees” and it may like the same thing on the surface. However, this form of herbicide treatment isn’t to conserve species at all, it is to conserve dollars.