The Times-Standard is apparently running a marathon of articles on the Sequoia Park Zoo. Today features article #3, but Sunday’s editorial declared the zoo “sacred.”
But the editorial failed to mention that T-S managing editor Kimberly Wear is on the zoo board of directors — a glaring omission. Did Wear write the editorial? Did she abstain from participating in its creation? Nobody knows since the T-S glossed over these noteworthy details.
Maybe the T-S will clarify in tomorrow’s fourth installment of zoo articles.
Another point of interest: Eureka City Councilman Frank Jager is also on the zoo board.
What Heraldo failed to mention is that the managing editor doesn’t necessarily dictate the focus of an editorial. There is a publisher, you know, and what the publisher says is gold.
Oh, but to state the obvious, if Kimberly conceived and wrote the editorial (was she managing editor the last time the newspaper took the exact same position? Hmm, probably not)… anyhow, this isn’t a news report, it’s an opinion, and Kimberly cannot be donked for having an opinion. It’s the whole point of an editorial.
Did Larry disclose his opinion of Arkley — and his leaning on the subject of zoos in general — before falsely pitting our zoo against public safety? Nope.
Good lard but you people love to talk about Arkley.
Zoos are an abomination.Our culture treats the earth and everything on and in it as here for our use and abuse. We are starting to see what that has brought us to. Zoos are symbolic of this userous attitude. Taking children to see animals in cages tells them that animals are simply for our amusement and that they have no feelings.When I read letters about Bill the chimp from people who say he was a “friend”, he was “loved” and will be missed I want to upchuck. That poor animal lived in a small cage with none of his own kind, in horrible isolation. Love? Friend? I don’t think so.
Just stating the obvious. The two people don’t like each other, and here Larry is pitting the zoo (something everyone knows Arkley supports) against public safety even though there’s no reason to pit the two against each other. Or, maybe Larry just hates the very idea of zoos, not ours in particular. Budget cuts could come from anywhere in the city. Honest discussion would be nice.
Why not hand it over to Arkley free and clear for new office space?
The spider monkey cage would be a perfect executive office suite for Security National.
The cuts to fire and police will be real and have nothing to do with Arkley’s feelings about the zoo.
Hey maybe this will nudge Arkley into paying his tab which he owes to the city so that city coffers are less strapped and some leverage is given to the notion that the zoo doesn’t have to be on the chopping block.
how about turning the animals loose and putting various law breakers in those cages for a week at a time..We could all see whose been bad.. :)
You obviously know nothing about how newspapers are structured. The publisher has little input on editorial content. That is what the managing editor is for. The publisher’s office is downstairs with the advertising staff. The managing editor’s office is in the newsroom.
The managing editor, the publisher, the city editor and one or two reporters make up a small committee that is known as the editorial board. This committee decides by a vote what to editorialize on and what position to take. The managing editor is the principal writer of the newspaper’s unsigned editorials.
To protect the integrity of the newspaper, Wear should at least disclose to the Times-Standard’s readers that she is a member of the zoo foundation board. To comply with traditional journalism ethics, she have a policy of abstaining from voting on editorials involving the zoo and she should not write editorials on this issue. Wear should also disclose this policy to her readers. Otherwise it confuses the newspaper’s readership over whether the Times-Standard is the voice of the community or of a single special interest.
They aren’t called publishorials.
The publisher can, of course, fire the editor.
Elected officials and even reporters & editors (maybe even Heraldo himself?) are not little robots that go into “off” mode once they get home.
They are involved in civic groups all the time & we should want them to be. There is no conflict of interest as long as those duties are volunteer & not paid. They are not enriching their coffers if they vote for or against the zoo.
Not necessarily true. The Times-Standard is owned by a large newspaper corporation. Wear’s real boss is a regional editorial manager, not Dave Kuda, the publisher.
True, Hi Fi, but you’re missing the point. It’s great that Kim Wear is involved in the community and is sitting on the board of a city institution that obviously means a lot to her.
But as a journalist, she is bound by a code of ethics. When the zoo becomes a political issue on which the newspaper has taken a clear stand, she should at the very minimum disclose to readers her position on the foundations board of directors. To ensure readership faith in the integrity of the newspaper as an objective and unbiased voice of the community, it would be wise for her to abstain from voting on or writing editorials involving the zoo, and she should disclose this to readers as well.
Otherwise, it becomes confusing when an unsigned editorial supporting the zoo appears in the paper. Is the Times-Standard a voice of the community or for one special interest?
No, not really. The order isn’t 1) The Zoo, 2) Police, 3) Fire. Cuts can come from anywhere in the city. Sure, the general fund is probably what they’re looking at, but the general fund is a lot bigger than those three things, and when you get down to brass tacks, any nook and cranny of the city should be fair game.
Which apply to news reporting. This is an editorial. She didn’t report on the issue. So you’re saying she should disclose that she is much better informed on the issue than the rest of us? Interesting, but not relevant unless she’s presenting herself as an impartial reporter, which again, is not the case here.
It’s funny reading people who have no concept of media ethics try to opine about it intelligently.
Kim Wear supervises the reporters. This is not about Kim Wear anyway. It’s about protecting the newspaper’s reputation as a unbiased voice of the community.
Imagine if James Faulk, who as the Times-Standard’s city editor is one step below Kim in newsroom command, were to join the Humboldt Baykeeper board of directors, as a volunteer, and was assigned to write an editorial expressing the newspaper’s opinion siding with Baykeeper. How would you feel about that?
Granted, we don’t normally think of the zoo foundation as a political entity, like you might expect an environmental group to be. However, in this city, in this political climate, in these times, the zoo foundation has become a political issue. That doesn’t mean Kim Wear should step down from the zoo foundation board. I applaud her for her involvement in the community.
But she should acknowledge the zoo foundation has become a political issue. And to protect the newspaper’s reputation, she should disclose her involvement and ensure readers that she will remove herself from the editorial process when it comes to this issue.
I think Kim will do the right thing.
That situation would be no different IF James Faulk didn’t report on anything related to Bay Keeper. A journalist is allowed to participate in community organizations AND be a reporter as long as s/he doesn’t report on the organizations for which s/he is a member (and even then, in some limited human interest cases, it’s totally appropriate). You seem to be confused about the distinction between reporting and editorials.
If you’re all of a sudden going to talk disclosures, they would have to happen all over the place. This is a small community. The theater reviewer at the Journal is paid by HSU’s theater department as a publicist. There are other examples that are far more direct than this Kimberly thing, which is a non-issue to begin with. You’re just curdled that the editorial differs from your viewpoint.
I don’t have an opinion about the zoo, but I do have strong feelings about journalistic integrity.
If anyone who contributes to an editorial supporting Operation X is a member of the Board of Directors of Operation X, it is unethical to not reveal that to the editorial’s readership. In a functional world, it would be a firing offense.
Larry’s idea to put this on the ballet will be voted on by the City Council, right?
And therefore never writes about HSU productions.
+1 for 12:31′s comments.
12:54 has it all WRONG. If an editorial supports my point of view, it’s ethical, no matter who is on the board of what. If Kim Wear were on the board of “Paykeeper” (ha ha ha, get it?) and the article was in support of halting my Rob-Rob’s project, it would be “unethical.”
Morally relativist hugs!
So, who they runnin’ against Larry?
Larry is putting on a ballet?
Either way, he’s a shoo-in for re-election.
I cann’t beleive that Eurerka dose not have a better paper than the TS. I mean , the arcata eye and this site is way more imformative. Iam not expecting excellents,maybe just a little less fluff. It reminds me of this free rag I use to deliver ,except that rag was readable
Who is there in Ward 1 who could possibly challenge Larry Glass?
Ward 3 has at least one very strong candidate for the progressive side, who came within 30 votes of winning the seat four years ago.
Ward 5 is wide open right now.
In any case, there will be a progressive majority on the Eureka City Council in December. Larry and Linda will have at least a third progressive vote, if not a fourth, on the five-member council.
So the trogs will say the progs wanna close the zoo, and the progs will say we need more cops now? Eureka!
Frank Jager is also on the Zoo board. He should recuse himself on voting for any budget issues regarding the zoo. While it’s true that he himself does not profit from the zoo, he ia at least partially responsible for its budget and income from the city.
If he wants to fundraise for the zoo from the public or from businesses, I would applaud his efforts. Then there’s the zoo foundation which, so far, has taken almost NO responsibilty for the cost of running the operation. Now they parade the $100,000 gate receipts but fail to mention that at least half that amount was used to staff the entrance position (toll taker) and for related bookkeeping. 50 grand won’t feed the monkeys, let alone run the zoo.
If each Eurekan, man, woman, and child, really wants to subsidized EACH visitor to the zoo for at least $10 per visit, let them say so at the ballot box.
Eureka’s zoo was unaccredited for years and seemed to provide education and entertainment. Now we’re being forced to join some higher calling? Remember the Prairie Dogs? They were fun but they’re gone now. I have to believe that, if necessary, the zoo folks could cut back a lot and still provide a fun place to visit. Notice that EVERY other department in the City has taken major cuts and furloughs EXCEPT the zoo. Time to pony up lads (pun intended).
Nonsense Mouse and you’re only saying that because your opinion is different from Jaeger.
Perhaps the editor should disclose she is a member of the board when writing her editorial, but Jaeger has every right in the world to vote on the issue.
Once again, he is not personally benefiting from his vote.
But nice try anyway.
And how many other things does the city run for the benefit of its citizens that are required to be self sufficient? Does the police department collect enough fines to pay for its budget? The fire department? Parks & rec dept?
If Jager is a member of the zoo foundation board of directors, he should abstain from voting on whether to the question of future zoo funding to the voters. It’s the only ethical thing to do.
Those advocating cutting police and fire department personnel in favor of the zoo, should call a zookeeper the next time they’re the victim of a crime or if their house catches fire.
And maybe Rob Arkley should pay the zoo’s annual operating budget. His “improvements” have helped make the zoo too expensive for the city to operate.
Arkley suckered the city, created a white elephant, just like sub-prime lenders indebetted homebuyers for more than they could possibly repay.
Perhaps the city can declare the property surplus and near worthless due to contamination from years of exotic animal poop. Then our “community minded philantropist” can purchase the property for pennies, propose a cheap “capping the compost” cleanup, and erect a Wal-Mart and historical zoo plaque.
If Larry will be on the ballet, I feel certain he is a shoe-in for re-election.
A ballet shoe! Get it?
High Finance
Are you serious? Do you really want the Fire and Police Departments to make it their mission to be self sufficient by forcing people to pay for their services through other avenues besides the cities tax base?
Well maybe he’s not going far enough. The zoo is a joy to the community, and should be subsidized by Eureka. The firefighters and police officers are a bunch of over paid government fat cats! Let’s put public safety into the PRIVATE SECTOR. That would save the city some $$$
Let’s see how this works…The fire department becomes a private entity and if you want a fire/medical response, you should pay a monthly fee. Now, the current budget is $5,783,952 divide that by 28000 (population) then 12 (months in a year) you get every person paying $17 a month. Not bad! For police protection $ 9,964,871/28000/12= $29 a month, thats the deal of a century!
$46 a month for each person to have fire/medical and police protection in Eureka. No wonder those Police Officers and Firefighters are so OVERPAID. I mean come on, $46 a month. And for what? They don’t even make anything or offer any services that would enable the Depts to pay for themselves. They just sit back and suck on the golden government tit!
We really need to take Hifi’s advise. Lose the terrible government subsidized public safety, costing us tens of dollars a month, and replace it with privitized public safety.
That way we can have plenty of dough to pay for the really important stuff, like zoo’s and skateparks!
BTW-If your coming from out of town, you will have buy for these services on a case by case basis!
Yes, 5:58, we get it. Mike Buettner and Heraldo got it, too … three and a half hours ago.
Hows about Murl Harpham step up to the plate and retire. I bet he’s the most overpaid vehicle abatement officer in the state of California. His pay/benifits could pay for two police officers (or save freezing two police officer positions). But alas, his ego is probably too big to figure out that it’s time to go!
Nice, 659 – Age discrimination.
Not age, just ability! What does he actually do at EPD. Has anyone bothered to check. He’s paid at a Lt. but all he does is write tickets for camping in public, and get rid of abandoned vehicle’s! Not age, just the solid facts of what he does (or doesn’t do).
Nice 704-it’s good to see you up this late murl. Are you drinking your “Ensure” before bed?
Discrimination is discrimination. Pray tell, how do you actually know what he does at EPD, 709?
BTW, 709, Abandoned vehicle abatement fees are one of the few revenue generating activites at the PD.
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967, Pub. L. No. 90-202, 81 Stat. 602 (Dec. 15, 1967), codified as Chapter 14 of Title 29 of the United States Code, 29 U.S.C. § 621 through 29 U.S.C. § 634 (ADEA), prohibits employment discrimination against persons 40 years of age or older in the United States (see 29 U.S.C. § 631(a)). The law also sets standards for pensions and benefits provided by employers and requires that information about the needs of older workers be provided to the general public.
In Kimel v. Florida Bd. of Regents (528 U.S. 62, 2000), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the ADEA did not apply to employment practices of state governments.
Mandatory retirement based on age is permitted for:
Executives over age 65 in high policy-making positions who are entitled to a pension over a minimum yearly amount.
739, Murl needs to go. You might love to think of a police officer who works until he’s 100, but I believe the community would rather have 2 new officers who practice modern policing methods than 1 old Lt. who finds cars to tow.
Also, if he want’s to continue to generate money for the city towing cars, there is plenty of money out there for reserve officer’s at EPD. Why should the city continue to pay for his medical when he is way past the age of 65 and entitled to medicare? He’s been paying into the medicare fund for 60 years already! Why should the city pay for his retirement when he has more than enough retirement in 2 systems to go out with a lot of $$$
RETIRE MURL!!!
Regarding age discrimination: If the person is employed in public safety, they can without violating
age discriminiation laws be retired.
Regarding the zoo: Eureka has the crime statistics
for a city of 125,000 people. You may thank the
non-profits, the county welfare and bad city management for this. Until they are reformed the crime rate will remain the same. We need every police officer and every method of enforcement available.
How much is the zoo’s budget? All I have read about
is they are now selling tickets. I don’t see any
marketing plan to raise money. They are amateurs.
Keep the petting zoo open. Close the rest.
Kim Wear has been writing pro-zoo editorials with regularity ever since the Arkley acolyte-dominated zoo board cannily named her to be among its members. Like Virginia Bass and her unacknowledged gifts of free flights to Republican events around the state aboard Air Arkley, Wear would never have acknowledged this extremely salient and inappropriate board membership if she had not been publically called out on it.
Kim Wear: shame on you! Your otherwise high journalistic standards have now been sullied by this large and unseemly stain. Are you going to step up and do the right thing?
Right Mouse, keeping the zoo open is a conspiracy that Robin Arkley started years ago.
I think your tin-foil hat is on too tight & is restricting the flow of blood to your brain.
” large and unseemly stain “?
Larry’s idea to put this on the ballet will be voted on by the City Council, right?
No, that only happens if he wants to put on an opera.
Has anybody noted the irony in the political discussion that a liberal is calling for a budget cut, with a program conservatives might usually consider “non-essential” government service being supported by conservatives?
Well, I just did in case nobody else noticed.
Budget cuts will happen, it’s just a matter of where. It’s certainly unusual to see the conservatives swinging that ax at the cops.
Both of Eric Kirk’s points have been addressed in the thread.
Glass, is a failure at public office just like most radical liberals. Jumping on any issue to up his own favorable rating. isn’t working anymore in the city,county, state,or nation. He’s a bum on a mission.
“Anonymous Says:
February 15, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Let’s see how this works…The fire department becomes a private entity and if you want a fire/medical response, you should pay a monthly fee. Now, the current budget is $5,783,952 divide that by 28000 (population) then 12 (months in a year) you get every person paying $17 a month. Not bad! For police protection $ 9,964,871/28000/12= $29 a month, thats the deal of a century!
$46 a month for each person to have fire/medical and police protection in Eureka.”
$562 per year per person, man, woman and child… a family of four $2,249.83 per year, a city block with ten houses, average family of four $22,498.32 per year. Seems like a lot of money to me.
It’s all how you say it.
No wonder alleys, sidewalks, street sweeping, parks, and recreation all have to take a back seat.
You have to wonder why Larry Glass is pretending the cuts have to come from the zoo or the police & fire departments?
It is obvious he doesn’t like the zoo & is putting up this false choice in order to strike out at the zoo.
“It’s all in how you say it.”
Right, just say that you would like to see public safety cut! At least be honest. Just say you don’t want a progressive police department with a funtioning POP team. Just say you don’t want to see a fully staffed fire department.
Just sayin..say what you mean.
Sure HiFi. And he kicks puppies and orphans too. What is obvious is that you hate Glass and would criticize anything he is for, including maintaining current funding levels for public safety.
“It is obvious he doesn’t like the zoo & is putting up this false choice in order to strike out at the zoo.”
BS.
# Anonymous Says:
February 16, 2010 at 12:09 pm
“It’s all in how you say it.”
Right, just say that you would like to see public safety cut! At least be honest. Just say you don’t want a progressive police department with a funtioning POP team. Just say you don’t want to see a fully staffed fire department.
Just sayin..say what you mean.
What I am saying is that I would like to see some balance in the general fund… like most people my home is my biggest investment. I want my community to have clean streets, alleys without giant potholes, clean parks, safe playground equipment, a historic downtown area with nice landscape areas and a zoo and maybe a public flower garden.
If all we are concerned about is making sure that public safety has all that they want… than other things that make our community beautiful and safe have to take a back seat.
“All that they want”??? Just sayin, are you sayin that just the police and fire department want to see public safety as a priority? I think you might be slightly mistaken. If it’s between alley’s with potholes or the Fire Department having enough staffing to respond if my family or I have a medical emergency, I think I’ll choose the latter. If having streetsweepers is at the cost of having a slower response time to a life and death emergency, I’ll sweep my own front curb.
During the earthquake, were you worried about cracks in the road, street sweepers or about fire and police making sure everyone was safe?
It’s fine to cut public safety, if your priorities lie elsewhere. But cutting 2-3 positions in either department will have definate repercussions.
Both of Eric Kirk’s points have been addressed in the thread.
Okay, but were they addressed with quite as much panache?
Why doesn’t Eureka have the Redevelopment Agency repay some of the Halverson loan – with the interest accruing for years the loan is about $6 million I believe.
Maybe they could just make installment payments now and then – $1 or 2 million at a time.
“Anonymous Says:
February 16, 2010 at 1:02 pm
During the earthquake, were you worried about cracks in the road, street sweepers or about fire and police making sure everyone was safe?”
I don’t know if you noticed but following the earthquake a lot of people were out helping… Public Works was also out making sure that the water and sewer lines were intact, engineers were out volunteering their expertise to determine which building were safe that’s what communities do.
I’m not “anti” Public Safety … I’m just saying that 57.8% of the general fund for public safety does not leave much money available for the other things that make a community a beautiful and safe place to live.
Talk to the folks in Orick, Orleans, Zenia, Whitethorn, etc about “public saftey”. They have no sheriffs and volunteer fire departments. Life goes on.
Just Sayin-
You’re absolutely correct. It doesn’t leave a lot of money for the things that make a community beautiful. It’s sad. This year, I was hoping to put up a new deck, but in this economy, with my wage going down and prices going up, I’ve got make sure I pay for the essentials (gas, power, mortgage, health insurance, ect.). After those are taken care of, I’ll see what I can do with what I’ve got left over. Unfortunately, I will probably have to settle for new lawn furniture this year.
Oldphart is having brain farts. He left out Briceland, Shelter Cove, Bridgeville, Briceland, Kneeland and lots of other wide spots in the road which combined don’t have a population even close to Eureka’s. They all have law enforcement provided by a sheriff’s dept. and fire fighting provided by CDF and supplemented by fire departments from all over the state when needed.
And NONE of them have a zoo. :)
HiFi puts it perfectly. Larry Glass opposes Rob-Rob, Jesus, apple pie and the zoo.
Hugs out to HiFi!
“Plain Jane Says:
February 16, 2010 at 4:17 pm
And NONE of them have a zoo.”
Right Plain, they also don’t have a revenue source like Costco, maybe what Larry should be putting on the ballot is raising the local sales tax another .25%, than we would be inline with Arcata, which has money to build a brand new fire station.
That would only increase the tax on a new $15 cd by
$.04 ($15 X .085%) instead of ($15 X .0825%), than both of Larry’s stores would be charging the same tax.
All of that money is ear marked for the General Fund.
Arcata doesn’t have a zoo either. ASK the people if they want to pay more in taxes (sales or property)to support the zoo. Taxes are taxes regardless of the source. Are these the same anti-tax conservatives who have been screaming against a tiny tax increase on the top few percent of the wealthiest people in the country, claiming it would hurt the economy? Of course, an increase in sales tax hits the poor a lot harder than the wealthy so they don’t mind it so much.
“Plain Jane Says:
February 16, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Arcata doesn’t have a zoo either.”
Yes you’re right Plain, they don’t have a zoo they have a baseball park, which only serves to entertain people.
This year it’s the zoo that has fallen out of favor, what will next year bring… will the City parks become too expensive?
The Arcata Marsh gets 120,000 visitors a year and the animals take care of themselves.
They might, Just Saying. We have the funds we have and unless people vote to raise taxes, we won’t have more money until the local economy improves. Regressive taxes or building more places for people to spend money without increasing the supply of money won’t do it. If it comes down to police and fire protection or playgrounds, you can’t blame people for putting safety first.
Zoo discussion underway on channel 10 at city council now.
Anybody care to live blog the meeting for those of us without cable?
Pretty please?
They’re a good 30 minutes into it. Zoo supporters are supporting the zoo (of course), some recognize the dire financial situation. Tina Christensen suggested going to the county and other communities who bus their kids to the zoo for financial help.
DA candidate Kathleen Bryson agrees with going to the county for support, talking about how the zoo brings families together.
Yay Heraldo!
Earlier, Police and Fire chiefs talked about what 5-10% cuts would look like for them: loss of positions, fewer pso’s, less availability for stimulus funds. 10% would be close to $1 million loss for EPD. 3 pso’s, ltes, records clerk, other positions cut if they had to cut 10%.
Linda Atkins says we need private funding for the zoo. 103 years ago when the zoo was founded they had tiny cages and they tortured animals back then and it has changed. Glad it’s now an credible zoo. City can’t sustain funding it anymore, she says. Next year we’re going to have to start paying the piper and it’s going to be serious. So zoo supporters need to get out there and raise the money.
Larry Glass: You’ve all been thoughtful in your comments. People who benefit from the zoo haven’t put the pressure on the supervisors. they haven’t been hearing from you. We’ve approached them repeatedly on that but we have no leverage. Linda called it — you may win this debate tonight but what will happen is the zoo will go away. It’s not sustainable. Nothing has changed that. The more the foundation improves the zoo, the more expensive it is to maintain. It’s a good thing, but there needs to be money coming in to support it. Or get the supervisors on board. Form a JPA will municipalities in the area. This a referendum for the city tax payers. You heard the chiefs, the public works manager what it’s going to be with the budget shortfall. Frank said it can’t lose $50,000 or it looses accreditation. So they don’t get cut but everyone else does?
Mike Jones: We knew this conversation would come. Hope the red flag you’ve been hearing is resonating. Councilman is one fo the bravest men I’d ever met, but this is a red flag if we can’t get something…
Can’t go forward with either recommendations (ballot or advisory committee). Somehow we have to get it hammered out soon before the real bleeding starts. Commend both chiefs. Chief Nielson has vastly improved police work in this town with the limited budget. This is the eleventh and a half hour. I want the zoo, I want it all, but can’t go with one of these proposals.
So Mike gives props to Larry but won’t put the zoo up for a vote?
Jeff Leonard: Easier to make tough decisions when you hear from the community so appreciate people coming out. Served on zoo foundation board for a number of years and they need more members. It’s fun.
The question of should the city stop funding the zoo? The answer is No. City has responsibility to fund the zoo, part of our mission and quality of life. Paradigm of us vs. them. Zoo vs. public safety. Don’t buy it. Tough times, tough budget. To get through we need to band together and find solutions. City is a tree with many branches, don’t want to lop off any of them.
Leonard (cont.): Lady told me she likes the council best when they work together and vote unanimously. Want to try to set different tone for this budget if we can. Haven’t had a budget yet that we all voted yes on. Let’s be flexible.
On the ballot issue, assessment district for zoo isn’t feasible. Chief says every single fire district has assessment to support depts except for city of Eureka. City would support unified fire district. That’s the ballot measure I would like to see.
Even easier to hear from the whole community when we are allowed to vote.
Frank Jager: Agree with Jeff. The public has spoken, they want to keep their zoo. If we work together we can solve these problems without cutting public safety. Have to put biases aside. Worked for Eureka when Prop. 13 hit. Many cuts, hard hits. Won’t last forever. Glad we’re starting earlier on the budget, have a head start on it. Just because city manager has put down numbers on paper doesn’t mean we’re going to do it that way.
I thought Hum 1 and EFD were exploring a merger? That’s the measure I’d like to see.
Dave Tyson: Option of a parcel tax. Fixed amount based on calculation that’s done. Voted on by general public, requires 2/3 vote.
Virginia Bass: Whatever we do, people brought up marketing, it’s not being marketed to its potential. Linda said 60 people $1000 apiece. I bet we could find people. Not long term solution. Maybe worthy of a challenge, we’re competitive. Nobody asks for donations, we assume someone else will take care of it. Can discuss that later.
“The public has spoken?????” Arghhh. When will the council members stop deluding themselves into thinking that a large turnout on a Tuesday night is the sole basis for them to take the pulse of the people? My bullshit detector is pegged.
Larry moves to discontinue funding of zoo. Linda seconds.
3-2, motion fails.
Jeff says Hum 1 won’t do it because EFD doesn’t have enough support.
Tyson’s idea deserves further thought – though it sounds a little bit too much like the sewer/water hike. Too bad we didn’t get a 2/3rds vote on that.
It may have been Jeff’s idea. Bass asked Tyson for an explanation.
BRILLIANT! People won’t vote to increase funding for the zoo so we’ll threaten to cut the fire dept. budget with a merger and put an assessment on the ballot to fund the fire dept. “The public has spoken” is hilarious!
3-2. So Jeff, Mike and Frank (and Virginia?) are on record as refusing to let the people of Eureka vote on whether the zoo is so important that cuts to basic city functions will have to be made instead. Wow.
Bass didn’t vote, but it’s clear which button she would have pushed if she could.
In ten months, Larry, Linda and a new progressive councilmember in Ward 3 will have a three-vote block, possibly four, if they can find someone to run in Ward 5. Jager is going to be in the minority and he is going to hate it.
Congrats, Heraldo, on Humboldts first live blog – at least that I’m aware of. And thanks to Access Humboldt, too.
Damn, some people are never gonna realize the Victorian era is totally over. People want trains, zoos, restoration of all those decrepit houses, casinos, fancy-pants theaters, natural history museums… Y’all need a time machine or some shit.
Thanks, 06em, but it seems like we did it during one of the Marina Center marathon meetings. And the Journal does it now and then with some kinda fancy software that’s like Twitter.
Ah. Well thanks, anyway, for tonights effort.
No problem. Saves me from having to blog about it later!
Great job, Heraldo. Thanks!
Thanks, Jane.
I appreciate the coverage too. I’m hoping that some sort of compromise can be worked out.
I think the county and other cities should step up. It’s too much for the city of Eureka to handle, but with support outside the city the zoo should easily find the support it needs.
What a pathetic trio sitting to the mayor’s right tonight.
Jones needed Glass to explain the difference between an initiative and an advisory vote.It was written in “Turner Language” (google it if you need to)which is roughly a 6th top 8th grade level.
After inhaling the embalming fumes being spewed out by Jager,Jones managed to trip down the stairs and screw-up the sound sytem, yawned through most of the public comment, commended Glass for his courage, then decided he couldn;t take a stand on letting the people vote.
It appears that the too timid to determine anything trio is mustering-up a compromise proposal whereby police and fire facilities and personnel will be pared back, the Zoo continues under it’s current socialist funding structure, and the lower primates in that facility will be trained in 911 emergency response, as well as firefighting and disaster preparedness and response.
If you have any sort of emergency under this scenario,you can contact Joned,Jager,or Deafie to come work with the spider monkeys-a natural match.
“# Anonymous Says:
February 16, 2010 at 6:37 pm
The Arcata Marsh gets 120,000 visitors a year and the animals take care of themselves.”
THANK YOU!
tHAT IS THE BEST POST OF THE LOT!
THANK YOU,THANK YOU,THANK YOU!
That was Jones’ fault? No wonder he blamed me.
“Heraldo Says:
February 16, 2010 at 8:50 pm
I think the county and other cities should step up. It’s too much for the city of Eureka to handle, but with support outside the city the zoo should easily find the support it needs.”
GOOD LUCK ON THAT ONE, HERALDO.
Cities have closed libraries,cut music in entire school districts, hold fundraisers for books and materials,the state and city infrastructure are in a shambles and the California Legislature is getting ready to chopping the budget to pieces.
If Eureka wants to kepp it’s “icon” (what a total misapplication of that term) let ‘em fund it without becoming a parasite to the surrounding communities.
By the way, i love you blog.
You may be right. One way or another, the city will not be able to shoulder the burden.
Thanks for reading!
I’m betting they fully fund the zoo with cuts to safety and then beg for an assessment to fund safety. They think the people are really really dumb and they might be right since they were elected.
“..,Jones managed to trip down the stairs and screw-up the sound sytem, yawned through most of the public comment, commended Glass for his courage, then decided he couldn;t take a stand…”
Who wouldn’t yawn during lengthy public comment after working all day?
I’m in favor of putting zoo funding on the chopping block, but I wish that those who agree with me would try to make compelling arguments. Any sad fuck can call Frank Jaeger or Larry Glass names.
Since when does a room packed with supporters equal hearing from the public?
The Zoo foundation and its supporters are turning into bullies and playing a pathetic game pitting council members who eat it for being honest against those who bend to a special interest group’s pressure and a little butt kissing.
The Zoo is another sentimental relic like the railroad. Perpetuating its existence is both wasteful and ignorant.
The Zoo has lots of fundraisers. What happens to that money?
How is the Zoo spending its budget?
Are those grand plans for expansion still eating away funding?
Has the Zoo stopped adding exhibits in an effort to cut back?
well, mielke 9:16-if joneS can’t handle the “stress” OF THE LONG HOURS and can’t even be adequately prepared for simple agenda items HE SHOULD GET THE F**K OUT OF ELECTED OFFICE!
Every other member up there works and were fully capable of understanding A SIM0PLE GODDAMNED PROPOSAL, remain alert for this “public input” he pays so much lip service too,AND can navigate a single stair stair step during the event.
Is he too feeble for office? Health issues?
No kidding. Half the politics around here are people tryna drum up support for sentimental bullshit. Sometimes I feel like it is just a struggle between the wackos stuck on Renaissance and those whose sentiment lies in the Victorian period.
If you people think a majority of the citizens of Eureka support your closing of the zoo, you’re badly & sadly uninformed or misinformed.
Even putting it on the ballot would create a firestorm that would end your darling, Larry Glass’s, sorry political career.
But it would also create division & conflict. You all would be happy because you could post another 1,000 posts a month until it is over. The rest of us do not like the anger & upset it would cause.
How many of the speakers at tonight’s meeting were voters in the city of Eureka, HiFi? How many live outside the city? That’s the problem.
If HiFi really believed that putting zoo funding / closure on the ballot would stir up enough anger against Glass to end his political career, he’d be demanding it be put on the ballot. Council meetings are for public input, they aren’t an election. They convey the sentiments of the most passionate about an agenda item, not necessarily the majority view. People may like their zoo, but they like their firemen even more.
While Nano managing to make a forceful argument in favor of cutting zoo funding, All St d’ run can do is point out flaws in elected officials.
And HiFi may be bad at math, but he can predict elections and pull statistics out of thin air.
I would love to see Glass’s political future ended Plain Jane, he doesn’t even really live in Eureka. He belongs on the Arcata city council.
But I am tired of all the dirty political campaigning, all the tiresome and misleading allegations thrown back & forth. And strange things happen on election day, especially in low turn-out elections.
Witness the fact that measure T passed and that child Chris Kerrigan won.
HiFi is tired of dirty campaigning as he tosses out dirt.
I was wondering how long it would take for those like HiFi to throw out the “real” Eurekan card. Why does the right always descend to the level of “real ________s” agree with me or they don’t belong here? That seems to be the very last refuge of scoundrels.
Sorry, Heraldo. Larry and Linda DIDN’T make a motion to terminate zoo funding. They made a motion to put the issue on the ballot. BIG difference.
If you had cable TV and your income was suddenly cut to bare bones level, would you keep the TV and forego the mortgage, utilities, and food? Priorities in bad times can be damn tough. The City must protect its core services and responsibilities. As on speaker put it, the zoo is an “amenity”, NOT a necessity. Core services like police, fire, and public works MUST come first. beyond that, if the money ain’t there, the money ain’t there. Get busy, zoo supporters. Don’t waste time beating on the city. You won’t keep getting blood out of that riock. Get out there and find other money. Time’s a watin’!
Thanks for the correction. Live blogging is a challenging business.
Sorry. Case of ‘Fat Fingers’. That’s “blood out of that rock” and “time’s a wastin’. You’d think I’d have learned to proof-read by now!
The really SMART conversation is happening at the Arkley Mirror — check it out. We’re posting crude attacks on Larry Glass and the progs who hate Home Depot and exotic animals.
Thank God (and 3/5 of the City Council) that the public won’t get to vote on zoo funding.
Hugs, suckers!
Mike called his snagging of the microphone system a nice pratt-fall. Worthy of any one of the 3 stooges, wouldn’t you say?
I have an observation for people who think Larry’s proposal is vendetta-driven or that he is pursuing some secret agenda.
If I were Larry’s political adviser, I would tell him he is crazy to do this in an election year. The constituents in his Ward may really like him, but the entire city gets to vote for him. Politically speaking from a public relations viewpoint, this is a bad move – taking on the Zoo. There was no way he was going to get three votes for this now. I would advise him to wait until next year to bring this to the table: He will be safely re-elected with a four-year term in front of him, and there will be two new faces on the City Council and he might get a third vote.
Politically, this is a bad move, in my opinion.
But that says a lot about Larry Glass. He doesn’t care about whether this is a good political move. His commitment to doing what he thinks is best for the city is more important to him than his own public image in an election year.
Though I think this is going to cost him some votes in November, I admire Larry’s courage and sincerity.
I will vote for Larry in November. But if the question of whether to fund or not fund the Zoo ever makes the ballot, I think I will vote for the Zoo.
This is a difficult decision considering next year there won’t be money for a zoo or public safety.
But there always be money for homeless parking lots & homeless campgrounds ?
Gee, the TS reports that Easter Seals is closing local facilities, they’re short about $150,000. But theres a silver lining in this cloud. The disabled, handicapped or just ill people who won’t get rehab can go to the zoo instead and see captive animals maintained with $500,000 of city money.
Easter Seals doesnt get the majority (if any) funding from the City of Eureka’s General Fund, NAN.
Nice Straw man though.
It isn’t a straw man, 1:00. Easter Seals has provided a necessary service to local people for many years and the city SHOULD help out, at least until their private funding levels are restored. This should be a higher priority than a zoo, FFS.
Hi Jane,
I agree that Easter Seals do provide a necessary service, but the City does not provide any funding. I believe their funding comes from the state.
It would be great if the city could provide funds to Easter Seals to allow them to keep their doors open, but they can’t even fund the police and fire departments or the zoo.
No one has asked for any money to fund a homeless campground or homeless parking lot, High Finance. Stop lying.
People need to sleep in their cars because the city has wasted millions of dollars that should have gone to affordable housing.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
If you are worried about illegal grows the answer is simple: legalize it. You will have your chance this November. After it is legalized then there will be far more rational (and less expensive) places to grow the herb than in a house in a residential neighborhood.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
I didn’t say there was any reason to spend public money on that.
I’ve always advocated the people who are worried about such problems pool their own funds together for such endeavors. Our tax dollars going to support these pet projects is counterproductive as people don’t get to decide what is important, special interests do.
Unfortunately for the zoo, it a special interest project and will not hold support forever.
I don’t advocate taking money from program x as it would be better spent on y, I advocate cutting funding for both until a balanced budget is reached. Maybe folks are too used to credit cards. People need to realize that if the city wastes a bunch of money now that it doesn’t have, that overspending is going to deleterious effect for the next fiscal year and have an even harsher impact five years down the road.
Look at all the interest Californians pay on government bond measures. What good has that done our quality of life? At this point, it would be better to have that money spend on services today, not paying back the pet projects of yesteryear.
The city has not yet budgeted for a homeless campground or homeless parking lots bill, because we don’t have them yet. No way will private contributions even begin to pay for it Mr Nice.
If they approve it, we all will have to pony up our tax dollars to pay for it.
Plain old Jane, That $150,000 of tax dollars would benefit a few dozen people, maybe even a couple of hundred. The zoo benefits the 54,000 people who visit it each year.
And, everybody, two-thirds of those 54,000 visitors come from outside the city limits. Once in town many of them spend their dollars here. That benefits all of us by the jobs it helps create & the sales tax revenue that goes to the city coffers.
“The zoo benefits the 54,000 people who visit it each year.”
nope, 54,000 visits, many are the same people.
The mall is of benefit to more people than the jail, the zoo, and Easter Seals combined so maybe the city should just give all the money to the mall owners in their time of financial distress.
Easter Seals provides necessary benefits to people and the zoo provides entertainment. Again HiFi demonstrates his total lack of perspective.
But Jane, the City is not funding, nor has it ever funded, Easter Seals. Enjoy that straw man with NAN that the two of you are building.
No one SAID they were funding it, 5:46. It is a FACT that Easter Seals provides a valuable service to people who NEED it and that they are going to stop doing so because of funding cuts. Proposing that the City of Eureka help them continue to provide this necessary service and prioritize this over a funding zoo is a not a logical fallacy, straw man or otherwise.
Yes. It is.
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
HiFi, many of those ‘out-of-town visitors are actually from Cutten, Myrtletown, or Pine Hill, not exotic far-away places. They are people who live nearby, take advantage of the zoo they are provided, and do NOT pay their share for its operation. I have never heard of anyone coming to Eureka (tourist, I mean) just to visit the zoo. If that’s their goal, San Francisco, with a REAL zoo, is not that far away.
How much was Bass’s campaign charged for the use of the Zoo facilities last week? Or is it free for any candidate to use as a campaign/fundraising venue?
Yes, Jane, and thats exactly what NAN did – he inserted the Easter Seals into the conversation, when it has NEVER been funded by the City.
I wish we could fund every good and worthy cause; unfortunately we cannot as a city do that.
The zoo has been a city endeavor for years. I do agree that it should go to a vote, and further, that it should be a countywide vote for parcel assessments.
If it is a no vote,then it should be shut down.
Inserting a new fact into a debate is not a straw man fallacy, 7:39. He didn’t ascribe any false views to anyone on the issue. You might not like that he brought up Easter Seals, but that doesn’t make it a straw man.
Yes he did, Jane. He inserted the easter seals situation into the conversation and based argument upon the straw man that the city s/b funding that over the zoo.
Look, I agree with you more than I a disagree, and I’m not even the person who brought up the strawman initially, but I agree with the original poster’s position that it is a straw man, especially when the easter seals situation has nothing to do with the zoo/public safety debate.
Have a nice evening.
Stating that the city should help fund Easter Seals is not a straw man fallacy. It is simply bringing another funding issue into the conversation which was unknown previously and it is irrelevant that the city wasn’t funding Easter Seals previously. There is going to be a lot of competition for tax money as this recession drags on. Are we not allowed to state our preferences for their priority without being accused of logical fallacies?
You can cut it all, Jane. If you don’t come up with some way to GROW business, the entire money stream will dry up.
Kinda like if you are out of work, you can cut your phone, your cable TV, even your electricity, you can live on dogfood if you can afford that.
Cutting will only get you so far. Sooner or later, you have to go out and get a job. Then you can afford food, power, phone, TV, rent… maybe a movie now and then – the sky is the limit if you are willing to go for it.
The Harbor Commission is an excellent place to start. Bring in business – bring in cruise ships.
Go up to Alaska, take a look, during the cruise ship season, EVERYONE is working – ships pull in, 2,000 people get off – they buy food, the restaurants thrive, women like you own tour bus fleets, they book people on tours and they rake in the bucks, there are fishing tours, sightseeing tours, bus tours, walking tours, bicycling tours, kayaking tours, cooking classes, students set up crepes shacks, and there are lines of people buying the crepes, musicians play on street corners and their violin cases are full of cash, EVERYONE in town who wants to work is working, businesses thrive. Then the people get back on the boat and the town is peaceful.
There is no reason why Eureka can’t work something like that out – and then your fisherman have work, your businesses make money, restaurants make money, people have jobs. Every ship that pulls in dumps money on your doorstep, if you are willing to work for it a little bit.
Pay for the zoo, the cops, the whole nine yards – and that’s just ONE idea. That’s what harbor Commissioners are supposed to do, help support a thriving port that contributes to a healthy economy so you don’t have to cut everything and starve in a cold dark hovel.
Wow Rose! Like no one EVER thought of THAT before. BRILLIANT!
Jane, you are piece of work. Before you lecture someone on what makes a straw man, go back to the comprehensive ass kicking you took at the hands of that DA dude last week in the Hagen thread.
Rose has a point, it’s not like “no one EVER thought of THAT before”, its that people like you are against any kind of economic growth up here.
Put a couple of legal bordellos in Old Town, along with a few cannabis cafes and a small casino or two and there might be a reason for a couple of cruise ships to make a port of call here.
A little Amsterdam on the West Coast. But you better do it fast that window of opportunity is going to close.
Although we live in a naturally beautiful piece of the world, tourists who want to see redwoods won’t come here by ship. People who want to have (adult) fun will come here by ship, at least a few.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Been there. Done that.
Talk to Don Leonard Rose. He has been the front man from the Harbor District to the cruise ship industry. There isn’t a chance in hell a cruise ship will stop here… Redwood Dock rebuild or not.
Rose should have attended the year long series of forums the Harbor District Economic Development Committee (headed by Pat Higgin’s) held in 2009.
9:13 is a straw man builder par excellence. LOL!
Cut it all, then, Buettner. Close the zoo. ‘Cause we can’t. Can’t. Can’t. Nothing will ever work. All obstacles are insurmountable, and anyone who figures out a way will be blocked. Stagnation is desirable. So be it.
“Progressive” ma.
Speaking of straw people, hi rose.
The zoo can be funded privately. Problem solved.
Only for now. What’s next?
“The zoo can be funded privately. Problem solved.”
I thought that too not so long ago.But it seems that for some reason,those most adamant about keeping it open are the least willing to want to privately fund it,and they show a little bit of desiring to live in what they usually refer to a “nanny state”,where the government provides when the public has no interest yet still wants to reap rewards.
The city shouldn’t consider putting zoo funding on the ballot,they should put it up for sale.
Somehow that seems a bit disingenuous, when one of the people who has GIVEN the most, mark, been the most willing to pony up private money, for this and other things that benefit the city, is the man who receives nothing but vilification here. Gimme, gimme, gimme, and then KICK.
It’s also ironic that “Jane” brings up Easter Seals, when one of the people who did alot of volunteering to help raise money for them also receives nothing but vilification here. I wonder if “jane” even knows who it is.
Fact is, there are people who are very generous.
What have the predatory litigious groups done?
Maybe one of Arkley’s predatory litigious groups can secure funding.
Heraldo, has it ever occurred to you that if you lay down your arms, maybe there can be peace?
Oh, you want to stop name-calling now?
Hmmm. Pg. 1 In 2008… Mateel Environmental Justice Foundation, $1,775,300.00, Attorney’s Fees and Costs…$1,060,000.00… if I am reading this right, they gave a shitload of money (other distribution) to ERF (Ecological Rights Foundation), that would be “Humboldt Paykeeper’s” predatory litigious parent… Pg. 26-31 from 2000-2008…, you got a calculator, heraldo? Pg. 26 1/3/08…$10,000.00, 1/14/08…$20,000.00, 1/22/08…$15,000.00, 1/23/08…$15,000.00, 2/15/08…$20,000.00, 2/19/08…$20,000.00; Pg. 27 3/3/08…$20,000.00 (ERF and CATS), 3/3/08…$5,000.00, 3/3/08…$20,000.00, 3/26/08…$15,000.00…. and on and on and on it goes
Pg. 2 from 2000-2008… $14,166,687.00…280 settlements… Attorney’s Fees and costs… $7,917,000.00
AND The “Ecological Rights Foundation” themselves another 38 settlements,,, $950,000, 750.00, roughly half of that in lawyers fees and costs…
That’s just in one document re: Prop 65. More money to CATS, ◼ KFPA ($35,000.00 and $15,000.00
I repeat – what have they done for the community? Built a playground? Donated to the zoo? Paved a pothole? Cleaned up the NEC’s own dump?
Inquiring minds… and all that.
Well, it was peaceful for a minute.
What did Arkley do?
Predicted the second coming, or something like that.
He pissed somebody off, and war ensued. What’d he do? And why did it start after he stopped contributing to Salzman’s causes?
Poor Mr. Arkley! So calm and mild mannered, so unfairly targeted! At least he has you to save him from the ultra-powerful Richard Salzman.
Tell me when the attacks began.
You’re the score keeper.
His donations to the zoo are only some of the contributions the community gives.
YOu seem to think he has nefarious motives – What do you think he gets in return for that?
hey, bars aren’t quite closed, you two wanna go get a drink? I can be at the AA lounge in 5 minutes, first round on me?
LOL
I guess I’ve been put into moderation. Eh. Night, heraldo. Night Anonymous.
You wish I would put you in moderation, rose.
Nah, that wouldn’t be any fun. LOL was not an offensive comment. Maybe it’s the all caps thing.
It’s an occasional WordPress thing.
Anyway, maybe someday you can answer the question. Night.
Maybe you can see past your obsession with Salzman someday, but one shouldn’t hold one’s breath.
GOTCHA Jane!
I knew you’d rise to the bait of people like you being against the economic development; of course its a straw man! Just like inserting another non starter into the conversation – Easter Seals.
The only person you got was yourself, 9:13. But at least you are now doing so with an ID rather than “Anonymous.” You still don’t understand the difference between straw man fallacy and changing the subject a little by introducing new information.
Again, Rose has nothing useful to contribute, and her Sarah Palin syntax “kinda, sorta” is almost as annoying as her belief in Eureka as a cruise ship destination.
So far the defenders of continued municipal funding for the zoo have argued that the zoo is off-limits for unspecified reasons, Larry Glass is a bad person, and this is a left-right battle.
It was probably not intended, but RA actually did contribute to the zoo’problem’ by building all the fancy new buildings that require more money for maintenance and do not earn their own keep. The zoo budget has increased annually for a number of years. It has taken NO cuts and, in fact, has not even tried to find ways to economize. More exhibits. More animals. Accreditation. All of these cost ever more money. When all of the other services in the city have been and are being cut, it angers me that the zoo continues to think it is ENTITLED to anything it damn well wants. If the zoo had offered to find ways to cut back by 20%, this would be a very different discussion. It’s possible it could lose its precious accreditation for awhile, but it could survive. If better times return or if it finds other money it could always seek reinstatement. If it doesn’t even try, it is doomed as the shit slowly hits the budgetary fan over the next year or two.
Well does Gene Bass’s Pacific Coast Security (or what ever it is called) patrol the zoo or not? If so, how much does that cost?
Jane and Joel and heralda are without a doubt out of their comfort zone when talking about reality. Rose is just telling you what even the people in Massachusetts have finally learned.
“Rose is just telling you what even the people in Massachusetts have finally learned.”
Another meaningless contribution to the thread. Did the voters in Massachusetts learn that public funding for zoos is necessary?
You people are going to have to try a lot harder.
Right. We get it that it is Arkley’s fault for contributing to improvements for the zoo – for gifting the city with ‘stimulus’ funds that didn’t come from the government. The only strings that were attached were that you have to pay for janitor services.
How dare they work to make it better.
If all you need is a 20% cut, Larry, maybe you ought to just ask the zoo – you say they didn’t offer, so ASK THEM. That ought to be do-able.
But cutting is ultimately not going to solve the real problem. Sorry you don’t get that, Joel.
Rose, you should talk to a few of the zoo board members that quit during the zoo ‘improvements’ process. They predicted that the scale of the project would be unsustainable, however the funder was forceful about they wanted. Seems that a ‘conservative’ like you would understand about building capacity beyond your means to derive income.
Isn’t it odd that Rose, who usually complains about others wanting to spend money that doesn’t belong to them, wants to spend Eureka taxpayer money when she lives in McKinleyville?
Nor does she have a job, thus the 5 hour-a-day blog participation
Hey lay off Rose you butt shanks! She actually RAISES the quality of the Humboldt Mirror’s comments.
Hugs!
That wouldn’t take much.
Using Jane’s logic, she should not be commenting on matters pertaining to the city of Eureka either, as she has said that she resides on Humboldt Hill, outside of city limits.
Joel, no one has to try very hard when dealing with a dim bulb. You seem to always be at home but there is no light on. ROTFLMAO!
I never said Rose (or anyone else outside Eureka) shouldn’t weigh in, 11:52. I was just pointing out her hypocrisy. I doubt you are capable of understanding the difference.
And I am pointing your hypocrisy in “weighing in”.
Jane, you’re a farking idiot. You are incapable of having a civil discussion with anyone on this board; hell you even told Heraldo “F*ck You” a while back.
You’re more of an ass than NAN, and that’s saying a lot. I probably agree with you politically a lot more than with Rose, but the only thing you’re able to do with her (amongst others) is to hit her with personal attacks.
It was a pleasure watching you get your ass handed to you by the attorney last week. It couldn’t of happened to a more deserving person.
Jane, speaking of understanding the difference, what I have said is – CUTTING is not going to solve the problem. The City can cut til the cows come home, cut it all.
The SOLUTION is to grow your business community and increase prosperity, then the City coffers will be full once again, and all things will be possible.
You cannot do that with the “No, we can’t” crowd in charge. You can’t do that with an anti-business and anti-growth mentality. You’re doomed with that mentality. there is no manna from heaven that’s gonna save you – and look what happens when someone decides to donate and be supportive – you’re driving that away too.
Cruise ships are only ONE possible way to do that. Maybe you have a better solution.
As I said Rose… ask the experts. Cruise ship are not possible. It isn’t a conspiracy it is just not going to happen.
How about some other ideas?
Rose, do you understand that ‘wealth’ is created by light industry and NOT by retail? Retail spreads the existing wealth around but does not create ‘new’ money. So if Eureka’s (and everyone’s) retail sales are way off, thereby producing a huge reduction of income to the city (sales tax), how does adding even more retail stores help the situation? It gets even worse when the added stores are corporate owned chains which take their profits OUT of the local economy. Do we have some already? Of course we do and we all shop there sometimes. But they actually reduce the money circulating in our local economy. Adding more won’t help. If RA would use a major part of the Tract for a light industrial park, perhaps coupled with short-sea-shipping right down the block, we could start growing our economy in a meaningful way.
As for the zoo, every time cuts are mentioned, the zoo board starts weeping that it would lose its accreditation. This is a fairly new thing and apparently quite expensive to maintain. Maybe, to survive at all, the zoo needs to give it up for awhile. Perhaps they could recapture it if/when times are better or if/when they find other non-city money. But to keep usinf it as a shield to hide behind while demanding ever more money just won’t fly any longer.
“You cannot do that with the ‘No, we can’t’ crowd in charge.”
And then there’s the “we cannot think” crowd.
Mr. Buettner asks for ideas, but it’s unlikely that we’ll hear any from Rose or the other zoo defender/Larry Glass haters.
Looks like the defenders of privilege for the wealthy and greedy are having a name calling field day. Thanks so much for citing me and other with nastiness and venom. We welcome your bile, and continue efforts to ensure you won’t prevail.
Good to remember FDR’s speech on the eve of his second term election, 1936. Similar time to now and similar reactionary attitudes. He was also the object of vile name calling:
We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace, business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.
They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.
Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me (and) I welcome their hatred.
12:35, I have never told Heraldo to f_ck off. NEVER HAPPENED. If someone did so using my ID, I can’t help that. If you don’t want to debate with me then DON’T. See how easy that is? Your opinion on the carpet bagger attorney matters not at all to me either. People who are too disinterested in the area where they live and work on the taxpayer’s money but can’t be bothered to vote there should be ashamed to admit it. That he can do so legally doesn’t make it okay. Debating with people too lazy (or too intellectually dishonest) to create an ID and use it is a waste of time since you have no accountability at all.
LOL!
I believe the zoo needs its accreditation to be eligible for certain grants and programs, and lower insurance rates. Keeping their accreditation is a wise use of their funds.
Also, the comment about cruise ships. There are a few that have arrived here. A place like Old Town has a lot of appeal for this sort of use. I have been on a couple of cruises and they often stop in small-town places like this with unique side trips.
I don’t remember all the specifics but one issue is the distance (from like S.F.) and the number of days in the cruise. Basically the logistics don’t work for the cruise ship industry as stopping here wouldn’t time out right.
In addition the cost to meet the liability issues is huge requiring an investment beyond what the Harbor District can do. On top of that the cruise lines charge the host community per person when disembarking. Transportation costs from Samoa to Eureka are not picked up by the cruise line.
This was all covered in great detail at one of last year’s Harbor District Economic Development Committee meetings.
Hey, I remember a Jane telling Heraldo “fuck you” about a year ago, but it was Jane Doe. I have always thought the two were the same people, but maybe they are not, 12:35.
The reason it sticks out to me is that I remember thinking how strangely she was reacting to Heraldo at the time, as she was vociferously disagreeing with Heraldo (and pretty much everyone else on the thread), which was odd, because they seem to agree on many if not most issues.
Jane, YOU have no accountability, or for that matter, crediblility – nobody knows who the hell you are, so you can say things without impunity here. At least Rose attaches her real name here, as well as Mike Buettner, Barb Leonared, Mike Jones and Joel Mielke. I’d say they have both accountability and crediblitly that neither you, I or any other anon poster has.
NAN, accusing others of venomous namecalling? LMAO. Dude, you are a piece of work accusing others of name calling when thats pretty much all you do when you post.
“But cutting is ultimately not going to solve the real problem.”
Yes Rose, it will. The problem, whether it’s “real” or not to you, is that we don’t have enough funds to cover essential services, but we’re funding a zoo.
Would it help if I post in all caps?
After a colorful spin through the “fuck you” section of the Humboldt Herald comment archives, I can report that no such comment from Jane directed at me could be located.
Yes, but the Carson Park Ranger called you an “asshole.”
Apparently I forgot to hold a grudge.
Yeah, well Heraldo, a quick spin through “fuck” in the search function only lists three threads. Go figure.
It listed four when I searched “fuck.”
But I was referring to an administrative comment search which exceeds capabilities of the front page search function.
At least when you use an ID that ID is accountable for what you post. There are any number of Anonymous on any given day so you can switch your story as you see fit. For the record, until recently it has been about a year and 1/2 since I posted here because I got sick of the macho idiots who can’t stand a woman with the moxie to argue with them. Studies have shown that women are judged much more harshly on blogs for having strong opinions. This one is no exception to the rule.
And I haven’t used Jane Doe since the Gundersen scandal started, for just that reason.
Furthermore, there are a number of people who know who I am. That I don’t want every nutcase stalker to know who I am is just common sense to all but nutcase stalkers.
Agreed. Same here.
Does anyone get that if you don’t have safe streets if the city belongs to drug dealers and criminals, if there is an abandoned car on every corner, if the roads are so pothole’d you don’t want to drive your car on them, that no one is going to want to visit the damn zoo, let alone your city, anyway?
Private funding is the answer. It is ludicrous to think a city the size of Eureka can support a zoo out of the general fund and to the detriment of more pressing needs. It’s a quality of life issue. What adds more to yours? Police, Fire and Maintenance, or a few caged animals on a few acres of land?
Of course, if the silly septuagenarian at epd would have the class and the grace to retire, that would solve a big part of the budget problem there. If they have to lay off lieutenants, can he be one of them please?
Would anyone from the pro-zoo-funding side care to respond to Anonymous 7:01? We’ve been waiting, lo these 200-plus comments, not to mention the previous thread.
Jane,
I think that if there were a number of anons changing their story every few posts, then Heraldo would call bullshit on them, and in fact I think he has done so in the past.
Joel, I would consider myself to be on the pro zoo funding side of things, but not at the expense of fire and police. Furthermore, I think it needs to be a county wide special assessment, and if those who are posting here in support of it are in favor like they say they are, they should vote for it.
If the votes are not there, then the zoo needs to be closed. That being said, I do not believe that the proposed cuts to fire and police would lead to the type of doomsday scenerio presented by 7:02.
Where is the private funding going to come from? Industry up here is dead, and if not yet dead, its on life support; as someone said upthread, retail certainly isnt the answer either. No, it needs to be public funding – in the form of a special assessment parcel tax.
Indian Casino?
Anyone Ask?
Studies have shown that women are judged much more harshly on blogs for having strong opinions. This one is no exception to the rule. – jane
No sh-t?
Strong opinions have little to do with it, as shown by the case of blogger Kathy Sierra.
wonder what studies? not trolling tonight, just might be interesting.
offer still stands BTW. AA lounge. you know it would be fun.
Letter From Grandpa… .. So true
John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business. He’s a life-long Republican and sees his dream of retiring next year has all but evaporated. With the stock market crashing and new taxes coming his way, John assumes now that he will work to his dying day. John has a granddaughter. Ashley is a recent college grad.. She drives a flashy hybrid car, wears all the latest fashions, and loves to go out to nightclubs and restaurants. Ashley campaigned hard for Barack Obama. After the election she made sure her grandfather (and all other Republican family members) received a big I told-you-so earful on how the world is going to be a much better place now that her party is taking over. Having lost both roommates, Ashley recently ran short of cash and cannot pay the rent (again) on her 3 bedroom townhouse.. Like she has done many times in the past, she e-mailed her grandfather asking for some financial help.. Here is his reply:
Sweetheart, I received your request for assistance. Ashley, you know I love you dearly and I ‘m sympathetic to your financial plight. Unfortunately, times have changed. With the election of President Obama, your grandmother and I have had to set forth a bold new economic plan of our own….”The Ashley Economic Empowerment Plan.” Let me explain. Your grandmother and I are life-long, wage-earning tax payers. We have lived a comfortable life, as you know, but we have never had the fancier things like European vacations, luxury cars, etc.. We have worked hard and were looking forward to retiring soon. But the plan has changed.. Your president is raising our personal and business taxes significantly. He says it is so he can give our hard earned money to other people. Do you know what this means, Ashley? It means less for us, and we must cut back on many business and personal expenses. You know the wonderful receptionist who worked in my office for more than 23 years? The one who always gave you candy when you came over to visit? I had to let her go last week. I can’t afford to pay her salary and all of the government mandated taxes that go with having employees. Your grandmother will now work 4 days a week to answer phones, take orders and handle the books. We will be closed on Fridays and will lose even more income. I’m also very sorry to report that your cousin Frank will no longer be working summers in the warehouse. I called him at school this morning. He already knows about it and he’s upset because he will have to give up skydiving and his yearly trip to Greenland to survey the polar bears. That’s just the business side of things. Some personal economic effects of Obama’s new taxation policies include none other than you You know very well that over the years your grandmother and I have given you thousands of dollars in cash, tuition assistance, food, housing, clothing, gifts, etc., etc. But by your vote, you have chosen to help others — not at your expense — but at our expense. If you need money now sweetheart, I recommend you call 202-456-1111. That is the direct phone number for the White House.. You can also contact the White House here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/ .. You yourself told me how foolish it is to vote Republican.. You said Mr Obama is going to be the People’s President, and is going to help every American live a better life. Based on everything you’ve told me, along with all the promises we heard during the campaign, I’m sure Mr. Obama will be happy to transfer some stimulus money into your bank account. Have him call me for the account number which I memorized years ago.. Perhaps you can now understand what I’ve been saying all my life: those who vote for a president should consider the impact on the nation as a whole, and not be just concerned with what they can get for themselves. What Obama supporters don’t seem to realize is all of the money he is redistributing to illegal aliens and non-taxpaying Americans (the so-called “less fortunate”) comes from tax-paying families. Remember how you told me, “Only the richest of the rich will be affected”? Well guess what, honey? Because we own a business, your grandmother and I are now considered to be the richest of the rich. On paper, it might look that way, but in the real world, we are far from it. As you said while campaigning for Obama, some people will have to carry more of the burden so all of America can prosper.. You understand what that means, right? It means that raising taxes on productive people results in them having less money; less money for everything, including granddaughters. I’m sorry, Ashley, but the well has run dry. The free lunches are over.. I have no money to give you now. So, congratulations on your choice for “change.” For future reference, I encourage you to try and add up the total value of the gifts and cash you have received from us, just since you went off to college, and compare it to what you expect to get from Mr. Obama over the next 4 (or 8) years. I have not kept track of it, Ashley. It has all truly been the gift of our hearts. Remember, we love you dearly….but from now on you’ll need to call the number mentioned above. Your “Savior” has the money we would have given to you. Just try and get it from him. Good luck, sweetheart. Love, Grandpa
Get your head out of your ass, Grandpa. Taxes for 95% of Americans have gone DOWN under Obama.
Grandpa has only himself to blame since he supported the slashing of taxes and skyrocketing deficit spending of the neocons while waging expensive and unnecessary wars. People who claim that raising taxes on the wealthy back to where they were under Reagan is some sort of socialist conspiracy to “redistribute” the wealth are too delusional to take seriously. Like all good Republicans, Grandpa is quick to shift responsibility for his own political party’s catastrophic agenda onto the people given the job to clean up the mess. They all want to take credit for being “self-made men” but deny any responsibility for the consequences of their policies.
What the fuck does the fabricated “Grandpa” story have to do with continued municipal zoo funding?
With defenders of the like we’ve seen here, the zoo should be very nervous.
Well what he probably means is that we need to drive the new brown out of California…and then the zoo would flourish, you say you kind of agree, with what part?
Really, WTF?
I think he is saying (sarcastically) that brown skinned undocumented immigrants are to blame for the zoo funding problems.
Makes sense in that distorted rightwing view sort of way. They are to blame for the foreclosure crisis, failure of public schools, skyrocketing health care costs, low wages, crime, disease, etc. Oh, and Obama getting elected.
Grandpa has Alzheimers.
Read the TS article today about EPD’s POP unit. Then see if you want cuts to that budget so the zoo can be funded.
If grandpas’ taxes are going up he must be making somewhere in the neighborhood of $500,000. Poor grandpa. Boo hoo.
Thanks, Anonymous 10:26: here’s the article.
1. Grandpa needs more money for hookers and blow.
2. A Republican will use any excuse to kick even his own family to the curb.
3. The Club for Growth is paying their blog trolls by the word. (But no benefits they are independent contractors.)
4. All of the above.
I disagree. I think Grampa has a point. All these old people who worked their tails off and are suffering now instead of being able to retire deserve better. Not that Obama is to blame, but I am not sure it is Repblican values that got us here. There is way too much government spending. I also think we owe some respect to those who have paid into the system their entire life, followed the rules, went to war, and now are old. They thought all they did was the right thing, and they had a good work ethic.
The fictional grampa’s taxes haven’t been raised yet, Anony, and even if they are it would only be a few percent. You know, back to where they were 10 years ago? This whole “letter” is just propaganda, probably posted by someone paid by a conservative group. Elections have consequences and the consequence of 2 Bush terms is what we have today. I just wish the people who elected him had the sense to understand their own culpability in this mess.
I agree. I also see those who have lived 80-90 years and their wisdom, and am willing to listen. I think the extreme left wing and the right are both on the wrong track.
Those who belong to the “greatest generation” (older folks)have to see that life, the economy, wars, techonology, in short, everything they knew and believed before is different now. The world is a much smaller place, opportunities are not the same, problems that were solved then call for different solutions and considerations now. Populations are much bigger and less homogeneous and things simply cannot and will not be the same as they were even 60, 30 or even 20 years ago. Period.
Some of those great values work for our children as well though. Those families who have ignored them suffer, and don’t understand why.
and, by the way, Obama and Mrs. Obama are the best example of these values…
Values can certainly be the same, but the world is vastly different, so how they play out can be also.
Time will tell… Those I know who subscribe to the values I consider to be important seem to stay afloat in every storm.
It’s a lot easier to stay afloat on a pile of money regardless what your values are.
hahahahahaha.
for kicks google
“John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business”
I did a search for “John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business” and found a bunch of misty-eyed, tea-bagging horse shit.
What does that have to do with the zoo?
What is wrong with you people?
“Values” do not equal money.
Even if “John G. Is 63 years old and owns a small business” were true, John G has done VERY poorly by his grandchildren. It sounds as if he were a continuing money teat which enabled his grandchildren to live financially irresponsibly. When they needed to learn the hard way to take care of themselves, he bailed them out. Only NOW — largely because his granddaughter disagreed with him politically — is he taking the action he should have taken LONG before.
At a personal level, he is playing the same role as the liberal government he despises, handing out money to the irresponsible and undeserving. But it allows him to feel like a “good guy”, and most importantly, it gives him POWER (disguised as “love”).
I love this: a little Nox Spews mind control right here on HH. It’s on the tube, it’s on the big screen, it’s on the radio, it’s on the internet. OBush is Clinton redux: starts out with good intentions, tries to placate the implacable Right, tries csving in to them (and they STILL hate him), and ends up with $100 million. John G is as real as Santa Claus, and as much a “person” as Exxon. Here, America, have a little more dope.
not to defend the tool that posted that seemingly personal family story but who here hasn’t been fooled by propaganda/hoax/interblag scam/etc. it’s human nature. we’re all suckers for this.
Thanks, Walt!
Not really, really? It takes a conscious effort to fact check but I trust that good old bull shit detector and it’s rarely wrong about the knee deep crowd that likes to post on here.
I’ve never been fooled by such bullshit.
Now excuse me while I check my email for my Nigerian barrister’s inheritance response, cancel all my Halloween shopping plans, hide my money from Nancy Pelosi’s 100% profit tax, scan my system for the Olympic Torch virus, read up on this sinister Dihydrogen Monoxide pollution, and perfect my triangle of life technique.
If you wanna hear an interesting conversation, head over to Rose’s blog where they argue that rooting for the President to fail is not anti-American
No Rose, it’s probably never occurred to Heraldo. Have you tried offering a magic unicorn?
Who cares about peace on blogs?
Filibuster, masterful deconstruction! Letter from “Dad” should be ashamed of itself. Not fact checking or falling for BS is normal, regurgitating mass mailed spew and implying you are related is beyond intellectual dishonesty. Thank you for outright lying to us so we know to ignore you!
Um, Michael, Filibuster didn’t post that piece of crap. It was “What My Dad Thinks and I Kinda Agree” who posted it and who obviously put more thought into his ID than the e-mail forward he posted.
So 9:01, are you saying you were a good american and rooted for GWB’s success? Ewwwwwww.
The story about grandpa is just representational of how a whole lot of our population feels about their hard earned money being taken and how kids today have a different value system. I think it should be taken only as an example.
Aside from that, I think we all need to give whoever the current president is a chance- they all seem to want the same thing but have different ways to achieve it. Obama reached out from the beginning to bring people together from all sides to work on the goal of fixing our country. I think it’s patriotic to support him and try his methods, and I thought the same about some of Bush’s methods.
The Republican’s are simply positioning themselves to push for big tax breaks for those in the top 5% of the tax bracket. These are the folks who provide the majority of jobs for Americans.
The other 95%? They don’t have the same impact toward job creation. Right Rose?
I’m for flat tax rate, personally. Everyone pays the same percentage.
What do you think this country would look like if tax rates were set at what the poorest can pay, Anony.Miss?
I’m saying what I think is fair to all. And I think the country would look better if no one cheated, lied, or left horrific messes to the environment as well. That’s what I would really like. But neither are likely to happen.
A true flat tax would mean that capital gains would be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. That has traditionally been anathema to the right and to the business community. Some on the right (like Forbes, several years ago) proposed that capital gains be untaxed.
It has always seem strange to me that income produced without labor– income generated simply because one already has money — should be taxed at a different rate than that earned by honest labor (the “hard-earned” money, so favored in discussions?).
I know the ostensible reasons, investment etc., but much investment is not done to actually increase productivity and provide jobs, but is instead speculative in nature, and does nothing but shift money from one group to another, typically from the less-wealthy to the more-wealthy.
It’s hard to say that capital gains are produced completely without labor. For one, some capital gains are on properties that have increased in value because of the hard work of the owner. Some monies made in investments are at great risk taken by the owner of them, who must do without them for a time period or possibly forever. I think capital gains must be taxed; they are income, but not without work or risk in my experience.
And labor is often provided at great risk. Ask anyone who has ever worked behind the counter late nights at a convenience store.
Taxes suck. People who advocate for taxes – progressive, flat, or “fair” – are nuts. The top 10% of earners pay 90% of tax money already in this country. They pay for us to go to war and bail out failing banks.
Taxes should be based on consumption, not on earnings or investment skill. The federal government should tax imports and sales and if they can’t pay their welfare program bills on that, beg for money from the tax advocates.
Jane, I was commending Fil for his deconstructing, not posting, of “Dad” , who, by the way, I referred to as “it” not on the chance that it is a hermaphrodite, rather that it might be a corporate front internet troll.
I knew John G. the small business owner when he was a snot nosed kid runnin around 2 street.
All he could ever say was, “gimmee,gimmee, gimmee..”
His parents spoiled him rotten.
Karma’s a bitch…..
“The top 10% of earners pay 90% of tax money already in this country.” In your dreams. The top 10 percent pay BIG bucks to make damn sure their “hard earned” money DOESN”T end up in the hands of the stinking government. The CEO class has tens of thousands set aside as part of their pay package for “financial counseling”, paid for by the shareholders. And that’s the point of flat tax: rather than getting tax credits for investments that make them still more money (like nuclear power plants), they pay, like the rest of us, for the government they hate, but which makes damn sure they get more tax dodges, more bail-out money, and more face time (at least) with “our” elected officials.
Taxes are the price (literally!) you pay for living in a society. As a member of society, you have obligations to the other members, whether you like it or not, and some of these obligations involve taxes to support goals society as a whole considers important: e.g., fire, police, education, roads, navigation, defense, public safety, water. Other obligations involve personal behavior: e.g. prohibitions on killing, stealing etc.
If you wish to separate yourself from society, that means going far away from it to live alone, and not partaking of ANY of the services it provides. Otherwise you are just a freeloader.
Yes, and why should any one group be judged to pay more of a percentage? It’s impossible to say who “deserves” to pay more. The worker who puts in more hours (and thus makes more in a year) should pay a higher percentage back to the governmentthan his cohort who doesn’t work as much? In that group it isn’t fair, and it isn’t fair in most other comparisons I see either. I contend a flat percentage is the only way to treat people fairly across the board.
I agree that consumer taxes make sense. If you don’t buy a lot of stuff, you don’t pay a lot of sales tax.
Consumer taxes mean the poorer you are, the higher percentage you pay because poor people have to spend all of their income while the richer you are, the less you have to spend and the more you have to invest. The more you make, the more you are benefiting from society so it is fair that you pay a higher percent. Additionally, progressive taxes slow the accumulation of wealth at the top and provide opportunity for those starting out in life without a big inheritance to succeed, as well as encourage employers to pay decent wages and benefits rather than pay taxes at a higher rate.
Consumer taxes are largely a choice though. The amount of goods a person buys is somewhat of a choice. The more you make the more you are benefiting society as well, in a lot of cases. People who make more pay their own way for college, medical care, larger amount of income tax, etc. I am not following you that the the more you make the more you benefit from society. I think it’s the other way around. Those persons I know who give back to their community in time and money are those who benefit society, and I don’t see it as a wealth issue; I see it as a citizenship issue.
How does handing our federal government trillions of dollars to spend on shooting Taliban and propping up loser car companies even out for this alleged “benefit from society.” Income tax violates our privacy and does nobody any benefit. This is 2010, we have enough information to stop having these theoretical discussions about if the government is doing a good job sanctioning Iran and lowering tariffs on importing cheap shit from China or just blowing our money.
I know the 10%/90% thing is inaccurate, I was trolling. Six figure incomes do pay the majority of all tax, even if the richest of rich dodge taxes. The point is nobody should have to pay this, it is a failure of 20th Century politics.
How did this get on the zoo thread anyway?
Without society they wouldn’t be making money. Society educates the people they use whether as employers or consumers. If you are poor you don’t have a choice as to whether to spend or save, unlike if you are rich. And you didn’t deal with the problem of accumulated wealth and opportunity. If our tax rates were based on what the poorest can afford, there wouldn’t be any educational programs for the poor, any benefits for them, etc.
Apparently everyone has now run out of zoo arguments. Tax issues are at the heart of all the programs suffering from funding problems today.
Although those who complain about high taxes would have you feel that taxes on high incomes are grossly disproportionate, the Federal income tax has become much flatter and lower in the last 60 years.
Here is a brief table abstracted from
year first bracket top bracket #brackets
1945 23% 94%
1950 17.4% 84.4%
1960 20% 91%
1970 14% 71.75%
1980 14% 70% 15
1990 15% 28% 3
2000 15% 39.6% 5
2009 10% 35% 6
There is a particularly interesting graph showing how top marginal income tax rate has varied from 1913 to 1909:
As to your question about how wars benefit society, they don’t, Mr. Nice. But they do benefit shareholders of companies who profit from wars.
I would add, Filibuster, that as the tax rates have flattened, income inequality has increased dramatically which is destabilizing for society and the economy. I guess some people haven’t noticed.
Rats — the url’s and # of brackets didn’t post.
Here’s another try.
The marginal graph:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MarginalIncomeTax.svg/500px-MarginalIncomeTax.svg.png
The Wikipedia page on history of US progressive income tax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_progressivity_in_federal_income_tax
Yeah. Well, those programs are important, but the most productive and hardest working are often punished for their hard work.
Anyway it’s a difficult problem, obviously. Time for me to go watch the Olympics.
The hardest working people in this country are the poorest paid, the agricultural workers. And I would agree that they are often punished for their hard work by getting cancer from pesticides and crippled from stoop labor.
I agree, but you are speaking of conditions and not our tax system.
Yeah, it would suck much less to get cancer or be crippled than have to pay high taxes when you are rich.
Yeah. I’m going to watch the Olympics.
can we just eat the rich?
Rich hater. If you had it, would you give it back?
no, then I would want to eat the poor.
It is ironic that David Tyson, Republican, is proposing to raise taxes to provide welfare to a private foundation.
What happened to the Norquist Pledge? I thought you Republicans were against raising taxes?
Not only that, but depending upon how it is implemented, a parcel tax can be quite regressive: “Grandpa” will pay the same amount of parcel tax on his humble home as the Arkely Center will pay.
Ahh. That is why it is acceptable to the Republicans. Now it all makes sense. Screw the average person, the Republican motto.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
Just to state the obvious.
The City of Eureka has to 1. Cut spending or 2. Raise taxes. A third alternative, borrowing, seems to be no longer doable. A fourth alternative, bankruptcy, is possible if the City Council does not take charge of this situation.
Glass and Atkins seem to be the only members of the council today that have the political courage to address the looming bankruptcy with reasonable proposals. The city is rapidly running out of time and alternative solutions. This is not a new crisis, I attended meetings of the Finance Advisory Board two years ago where the writing was on the wall!
State and Federal funding is about to run dry. You don’t miss your water…..
The City Council must take charge now as the City Manager has painted himself into several corners at once and is now politically immobile.
That means one of the troika (Jones, Jager or Leonard) is going to have to come to his senses and make some tough votes.
If this drags on the voters are gonna be pissed in November.
have a peaceful day,
Bill
“If this drags on the voters are gonna be pissed in November.”
Or,in a sense,relieved as two members of that troika are termed out and likely could be replaced by council members more adamant about ridding of wasteful spending.
The Troika Stooges?
Consumer taxes mean the poorer you are, the higher percentage you pay because poor people have to spend all of their income
That is not true under The Fair Tax proposal – in which every household would receive an allowance, in the form of a check every month, that more than covers any value-added-taxes on necessities. In fact it would be a net gain for any low income people because in addition to those allowances, the cost of everything they buy would be lower and goods and services would no longer have to include embedded expenses that cover existing taxes.
Check it out jane, even you might like it.
I have checked it out and read critiques of it as well, which I doubt you have. For example, did you know that their proposed tax wouldn’t come even close to covering govt. costs?
This will get you started:
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html
FYI: Those making under $15,000 (or $24,000 depending on how they structure it) and those making over $200,000 would see a decrease in their taxes. All those in between would be paying more.
BTH, despite what anon.miss claims, income from interest, dividends, annuities, royalties and rents, and others is recognized as UNEARNED income by the IRS for tax purposes.
And that’s not just mere rhetoric. Its the result of a public legislative process that conclued passsive activities that obtain income have less value for society than active ones.
Now, a rental “business” can have a salaried/hourly manager and pay social security, workman’s comp, business licenses, fees and taxes, and give passive profits to its owner. The manager’s income is earned, the owner’s isn’t.
I gave examples. Also, some owners ARE the manager.
Ques: How much will an owner pay themself as a manager compared to what a similar arms length employee is paid? Ans: A whole lot more(as long as a tax saving “pencils out”).
I know one government retiree rent collector who “paid” himself a small salary for a few years, just so he’d be eligible for social security. After becomming eligible, he “fired” himself. He made quite a killing on that one.
But the bigger point about passive rental income is that areas with large renter populations have adopted rent control policies that limit windfall or excessive “unearned” income on a basic human need, housing. Of course, rent collectors consider it an illegal taking. After all they reason, no one has to have housing. Just see the many homeless who are alive and well with no housing.
Ha ha- pay myself? How about million dollars- yeah, sounds great! Good one.
People who have rental managers can afford to pay the 8-10% of rents collected. This is more common in larger apt buildings than the small margin of profit on single family dwellings. Many times, the margin of profit is only realized after years of work on the place and self-management, when the property is sold and hopefully your payment will be in increased value. Other than that, the profits on a house are not that high, usually (but not always) enough to cover your yearly expenses.
About the social security- if he was on the edge of receiving Social Security and got over the cusp just enough to get it by paying himself, he was making very little, and certainly no killing. Plus he had paid into it and deserved to receive it at some point.
See the attitude I was talking about, Jane?
anon.miss cries all the way to the bank. You can claim all the years of work but its mostly just sitting on your backside, cashing rent checks and calling low wage occasional workers to do under the table repairs.
Look, residential neighborhoods are destroyed for families when the owners convert houses to rentals. The West side of Eureka has declined as a direct result of absentee rent collectors primary motivation is having larger positive cash flow than having higher property values. Even in Trinidad, the community is upsert how rent collectors are changing their city for the worse.
Prop 13 has fixed the major variable costs for rent collectors, paying for the increasing public costs rentals cause to formerly owner occupied areas. when moral owner occupants move out, they sell and the home is reassesed so the owners pay their fair share of public costs. Rent collectors don’t sell, they just move out, collect market rate rents, and get a free ride. Anon.miss your attitude is becoming more unpopular as the bad effects from it are being realized.
With SCA 67, homeowners can adjust the base year value when the home price goes down, so that part of Prop 13 legislation has helped people. Considering what shit home prices have turned to, it’s good that we have provisions for tax reductions in our state constitution.
The deterioration situation you are describing is a side-effect of the illusory, credit default swapped, real estate boom we saw in the last 15 years. Prop. 13′s tax rates may have helped absentee renters hold onto false hope, but the Prop. 8 amendment has ended up protecting legitimate new homeowners. Once we move into a stable real estate market… if that ever happens… Prop. 13 will work out.
If it makes you feel any better, these slumlords are screwed now.
Mr. Nice, your memory or ownership is pretty short.
Most rent collectors first live in a home for some years (at least 4 or 5 usually) while they get tax and inflation benefits. Then they “move up” and instead of selling their old home to another owner occupant like they were, they rent it out.
If you check the HSU economic index, the median home price in HumCo is now 56% higher than in 2002. Only home purchased since 2004 have lost value.
The future rent collectors who bought houses since 2004 will have to wait a few extra years to work their scheme, but all the others are doing just fine, thank you. Their taxes are flat (or have gone down as you point out) while their unearned rents have gone up. In fact, forclosures have increased demand for rentals and helped to support rental rates. Think Mr. Nice, have rental rates gone down, can renters claim any of those expense reductions you cite? No they can’t.
On a political note, the housing bubble was largely caused by excessive credit that was a Republican policy to create homeowners they believed would likely start to vote Republican. The enticement to become a rent collector receiving unearned income and then claiming the unearned title of “businessperson” is a justification for many ambitious persons to feel no remorse for ruining residential neighborhoods.
NAN cracks me up with his assumptions. His rants show his bitterness and snap judgment toward those he considers to have a better life. I am proud to say we have taken slummy and historic places that were wasting away and turned them into healthy, warm, efficient and comfortable dwellings for people. We have had to do this with the blessings of design review committees in Eureka and Arcata, and I am happy to say we have surpassed their expectations in most cases.
Sorry to disappoint, but I am not the wealthy slumlord you would like me to be, and the neighbors love the improvement to their area.
Didn’t say you’re wealthy anon.miss, just garnering unearned income. The IRS agrees with that, but you can stay in smug Da Nile. Those houses would be better served with owner occupants, your claims notwithstanding.
And no homeowner appreciates rented houses in their neighborhood. They know it reduces their quality of life. You believe your myths but every neighbor would actually love absentee landlords out and owners in. You don’t want renters living nest door to you because that’s a sign of a “bad” neighborhood.
I agree, but these places were complete wrecks.
Also, the work it has taken to convert them is huge, not to mention the money it took. Not what you would call “unearned income”. The IRS recognizes this, raising our cost basis from the improvements. Really, it’s very satisfying, helping a slummy area look better, and the neighbors do come over and tell us. It would have been nice if a person would have bought them who would live there, I agree. But they didn’t.
P.S. Most of the other homes in the area are rentals as well.
And all of this relates to the zoo how? If you have a problem with understanding the city’s income shortfall, or what serious cuts to Police, Fire, and Public Works in order to maintain zoo funding at its current level would mean to our city, please attend the budget workshop tonight at City Hall and LISTEN. Don’t cry crocodile tears (we don’t even have one of those…yet) for the poor fuzzy critturs until you thoroughly understand what fully funding the zoo will mean. The zoo MUST make concessions. It should get the same budget cuts that every other department gets, at least. OK it loses its accreditation and maybe has to place some animals elsewhere. None of these things are permanent and can be reclaimed when/if times get better. But for now the only other choice is going to be to close it entirely when the city hits bankruptcy. Maybe the zoo board can find grants or other funding. If that’s so, it has an advantage over, say, the police department. (bake sales for bullets?). But they’d better get their asses (do they have one of those?) in gear quick because the well is running dry and when it’s gone, it’s gone!
The Zoo may not be “sacred”, but having a nice zoo in your community is certainly a wonderful thing — worth funding.
Allen Nyhuis, Coauthor: America’s Best Zoos
Would you like to donate, Allen?
Frank Jaeger’s incoherent tenure on the Council so far makes it obvious how ineffectual and incompetent a coroner he must have been. I think he does have good intentions but he is a reed so weak that the smallest political breeze blows him over and renders him incapable of thought. Anyone who has attended or watched council meetings on tv knows what I am talking about. The only time he has been animated was the time when he was promoting a pay raise for the city council.
Both Jager and Bass should recuse themselves from any vote on the Zoo, they both have a conflict of interest with the Zoo.