Measure N is meaningless

Tom Peters has a great letter to the editor in today’s Times-Standard which sums up the empty bunch of flag-waving that is Measure N.

By now, you may have noticed that there is no formal opposition to Measure N on Eureka’s ballot. The reason is simple. The measure is meaningless.

No, it will not produce the “Marina Center Now” as claimed on signs all over town. It won’t even change the zoning on the Balloon Track since the Coastal Commission has the final say there. So all that remains is a popularity contest bought and paid for by Security National (see its ads).

If SN had respected state law and the Coastal Commission’s requirements, the project could have been well underway. Instead it has chosen to flaunt the law and resort to meaningless publicity stunts.

Voting No on N will not delay or prevent the Marina Center just as voting yes will not speed the development. Send SN a message that Eureka will not be bought. SN must go through the regular lawful process like everyone else.

Vote no on N.

  1. High Finance
    October 8, 2010 at 9:03 am

    Funny how all the opponents of the MC and of Rob Arkley are also opposed to Measure N. They claim it is toothless, if so then what is the harm?

    That is a rhetorical question. The reason is the left doesn’t want Eurekans to register their support for the MC. They want the people to shut up & do what they’re told.

  2. October 8, 2010 at 9:09 am

    What is the harm in letting proponents lie to voters about what the Measure will accomplish? Gosh, it sounds like you want people to shut up and do what they’re told.

  3. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 9:18 am

    Just another example of how willing the right is to lie to get the votes they want. No harm in that? The GOP should change its name to the Grand Ole Prevaricators.

  4. Bolithio
    October 8, 2010 at 9:25 am

    If this measure is meaningless, don’t vote on it all, right?

    Regardless of how you feel about the politics behind this, its absurd to say this measure is meaningless. If it fails, there will be NO Marina Center. How is that meaningless?

  5. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 9:32 am

    If all this is so bad then why did BayKeepers
    settle. It’s always the same line of BS with

  6. October 8, 2010 at 9:33 am

    An exellent letter, Tom. Thank you for wrtiting it.

  7. October 8, 2010 at 9:33 am

    oh, darn, Thank you for writing it.

  8. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 9:33 am

    That just isn’t true either, Bolithio. If the CCC approves the zoning change, the council could just pass it.

  9. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 9:39 am

    “If all this is so bad then why did BayKeepers
    settle. It’s always the same line of BS with

    Two different issues, Einstein. Baykeepers was about adequate cleanup. Measure N is about zoning change and retail on the bay. It’s always the same line of idiocy with people like you.

  10. Jason
    October 8, 2010 at 9:45 am

    What it will do is help them galvanize their votes for their three city candidates as well as for Bass.

    The amusing thing is seeing small business owners (like the mattress store on 4th at 255) supporting N. It is likely that a competing business will open in the big box mall that Arkely builds, putting them out of business, but their loyalty to all things Free Market Fundamental, trumps their own common sense.

  11. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 9:55 am

    Classic “voting for the lesser of two evils”. The public is not given any good choices in this debate.

  12. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Supporters are going door to door trying to muster support for this boondoggle. They stated that it would increase tax revenue for the city, therefore justifying more retail for our area. Hey, there are only so many shoppers here, and if more are shopping at the proposed site, then other retailers are getting less business. What a shallow bunch of thinkers. Vote no on this boondoggle that’s funded by a $30,000 check from the Arkleys’. And HiFi, you can KMA.

  13. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Yeah, the Marina Center could generate $2 million in annual tax revenues- money into our general fund to go toward our schools & public safety- it could create new jobs, etc., etc. What a horrid thing for Eureka. Why would anyone be in support of something like that?

    You guys are a bunch of idiots.

  14. Bolithio
    October 8, 2010 at 10:22 am

    What do you mean PJ? Regardless of other hurtles to implement the MC if N passes, a failure of this measure is the end of this proposal, no?

  15. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 10:25 am

    No, Bolithio. Measure N is truly meaningless and nothing would prevent the council from passing the zone change if CCC approves, which is unlikely of course. Arkley’s promise that he will drop it if Measure N fails is, like all his promises, just as meaningless as Measure N.

  16. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 10:27 am

    It is my personal opinion that Measure N is just another way for Arkley to donate to his current and future elected puppets without them having to report the donations.

  17. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 10:29 am

    No it does not. How would it? If you vote no, it is not an affirmative to stop the process or the project.

  18. TiredofHIFI
    October 8, 2010 at 10:36 am

    Excellent article.
    Once again HIFI has extracted his/her/its’ little pin head from its’ normal rectal-cranial inversion position to sputter a few pathetic syllables in support of this hijacking of the election process.

  19. High Finance
    October 8, 2010 at 10:55 am

    “Tired” is using another one of his pseudo names to hump my leg again. Shame on you for trying to stop free speech (when it comes to conservatives). The truth hurts but someone here has to speak it.

    No Heraldo, the proponents are not lying you’re just playing loose with the truth again. Bolithio is right, if Measure N fails the MC will fail. Passing measure N does not gaurantee the MC will be built but it helps in that it will send a clear message the public supports the project. The message is “MC NOW” and that is the message voters will be sending when it passes big.

    Tom Peters has written several letters to the editor at the Times Standard opposing everything Robin Arkley does.

  20. Decline to State
    October 8, 2010 at 10:59 am

    How can Prop N possible fail with no (at least visible) organized opposition campaign against it?

  21. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 11:06 am

    There is nothing in Measure N that prohibits Arkley going before the council and requesting a zone change if Measure N fails but the CCC approves it, HiFi.

  22. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 11:22 am

    I wonder how much the door-to-door “supporters” get paid??

  23. Wazthere
    October 8, 2010 at 11:41 am

    If the ballot measure rezones the property, then Bill Pierson (shopping for supervisors and councilmembers)can not just rely purchasing candidates to protect his near monopoly. If it is meaningless as PJ and Heraldo claim, why all the attention you are paying to it?

  24. Ragtime
    October 8, 2010 at 11:49 am

    The letter writer is correct, of course. I’m glad he wrote his letter. And in no way do I mean to detract from the impact of his letter by what follows.

    The correct term is “flout” the law.

    To “flaunt” the law would be to display the law in an
    ostentatious manner.

    I am old enough and gay enough to remember when gay people with the audacity (courage) enough to be “out of the closet” were told by outraged members of the Western Cultural Herd to “Stop Flaunting It!”

    That’s why the substitution of the word “flaunt” for “flout” seems to important to me.

    For some gay people, just being ourselves is considered by outraged members of the Western Cultural Herd to be “Flaunting It.”

  25. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Tom Peters is right in that this is a “popularity contest.” And, a huge waste of money for Security National when they are unable to meet their existing financial obligations and are laying people off.

  26. Plain Jane
    October 8, 2010 at 11:57 am

    It’s the lies, Wazthere, not that you would get that when you claim Pierson has a “near monopoly.”

  27. by the numbers
    October 8, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Wazthere, how exactly to you figure Piersons is a near monopoly?

  28. by the numbers
    October 8, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    in order to have a monopoly Pierson would have near control over all others in the area, and be setting the prices on goods. yet they seem to have the best overall pricing in the area.

  29. Tom Peters
    October 8, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    No, HiFi, I am not opposed to all things ‘Arkley, only the ones that would do harm to our economy and our city. He has done some good things but, as no one is perfect, he has also done some bonehead things. Locking the public out of the planning process for the Balloon Track was one of the latter.
    There are many alternative scenarios that would have been economically viable and would have been highly acceptable and useful to the public.

    There is a finite pool of money for people to spend on retail goods. It can only be enlarged by bringing in outside money from things like tourism or conventions or from actually making things (light industrial). Adding more retail does not increase the size of the pie. It only cuts it into smaller pieces. That’s not too hard to understand. True, more retail in Eureka might attract money from other parts of the county. So let’s raid Fortuna, Ferndale, and Arcata? That only forces them to retaliate with even more big boxes, each of which will take even more money OUT of the county in a virtual death spiral. I don’t think that’s what we want, a sort of turf war. Instaed, let’s emphasize the creation of goods and the courting of tourists. Maybe an industrial park plus a convention center might accomplish both. See? We just need a chance to talk about it. Security National SLAMMED that door.

    And you’re right, Ragtime. Flaunted may be what I meant in one sense, but “flouted’ is more appropriate here.

  30. Bolithio
    October 8, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    But as it stands, the CCC is unlikely to approve a zoning change. It not impossible, but public support would help. SN thinks that this measure will demonstrate that. Im not defending this tactic, its just that it makes sense for them.

    It is my personal opinion that they are over the MC. They have invested allot into it at this point though, and this measure will confirm where the voting population of Eureka stands on this issue. If it fails, it will be much easier for them to walk away from it. I think secretly they hope it fails.

  31. High Finance
    October 8, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Plain Jane 11.06am, you’re being too cute by half. If Measure N failed, yes technically RA could go before the council & get the zoning changed, but politically it would be impossible

    Tom, prove it. The next time, instead of yet another anti RA letter, say something positive about him & maybe somebody would believe you.

    Adding more retail may not increase the size of the pie if you consider the pie all of Humboldt County. But you & I live in Eureka, we should be more concerned about the layoffs in Eureka’s police and fire departments, Eureka’s rising water rates, Eureka’s declining services to the public. Adding more retail in Eureka DOES increase Eureka’s pie.

    Its silly to assume that because another big box goes into Eureka that Fortuna will “retaliate” by adding another big box after that for the following reasons.

    First of all another big box would be LESS likely to go to Fortuna if they have even more direct competition in Eureka. Second, Fortuna will add a big box if they can regardless of anything Eureka does or does not do. That statement of yours shows a lack of understanding of how both the private & public sectors works.

    A convention center has been talked about for years at the Halvorsen Park location. It has never gone in because they are a huge money pit. But the MC does not stop a convention center from going in.

    I don’t think that is too hard to understand if you think about it.

  32. Mike Buettner
    October 8, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    “A convention center has been talked about for years at the Halvorsen Park location.”


  33. Bolithio
    October 8, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    …but politically it would be impossible

    Exactly. People soooo want there to be a conspiracy here but there just isnt.

  34. tenth street dreamer
    October 8, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    So Where do we start, No money from the city’s general fund goes to local schools. It is the lies and or the ignorance of some that gets these issues twisted and then others spouting off using flawed information.
    check the facts folks. The CCC will indeed pass judgment on this project before it will move forward, the vote on N will make no difference to the outcome. It was not the Baykeepers that settled the lawsuit, the outcome was settled by a federal judge in their favor, that is SN is now required to do a full cleanup of the property. Measure N is a tool by Arkley to give his candidates a wedge issue to divide the community, plain and simple. That would be Brady, Newman, and Bass. When a big Box comes to town their is a early jump in sales tax and employment but when others lose their jobs and sales drop at local stores, it is usually a wash with little net gain for the community.
    And lastly, HiFi, who in their right mind would want to hump your leg? It sounds like wishful thinking on you part. My dog would even turn up his nose at that one.

  35. Not A Native
    October 8, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Lots of possible scenarios there HiFi. I’ll invent one too.

    How about Home Depot reduces Pierson’s sales(and tax collections) and sells at lower prices(reducing tax collections from what Pierson would have collected for the same stuff). So, theres net loss of sales tax for Eureka. Now people would have the savings from lower Home Depot prices to spend on other stuff. But where they might spend that money is anyone’s guess. Maybe on nontaxable items or out of area purchases. Since the majority of shoppers will be from outside Eureka, its more likley they’ll spend their savings elsewhere.

    Just pointing out that increased city revenues wasn’t the goal for the people who planned the MC.

  36. High Finance
    October 8, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Mike Buettner, how long have you lived in Eureka? I cannot believe that anyone around in the 80’s & early 90’s who was paying attention would forget all the meetings, discussions & talk about a convention center.

    Not a Native, posted last week or the week before on a similar topic was mentioned a Home Depot study which showed sales from Eureka residents at its CC, Ukiah and a third location that I forget added up to $7 million dollars. That alone when added to sales from other county residents would make your scenario kaput.

    I never said that city revenues was the goal of the MC people, they are out to make money of course. But city revenues are one of the reasons why city residents should support it.

  37. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    11:22 – The door-to-door “supporters” I’ve seen are either already on the payroll and/or have a vested interest in the Marina Center project.

    There are so many theories about the “real” objectives of Measure N and probably many are at least partially right. I do think “popularity” and ego play a role. It’s also hard to understand why Arkley would throw so much money at this if they didn’t want it to pass. I think the one thing we can assume is that they want a victory on Measure N, meaningless in the big picture or not.

  38. humboldturtle
    October 8, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    The convention center talk was in the 70’s and 80’s. The Redding convention center was having trouble and no one wanted to put up the money in Eureka. The Adorni Center was built in the 90’s and the old Carsol Mill site next door was re-named Halvorson Park. Bob Halvorson was the last owner of the mill, and got the city into financial trouble over trying to build a hotel and RV Park on the property. HiFi is very old.

  39. tenth street dreamer
    October 8, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Thanks Tom for saying what needed to be said. You got them going on this one. They are stumbling all over themselves to say that measure N is not what it is. The comments would be humorous if not for the seriousness of the subject. The property is the largest undeveloped piece of land available in Eureka. You would think the new owners would be looking for the best possible use that would benefit the city. They put money into the boardwalk and the zoo knowing the value to the community. One would think that this thinking would be part of their decisions surrounding the Balloon Tract. What ever they do will make them money so why not go for the best possible good as a motivator? Is a Home Depot the best that their creative minds can come up with? Or is it really Arkley’s lingering anger at Bill Pierson for putting money toward a mayoral race 15 years ago? If that is true, it boggles the mind.

  40. October 8, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Among the many positive things that Measure N does is allow the people to voice their support of the Marina Center project. The results will be resounding !!

  41. humboldturtle
    October 8, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Resoundingly expensive, for sure.

  42. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    If Measure N (bought and paid for by SN) is essentially about allowing people to voice support for the Marina Center, what a waste of resources – embarrassing.

  43. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    I received a postcard mailing today pushing a “Yes” vote on Measure N. The picture showing the current state of the Balloon Track/Tract is captioned “Ballon Track Today.” Seems didn’t proofread their expensive literature.

  44. HiFiFan
    October 8, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Gotta love ya Hi Fi! You are dedicated to conversing with these dullards. Thank you for fighting the good fight. You give me hope that I’m not alone in a sea of dunderheads.

  45. the reasonable anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    I guess “Marina Center NOW!”, while wildly inaccurate, is a more catchy slogan than “Marina Center, maybe, or some other retail, possibly including WalMart, at some point in the not-too-distant future, say five years or so, if we can clear all the other legal and permitting hurdles and if the Coastal Commission gives it’s O.K.”

  46. GrowMart
    October 8, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    Would it change the discussion for you turds if it were determined that the “highest” and best use of this private property were a GrowDepot or FreakoHostel?

  47. October 8, 2010 at 6:31 pm


  48. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Well,OK, let’s suppose all hurdles are cleared and the Marina center is built. We will have more retail, some eating establishments and a few other types of development, right? Now, how many full time decent paying jobs have been created? What is the overall result of “added tax revenue” due to more retail? What other “highest and best use” development is lost? Who benefits from this? As a tax payer, and long time resident, how will this benefit me? I haven’t heard any information re: this issue that motivates me to think it is a winner. That location is such a jewel, it seems that it could put to better use than mostly retail. It’s a shame really.

  49. humboldturtle
    October 8, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Property does not have rights. People have rights.

  50. October 8, 2010 at 7:23 pm

    From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

    Home Depot’s rating was cut by the second analyst in three days.

    The Atlanta home improvement store was downgraded to underperform by Buckingham Thursday. It had been rated neutral.

    Tuesday, Goldman Sachs downgraded Home Depot to neutral from buy. Analysts there set the chain’s target price at $35, saying they expected more difficult sales and margin comparisons over the next two quarters.

    Buckingham set Home Depot’s target price at $27. Trading was flat for the day, with Home Depot closing at $31.74 a share.

    October 8, 2010 at 7:37 pm


    All that in the Tom Peter’s L.T.T.E. (post) and at the end, an endorsement to vote No on “N”……as if voting yes or no means a darn thing on Measure “N” as the letter expressed in written form.

    Too funny that short term memory loss contributes daily to the rhetoric involved in the huge ordeal called “LIFE” and its subordinating “IDEALISTIC POLITICAL VIEWS”.

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  52. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    If the measure is meaningless, why try to convince me to vote against it?

  53. humboldturtle
    October 8, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    Not tryin’ 7:55. Just tellin’.

  54. humboldturtle
    October 8, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Pro-N’ers are hopeless. Won’t learn, won’t stop.

  55. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    I say vote yes on N, get Arkley to clean it up, before he runs out of money or interest. I doubt home depot will ever be built there.

  56. October 8, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    Arkley is obligated to give it a real clean-up thanks to the federal lawsuit settlement. Measure N has no effect on the clean-up.

  57. Mucho Dinero
    October 8, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    Those who have the most money win!!! Right HiFi?

  58. High Finance
    October 8, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    Still no word from Larry Glass about measure N.

    I heard him say at the Rotary debate last Monday that he now has no objections to it at all.

  59. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    Can Arkley really afford to clean up the property? I sense the answer is no. Maybe he has a grand plan that we, the public, aren’t privy to. But, if not, he’s in a bind and back to square one.

  60. anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Larry Glass is on the right track. We really shouldn’t give it a thought. It’s not worth it.

  61. Anonymous
    October 8, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Larry may be on the right “track” but is it the right “tract?” – ha! I agree, it may be better to just ignore the hoopla. If I had the funds to run a campaign, it would be just that…No vote on N. What a ridiculous spectacle and colossal waste of time and money.

  62. Eric Kirk
    October 8, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    It’s practical effect may be meaningless, but it is a referendum on the proposal. Unfortunately, the opposition has spent too much time whining “fowl” and no time organizing or educating against it. The environmental movement has become addicted to lawsuits to the detriment of grassroots organizing, and it is hurting them badly in Eureka. The Security National Survey released back in 2006 should have been a wake-up call, but meeting after meeting has taken place and the spokespeople for organizations show up but they don’t even try to bring others along.

    Prop N will win big, and that is the failure of the Eureka progressive establishment, such as it is. There is all sorts of sound and fury over a meaningless road alteration in Richardson Grove with lots of ranting about big boxes and sprawl. But there are crickets when it comes to the fights that really matter on those issues, and this is one of them.

    Prop N may be legally meaningless, but the Coastal Commission will hear about it, and if Bonnie loses, they may very well take heed. Progressives have been brilliantly outplayed here and until they start thinking grassroots, they will lose and lose and lose. There is no excuse for conservatives winning in Eureka after the WalMart vote a decade ago and the subsequent Kerrigan wins.

  63. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 1:04 am

    Excellent juxtaposition, Eric, of the progressive lackluster response to Marina Center and it’s utter over-reaction to the road that is tangentially near the grove for which the region ‘Richardson Grove’ was given its name. I might add to that the progressives’ confused response to the Ridgewood development which should have them excited as the anti-developer’s development, but instead has Larry and other progressives opposing it. The progressive movement is going no where fast.

  64. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 1:12 am

    Sadly, I agree with both Eric and Anonymous 1:04. Not 100% – but there is enough confusion about the issues and the candidates that I fear for the outcome of the upcoming elections.

  65. Un-Named
    October 9, 2010 at 7:01 am

    I disagree, 11:29…regarding matters of the environment, protestors aren’t motivated by the immediate need to pay their rent and eat food every day. Opponents of measure N didn’t cough up $30,000 for a propoganda initiative. Most obviously, authors of measure N stand to make tons of money from the deal in the not-so-long run. Public proponents are paid supporters (it IS a caimpaign)…whereas to strike the initiative is thankless, self-motivated, and imposes on time required for making the bills.

    Not to sound condescending but…environmentalism isn’t a political party. If somebody started reeking havoc in your backyard with a chainsaw, or was going to build a highrise nextdoor, it wouldn’t be political affiliation that motivated you to do something about it. Any neighbors in the same situation would be acting on their own behalf…it’s not “progressives”…anybody saying the word “progressive” needs to check their head about how long they’ve been using the word…you watch too much TV. buzzbuzzbuzzwords and the reactions they get.

    Measure N is a rich loogy spit onto the poors’ plate (got $30k?). There’s no affiliation but to common sense in voting no.

    If you think somebody’s “hurting the cause” you’ve just let everybody know you’re not for the cause in the first place. That’s a cliche thing to say, but it only demonstrates ignorance of individuality and disrespects genuine concern. We are talking about altering our landscape permanently…damn straight it’s a concern if you, like me, want to live here as long as possible.

  66. JAG
    October 9, 2010 at 7:07 am

    “Sad” is the word of the day if you progressives hold up Kerrigan as your poster boy. He did nothing as an elected official. In his first election his handlers were a bunch of conservatives we would call “Tea Party” members today. He only became a prog after the “machine” got a hold him. In high school he lead the Young Republicans.

  67. Plain Jane
    October 9, 2010 at 7:47 am

    “Plain Jane 11.06am, you’re being too cute by half. If Measure N failed, yes technically RA could go before the council & get the zoning changed, but politically it would be impossible”

    Actually I’m too cute by double, but you’re right HiFi. Elected officials would never go against the will of the voters to please their sponsors. HAHAHA!

  68. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 8:11 am

    Or he could pick a different zoning that is better for the community.

    October 9, 2010 at 9:26 am

    The progressives (as if there is really a monolithic and specifically dedicated term, politically???) or those pinpointed as proggies sure seem to live lavish lifestyles too as retired senior citizen folks, current and former education administrators and other public employees with pension concerns, the many stuck-up and prissy types, etc….

    In fact, up in the 5th District, more signs keep going up for a specific candidate while news is about zilch. So, for choices, the 4th and 5th are down to two candidates – hardly a faction or collection of too many people to not get some news on. In fact, the thought must be that Cleary will win with Higgins’ votes, therefore no need to blog about the 5th District Election. After reviewing the debate on Tuesday, one would think that newsworthy results were collected. The voters up in the 5th District are being treated as clueless idiots who don’t deserve public relations. Anyhow, GOOD LUCK to the remaining two candidates in the venture to persuade voters while using mass money to buy election coverages and votes (At least it is not a Meg Whitman/ Goldman Sachs tainted pay-off).

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  70. High Finance
    October 9, 2010 at 9:59 am

    The liberals are already coming up with excuses & scapegoats for Measure N passing big.

    The real reason is, Eureka is not Arcata. Eureka is not a liberal town, they like to see developments that improve the town. Measure N will pass big because the big majority of Eurekans want the Marina Center, they look forward to Home Depot. They also realize that Home Depot is only one part of the overall MC project.

  71. Un-Named
    October 9, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Bleh, don’t get me started on the 5th district campaigns…more and more signs…another popularity contest among the wealthiest candidates, who hide as best they can until after the elections. Meanwhile, a candidate who actually makes himself immediately accessible to the public and insists on talking freely about local issues has to bow out? Disappointing to say the least.

  72. Un-Named
    October 9, 2010 at 10:02 am

    you’re right, high finance…home depot’s not the only thing on the menu. If the public knew more about what else was in store for them, it would be even less popular. Go door to door around south eureka and ask if they want a few hundred more neighbors coming and going all at once.

    October 9, 2010 at 10:12 am

    Is there still 2nd story housing units proposed? Or, is that mixed-use boondoggle done for now?


  74. Un-Named
    October 9, 2010 at 10:36 am

    The property owners have proven that “for now” applies to anything they say. No clone zones in humboldt, pleez.

  75. A-nony-mouse
    October 9, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    “I promise ther will be NO big box store on the Balloon Track” (CA 2002).
    And we’re supposed to trust them on this one?

    Why is anyone surprised that no one wants to waste their time and money on Measure N (the Non-measure) when there are so many other fights to fight? If it passes, the only thing it might do is make Randy’ head even bigger. Look at the bottom of any of their ads for N to see who is profiting from it. Paid for by Security National. It is about nothing more than ego strokes. This is exactly like what WalMart tried to do in ’99, an end-run around following the law. Vote No or don’t vote at all on this one. It isn’t worth worrying about.

    Several posters also noted that it’s an attempt to frame the city council election. Have you seen Brady’s ads with her standing at the fence? She tries to take credit for the cleanup that BayKeeper’s lawsuit forced out of Security National. Hilarious! Some people qwould claim all good things were their fault if they thought they could fool you into believing it.

    The biggest issue over the Balloon Track
    has always been that it be properly cleaned up. What happens next is for the future to decide. For now the goal has been met. Once Security National actually does what it was told to do, we can renew the arguement about what gets built. Firt things first!
    Don’t expect to see ‘For Sale’ signs on the fence but don’t be suprised wnen it happens.

  76. A-nony-mouse
    October 9, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    HiFi makes a point in his limited way. The MC may temporarily increase Euraka’s saless tax revenue, but only at the expense of other nearby towns. If the only thing that RA can offer us is a zero-sum game where our only chance to survive is to raid our neighbors, then something is drasticly wrong. There are too many ways to bring in NEW money. RA’s way only guarantees more money will leave the city and county for corporate headquarters.

  77. Goldie
    October 9, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Face it, we need a new billionaire.

  78. Bolithio
    October 9, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    A-non is right. First things first, the clean-up.

    That said, NO one knows what will happen in the future regarding the BT. Its uncertain if retail space would be filled. Its uncertain as to a Big Box anchor even being interested in Eureka. Its uncertain how a big box will effect the area.

    These uncertainties exist for any development, be it high-end condos or the fabled light industrial/manufacturing.

  79. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    “Meanwhile, a candidate who actually makes himself immediately accessible to the public and insists on talking freely about local issues has to bow out?”

    Who are you talking about that bowed out?

  80. mresquan
    October 9, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Hifi wrote,”Measure N will pass big because the big majority of Eurekans want the Marina Center, they look forward to Home Depot. They also realize that Home Depot is only one part of the overall MC project.”

    What a bullshit statement,as Home Depot has no intent whatsoever on coming here.It is all about WalMart.No on N means No on WalMart.

  81. Eric Kirk
    October 9, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Eureka is not a liberal town,

    Actually, it really is.

  82. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    What if Arkley can’t afford to do the clean-up? What then? His finances are not what they were when he first bought the Balloon Track nor when the Marina Center was conceived.

  83. Gimme_A_Break
    October 9, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Its kind of hystrical watching this blog with any mention of Measure N…from saying its coopting the election process to telling voters theyre too stupid to decide the issues by ballot! So what if it changes nothing but Your minds. It will be a perfect illustration of how small is your minority for bashing Marina Center or ‘anything Arkey’. Where I come from Rob and Cherie are quite popular.

    Its time to show the stripes of this community for what they are. Divided yes, but we grudgingly listen to one another and attempt to incorporate Your views. (that wasn’t my idea but they didn’t ask me)

    This will be the most telling election of perhaps all time but will our legislators take the hint or in the case Dems hold on to the majority-will Pelosi see the wisdom of including some very good ideas from the GOP instead of excluding them 100% Just Because they are from the GOP.

    Voters are pissed off because its on BOTH sides-nothing ever gets done because we have to block the other guy at all costs. Time’s up on that line of thinking and if the ballot box doesn’t send a loud enough message maybe the unemployment line will.

  84. Jeff Bird
    October 9, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    The Coastal Commission is there to make sure development along the coastline is done in environmentally appropriate ways, correct? Why does the author of this article say that it is the Coastal Commission who will rule on zoning? The CC is now in charge of environmental regulation and zoning along the coast?
    Heraldo, is this correct?

  85. humboldturtle
    October 9, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    I think the pro-N-ers overestimate how much people really like spot zoning. Look up Eureka’s history of special ordinances; they’re online. For decades they were used sparingly when the city needed a new law. The last 20 years dozens of special ordinances were passed to allow ocal developers to skip the general plan and re-zone to suit. The corruption is on teh record, and obvious.

  86. Living In Eureka
    October 9, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Things must have gotten nasty again at TS. They pulled the blog run on Tom’s letter! Tom your letter was great. Thank you for taking the time to inform.

    Hi Fi, Sometimes I think you need serious medication! I’m voting No on “N” because, IT DOES NOTHING!!!! Of course, voting yes does nothing also. I’m just tired of the Arkley bullshit!

  87. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    “The real reason is, Eureka is not Arcata. Eureka is not a liberal town, they like to see developments that improve the town.”

    Arcata has had way more development than Eureka in the last 10 years.

  88. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    Im voting a strictly Dem ticket all the way and Im still voting Yes on N because Im tired of politics as usual. We are especially tired of this town riding every single idea out of here on a rail.

    Why is Shafer’s Hardware supporting the Marina Center and Pierson’s not? ‘Simple’ politics.

  89. humboldturtle
    October 9, 2010 at 6:59 pm


  90. October 9, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    We are especially tired of this town riding every single idea out of here on a rail.

    This town is ruled by the Marina Center cheer-leading squad who trade business as usual for favors for the few. The measure is just more theatrics.

  91. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    I can’t imagine Measure N losing – possible, but unlikely, imo. Most voters are not reading this blog or looking beyond the fact that someone seems to be willing to invest in Eureka (whatever the truth may be). Most people have not experienced the Arkleys personally and, therefore, trust them.

  92. mresquan
    October 9, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    “We are especially tired of this town riding every single idea out of here on a rail.”

    So where is that industrial park that the non liberal majorities that have sat in council chambers have said they would take the lead on developing?

  93. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Shafers lost my business the day they stuck a big Marian Brady sign on the fence

  94. humboldturtle
    October 9, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Measure N is not really meaningless. It means Eureka will put a spot-zone on the ballot for thirty grand.

  95. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    living in 5:27, he is already on it, the meds that is

  96. High Finance
    October 9, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    Eric Kirk, 2.58pm, we will see.

    Perhaps if Heraldo has any balls he will post that question on November 3rd.

  97. Anonymous
    October 9, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    Anonymous, 8:48 It’s always interesting to me – the number of businesses posting political signs – kind of risky, but I assume they must feel strongly. I too frequent Shafer’s and was disappointed to see the Brady sign – but not surprised.

  98. Eric Kirk
    October 10, 2010 at 12:54 am

    Eric Kirk, 2.58pm, we will see.

    We already saw in 1998. If information is properly introduced to Eureka voters, they will vote the same way this time. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like it’s happening.

  99. Truth Be Told
    October 10, 2010 at 9:22 am

    Of course Shafer’s put a Brady Bunch sign on their fence. Shafers, Fortuna Ace and the new giant Willow Creek Ace are all owned by hyperconservative Jack Rieke, who hates Larry Glass, Linda Atkins and all things liberal. Anything that smacks of change or relinquishing the Good Ol’ Boys’ hold on power, he is resolutely against.

    I notice that he studiously avoids eye contact in his store with any person he perceives to be “differnt”.

    Yes, you can bet that a portion of every dollar spent in any of these three stores is going back to fund Jack’s reactionary agenda.

    Boycott Shafer’s, Fortuna and Willow Creek ACE hardware stores – whenever possible!!!

  100. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Funny that right wing reactionaries who own businesses in our county are the first to complain about the pot culture. Let them be the first to put up a sign in their business that says “Pot Money Not Welcome Here”.

  101. Un-Named
    October 10, 2010 at 10:04 am

    HAHA so true 9:54. I can’t tell you how many conservo/republo business owners around here I’ve heard say, verbatim, “it spends the same!”. Demonstrative that any winger perspective is all talk.

  102. A-nony-mouse
    October 10, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Jack Rieke’s Shafers Hardware is like a deer in the gunsites. Why would he, of all people, support a Home Depot in Eureka. He’ll be the first to go under if that happens. Soory, Jack. I hope you will enjoy forced retirement.

    Meanwhile, all you big Measure N supporters (Hi, Randy). Turnout in Eurka elections is rarely much over 50% That means in Measure N passes by, oh say 55% to 45%, it means that something like 55% of 50% actually voted for it. That means that only 27.5% of Eureka voters would have approved the meaasure. Hardly a “vast majority”, wouldn’t you say. You’ll hear Randy crowing like a happy rooster if it passes but keep it in perspective. Even a win DOES NOT mean it has universal approval. Just another way in which it’s a meaningless popularity contest. Have fun, boys.

  103. A-nony-mouse
    October 10, 2010 at 10:50 am

    (some day I’ll learn to type!)
    Doesn’t Randy Gans strike you as the kid in grade school who tried to lord it over all the other kids because he had a new pencil or because he had TWO sandwiches in his lunch? He appears to prefer bullying to negotiation and compromise. “Nyah,Nyah, Nyah, I’m better than you are. I won the vote by a tiny margin so I get to rule the world.” Wasn’t here a time when reasonable people actually sat down and talked about this kind of stuff like the effects of huge development on our community? Or am I just imagining things?
    Guard your lunch money. Randy and his bought and paid for Measure N are coming. Must be fun to have money.

  104. Truth Be Told
    October 10, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Jack Rieke is an ideologue who would rather make less at his booming store in Henderson Center than to ally with *gasp!* LIB-RALS against a Big Box home improvement store coming to Eureka.

    I’m really not surprised that this guy is one of Arkley’s biggest cheerleaders. He’s probably made $5 million already (or more, judging by the daily volume at his three stores). So, now it’s time for Lib’ral Payback, time to use up that money, David Koch-style, in an all-out assault against the Dark Forces of Progress.

  105. High Finance
    October 10, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Yes Mouse 10.42am, that might be true. But you forgot to mention that, in your example, it would also mean only 22.5% of the people opposed Measure N.

    Which would then show the opponents are a tiny minority of Eureka.

  106. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Yes, A-nony-mouse, to your comments about Randy Gans. But don’t forget that he’s also emulating the bullying tactics of his boss. That’s how they operate.

  107. KirkleftNright
    October 10, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Eric: Those were gutsy statments. Progressives will have many loses on their plates to digest. Measure “N”, Bass over Neely by a huge margin, Jager in a landslide, Newman by 10% and maybe even the upset by Brady over Larry. Then what? And all of these are likely scenarios.

  108. Ed
    October 10, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Maybe Jack knows something we don’t. Maybe HD isn’t interested. Wallmart wouldn’t bother him as much.

  109. Truth Be Told
    October 10, 2010 at 11:31 am

    If Jack Rieke had been alive 150 years ago, he would’ve been the guy dashing across the Civil War battlefield, bayoneting Yankees left and right in defense of “his way of life.”

    “Till they pry it from my cold, dead fingers!”

  110. Plain Jane
    October 10, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Maybe we need a list of the political persuasions of local business owners. Those who would destroy our local economy by supporting big boxes (any of them) shouldn’t be rewarded with patronage from liberals. If Eureka takes a sharp turn to the right with the election next month and elects the Arkley stooges, this liberal will be shopping in Arcata almost exclusively.

  111. mresquan
    October 10, 2010 at 11:51 am

    “this liberal will be shopping in Arcata almost exclusively.”

    As will most of Eureka’s anti-liberals,as they are the ones most responsible for allowing Arcata to become the sole business hub of the county.

  112. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 11:53 am

    You wish it were meaningless. It will show one way or the other what people think about the balloon tract being built on using Arkley plans. If people vote for it, I believe it says a lot.

  113. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    It will also say a lot about how many people vote based on signage and propaganda, not on the facts of an issue.

  114. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    One thing you never seem to crow about is the large voter turnouts we experience much higher than state average. Put your tail between your legs after the election and keep showing up to meetings…you have never been shut out of the process.

    We need a poll. Stand up to be counted how much the community supports BayKeeper getting a payday for nothing-did they clean anything up no. Have they ever? No.

  115. October 10, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Never going to set foot in Shafer’s again until the ownership changes. I vote with my pocketbook along with my ballot.

  116. StraightUp
    October 10, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    I’m with you, Foxstudio. Damn I hate driving that extra mile to Pierson’s but I’ll do it. At least when you get there they have what you want whereas I often leave Shaffer’s empty-handed.

  117. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    12:39 give the folks in Eureka some credit. Propaganda works two ways. They want it or they don’t.

  118. Anonymous
    October 10, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    12:39 – Generally, I would agree. But, in this case the main source of information (or propaganda) comes from the Measure N supporters – and they’ve framed it to suit their purposes (obviously). I just don’t think the majority of folks in Eureka know exactly what “it” is.

  119. Eric Kirk
    October 10, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Eric: Those were gutsy statments. Progressives will have many loses on their plates to digest. Measure “N”, Bass over Neely by a huge margin, Jager in a landslide, Newman by 10% and maybe even the upset by Brady over Larry. Then what? And all of these are likely scenarios.

    Well, Glass, Kuhnel, and LeVallee are all strong community leaders, and one, two, or three of them could win on their individual merits. But they should be in a much better position.

    I mean really, the only attempt to mobilize the grassroots in Eureka is Democracy Unlimited, and they’re consistently being slammed in the progressive circular firing squad over pretty typical sectarian crap. Not that I’ve agreed with all of their positions. That’s not the point. The point is you have some charismatic progressive personalities, fertile progressive soil, but the lack of ability and/or will to cultivate it. It’s a shame that the rest of the county becomes more progressive with each election while Eureka’s progressives remain mired in sectarian squabbles and lack of organization. That there is no organized opposition to prop N on the lame grounds that it is “meaningless” is a testament to the lack of energy from progressive leadership and profoundly amateurish understanding of politics.

    The nuclear free zone initiatives of the 1980s were also “meaningless.” They were also politically devastating. Back then progressives knew how to win some political fights, in a national climate which was far to the right of now, tea parties and all.

  120. Anon
    October 10, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Democracy Unlimited should be leading the No on N campaign, but instead they choose to campaign for a constitutional amendment to ban corporate personhood. What’s up with that? Will they do nothing while the local billionaire’s corporation tries to run their town? Kind of crazy.

  121. Plain Jane
    October 10, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    The whole county should have opposed Measure N since it’s all the other towns that will suffer from lost revenue if a big box does what the proponents claim it will, draw consumer dollars from the entire county, negatively impacting their businesses and not just building supplies. If you’re driving to Eureka to buy a sink, you might as well do the rest of your shopping which is probably why so many Eureka business owners are supporting Measure N. It’s a short sighted agenda since destroying businesses in neighboring towns destroys your customers there as well.

  122. humboldturtle
    October 11, 2010 at 8:03 am

    Seems to me the left is avoiding a money pit by ignoring N and concentrating on candidates.

    N is for Naieve: Vote Yes, get nothing.

  123. A-nony-mouse
    October 11, 2010 at 9:39 am

    Kirk must think we all love tilting at windmills. It’s like being bombarded with marshmellows. Measure N means NOTHING. Even if it passes, as I pointed out above, it will only be by a small percentage of the registered voters because rarely does a majority even vote. So why should we waste our time and money on this political death-trap?
    Progressives should use their time and money to elect a council that will listen and act for the best interests of the community, not just the BIG MONEY.
    This is the extent of my activities opposing Measure N. Vote NO on this boondoggle. Don’t sell Eureka to the highest bidder. There are plenty of ways for SN to build their project within the law without trying to do an end-run just like WalMart tried.
    Again, Vote NO. Tell ’em it’s our town, too!!!

  124. Tired of PJ
    October 11, 2010 at 9:50 am

    I believe we are going to see the failed progressive agenda removed at both levels. People have had enough and want to go to real progress not socialism. It gone Eric and it will not be back for a while.

  125. Un-Named
    October 11, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Security National sees open space as a commodity to fill with as much stuff as possible. Stuff that generates the most upward cashflow aka dense residential and commercial…exactly what they want to build on every piece of community property they own. That’s their business, it’s not even a secret. They’ve said it over and over and over again. They also say, over and over and over again, that it’s for the sake of OUR income! Every “marina center” already out there is full of, and surrounded by, people busting ass just to make ends meet. People are falling off the map all the time because they can’t keep up with rising costs thanks to that kind of development. Screw those politics-buying, closed-door dealing, nationalizing shysters. They don’t want to live there, they don’t want their kids to live there, they don’t want to work there, they don’t want their kids to work there. FUGGUM!!!!

  126. Carol
    October 11, 2010 at 10:26 am

    It has not left. There is still a left, left.

  127. Bolithio
    October 11, 2010 at 10:36 am

    People have had enough and want to go to real progress not socialism.

    So, Im actually for the MC, but Ive had enough of what ever you want to call anti-progressive people whining about socialism. Do you even know what socialism is? How the fuck would we ever have socialism? If your a conservative, and you find the word socialism creeping into your talking points, ask your self – wait, did I really think of that, or is someone thinking for me….

  128. Bolithio
    October 11, 2010 at 10:41 am

    Wrong mouse. Sure it may not have a huge impact if it passes. But if it fails, it will mean much more. Can you ever see the CCC approving all of this if this measure fails? Ya right.

    Also we are not wasting our money on this; they [SN] are.

  129. Plain Jane
    October 11, 2010 at 10:48 am

    If you think the CCC will vote based on local popular opinion rather than state law, you are probably wrong. Of far more importance to Arkley is getting Neely off the CCC in the hopes a pro-developer will be appointed in her place and Measure N is just another weapon in his arsenal to bash Neely without his roster of politicians having to list it as donations.

    October 11, 2010 at 11:06 am



    Just curious.

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  131. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 11:08 am

    I agree with 2:29 – it’s true that many eureka folks aren’t aware of what the project actually is. I think the message is simple: Measure N = Big Box on the Bay. I’d agree that it’s worthy of an campaign…No on N.

  132. Plain Jane
    October 11, 2010 at 11:35 am

    I have no idea, Jeff. Maybe Chris Crawford or HiFi know.

  133. Tired of PJ
    October 11, 2010 at 11:44 am

    : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

    Yes Bolithio, I am well aware of socialism. I myself have about had enough of mouthy folks on this site full of progressive mouthpieces like Mark and PJ, saying anyone who expresses an opinion other than theirs listens to some form of TV or Radio conservative talk shit. Its funny the koolaid drinkers calling everyone else a drinker.

    If you look at what is happening now in this county and country and the definition you will see a movement in that direction. Also if you read Erics site you will see he is a big proponent of that form of government.

    I believe that N is a way of showing that folks are in favor of the MS. The thing it will do is keep SN pushing to get it approved, as is the will of the majority of the local people.

    I’m all for progress but what we have here is regressive bullshit. Show me one thing that has been done on the bay to increase jobs. How about anything in this county. Its dieing and is being held under by the supposed progressives.

  134. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    “It’s dieing and is being held under by the supposed progressives”

    I agree with some of what TiredofPJ says (I also tire of PJ), but this last sentence is utter BS.

    It’s being held under by it’s remote location and a crappy economy. If good money could be made using our port or exporting our resources, it would happen. Companies would either jump through the enviro hoops or work the politics. That’s what happens in areas that have reasonable transportation infrastructure and populations to support the goods and services.

    I’m a bit tired of this, “it would be wonderful if not for “blank”. With blank being either progressives or conservatives.

    I’d love to see my kids stay and work here at great paying jobs. But, it ain’t gonna happen unless they are creative enough to carve out a little niche, get a govt job, or get lucky with being hired by the few companies that can make a go of it here. That’s a consequence of this small rural, out of the way location. Love it and make a low-income go of it here or leave, but don’t expect it to become a vibrant economy. The natural resources booms (timber, mining, and fishing) are gone and it’s not the fault of progressives or conservatives – it’s limited resources and a global economy.

    OK, end of rant.

  135. Bolithio
    October 11, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    If you think the CCC will vote on State Law as opposed their political discretion, your probably wrong.

  136. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    My spouse and I have made a very comfortable living here. Some of my relatives have as well. People who have a license in something, be it hairdresser, teacher, doctor, etc can make a living in most towns. People who are willing to work outside their own usual job or profession and will work hard can live about anywhere. People who just plain have a great work ethic can live here and just about anywhere. Those qualities are what is required in almost any community and from what I have experienced, people who complain that there are no jobs here also have trouble in large cities, with greater competition, getting a job. Stop using the excuse that there are no jobs in places like this and start thinking “what could I do to make some money?”. Most people I know who are successful in supporting themselves and those who might be considered “wealthy” on this blog are those who have more than one job type or are willing to spend a lot of time doing the work they do. I see it every day and I see those who give up, not finding the perfect job they envisioned. Sometimes work is not that fulfilling or fun but it is what you have to do to put food on the table.

    October 11, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    True 1:29 pm,

    but, separate the self-employed from those who are just employees for another self-employed or business (outsourcings, 3rd party service contractors, etc.). The problem is that more than just a few of the whole of the groups or types you use as an example are being manipulated by the agency jurisdictions to the point that economic loss, thus overall life success, is damaged. This is the part of local governance which hurts its own commuuntiy through political greeds to meet mandates and paperwork. People tend to understand how little security they have. Often, due to obstructionisms and manipulations, self-employed (small businesses) businesses become financially emotional and distressed and that takes away from their abiltiy and desire to achieve somethinbg positive in the workplace due to understanding the previous graftings and takings which brought significant economic injury to the trust a person has with other entities in life. Many people, once “jacked”, never commit back. It is not as if less wealthy people can’t justify their re-actions to socio-political/economic abuses.

    Anyhow, must be why immigration is so sought after for “cheap (HUSH HUSH) labor”.

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  138. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    There are 595 open positions in Humboldt County Right Now…..

    President Barack Obama nominated Peter Diamond to the Fed in late April. But Senate Republicans have blocked his nomination, questioning his practical experience, as well as the conclusions of his research.

    In the early 1980s, Diamond wrote a paper that found federal unemployment insurance helps companies land job seekers with the right skills by allowing the unemployed to hold out for the right opportunity.

    Some Republicans argue that extending unemployment benefits – as Congress has done on multiple occasions since the recession – can actually make unemployment worse by taking away the incentives to finding work. Liberal economists dismiss that.

    The Diamond-Mortensen-Pissarides model, a frequently used tool to estimate how unemployment benefits, interest rates, the efficiency of employment agencies and other factors can affect the labor market.

    Taken together, their work has suggested, for instance, that unemployment benefits can have the unintended consequences of prolonging unemployment. That’s because the aid can make it less costly to be out of work – even as it improves employers’ chances of finding the right workers, as Diamond’s research concluded.

  139. A-nony-mouse
    October 11, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    You just don’t get it, HiFi. It’s not ‘Socialism’ and it’s not wild eyed radical left philosophy. It’s an economic FACT of LIFE that corporate big box stores TAKE MONEY OUT of our local economy and leave us poorer for having done so. In some ways it has the same effect as the loss of a pulp mill or a run of salmon. They all WEAKEN our economy by REMOVING money, whether it’s by sending it to corporate HQ or because it’s just no longer there.
    The ONLY answer is to be creative and encourage efforts to BUILD things for local and export markets. If you’d read that annual economic report, you might be amazed at just how many small businesses there are growing right here in Humboldt County. Sucking money into the vast corporate maw only weakens the chances of these start-ups to succeed. It’s ECON 101, not rocket science.

  140. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    Wonder if Peter Diamond winning a Nobel Prize in Economics will be enough to convince those blocking his nomination to Federal Reserve Board that he’s qualified!

  141. Walt
    October 11, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Naaahhh. . .them noble guys’re buncha pinko faggot furriners. Glenn sez he stinks, that’s good anuff fer me!

  142. High Finance
    October 11, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Mouse, do you understand that vast majority of businesses take most of their money out of Eureka?

    Take for example a restaurant. The gross profit of a restaurant is about 60% and the net income is about 5%.

    A non local restaurant, like the Red Lion, sends that 45% out of the area (40% for the food & 5% for the owner). A local restaurant, like Mazzotti’s sends 40% (the food cost) out of the area. The numbers vary slightly depending on the type of business but the idea is the same. The difference between a local & a non-local business sending money out of the area is very slight.

  143. High Finance
    October 11, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    Again those numbers were just for a quick illustration. The amount of money that both local & non-local send out of the area is actually much higher when you factor in income taxes, sales taxes, PG&E bills, advertising and so on.

  144. Truth in information
    October 11, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    Hi Fi hasn’t read anything newer that Hoover era economics. We can create a workable economy here if we get beyond retail and Big Boxes as some kind of savior. If we get a council that will start looking at other economic engines and seriously start looking for companies that fit the new model, we will work our way out of this hole. If the new council sets an agenda for the new manager of finding small to mid sized manufacturing and an industrial park for them to set up shop, it can be done. Arcata has done it and they are faring pretty well in these hard times. Eureka has turned it’s back on real economic development and goes for broke looking for bigger and bigger retail and it has left us “broke”. Hi Fi is regurgitating a failed and worn out economic concept. It got us where we currently are, and that is nowhere. The lights have been turned out or dimmed on timber and fishing and it is now time to find a workable way out that creates a REAL future for Eureka.

  145. Anonymous
    October 11, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Maybe more restaurants are beginning to subscribe to this model, HiFi. I would not be surprised. If so, it would help keep more money local.

    Check out the HSU and CR book of the year selection “Plenty – Eating Locally on the 100 Mile Diet” –

  146. Plain Jane
    October 11, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    Some restaurants buy a large percentage of their food locally and some buy none of it locally. HiFi, like always, is blowing smoke. The rest of his factors are irrelevant because every business has to pay taxes, energy bills, etc.

    October 11, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Plenty of start-up businesses are folding within a year as well. Every year, there is the argument of all these new businesses; yet, why do so many falter?

    Answer – Costs are way too high for non-guaranteed consumptions.

    Hey, just like college degrees and jobs not being guaranteed, just like 30 yearhome mortgages purchased in an over-valued market where one who loses ye job is ye one who loses ye house since not having a 30 year job guarantees lack of money to pay for liabilities that are irrespective of how much money one loses when they lose their job. Whew.


  148. Eric Kirk
    October 11, 2010 at 11:28 pm



    Read the report. It’s sitting there, waiting in vain for progressives to once again draw attention to it.

  149. Plain Jane
    October 12, 2010 at 6:35 am

    I thought Jeff was asking about how much the MC cheerleaders claimed would be spent in Eureka rather than other towns, Eric, but maybe not.

    October 12, 2010 at 9:04 am

    Thank You Eric,

    Here is a copy and past from page ii,

    “The slow population growth in Eureka and Humboldt County, combined with relatively low
    median income levels and sluggish employment growth, may limit the ability of the trade
    area to support new retail development.”

    Yet, in other parts of the report, the information is on either side of the above statement.

    Existing is stated has being affected AGAIN and that the affected will have to find other niches to stay in business.

    I’ll have to spend further time this evening.

    Thanks again. Population increases in Humboldt can’t make up much of any difference from what I can initially see.

    My thoughts were that increased population lessens the number of customers lost to existing businesses when new businesses become on-line. Yet, only if the increase in people is significant. Humboldt really has never had any significant population increases that I am aware of in modern times.


  151. Eric Kirk
    October 12, 2010 at 9:51 am

    I believe the study says that in order for a typical Home Depot to exist in Humboldt County it must seize about 70 percent of the existing market, resulting in a net loss of jobs.

    When I spoke with a couple of Security National representatives a few years ago, one of their criticisms of the study was that it is based on paper income and does not take into consideration the dope money. I thought it was profound that the viability of a Home Depot is premised on the marijuana industry, and I wondered if that is how it was presented to the Home Depot execs. It’s a fallacy however. The money from growers themselves is limited and any multipliers the marijuana money generates will have a paper trail the Bay Area Foundation should have been able to track. Not to mention the fact that the price of marijuana was twice what is is now, and not even in real dollars, so the numbers may even be worse for a Home Depot’s impact.

    I wish there was an open discussion of the economic viability of a Home Depot off of the blogs. Somehow it reached the people of Eureka for the WalMart vote, probably because the study was commissioned by Dave Tyson himself, or at least the cover letter is addressed to him.

    I can tell you that due to bad experiences with Home Depot I won’t be shopping there. I will pay more money for an alternative, even if Pierson’s is forced out of business (which I doubt since they have niche markets).

    But the message is not getting out there. According to the only study released to the public, a Home Depot will cost Humboldt County jobs and income. There should be “no on N” signs out there which read “save jobs.” Forget about the clean-up issues. All SN had to do was agree to the clean-up by Bay Keeper standards, thereby removing the one public issue which might have cut into N’s support. Now what?

  152. Un-Named
    October 12, 2010 at 10:04 am

    Good points erik…my own dealings with the likes has shown me the same extent to which they scout locations. Somewhere in the depths of Home Depot’s corporate headquarters is a piece of paper drawn up by very high paid number crunchers documenting exactly how much business they WILL take away from surrounding locals, based on the entire history of the current market and projected well into the future. That’s business 101. No secret, no conspiracy. They want competitors to go out of business. They profit HUGE from sprawl. It’s amazing that their loyalty to locality is given any credibility in the first place.

  153. Brattle
    October 12, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    It appears that Arkley bought the property without factoring in the costs of a proper cleanup. He gambled on Eureka being lawless enough to accept his flim-flam environmental report instead of the real thing.

    He gambled; he lost. He will keep losing in court if he keeps playing flim-flam. Prop N is for what? A “resounding” balm to his ego? A vote for lawlessness? Italy’s Silvio Berlusconi as Eureka’s model of government?

  154. Anonymous
    October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm

    Prop N is probably largely an ego move for Arkley, unless you agree with those who believe he is hoping to influence the local elections via the Measure.

    I agree that Arkley didn’t accurately factor in the costs of a proper clean-up. From what I understand, he’s not current on many existing debts. How can he fund either the clean-up or the Marina Center project? I don’t see Security National moving ahead on the Balloon Track for quite some time.

  155. A-nony-mouse
    October 12, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    Someone needs to send old HiFi back to school. Local businesses have a much larger recirculation rate than corporate big boxes. Locals buy many goods and services locally which the BBs do not. Locals use a local bookkeeper or CPA. They probably buy office supplies or cleaning services locally. Their employees also use local goods and services.
    The Corporate big box boys pay the least possible in wages, sell cheap goods which return less to the community in sales tax, use minimum staffing, and ship in almost all goods and services. I don’t have the reference right in front of me but I recall that it’s something like 45% of local business income recirculates locally while only 15% of the corporate income stays here. Sure, we already have too many corporate chains here but that doesn’t mean giving it all to them will make anything better.
    If chain store shopping is the be-all and end-all of your existence, HiFi, may I suggest a move to Hilltop Drive in Redding. While you’re there , try to find Redding. It doesn’t exist any more. Tract developments and chain stores; now there’s a formula for a wonderful community!

  156. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 6:26 am

    A point I have tried to make repeatedly, Anony. Redding is a giant strip mall with every chain store and franchise restaurant in existence, but they are in the same fiscal shape as the City of Eureka with a home foreclosure epidemic. Obviously excessive retail is not the answer to balancing a city’s budget or living wage jobs, but this failed model is all the Arkley roster of candidates has to offer. Our local media has been extremely derelict in their duties of educating the people. I would bet most people don’t remember or never knew about the study Tyson commissioned which showed Eureka is over-saturated with retail and the consequences of big boxes on an economy like ours.

  157. High Finance
    October 13, 2010 at 8:58 am

    Yes, local businesses do buy more products & use more local services Mouse. What I am saying is that the difference is exaggerated in the minds of people & in the media. The difference is maybe 1 or 2%

    For example, those local businesses buy the vast majority of those office products from Staples even when they’re not buying from Office Depot on-line.

    But local or chain, they both use local janitors, local plumbers on so on.

  158. the reasonable anonymous
    October 13, 2010 at 9:11 am

    I suspect 1 or 2% is a pretty low estimate, but even if accurate, keep in mind that even 1 or 2% of many millions of dollars adds up to a lot of money being siphoned away from the local community…not good.

  159. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 9:47 am

    …if it’s a retail business, what gets put on the shelves is vastly different. If it’s a service business, the means to their end is more locally affiliated. This is in addition to the fact that a national or franchise has very tight control over how the business operates. A business owned locally has infinitely more headroom to accomodate locality.

    Hi-Fi is absolutely correct overall though, local businesses keep more money local. Good job hifi!

  160. A-Nony-Mouse
    October 13, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Gee, I wonder how Pacific Paper stays in business?
    Or Leon’s or Gosselin’s, or Jitter Beans, or a hundred other local stores that offer something the chains don’t; service and choice tailored to local needs. Yeah, we all shop at Costco once in awhile (I’ve never shopped at Target!) but I bet I have the smallest load in my cart, usually an unusual food item or a prescription for my dog. Use local businesses whenever possible. It makes us all more properous.

  161. A-Nony-Mouse
    October 13, 2010 at 10:22 am

    That’s “PROSPEROUS”, said the famous flying fingers.

  162. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 10:25 am

    From the big box study

    “The best scenario for existing retail sales outlets would be a “no build scenario,” with no new competition from either a discount general merchandise store or home improvement center, and increasing retail sales due to increases in population and per capita disposable

    “A new big-box home improvement center in Eureka would likely have a greater impact on existing stores in both the City and other parts of the County, since they have not previously faced this kind of competition, and the relative proportion of total building materials/farm implements sales going to this single outlet would be greater than for a general merchandise store. Furthermore, the projected increases in sales in this category are not nearly as great as for general merchandise, meaning that more sales would be
    captured from existing outlets rather than future increases in this category.”

    “Interviews with a local hardware store, sporting goods store, music retailer, and auto parts supplier indicate that purchases from local suppliers (i.e., Northern California) range from 20 percent (hardware store) to 75 percent (music retailer).”

    “The data presented in this chapter reveal slow population growth in Eureka and Humboldt County, combined with relatively low median income levels and sluggish employment
    growth, that may limit the ability of the trade area to support new retail development.”

    The summary of stakeholders (Eureka Chamber of Commerce, Henderson Center Merchants, Humboldt Realtors, Eureka Mains Street)

    “A common theme among those interviewed was concern over impacts on smaller, locally-owned businesses. Many were concerned about the ability of local merchants to compete with large national chains. There was also concern about the commitment of non-local owners to the community, as well as about a net loss of jobs.”

    “New Big-Box Store in the City of Eureka. In this scenario, a major general
    discount merchandiser or a major discount home improvement center opens within the City boundaries. In this scenario, the total retail sales will remain the same as projected in the baseline scenario for Humboldt County; because of the County’s relative isolation and lack of current leakage of overall retail sales (see discussion above), sales in a new outlet would almost all be captured from existing outlets.”

    So the study determined that almost ALL sales at a new big box would come from already existing businesses because there is very little “leakage” from shoppers going to other areas to shop.

  163. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 10:34 am

    The examples are a-plenty. Compare the differences between any local nursery to our un-local big box’s garden centers. Compare the grocery stores. Compare the hardware stores..miller’s and pierson’s ratio of quality products on their shelves over flimsy knockoffs is easily 5-1…opposite at sears, ace, khols…horrible selection overall at home depot, you get 10 chainsaws with plastic flywheels for every one built solid…somebody spends 5 times as much over 5 years replacing cheap hardware that costs half as much as a quality product…etc. etc. etc.

    Hifi misplaced the decimal by a ten spot, easy. It’s absurd to advocate a national enterprise over a local one. It’s horrible how the nationals are using the word “local” to strut their stuff. Chevron isn’t “locally owned”…subway and starbucks aren’t “locally owned”…etc.

  164. A-Nony-Mouse
    October 13, 2010 at 10:39 am

    While I have you here, let’s discuss the notion of creating enough jobs that our children will never have to leave. It’s the siren song of one faction in our local politics. It is also impossible and, probably undesireable as well. Our kids WANT to go experience the world. Many, depending on the field they choose, need to travel and move to other places. Some may work in banking, wildlife management, business, engineering, or even (gasp!) government. Little of that happens here so off they go, regardless of the noises made by some pro-growth at any cost politicians. As long as we keep breeding, they’ll keep leaving. It’s a fact of life and certainly healthy for those kids. If we could provide that many jobs, our economy would be so overheated that a crash would be certain.

    So the next time you hear someone running for office and trying to convince you the other guy is failing because “our kids can’t stay here”, tell him/her to find better things to talk about. You can bet your bottom dollar they’re backed by someone who stands to gain handsomely by selling you on their development as the salvation of Eureka, not someone who gives a damn about our kids and their futures. Let’s be realistic and put this old myth to rest.

  165. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 11:04 am

    …also, infill of jobs is what makes them strong. To suddenly introduce a hundred minimum wage jobs into an area knocks down the dollar value of everybody who’s already been working for minimum wage locally. A local business is suddenly less capable of giving its lowest paid employees a raise. An area’s quality of life is only as good as its lowest paid contributors’ comfort of living, IMO.

  166. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 11:17 am

    …also also, a-nony-mous puts it well, a point that I have a hard time making. How many of you posting on these humboldt blogs are originally from here? I’m not…butI don’t feel hypocritical saying “cap it as best possible”. My old home town went to shit really fast because of all the measure n style politics.

  167. High Finance
    October 13, 2010 at 11:35 am

    OK Unnamed, let’s compare the grocery stores. A local one is hard to find, but let’s use Myrtle Ave Market vs Safeway for comparison.

    They both buy all their food from the same sources. They both have Humb Creamery milk, they both buy their cereal from the same wholesalers.

    The one & only main difference between the two in the amount of money that stays in the county is the profit. The profit that Myrtle Ave makes stays here, the profit that Ray’s makes goes to its stockholders.

    The profit for a grocery store is around 2% if it is successful.

  168. High Finance
    October 13, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Mouse, sure those kids that want to leave will probably benefit from leaving, at least for a time.

    But those kids who want to stay are often forced to leave to get good jobs. I still remember all the families that were forced to relocate after the first mill closed in Samoa ten or so years ago.

    Unnamed, you neglect one fact about the “infill” of low wage jobs & the claim it drives down prices. Those “hundred minimum wage jobs” are not replacing higher paid jobs, they are replacing either welfare or unemployment or no money at all people.

    Those hundred jobs are actually introducing new money into circulation, there is more money available. More customers for those businesses who want to give their employees raises.

  169. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Hard to find a local grocery store? Are you just trolling? Is that all you buy? FYI safeway only carries half gallons and smaller Humboldt Creamery, at 30% higher price than any local store. Their Casa Lindra salsa costs a buck more. Safeway’s “local products” section is literally a bookshelf in the back of their stores, facing the back of their stores. I could go on.

    “Those hundred jobs are actually introducing new money into circulation…there is more money available.” Nope. People aren’t coming to Humboldt County to shop at Target, nor would they to shop at Home Depot. People come to Humboldt County to get away from all that garbage.

  170. Anonymous
    October 13, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Maybe Walmart isn’t a threat in Eureka:

  171. Anonymous
    October 13, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    HiF, as usual, is full of shit. Those 100 low paying jobs will not get poor folks off child care reimbursement, food stamps, rental assistance etc., etc. Most of these jobs are probably not even full time. Let’s face it, HiFi, these types of jobs are mostly for college and high school kids or “extra income” types and not primary wage earners. Get real, and, a life while you’re at it.

  172. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    HiFi is incapable of reading the report which states CLEARLY that almost ALL of the customers for new home improvement retail would come from existing businesses. No new money, no new jobs. All it will do is cost jobs and reduce the amount of money circulating in our economy. That he continues to spew the already proven lies shows he has no interest in honest discussion, just cheerleading big box at our expense.

  173. Un-Named
    October 13, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    12:10, that article opens “Earlier this year, the retailer tried to spark sluggish U.S. sales by lowering its prices – already bargains – even further.”

    Already bargains??? there’s the article’s slant. Also…thanks Walmart for admitting that you and your suppliers have been ripping everybody off with astronomical markups since the birth of your company.

  174. High Finance
    October 13, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    12.16pm and Plain Jane, you are the most dense poster here. Try thinking & answer this question.

    If you were to lose your job tomorrow and could not get unemployment, which would you rather have? No job whatsoever or a minimum wage job?

    And for the hundreth time, Plain Jane, would you rather have the big box in Fortuna or just outside Eureka city limits or inside Eureka? Because they are coming regardless of your opinion if they feel the local economy warrents them coming. I prefer Eureka because then Eureka gets their sales tax instead of Fortuna or the county.

  175. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Replacing one low wage job with another low wage job doesn’t produce any more jobs or more money, HiFi. Big boxes don’t create more jobs, but less. You seem to have some sort of mental illness or defect that keeps you from understanding simple facts which were clearly explained in the report for which a link has been provided numerous times. Stealing customers from neighboring towns doesn’t help the economy overall. If the people in those towns lose jobs, they won’t be shopping here. How dumb do you have to be to not get that?

  176. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Furthermore, if the Arkley stooges maintain a majority on Eureka’s city council, I will be doing the majority of my shopping in Arcata where the business owners still have the economic interests of locals at heart. I live in Humboldt County, not Eureka, and I care about our entire community, not just one town run by right wing idiots.

  177. Anonymous
    October 13, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Eureka has many businesses that deserve your support, Jane. They may not want to be affiliated with the politics at hand and you shouldn’t punish them.

  178. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    I said “most,” 12:52. Businesses owned by progressives and people opposed to the Arkley big box are deserving of support. I am hopeful that the people who live in the towns the Arkleymart cheerleaders are hoping to cannibalize boycott the businesses owned by these cheerleaders. Is the Eureka Chamber of Commerce a good source to use to determine which businesses support big boxes?

  179. Reinventing The Wheel
    October 13, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Thank you for spoon-feeding the only actual local economic research to the adherents of “No-Alternative” orthodoxy. National researchers have been corroborating these findings for years.

    We must wear these facts around our neck like garlic against vampires because an information-vacuum enables the repetition of pecuniary pseudo-truths.

    The development community is the dominant economic force, it’s not in local media’s advertising interest to question impacts VS contributions of every large development proposal. There’s been no headline, follow-up or debate about the Bay Area Economics report, it interferes in the development community’s historic expectations of the massive public subsidies required for more sprawl and big box development.

    Unfortunately, this failed development model has exploited our infrastructure beyond capacity, without addressing fundamental needs of higher paying jobs, health and safety, quality of life, and affordable housing.

  180. AnonymousX2
    October 13, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    Very few people would pick a clerking job at a big box if a job in manufacturing was available. They are not desirable jobs for the most part, but they pay the bills. Eureka High students go to the big city to find good work or go on to college to hopefully get even better jobs. Hi Fi do you really think they would stay here to work at Walmart or Home Depot? These are dead end jobs by in large. Why do you keep defending this kind of work as the great panacea that will save Eureka’s economy. You need to go back to school and take econ 101, or go to Eureka High and ask the students if they would work in one of these stores by CHOICE. You have not been in the trenches for years, I would guess. Where do you kids now live and work? Why are you such an apostle for the Arckley model?

  181. Goldie
    October 13, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    A low paying job is a slow financial death which is better than a fast one.
    Yes, HiFi, who long would your kingdom last with such a small income?

  182. Not A Native
    October 13, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    With HiFi being the sole defender here of the MC, the one fact all agree on is that a Home Depoot operation will result in a greater amount of every sales dollar immediately going out of the area. Personally, I think it will be a sizable amount of money, by HumCo standards.

    Maybe that fact alone isn’t sufficient to determine whether a home depot would be “good” or “bad” for the area. But it’s sure a strong reason to be cautious. Especially since the Balloon track is uniquely suitable for uses that would further diversify the economy like tourism and maritime industry.

    I feel the Fortuna PALCO mill site(for one)is a much, much, better choice for a large regional retail center, would better serve the public interest, and be more successful for Home Depot too.

  183. Oldphart
    October 13, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    If money stay or leaving the area is the crux of this debate, how did all of you feel about the Eureka Reporter vs. the Times Standard? Oh, I forgot, that would be Arkley. Oops.

    October 13, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    HiFi @ 11:42 am wrote,

    Unnamed, you neglect one fact about the “infill” of low wage jobs & the claim it drives down prices. Those “hundred minimum wage jobs” are not replacing higher paid jobs, they are replacing either welfare or unemployment or no money at all people.

    Those hundred jobs are actually introducing new money into circulation, there is more money available. More customers for those businesses who want to give their employees raises.

    Hmmmm, you would not be referring to the networking of public agencies and businesses for whom selectively are using divisions of social services as a feeder for employment? In other words, fill the pyramid schemers’ pocket off the backs of the cheapest, manufacturable labor that tax subsidies can provide – a sorta recycling of nibblits for the lowest on the totem pole citizen when considering economic standings that are ALREADY below that of the previous generation’s lowest on the totem pole labor pool/supply. Societal costs and financial over-valuations/frauds, etc… – yep, more profit marginization when more “back of the bus and low end humans” are used as bait for profit. To bad people don’t put money into the pockets of more HONEST BUSINESSES OF ALL MAKES AND MODELS.

    Yet, good thing though for federal minimum wage standards in that for this area up here in Humboldt, lower wages/wage rates/salaried positions, etc… are really not a legal option that adversley affects wages and the bottom line since that is what this area already experiences (it really does not matter which bottom feeder recycles or injects money into the local money supply).

    Anyhow, Is Death Valley getting any cooler?


  185. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    “Those “hundred minimum wage jobs” are not replacing higher paid jobs, they are replacing either welfare or unemployment or no money at all people.”

    No Jeff, they are replacing other minimum wage jobs at local businesses. Actually, they aren’t quite replacing the jobs they will cause to be lost due to the lower employee to sales ratio of big boxes.

  186. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    That is unless you subscribe to the idea that employers don’t lay off workers when their business drops by a significant amount.

  187. Bolithio
    October 13, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Hi-Fi is not the sole supporter….

    Maybe that fact alone isn’t sufficient to determine whether a home depot would be “good” or “bad” for the area. But it’s sure a strong reason to be cautious.

    Sure. Many of you keep going on about all the better uses for this site. Again, to bring back the OG topic of the tread, Measure N is very much meaningful. The BT is Public zoning currently no? Changing it allows an owner to remove you from the discussion of how the site is developed.

    This would seem more egregious to me if there were a serious plan developed by our local government for this site. One that perhaps included the progressive’s fantasies of manufacturing or other so-called light industrial uses. But as it stands – based on my limited education on this – there is no such alliterative, nor will there be in any reasonable amount of time.

    I have to agree that a big box is not to be taken lightly, and there are valid points as to why. It is also no surprise that a development of this scope would require some investment guarantee such as one you would assume comes with a large successful corporation.

    I love the idea of a marina center at the BT. Too bad its not a plan that everyone is in love with. If there were NO big box element would everyone get behind it?

  188. Jeff Bird
    October 13, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Plain Jane, you can use your argument anytime any new store opens. Don’t allow that sushi place to open, it will take away from the other sushi places and hurt their employment. Don’t allow that new drive through coffee shop to open up, etc. Who gets to choose what jobs we “protect” and what jobs are vulnerable? It used to be that the market determined this but you seem to think differently, correct?

  189. Eric Kirk
    October 13, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    Jeff – the problem is that what has happened with big boxes is that they have come to small communities, wiped out the opposition thus reducing choices, sometimes by illegally underselling them at a temporary loss. And to make matters worse for some communities, they have shut down themselves realizing it was just too small for their shareholders’ expectations or even to be in the black, leaving carnage in their wake. Small businesses who have gone down can’t always just start up again, especially if their credit ratings are shot. Again, this notion of the free markets in some Newtonian capacity to maintain balance is a fallacy, especially where big boxes in small communities are concerned.

    The scenario which scares me is that they bring in a Home Depot, which mauls the rest of the local market. Then HD decides it’s just not profitable enough to maintain in Eureka. Then the Arkleys, who have already been forced to retract their erroneous “no big box” promise, will have to go back on their “no WalMart” promise. Contrary to the claims being made by Prop N’s proponents, you cannot designate a zoning against a particular business, not even WalMart. Once the zoning is changed, anything is game.

    By the way Jeff, the market has always been but one factor in planning, and civil engineering does in fact involve planning around particular businesses and preventing saturation. It wasn’t invented by the left. Businesses pushed for the policies early on after they themselves fell victim during the industrial revolution and the “guilded age.”

  190. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    The market does determine that, Jeff, up to a point. There is nothing that is preventing Home Depot from locating here should they wish. They, just like Walmart, have the same right to open a business anywhere they want. However, the property in question isn’t zoned for retail and they are asking, like Walmart did, for a zone change. People who oppose big boxes in general, like myself, because they are harmful to a community’s economy, which they are, have a right to inform people of the harm they do. People like myself also have a right to advocate that the property not be rezoned for retail so it is available in the future for use more appropriate and beneficial to the community.

  191. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 6:44 pm

    The Walmart model in rural America has been to open a Walmart in every town, drive virtually all business into bankruptcy and then build a Super Center in the middle of a bunch of towns and close down the smaller stores. The workers fortunate to be transferred to the Super Center rather than laid off and all the towns people have to drive long distances to do any shopping and there are very few jobs in their towns.

  192. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    and aggressively pushing their suppliers into cheaper labor markets which is impossible to resist with their market share.

  193. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    Oh boy! Neely v Bass on KEET live! Now!

  194. October 13, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    Bass sounds like someone slipped her a Valium.

  195. Eric Kirk
    October 13, 2010 at 8:11 pm

    Memo to both Bonnie and Virginia – eminent domain is not always bad. Without it we would rarely be able to build roads, schools, parks, or cities.

    I hope they meant to say that eminent domain is inappropriate for private development.

  196. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    …not sure about Virginia’s hair. Funny, she is moving her lips but isn’t saying much…seems to want the county to be like Eureka…Bonnie sez Eureka has blown it with retail saturation…out of date model not used in other places…Virginia likes to make “comments” when Bonnie answers questions…defends retail…wants the private community at large to lead in helping homeless..Bonnie says county’s role is bigger than that…and yet another comment from Bass…whiny…let’s not duplicate homeless services (what? we have too many?)…Bonnie wonkish on planning and Forster Gill development…Bass decries lack of “mitigation” (what?) and says they weren’t in the loop…Bonnie says there were plenty of opportunities for participation…VB comments back about project manager donations…Bonnie comes back punching on annexation and the city’s budget crisis…Eureka needs to take care of and solve the budget problems they have…Virginia thinks it’s “funny” Bonnie concentrates on the city’s problems…city can control development if they can annex outside areas…Bonnie says if anyone is interested “let me know”…and on to changes in party registration, both R to D in recent times: Virginia – “it just felt like the right time” and besides, we haven’t raised taxes in Eureka all that much…Bonnie notes she was originally a Democrat…went R for some time because the D’s treated Sara Parsons poorly…mostly been with Dems, endorsed by Dems, proud to be a Dem…on the airport, Bonnie notes it’s been the foggiest summer in years and the navigation system replacement “not handled well”…Bass notes “hindsight is 20-20 vision” but in the end the county pulled it together…puts on her glasses to read the county budget…facing a $5,000,000 deficit…we need to make homes “more affordable” for “all levels of income”…Bonnie rejoins the county supports inclusionary zoning…developments have to include all…Bass says enforcement is not funded and home maintenance is de-incentivized…Bonnie is wearing a warm gray jacket over a turquoise shell…Virginia navy pinstripes on a purple tee-shirt…Prop 19…Bass thinks it could be written better…puts onus on local government finds it problematic…but…we need to have the discussion…there will be implications…Yes? No? Who knows? Bonnie…it’s time to de-criminalize marijuana and I’m for Prop 19…remembers the sixties…times have changed…bell rings, Bass jumps in…I have been criticized for money from developers and think it’s strange Bonnie has taken money from dope growers…Bass answers Marina Center conflict of interest question by saying most people want to see some sort of development…Neely point out the cleanup has a settlement…developer knew there are title issues and legal actions pending…knew it was restricted wetlands…hopes developer will follow the law…Bass says government is a scary thing and the supervisor should be an intermediary…Bonnie not willing to meet with developers and she questions her actions…oh you get the idea…

  197. October 13, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    Virginia again praises Ronald Reagan and can’t think of another political role model.

  198. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Bass says the board should visit project sites more often…Neely says it’s too bad the coastal commission was denied access to the Marina Center site two weeks ago…Bass says Eureka is ahead of the curve on Prop 19 enforcement…Neely supports using headwaters money for an economic analysis is 19 passes…oh boy, who are your role models! Bass likes her Dad and Ronald Reagan…Neely claims Sara Parsons and Hillary Clinton…Closing statements: Like you, Bass says, someone who works for you, not these guys or those guys, I ask you is Humboldt county better now than it was…it can be better…I have that commitment…Bonnie says voters can look at the public records and the jobs each have done…city has highest taxes in the county and want more…has endorsements of Mike T, Wes, Patty, Dems, etc and that’s all folks!

  199. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Neely 8
    Bass 5

  200. Plain Jane
    October 13, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Bass still talks like a Republican.

  201. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    She sounds like the Humboldt Mirror.

  202. October 13, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Bass talks like she’s checking off a list of talking points. She often says voters deserve a supervisor with “good ideas” yet after numerous debates has clearly shown she doesn’t have any.

  203. Goldie
    October 13, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    Was Bass slurring words more than usual, laughing at odd times, a bit too much to drink?

  204. the reasonable anonymous
    October 13, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Way back upthread, HiFi compared Safeway to Myrtle Ave market and found no difference in the products on their shelves. I don’t shop at Myrtle Ave Market so I don’t have an opinion on that, but I can say that without question, Murphy’s Markets have WAY, WAY more local products than Safeway, plus Murphy’s is locally owned.

    Murphy’s prices are usually better than Safeway or Ray’s, and they also carry a lot of natural and organic foods (some local, some not) at prices that are often quite a bit lower than the Co-op or Eureka Natural Foods. Somehow they manage to do all that while also treating their employees well, having plenty of checkout people so you don’t waste time waiting in line, and they even help seniors (or anyone else who wants the help) by bringing their groceries out to the customer’s car.

    I do go to Winco for some items when the price difference is huge, and the Co-op for items I can only get there, but Murphy’s is my favorite for everyday grocery shopping, and the fact that it’s locally owned and carries quite a few local products are more reasons to feel good about spending my grocery dollars there.

  205. Eric Kirk
    October 13, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    Virginia again praises Ronald Reagan and can’t think of another political role model.

    That was definitely a mistake. Bonnie could have nailed it home, but let her off.

    There again, Virginia let Bonnie off the hook on the Code Enforcement Unit.

    Virginia did refer to her father however.

    Bonnie hit Virginia time and again on Prop O and Eureka’s budgetary situation. Will Eureka voters hold that against a mayor with no vote? I have no idea.

  206. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    What is the frequency?

  207. Eric Kirk
    October 13, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    I do go to Winco for some items when the price difference is huge, and the Co-op for items I can only get there, but Murphy’s is my favorite for everyday grocery shopping,

    Murphy’s was the only place in the county we could find who sells Matsoh outside of Passover season. And they sell Blackjack gum!

  208. Eric Kirk
    October 13, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    KHSU Turtle, but it’s over.

  209. October 13, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    That was definitely a mistake. Bonnie could have nailed it home, but let her off.

    Bonnie gave a great answer to the question rather than waste her 60 seconds pointing out the obvious.

  210. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    “What is the frequency, Kenneth?” is the phrase Dan Rather thought he heard while being beat up. It is used to de-note reliance on topical change in conversation, like when Virginia Bass puts The De-Regulator atop her list of political idols.

  211. AnonymousX2
    October 13, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Richard Marks resigned tonight (again) from the Democratic Central Committee. This time he was called out for his support for Brady, Newman, and Bass on recent mailers. Those mailers implied the the DCC was endorsing these candidates and used the democratic logo. If fact the DCC voted to endorse Glass, Kuhnel, and Neely. There were a lot of strong rebukes and Richard had his say then left the building. Very interesting.

  212. humboldturtle
    October 13, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    Richard MarksVirginia BassRonald Reagan.


  213. mresquan
    October 13, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Eric wrote,”Will Eureka voters hold that against a mayor with no vote? I have no idea.”

    She was a council member for 6 years prior,so it is accurate and fair to assert that the budget woes partly fall onto her shoulders.

  214. A-Nony-Mouse
    October 13, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    My particular favorite is Brady trying to wrap herself in the Balloon Tack cleanup. She had NOTHING to do whatsoever with the cleanup. She did do 3 minutes of cheerleading for the MC EIR but made little sense at that, prefering to attack other council members with her time.
    Literally her only involvement in city governemnt was serving on the water rate committee where she voted to DOUBLE the base rate for water, severely penalizing seniors, people on fixed income, and low income users. That’s it. Compare her to Larry who has worked his tail off trying to open up the city budget process to citizen scrutiny, who was the creator, along with the Chief, of the extremely successful POP program, who has worked closely with neighborhoods all over town trying to help solve their problems. It’s a no-brainer.

    Brady has now resorted to mailers with outright lies about Larry. He never was involved in any lawsuits against Security National or the Marina Center. He was not a party to the BayKeeper suit, although I suspect he’s happy the judge ordered SN to do a real thorough cleanup. And the Democratic Party DOES NOT endorse her as implied by the mailers. The big money camp must be getting pretty desperate to resort to such outright falsehoods. Maybe she was coached by Richard Marks?

  215. Carol
    October 14, 2010 at 10:06 am

    She may have been coached by The Humboldt Mirror. Funny, but alot of what came out of Bass’ last night sounded like The Humboldt Mirror. And blogs are a ‘pox on society’? Are all blogs a ‘pox on society’?

  216. High Finance
    October 14, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    “blogs” aren’t the problem, some bloggers are.

    And I don’t mean the ones that disagree with me. It is the ones who spread viscious & unfounded rumors. I mean the ones who can’t disagree with a candidate or office holder like an adult but has to resort to smears & personal attacks. The bloggers who make fun at someone’s appearance are truely “a pox”.

    Plain Jane & Carol are relentless liberals & Democrats, but they behave civilily for the most part. Bloggers like Goldie at 8.42pm last night are what brings the level down.

  217. Heidi
    October 14, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    OK, This is all sort of new to me but it is becoming crystal clear, I never understood why some one would take a 30K check to city council to get a measure on the ballot that not only had a clear process but would still have that same process after the election regardless of the result. Now I see it, the money, signs, promotion and believe me in the next couple of weeks the smear, it’ll happen, has been used to fuel an election, a slate, they chose one trick pony candidates to mouth their words so they would ultimately get their way. I am not a fool but even I was distracted by the TRUE meaning behind measure N. This is another means of manipulating the community through money and power to support the continued control of a few elite businessmen. EUREKANS DO NOT BE FOOLED. Elect Glass and Kuhnel or you will have lost your voice at council!

  218. Anonymous
    October 14, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    I think the motive, in addition to influencing the election, is to see Measure N “win” by a landslide – to create a referendum that will not only validate Arkley and the popularity of the Marina Center but can be used as ammunition if they do proceed with development. That is what the goal is – not just winning but winning big.

    October 15, 2010 at 6:34 am

    HiFi @ 12:55,

    your statement about PJ not being like Goldie @ 8:42 pm is weird in that at least Goldie does not curse up and down the thread. You have a weird sense of civilnesses.

    Anyhow, your read is ever more speculative that HiFi is just an acting counter-moniker to PJ – blog host inventing characters to have uni-lateral discussions for the appearance of bi-lateral communication???


  220. Reinventing The Wheel
    October 15, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    It’s always to amusing to read pleas for “adult behavior, without smears or personal attacks upon their opponents”, by the same lamebrain who lavishes labels of “communist” or “radical leftist” upon those he disagrees with.

  221. High Finance
    October 15, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Sorry Wheel, I didn’t realize that the words communist or leftist was such an insult to you.

    Jeffrey, I hope you are trying to be funny. Otherwise your conjecture would just be a pathetic copying of what smarter people said in another topic.

    Heidi & Annon 11.12pm. The “motive” behind Measure N is obvious & you are partly right. The motives are to generate support for the MC. Opponents had been saying it wasn’t & that they represent the people. Measure N’s popularity is exposing the left as being out of Eureka’s mainstream.

    But yes, it was also partly due to the upcoming election. It will bring more moderate & conservative voters to the polls. It differentiates the candidates as to who is really pro business and who just mouths platitudes.

    It is interesting to note the furious back tracking of Larry Glass & the squirming of Ron Kuhnel. Larry has now said he supports Measure N & supports the Marina Center project? Trying to get Ron to state his position is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. He is trying to hide from the voters.

    October 15, 2010 at 2:19 pm


    funny is as funny does. As you have made known in the past with your version of civilness, I would be too dumb to understand your re-conjecture.

    Then again, you could pen your real name, but something tells me the results of which would be much more negative or embarrassing than to continue on as a nameless and faceless moniker being the signatory signing off as HiFi. I dunno though, just a suggestion, but you could end it near here and soon if you wanted too, right?


  223. High Finance
    October 15, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Jeffrey, are you saying that Plain Jane, Mouse, Monitor, Heraldo, Reinventing, Heidi, Turtle, Reasonable Annon, Oldphart, Tenthstreatdreamer, Not a Native, Decline to State, Dreamer are embarrassed about their positions?

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