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Jamaican Bravery

jamaicaThese Jamaicans are literally risking their lives for their fellow citizens.  I am in awe of each of them, and I hope somehow they are protected from the dangers they’ve willingly exposed themselves to.

More information: http://my.firedoglake.com/heathen07/2013/01/24/we-are-jamaicans-lgbt-jamaicans-speak-out/

  1. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 11:53 am | #1

    I’m sure an unintended correlation here: The phrase ” risking their lives for their fellow citizens” describes our military.

  2. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 11:57 am | #2

    Assumptions will get you every time, JW.

  3. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 12:20 pm | #3

    Yes, the military was risking their lives protecting fellow citizens from the people of Korea from invading Idaho, or Vietnam from invading Montana, or Laotians from invading Florida, or the people of Grenada from invading Maine, or the people of Iraq from invading the beaches of Malibu. It’s a scary world out there and the US Military is keeping North Dakota safe.

  4. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 12:25 pm | #4

    PC,

    The military (today) is also protecting the United States from an organization responsible for the sudden deaths of 3,000 innocent American civilians.

    Regardless of what you think of the foreign policy decisions made by the leaders in charge — many of whom, like W, managed to traverse the Vietnam era without fear of being sent to a combat zone — it would be nice of you to offer some respect for the sacrifice that many members of the military make every day.

    For starters, most of the members of the military are from the class that you think you are defending with your pathetic and uninformed snark.

  5. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 12:26 pm | #5

    Looks like Camacho has been hittin Humboldt’s finest a little too hard. Put the pipe down for a while little fella.

  6. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 12:32 pm | #6

    Mitch……you just can’t pass up an opportunity for a dig about Bush, can you. By the way…..what branch of the military did Obama serve in ??

  7. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 12:39 pm | #7

    I believe it was TAVV: Toddlers for an American Victory in Vietnam. Your point?

  8. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 12:42 pm | #8

    Drones and all the civilians they are killing, the 250,000 dead civilians in Iraq, all our wars of Imperialism and you lecture me Mitch? Every Empire has justifications for its conquest. Using 2,996 dead Americans in New York to justify continued Empire Building is just the kind of rationalization the government espouses and wants you to parrot. MLK was wary of “the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice”. We must have “order” here at home more than we must have “justice” here at home or abroad.

  9. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 12:50 pm | #9

    “For starters, most of the members of the military are from the class that you think you are defending with your pathetic and uninformed snark.”

    Yes, foolish me. Wanting to keep the mostly lower class with some middle class average 19 years old American soldiers from wars of Imperialism, death, or the mental stress associated with post combat duty. What a heartless devil I am.

  10. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 12:54 pm | #10

    Once again, Mitch demonstrates the difference between Feinstein Liberals and true Progressives.

  11. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 12:59 pm | #11

    PC,

    True. You’re exactly the sort of person for whom I feel a really substantial contempt. As I’ve said here too many times already, I can handle the foolish and/or dumb conservatives. I’m afraid of people like you, and it always makes me question my values when I realize there is much on which we’d agree.

    I wouldn’t call myself a Feinstein liberal, but I certainly would never want to be associated with anyone who sounded like you.

  12. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 1:10 pm | #12

    “Really deep contempt”? You can out-doodle the conservatives but when a true Prog holds your feet to the fire of true progressive values, such as those espoused by MLK, out comes the “really deep contempt”. Nothing pisses a Liberal off more than when they discover they are as nasty as they say Conservativs are. I love it when Feinstein Liberals have really deep contempt fror me. It lets me know I have dialed in perfectly on the lie they live; that being, they are nothing but Imperialist Militaristic Americans who hapen to believe in a woman’s right to choose.

  13. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 1:22 pm | #13

    Mitch :I believe it was TAVV: Toddlers for an American Victory in Vietnam. Your point?

    Point is I see no reason to denigrate Bush’s service in the Air Nat. Guard, since at about that same stage in his life, your boy Obama was spending his time snorting coke. As a Marine, I did two tours in Viet Nam, and it wasn’t something I’d wish on anyone. And by the way…..morons like PC had to watch out more for “friendly fire” than they did for the enemy.

  14. Dan
    January 24, 2013 at 1:24 pm | #14

    “The military (today) is also protecting the United States from an organization responsible for the sudden deaths of 3,000 innocent American civilians.”

    By bombing Iraq?
    Re-arranging rubble in Afghanistan?

    I see these efforts as increasing our vulnerability, decreasing our integrity,
    amplifying hatreds and a drain to domestic needs.
    Granted, not the soldiers fault, but holy smokes this is sheer crap.

    And… what organization was it that took down three steel-reinforced buildings
    onto their own footprints?

  15. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 1:36 pm | #15

    Odd how this changed from being about Jamaican gays to bashing the US military.

  16. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 2:02 pm | #16

    OK, my #11, while truthful, may not have been all that helpful.

    Let me try to examine what’s going on. First of all, this thread is about the bravery of some Jamaicans. I’ll point out that none of us have been interested in talking about that, then leave that to the side for a bit.

    JW proceeded to throw a predictable stink-bomb, pointing out that my phrase “literally risking their lives for their fellow citizens” sounded like something someone might say of our military. It was actually an intentional phrase on my part, but perhaps JW thought that the comparison would upset me. It doesn’t — I admire bravery.

    I really feel sorry for JW. I wish he would take some advice I tossed him some months ago and start helping elementary school kids to read, or something like that. It would make his life better.

    PC said this: “Yes, the military was risking their lives protecting fellow citizens from the people of Korea from invading Idaho…”

    I pointed out that today’s military was also defending the United States against an organization that had killed thousands of Americans, and we went south from there.

    I’m going to try to clarify, from my point of view, why statements such as PCs are so bothersome to me.

    Do I like United States foreign policy? No. I’d guess that I dislike it and disapprove of it at least as much as PC does. Do I blame young soldiers for it? No. I think that’s where statements such as PC’s make my blood boil.

    “The military” is a very large entity, composed of many things, including many people. People join the military with all sorts of goals and for all sorts of reasons. There are a few commonalities, however — all recognize that they may be called on to risk their lives.

    While I’m sure that many young people join the military as a way to get a job, or perhaps in hopes of getting an education or later benefits, I think many, perhaps most, of the people who join the military also do it out of a sense of patriotism. I’d change the word to “gratitude” — a sense that this country has enabled them to live better lives than they might live in other places. They may or may not have thought about the global situation, and how in many cases the benefits to our lives are at the expense of the lives of others.

    I don’t feel that any lack of attention to this is outrageous. I think it’s human nature. I accept it, and I recognize that many of these young people, especially any that end up in combat, will probaby do a lot of more sophisticated thinking about the killing that they may be called upon to do. I note that many of the most courageous anti-war leaders have emerged from the military, and that the military leadership is often far more pacifist than the chickenhawk civilians that seem to send young men and women off to kill and die with depressing regularity.

    But I don’t get the sense, at least from his words (yes his words, unless it’s Verbena behind the pseudonym) , that PC thinks about any of this. The sense I get, and I acknowledge I could be mistaken, is that PC has a much more abstract and polarized view of all this: US foreign policy is imperialist, therefore anyone in the military is bad, therefore any praise of them for bravery is bad, therefore I’m a Feinstein liberal and not a true progressive.

    I think I’ve been PC a few decades ago. Again, perhaps I’m wrong.

    I know that I’ve felt extraordinary confidence that I was a good person and my opponents were bad people, and I know that I no longer feel that way. I’m not sure I’ve “improved” that much over the years, because I still think there are seriously bad people out there, but mostly I feel that they are bad because they are really, really, heavily, deeply, seriously emotionally unmatured, and I think they come in all political flavors.

    They are the people who don’t see the ways in which we are all connected with one another, and who think that simply changing the people in charge will suddenly make things better.

    They are the people who don’t really think all that much about WHY others might feel differently than they do, and who are ready to take groups of people and send them off for “education.”

    Typically, they are young, but in places like Arcata, there are many such people in their forties, fifties, and older. Many of them may be connected in some way with the university, because a new annual supply of adoring young people is often enough to keep them from thinking seriously about whether they might be mistaken in their views.

    So that’s where I’m coming from, and I suppose it’s a liberal point of view and not a properly progressive one. Sold!

    Now back to Jamaica. Jamaica, like much of the Caribbean, still seems to think that gay people are basically child molesters. I wouldn’t pretend to know the reason for this false idea, but it’s there. The meanness that I’ve read about with respect to LGBT people in Jamaica is remarkable, and it’s a meanness that seems to be exported with dancehall music’s murder themes — if you see a gay person “send for the Uzi,” sang Buju Banton.

    In America, what really changed the prejudices was when gay people began to come out. For many who did, it was a brave act, but most people who came out didn’t need to worry that they’d be necklaced with a burning tire, or have acid thrown in their face by some young person whose idols had musically instructed them to do so.

    To see people in Jamaica bravely coming out does leave me in awe. It’s uncommon bravery.

    Young people joining the military are brave as well. They may have joined the military for personal benefits, or out of a lack of available options, but there are always options available that do not involve potentially risking your life. So they are brave as well, and I hope they never need to suffer for their bravery by killing on behalf of America’s corporations and wealthy, or by dying on their behalf.

  17. President Camacho
    January 24, 2013 at 2:20 pm | #17

    I agree Mitch, the activists in Jamaica are as heroic to me as I admire and respect civil rights activists in the 60’s here in America. You assert, “Do I blame young soldiers for it? No. I think that’s where statements such as PC’s make my blood boil.” Tell me please, when did I “blame young soldiers”? I criticized the American government for endless Imperialist wars and Feinstein Liberals for being part of the Military Industrial Complex. Sorry this hurts your feelings Mitch.

  18. January 24, 2013 at 2:24 pm | #18

    It’s context, PC. Re-read your #3. No, you never said “I blame young soldiers.” You just declined to accept that there might be value in their service, or that the nation really does need to have people who respond to those who have killed 3,000 Americans.

    My feelings are not hurt.

  19. That Man
    January 24, 2013 at 2:30 pm | #19

    Mitch :
    PC,
    The military (today) is also protecting the United States from an organization responsible for the sudden deaths of 3,000 innocent American civilians.
    Regardless of what you think of the foreign policy decisions made by the leaders in charge — many of whom, like W, managed to traverse the Vietnam era without fear of being sent to a combat zone — it would be nice of you to offer some respect for the sacrifice that many members of the military make every day.
    For starters, most of the members of the military are from the class that you think you are defending with your pathetic and uninformed snark.

    lets not pretend know the government didn’t see it coming; they just did nothing to stop it. also; Saudi Arabia backed the attack; how come were not their oh yeah,….. they give us oil

    Operation Iraqi liberation. i will show respect to the troops its not their fault their used by cowards to gain wealth. but the deserters, the “traitors” those that have woke up and ether left or did something about the corruption. will always have a special place in my heart. obedience is not a virtue and should not be confused with loyalty, it is idiocy.

    now on to the matter at hand.
    God for them they have my support a few brave people in Jamaica is just what we need. keep up the good work.

  20. January 24, 2013 at 2:45 pm | #20

    JW @ #13,

    I’m sorry you had to experience tours of duty in Viet Nam. I was born in 57, and was finishing my first year of college when Saigon fell. The draft ended before I left high school.

    I do denigrate Bush’s service in the Texas Air National Guard. As I understand it, he got to play with expensive toys, for free, at no risk, and then just blew off the remainder of his service period, knowing that his Bushness would protect him.

    We probably have read different stories than one another. As I recall it, Bush’s unit was known as a safe place for sons of Texas’ powerful families to shelter from the war.

  21. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm | #21

    Chicken hawks are eager to sacrifice the expendables.

  22. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm | #22

    Mitch……I’m sorry for denigrating BarryO’s lack of service to his country, but it was probably a good thing. Snorting coke and carrying a loaded weapon is not a good combination.

  23. whatitis
    January 24, 2013 at 2:56 pm | #23

    Yeah, we have these guys’ culture to thank for uplifitng our society with goatse

  24. January 24, 2013 at 3:00 pm | #24

    JW,

    I listen to the radio a fair amount. The other day, some NPR reporter (what else? I listen while sipping my champagne in the limo!) was interviewing people about what they were thinking at President Obama’s first inauguration.

    I recall one black-sounding person saying, “I hoped he could stay alive.”

    I know that was my thought at the time as well.

    President Obama went to Harvard Law and headed the law review. He had his ticket stamped long, long before he chose to run for President, and I can’t imagine he thought he might win. I view his Presidency as national service in much the same way I view your tours of duty. And I suspect that his job might be equally risky, despite the Secret Service.

  25. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 3:03 pm | #25

    Who was of greater service to their country, Obama working to help a poor community or Bush wasting a million dollars worth of training playing fighter pilot over Texas, when he could pass his flight physical?

  26. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 3:55 pm | #26

    JW said: “Point is I see no reason to denigrate Bush’s service in the Air Nat. Guard, since at about that same stage in his life, your boy Obama was spending his time snorting coke.”

    Whereas GW Bush was admittedly getting wasted, getting arrested for drinking-and-driving (resulting in having his license suspended for two years, and according to some reports — and seemingly confirmed by his weasly non-denials — using cocaine, too:

    “In Fortunate Son, Bush biographer Hatfield quoted several anonymous sources regarding allegations of Bush’s cocaine use. Hatfield reported that Bush had been arrested for cocaine possession in 1972 and that his father pulled strings to have records of the arrest expunged.[13] Bush campaign spokesperson Mindy Tucker called the allegation “absolutely untrue”.[14] Bush repeatedly refused to state whether he had ever used cocaine. [15] Bush did say in 1999 that he could truthfully answer “no” to the then-standard FBI background check question of whether he had used any illegal drug in the last seven years. He later stated that he could have passed a background check under a policy that his father had instituted as President in 1989 that extended the background check to 15 years. This would have checked back to 1974, two years after the alleged 1972 arrest.”

    But of course we must keep in mind that he was a white guy, grandson of a U.S. Senator, and the son of a CIA director, millionaire, and future President, so naturally different standards apply.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy

  27. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm | #27

    Apparently it’s OK to snort coke, as long as you brag about it when you write your book.

  28. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 4:12 pm | #28

    Writing an honest autobiography in which youthful drug use is admitted is not bragging and no one said its okay.

  29. Mitch
    January 24, 2013 at 5:28 pm | #29

    Herald Lesson 437b2:

    American left on left arguments and right wing hatred of President Obama are more comfortable discussions than gay rights in Jamaica.

  30. Just Watchin
    January 24, 2013 at 5:42 pm | #30

    Yea Mon

  31. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 8:46 pm | #31

    Just Watchin :
    Point is I see no reason to denigrate Bush’s service in the Air Nat. Guard, since at about that same stage in his life, your boy Obama was spending his time snorting coke.

    Actually, point is only one party attempts to wrap itself in the flag and claim a superior level of patriotism while at the same time electing (Bush, Cheney) or trying to elect (Romney) draft dodgers who are happy to send other people’s children to war.

    Apologies to Mitch for further straying off the OP.

  32. Dan
    January 24, 2013 at 10:12 pm | #32

    “The military (today) is also protecting the United States from an organization responsible for the sudden deaths of 3,000 innocent American civilians.” Mitch

    And… what organization was it that took down three steel-reinforced buildings
    onto their own footprints?

  33. Anonymous
    January 24, 2013 at 10:49 pm | #33

    Dan – I’m going to assume that you’re not a batshit-crazy 9/11 truther. Is your point that we have no business in Afghanistan now that bin Laden is dead? That’s true to a point, but the flip side is obviously the power vacuum that a hasty pullout would leave behind.

  34. Eric Kirk
    January 26, 2013 at 12:59 pm | #34

    I’ve only read the first few comments, but how quickly people try to change the subject is sometimes telling. Unfortunately there are more than a few people around here who are so convinced of Reggae spirituality or whatever they want to call it that they really don’t want to discuss this issue. We learned a hard lesson when Buju Banton was invited to perform in Humboldt County, the first time, and the second time, and the third time…

    Can’t let anything get in the way of a party!

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