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Remorseful Republican wear

MoveOn.org compiled a list of top 10 Shocking Attacks from the GOP’s War on Women.  This t-shirt takes a broader view.

[Image source.]

  1. February 20, 2011 at 12:28 am

    OMFG LOLZ!

  2. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 1:06 am

    I second what he said.

  3. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 1:22 am

    Only the most brain dead partisan Democrat hack thinks this t-shirt tells the truth or is funny.

  4. FuckHi Fi
    February 20, 2011 at 3:42 am

    Perfect portarayal on the state of the G.O.P.’s vision of AmeriKKKa.

  5. Walt
    February 20, 2011 at 5:59 am

    How about one that says “I voted Democratic and torture is still legal, private insurance is mandatory, the President hangs with CEOs, my kids are still dying for oil, I’ve lost my house(and any money that’s left went to the bank that made the loan, and the insurance company that canceled my policy)and they’re trying harder to catch and kill Julian Assanage than they are Osama Bin Laden.”

  6. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 6:51 am

    How would your list be any different if a Republican was in the White House, Walt?

  7. Walt
    February 20, 2011 at 7:13 am

    An excellent question. I’m not sure it would be. The point, though, is that most who voted Democratic didn’t get the change they voted for. Would Sarah have invaded Egypt to prop up Mubarak? Would she have sent the National Guard into Madison? Would she have made gun ownership mandatory? Probably not.

  8. February 20, 2011 at 7:22 am

    Then vote the Green Party!

  9. Andrew Bird
    February 20, 2011 at 7:23 am

    Localize it. I voted Republican and got a strip mall on my waterfront.

  10. Decline to State
    February 20, 2011 at 7:43 am

    and…

    “With any luck we’ll drive Islam from the U.S., put Jesus back in the classroom and carry concealed weapons on campus.”

  11. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 7:44 am

    It Republican has to be brain dead, or watching Fox News, not to realize every point on that shirt is true about his own party.

  12. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 7:44 am

    In the first place, Walt, the VP doesn’t have the ability to do any of those things. In the second place, the GOP is showing exactly what they would (and will do) if they gain control of the White House and Senate. I have been very disappointed with Obama, but still don’t believe it didn’t matter who was elected. The president isn’t a dictator who can do anything he likes. He has to work with the legislature the people give him and, unfortunately, a number of Democrats side with the Republicans on too many issues such as tax cuts, defense spending, job creation and health insurance reform. FYI, Julian Assange has been caught and is out on bail in the UK, Palin, Rush, Beck et al have been very vocal in support of Mubarak and if they had any real power who knows what they would do to prop up a corrupt dictator.

  13. Sniveller
    February 20, 2011 at 8:07 am

    Yawn

  14. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 8:13 am

    So many political discussions to have for each line on that shirt.

    Rapists – is that a liberal or conservative perpetuation? or, more simply, societal voters, especially parents who don’t raise their children appropriately?

    Student Loans – Ah, those responsible young types that get bailed out like the bankers when they default on their student loans!

    Whose Job – Hmmm, people act as if they have a right to work under someone else……..Hey, become an entrepenuer and small business owner and quit working for fascist corporate conglomerates…..and quit spending money without a thought……jobless economic recovery….told ya.

    HealthCare – as if humans always had it, scoff. Now, back into the ground with such frauds over the few. Those in HealthCare want what they can’t have!

    Unemployment – Well, as students go with their bailed-out arses and many worthless sheets of paper with degree ink, no guarantees – zilch. For those union workers – time has finally arrived to set these weasles back onto solid ground again after decades of b-s segregations upon the labor force that which was a government/fascist concoction to raise tax collections for gubbamint and profit margins for those fascists businesses that are willing to become involved in the financial labor scam job that segregates and pits American citizens against each other (the set-up has been evolving as labor laws have evoled).

    Republican – Nah, it is both Repubs and Demos; and, in California, the argument of Demos above and beyond can be backed up by history, even though, it don’t really matter any longer because the point of no return has been passed. Financially, this country and State are in a deep fried chicken salmonella dressing with a cherry plopped on top – disgusting majority voters with false faiths and trusts being led blindly by fools. So many parents have failed their own kin and society overall, miserably. Look around, listen, taste it, feel it, KNOW IT! To many dumbies, period.

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  15. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 8:50 am

    The health care thing gets me. Republicans cry over a fetuses, but give a damn that millions of people die every year over access to health care.

  16. Owltotem
    February 20, 2011 at 8:59 am

    DONT BLAME ME I VOTED FOR LARRY GLASS!!!!

  17. Owltotem
    February 20, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Walt, Maaaaan thats my pres and
    Movie dad, yeah then you get Mike Newman

    I get both of your points at surface value but the more I learn about politics and the way things really run I recognize that compromise is both required and futile.

    The system as it stands has to break. There needs to be a broad based grass roots solution oriented task based bi partisan movement. Little things people are passionate about. It has to cross party lines and actually serve the people.

    The TPparty was a marketing ploy that said that is what they were, BUT they are actually a front for conservative rtepublicans which is why, they are actually more of the same, and driving the divide deeper. The t shirt above plays into the same biased one sided, partisan divide.

    Locally, the Westside Community Improvement Group is the closest I have seen to a such a solution. There were some pretty well known conservative folk supporting the Jefferson Purchase and Barb Leonard even posted a pro WCIA/Jefferson column on the Mirror. I think this is the the key. This group should be the local model for success AND they should begin some smaller projects so the people can see just how well this works.

    Flash back to the late sixtys folks, the peace movement did not begin as a bunch of leftos, it was wholesome american youth, from all walks of life. They were on to something. But the Military Industrial Complex is so large, so powerful and so secure that it ultimately prevailed. You see THAT sort of TASK, making money speaks to MANY, they dont have to even be America, it is a language they all understand. We need to find our currency, our common voice, our goal.

    I feel the drum beat!!!!!

  18. Owltotem
    February 20, 2011 at 9:22 am

    And I don’t like the inflammatory shit using rape as a blade in a political argument is unconscionable! There are rape victims and children of rape victims reading this blog and reading your shirt and it was not an act of politics. Rude and Absurd!

  19. Owl pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 9:52 am

    Owl, have YOU ever been raped? Did YOU ended up pregnant as a result? Were you then denied an abortion because abortions offend hypocritical “prolife” politicians who support assault weapons and war instead of diplomacy?

    If your answer is no, sit down and shut up.

  20. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Comment deleted.

  21. Goldie
    February 20, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Hey Pellets, who are you to say shut up and sit down? You are mistaken in your assumed authority to issue such a statement. Women are raped. Pregnancies do occur and who stands by these women? Who stands up and says this is wrong? Who comes forward and says I will help you.
    Currently Planned Parenthood is slated for defunding. Respect for women is one of the signs of a healthy culture. As a culture are lacking.

  22. February 20, 2011 at 10:03 am

    Henchman you are so full of it. “Bailed out?” are you as nuts as everyone says you are? The banks come after school loan defaults like no other. You default on your school loans and your wages, income tax return and your house will be attached so fast it’ll make your head spin.
    Are writing inflammatory nonsense just to fish for responses?

  23. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 10:24 am

    Moviedad,

    the only thing nuts is the trust and faith that the higher education system does any good when no guarantee (career) for that debt that so many students create and default on. So, what is worse – 1) the poor student who can’t afford school; or, 2) the poor student who can’t afford school, but that takes a loan that will be defaulted upon, thereby forcing the taxpayers to subsidize one poor person over another. Not all defaulters have such the list of “lien type” holdings Moviedad. Now, what are you implying again by saying I am full of it? Look around, what do you see, experience, feel, etc… I’ll say that one thing is for sure – those poor students provide a nice, debt funded lifestyle for those many educators at the higher levels; so, I can undrstand why student loan default types get bailed out compared to others who work mulitple piss poor jobs to fund their own way through college. I know it must be hard to face the facts of reality, but come on, how many people are living their life in denial only to come back name calling to deflect attention away from the truths and facts of reality.

    Goldie – Did you hear about the Planned Parenthood (I believe it was reported within the past 2 weeks) conspiracy of some of the staff doing bad things to the patients? How about how judges who sentence children for “under-the-table” monetary kickbacks by sending the kids off to some “systematic” detainment center for any given amout of time for simple temper tantrums or less?

    Rapists – are pure evil and the parents off rapists ought to be ashamed at their poor efforts to teach their own kin right from wrong. In those cases where the parents are not really to blame – very few imo – then how do you better society from restraining from such heneous behavoir.

    JL

  24. Owl pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 10:26 am

    Goldie, Were the sentences I wrote too hard for you to understand?

    You say: “Pregnancies do occur and who stands by these women?”

    Well, not the politicians who deny the woman the right to decide she does not want to be pregnant. Get it?

    And then you say: “Currently Planned Parenthood is slated for defunding.”

    Who is defunding it, Goldie? Are they the people who “stand by” the victims of rape?

    Try thinking through your statements before putting your confusion out there.

    Who am I to say sit down and shut up? THIS is your biggest concern? Why not ask, who are YOU (or anyone else) to dictate to me what I will do with my body and my unwanted pregnancy.

  25. Reality Check
    February 20, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Absolutely genius! Thank you Heraldo!

  26. February 20, 2011 at 10:52 am

    What a shit-heel remark from Anonymous 9:55.

  27. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 11:02 am

    Joel & I agree again ! 9.55am needs to get some serious mental help.

    The whole tone of the shirt is nasty and his facts are messed up.

    The creep lost his job before the Republicans took control of the House. The Dems are still in control of the Senate & White House.

    He lost his student loan because of the Reps ? How stupid is that charge ? Ditto for his unemployment.

    The “millionaire Banker & Doctor” did not get any tax cuts. The Dems & Obama wanted tax INCREASES and the Republicans stopped them.

    And WTF does he bring up rape & abortion ? Nothing in the law has changed there and the vast majority of the Republicans want abortion preserved in the case of rape..

    Anyone who believes the shirt is uninformed.

  28. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 11:05 am

    How about a T-shirt that says;

    I voted for Obama and all I got was;

    The country will soon be $26 TRILLION dollars in debt. The national debt now equals our GDP. The country’s unemployment rate has almost doubled. We now see pictures of our president bowing to dictators around the world.

  29. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 11:12 am

    HiFi,

    Do you always blame the first responders for the mugging victim’s wounds?

    Silly question. ‘Course you do.

  30. Smell It Pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 11:17 am

    Owl pellets,

  31. Smell It Pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Owl pellets,
    I don’t have to be raped or have an abortion to have an opinion on rape or abortion. No more than I have to be a soldier to have an opinion on war. Or be murdered to have an opinion on murder.

  32. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 11:26 am

    The country will soon be $26 TRILLION dollars in debt.

    Finally, HiFi acknowledges the impact of the Bush years.

  33. Owl pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 11:28 am

    Smell it yourself, then take it up with the Owl

    HE says: “using rape as a blade in a political argument is unconscionable!”

    So eat your own pellets and you two MEN keep blathering about something you will never have to experience.

  34. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 11:33 am

    Pellets, men can be raped, too. Don’t be an asshole.

  35. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 11:41 am

    Mitch and 11.26am know that Obama has added more to the national debt in just his first two years than Bush did in all eight of his.

    In four years Obama’s budgets will have added more to the national debt than the TOTAL of the 230 years before him.

  36. Owltotem
    February 20, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Op 952, yes

  37. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 11:47 am

    But they can’t get pregnant from the rape so they aren’t impacted by not being allowed to have an abortion after they were impregnated by their rapist, 11:33.

    It’s possible everyone hasn’t been following the debate regarding changing the rules which have in the past allowed rape victims to receive government funded abortions, as well as all women being denied the right to purchase insurance which will pay for abortions.

  38. p
    February 20, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Auntie,

    You are fucking sick. Perhaps you can blame your violent hate speech on foxnews and sarah palin.

  39. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 11:50 am

    And for the record, the Republicans are trying to defund Planned Parenthood COMPLETELY because they perform abortions even though they are not paid for with tax money.

  40. Smell It Pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Owl pellets says
    “So eat your own pellets and you two MEN keep blathering about something you will never have to experience.”

    Keep making your ass umptions.

  41. p
    February 20, 2011 at 11:57 am

    Where is your outrage, Jane? Auntie is out inciting violence.

    Heraldo, you really should delete Auntie’s post at 1141. Its way past inappropriate.

  42. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 11:59 am

    Since the Bush tax cuts had an expiration date, extending that date was in fact a cut. Allowing them to end on schedule is not an increase. If the Republicans were really so opposed to deficits they wouldn’t be demanding tax cuts for the rich with our already low historic rates at the same time they are raking in a record share of income and consolidating wealth at the top. Cutting programs which benefit the working poor and unemployed who are struggling desperately to give tax cuts to those doing better than ever is unconscionable, but some people are apparently without a conscience.

  43. Sell It Pellets
    February 20, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    Ahh, the Birthers vs. the Anti-Birthers battle yet still.

  44. Really?
    February 20, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Auntie Arkley’s comment at 11:41 is allowed to stand? I’ve had comments “moderated” that never can close to calling for murder.

    Heraldo, wake up, dude!

  45. Democrat Tshirt Regret
    February 20, 2011 at 12:21 pm
  46. tra
    February 20, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Republicans should be out-organized and out-voted.

    AA’s 11:41 comment is both asinine and despicable. It should be removed and I fully expect that it will be.

    (Patience, 12:07, the way it works here is that comments are almost always published instantly, without moderation, and as a result there may be a little bit of lag-time before Heraldo notices that it is “out of bounds” and decides to delete it. Unfortunatley, there’s no “flag” feature on this blog, but if you want to draw this comment to Heraldo’s attention sooner, you could e-mail him, just hit the “contact” link at the top of this page.)

  47. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    Have you seen this bumper sticker:

    “How many Iraqi children does your car get per gallon”?

  48. Decline to State
    February 20, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    Smell It Pellets says:
    February 20, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Owl pellets,
    I don’t have to be raped or have an abortion to have an opinion on rape or abortion. No more than I have to be a soldier to have an opinion on war. Or be murdered to have an opinion on murder.

    No, but your opinions would have much more of an impact if you had.

  49. Big Al
    February 20, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    maybe Aunti is speaking about killing Republicans metaphorically, meaning defeat them at the polls…??
    I do understand her frustration

  50. Goldie
    February 20, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Democrats or Republicans are not sport teams that you can just route for blindly. It is not that simple. We have the T-shirts to prove it.
    As consideration and decisions that favor the existence of profit for the top few percent are granted money and quality of life are removed from the rest.
    If it is a sport it reminds me of tag team wrestling and the two parties are on the same side.

  51. tra
    February 20, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Frustration does not justify advocating murder.

    If you just mean “defeat” Republicans, just say that.

  52. WTF?
    February 20, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    If I remember correctly, the quote was >>
    “My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world.
    I hope you’ll join with me, as we try to change it.” Barack Obama-2008
    “Change?” Wow did we ever get change……..

  53. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 2:48 pm

    I have Republicans and Democrats in my family and on staff here and am glad to be Independent. I don’t believe most people in either of those parties have agendas that are as negative as the other party portrays, but many times their methods and how to get to the same place don’t agree. There are too many angry people hating each other. I get tired of hearing both sides bitch and exaggerate about the other.

    Looking at the shirt, all I can say from my perspective is that I am employed, and my kids are employed, I pay for my staff’s healthcare and one of my kids. My children didn’t apply for or qualify for student grants or scholarships and I was lucky enough to have paid all their tuitions, with no tax allowances or write-offs, by the way. My payments and taxes helped other people’s kids get their money for college or programs.

    I give a lot to charity and don’t have the ability to “write it off” legally. It is just out of the goodness of my own heart. I find it hard to turn away when people and organizations are needy.

    I employ people who work hard and try their best.I haven’t had to let anyone go yet but we have had to forego raises this past 2 years.

    Without people who seem conservative like me, I am not sure where a lot of folks would work. We try to maintain a good employee environment here. “Try a little kindness” is a good theme for employers.

    I think that shirt is another example of exaggeration and polarization of people who need to try to get along.

  54. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Every statement on the shirt reflects real actions by Republican leaders. That part is fact. Applying it to the party as a whole is a little more sketchy.

    Any Republican who seriously hasn’t heard these criticisms before needs to try harder to be educated about current events.

  55. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    And any Democrat who hasn’t heard the stereotypical rants about themselves also needs to be more aware. I find these to be as true as the Republican faults.

  56. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    Your Boss, congratulations. Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out.

  57. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Thank you. I am sure my name alone would irritate certain people but I mean what I said in all honesty, even though your comment sounds sarcastic. Ugliness has no place in business or commenting, to me, and I see a lot of it here. Both sides of this issue need to be more open to the other and not jump to conclusions.

  58. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Dear Boss,

    As you say, you were lucky to be able to pay your kids tuitions. I’ll go beyond that, I’ll bet your ability was, in part, because of all the hard work you’ve put into your business and all the material goods you’ve probably done without while you were starting things up. Congratulations!

    Now, if you don’t mind, let me ask you a few questions, OK?

    Do you think you and your employees would be doing as well if you’d been born in Uganda?

    I’m pretty sure that the armed forces played a role in providing enough stability for you to grow your business, and there are a lot of veterans who need help, sometimes because of the trauma they experienced in fighting. And your raw materials costs are almost certainly lower than they would be, because the United States military has intervened for decades to prevent workers in other countries from getting fair payment for their labor.

    I think the interstate highway system probably helps you get goods you sell, or ship goods you manufacture, or get supplies that are involved in the services you provide.

    I think our public education and university systems may have contributed to the success of your children, or to your ability to obtain employees who are able to meet your needs.

    It’s possible that the internet has been of some use in your prosperity — that was developed with government dollars through the Defense Advanced Research and Projects Agency.

    Probably none of your kids died of diarrhea or other diseases caused by poor sanitation, so I wonder if you go to sleep each night giving thanks to the sewer workers and to the regulators who help ensure that sewer systems work.

    And you’re fortunate indeed that the National Institutes of Health has been able to direct taxpayer money to project after project attempting to find the causes of disease, and searching out ways to deal with the results of disease. (The drug companies take the credit and the profits, but much of the research is paid for by taxes.)

    Then there’s the EPA, which has helped ensure that you have clean air to breath and water to drink.

    I could go on. I think most of us are aware that our government is not as efficient as it could be, and we all wish it didn’t cost as much to keep the country functioning as it does.

    But you can rejoice in the fact that you’re winning the class war: in 1980, your top income tax bracket would have been 70%, but now it’s down to below half that.

    Once upon a time, most Americans thought it was pretty reasonable to expect the wealthy, those folks who made more than 10 or 20 or 50 times what most people make, to pay a pretty high share of their income in taxes. I think the idea was that the wealthy owed a lot of their good fortune to our society and the work EVERYONE IN IT puts in, so our society was entitled to divert some of their money to help those at the bottom.

    And then it was probably also thought that taking an extra buck away from someone who could own a yacht would cause them less pain than taking a buck away from someone who would have used it to feed her kids.

    But over the last thirty years, thoughts like that have been successfully discredited, so now you don’t need to worry that you pay more of a share of your income in taxes than your workers. In fact, when you combine the payroll taxes with income taxes, you may even be fortunate enough to chip in an even lower percentage of your income as taxes than some of your lowest paid staff.

    It’s a great country, Boss! Like I said, congratulations.

    Don’t worry that everything’s going to fall apart. You’ll be dead by the time things get really bad, and we already know you couldn’t give a shit about your kids’ lives. There’s stuff to be bought, and vacations to take!

  59. a non
    February 20, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    Boss,

    So you are doing very well, feel good about yourself and are generous with your employees and your children. Your children don’t have to worry about how to cover college costs because you are able to provide for them. Probably will give them a nice inheritance so they may always be secure. All very nice.

    Unfortunately, through no fault of their own, many hard working people in this country find themselves in a different situation. Their situation is dire. People can not afford medical care, housing, food.

    The cult followers who dominate the Republican Party are on the brink of shutting down the government instead of raising taxes. They would rather see us slip into another Great Depression than tax the rich who paid for their seats in Congress. Fox network pushes Republican propaganda, so who need Public Broadcasting? Republicans want to defund PBS too.

    Boss, you expressed three sentiments that Republicans should (but do not) practice:

    1) I find it hard to turn away when people and organizations are needy.

    Republicans fought to deny extending uunemployment, fought to deny medical coverage for first responders at 9/11, and are fighting to deny health care, while they and their family gladly take the premium health care that we pay for. We have no choice – their health care comes first.

    2) but we have had to forego raises this past 2 years.

    But Republicans will not forego their obstinate refusal to raise taxes on the rich.

    Try a little kindness” is a good theme

    3) The Republican agenda is very kind to the rich.

    Granted, too many Democrats are spineless and go along with the Rep agenda, but they did not create that agenda.

  60. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    Dear Boss,

    (Part one)

    Dear Boss,

    As you say, you were lucky to be able to pay your kids tuitions. I’ll go beyond that, I’ll bet your ability was, in part, because of all the hard work you’ve put into your business and all the material goods you’ve probably done without while you were starting things up. Congratulations!

    Now, if you don’t mind, let me ask you a few questions, OK?

    Do you think you and your employees would be doing as well if you’d been born in Uganda?

    I’m pretty sure that the armed forces played a role in providing enough stability for you to grow your business, and there are a lot of veterans who need help, sometimes because of the trauma they experienced in fighting. And your raw materials costs are almost certainly lower than they would be, because the United States military has intervened for decades to prevent workers in other countries from getting fair payment for their labor.

    I think the interstate highway system probably helps you get goods you sell, or ship goods you manufacture, or get supplies that are involved in the services you provide.

    I think our public education and university systems may have contributed to the success of your children, or to your ability to obtain employees who are able to meet your needs.

  61. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    (part two)

    It’s possible that the internet has been of some use in your prosperity — that was developed with government dollars through the Defense Advanced Research and Projects Agency.

    Probably none of your kids died of diarrhea or other diseases caused by poor sanitation, so I wonder if you go to sleep each night giving thanks to the sewer workers and to the regulators who help ensure that sewer systems work.

    And you’re fortunate indeed that the National Institutes of Health has been able to direct taxpayer money to project after project attempting to find the causes of disease, and searching out ways to deal with the results of disease. (The drug companies take the credit and the profits, but much of the research is paid for by taxes.)

    Then there’s the EPA, which has helped ensure that you have clean air to breath and water to drink.

    I could go on. I think most of us are aware that our government is not as efficient as it could be, and we all wish it didn’t cost as much to keep the country functioning as it does.

  62. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    (part three)

    But you can rejoice in the fact that you’re winning the class war: in 1980, your top income tax bracket would have been 70%, but now it’s down to below half that.

    Once upon a time, most Americans thought it was pretty reasonable to expect the wealthy, those folks who made more than 10 or 20 or 50 times what most people make, to pay a pretty high share of their income in taxes. I think the idea was that the wealthy owed a lot of their good fortune to our society and the work EVERYONE IN IT puts in, so our society was entitled to divert some of their money to help those at the bottom.

    And then it was probably also thought that taking an extra buck away from someone who could own a yacht would cause them less pain than taking a buck away from someone who would have used it to feed her kids.

    But over the last thirty years, thoughts like that have been successfully discredited, so now you don’t need to worry that you pay more of a share of your income in taxes than your workers. In fact, when you combine the payroll taxes with income taxes, you may even be fortunate enough to chip in an even lower percentage of your income as taxes than some of your lowest paid staff.

    It’s a great country, Boss! Like I said, congratulations.

  63. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    (part four)

    Boss, I’ll bet you love your children. And you probably think of yourself as a soft-touch with other people’s children as well.

    But if you’re supporting the current crop of conservative politicians, you are selling your children down the river.

    As evidenced by the politicians you vote for, you aren’t willing to do your share to keep the country’s infrastructure in repair, or to keep our social fabric intact. You are sticking your head in the sand about climate change, and the planetary disaster that we have all created. And, like so many people in the past, you are looking for scapegoats to blame for the problems that you’ve been part of creating.

    The problem isn’t illegal immigrants, or blacks, or Jews, or even “kids these days.” The problem is that the country cannot support itself when the wealthy are diverting massive amounts of money away from public investment and into their own accounts. And when you and your Boss friends lobby successfully to lower the top tax rate from 70% to 35%, you’re not helping grow the economy — you’re starving it.

    When things collapse — and if we continue on the road we’re on, they will, and soon — please don’t act surprised when you hear that you are to blame. You are.

  64. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    4:07 A few points:

    My children will probably not inherit much. There is just not much left and I intend to retire around 70, which will eat the rest of it up.

    I didn’t say I was “doing very well”. I am constantly trying to keep at a level where I am doing well enough. I think by most standards I have done well but it doesn’t mean I don’t have to worry about money, my children, or my employees.

    I don’t believe the Republicans would rather go into another deep depression than raise taxes. I believe they have an economic theory that greatly differs from their Democrat contemporaries, believing that raising taxes slows economic growth.

    and Mitch:

    I was obviously not born in Uganda and this sort of question is actually not pertinent to me. You think it should be. I do not. It doesn’t mean I don’t care about the unfair labor practices in other countries as well as our own.

    I have paid so much in taxes over the years that I am sure I have done my share to support our military, our education system, and our highways. There are certain things I would rather not have supported, but I have paid taxes as the IRS states to do.

    I certainly pay more of a percentage of taxes than my lowest paid worker, who gets $21 an hour.

    I knew just calling myself “the Boss” would bring out some negativity in persons such as Mitch. It’s just to hard for some people to understand that there are flaws in both sides of this story.

  65. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Perfect Mitch. My point exactly. I never said I voted for certain politicians. You assumed. I said I was an Independent, and felt like the right and left are both incorrect as well as correct on many points.

    Yes, I love my children. You are right on that point.

  66. Your Boss
    February 20, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    I know you’re typing madly (and angrily) but I am leaving my computer.

  67. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    No, Boss, I’m not typing angrily.

    But the marginal tax rate on your $21 employee is 25% income tax, and the payroll taxes come to something like 15-18% when employer and employee share are both considered. (Given we’re in a free market and you are willing to pay a certain rate to an employee, it strikes me as specious to argue that the employee isn’t paying the “employer share.”) So that comes out to a marginal rate of something like 40 to 43%.

    You, if you have a high enough income, aren’t paying the employment taxes on your last dollar, and your income tax rate is capped at something like 39%.

    So, Boss, your employee is paying a bit more than you are, as a percentage of their next dollar.

    But really, Boss, I’m not typing angrily, just quickly. I paid for part of my tuition by night-time word-processing work at a bank headquarters, so I got to listen to the bankers’ reports on the businesses where they’d just lunched. It was extra education.

  68. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    …and I can’t help but notice that what I wrote was “if you are supporting the current crop of conservative politicians.”

    If.

  69. a non
    February 20, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    Boss,

    Mitch is right, the “right wing”…

    “aren’t willing to do your share to keep the country’s infrastructure in repair, or to keep our social fabric intact.”
    and “are selling your children down the river.”

    Family values, con style.

    Also agree with…
    “the idea was that the wealthy owed a lot of their good fortune to our society and the work EVERYONE IN IT puts in, so our society was entitled to divert some of their money to help those at the bottom.”

    Or, as The Boss says “the needy”…

    which, correct me if I am wrong, is a core tenet of Christianity. “Conservatives say they are Christian to the core. Just don’t expect them to act accordingly.

  70. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    Religion and christianity are not just a conservative dedication.

    JL

  71. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    Mitch, wokers comp rates go down bigtime too when the employer is paying, oh let’s say, over $23.99 per hour in some trades; whereas, in other trades, the threshhold will be lower or higher. The point is, good business people KNOW the break-off points or base levels if you will of the tax models used to tax businessess. The problem with the threshholds is that the gubbamint set those threshholds very high to super-inflate the tax collections based upon valuation scams. So, how can an employer save money while at the same time, justifying the experience level or skill-sets of that employee by paying a better wage? It is the fascist insurance companies that are so heavily tied to screwing up the economy as well…..and to think voters jump at the chance to vote into office bankers, insurance brokers/agents, wall street types, famous movie people, etc…. Talk about the lack of an educated voter base that has no real sense of freedom or liberty; nor any connection to fairness.

    Now, if you decide to retire or go outta business, then the State Franchise Tax Board will harass you because they have been informed that a business no longer wants to do business, so retalitory, aggravated and malicious actions are taken by the gunnamint and used as abuse against the citizen….all because of tax dollars now being known ONLY AS not recoverable. Then, the whole charade and shenanigan end run by gubbamint to steal and graft an honest person’s net worth and wealth after-the fact while making false accusations to make gubbamint look like their right and the citizen is wrong. America is losing because of this systematic syndrome over taxes and class level comparisons.

    JL

  72. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 5:43 pm

    Tax Rates are manipulative when the wealthy say they pay more in taxes, but that their rate was dropped at a certain income level; so essentially, the wealthy pay less in taxes PER DOLLAR when looked at as a ratio of taxes paid versus income made.

    No person will be able to win any debate with any person over taxes because the IRS and gubbamint have the citizens of this country looped over taxes – just look at the loopholes, offsets, credits, deductions, etc…. afterall, why is it not fair that everybody who must drive to work be able to write off the fuel for tax purposes. All employees and employers should be able to write off all costs associated with doing business regardless of whether that person is a business owner or an employee. An employee has work clothes that get hammered, vehicles that take abuse on piss poor roads going to work or being used in work, food to replenish the energy that was sapped by the business to create a service or product (the human body is a bio-mechanical tool, maybe not a Makita model, but still a hard worked tool), etc…

    Again, Fascist Pyramid schemers among gubbamint and the private sector who are funneling wealth to the few by and through an expanding world population where the lower numbers are gamed to pad the lifestyles of the higher numbers (elitists) in less quantity.

    JL

  73. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    Honest business people who are true blue have no problem exposing the business scams that would be otherwise easy to benefit from for themself too IF such honest business person was a grafter and thief. Good thing there are those who have owned and operated a business who are willing to expose the dark sides of business.

    JL

  74. Envy
    February 20, 2011 at 5:50 pm

    The successful are to blame for the unsuccessful, Mitch?

  75. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    Envy,

    How on earth did you get that from what I wrote? Seriously?

  76. Envy
    February 20, 2011 at 5:57 pm

    Work for yourself if you resent your employer.

  77. Envy
    February 20, 2011 at 5:58 pm

    “please don’t act surprised when you hear that you are to blame. You are.”

  78. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    Let me try to spell it out for you, Envy.

    We are all interconnected.

    Those of us who are wealthy did not become wealthy without the help of many people, known to us and unknown to us.

    And many people who are poor are poor not because of anything they’ve done or haven’t done, but because of circumstances beyond their control.

    Therefore, while I wouldn’t want to live in a society that capped people’s earnings, I think it’s legitimate that an increasing share of a person’s wealth be given back to the society which allowed that person to flourish, so the society can take care of all of its citizens to a minimal level of decency.

    That’s because I believe all people in a materially rich society have a right to edible food, safe shelter, public education, health care, and other things.

    It’s not because I feel the successful people are to blame for the unsuccessful. (Though, at the risk of confusing the issue, I DO feel that much of the wealth of Wall Street is due to theft.)

    Capitalism will work just fine even if people at the bottom are treated with decency and respect; plenty of people will work hard to obtain more than the bare minimum. And I personally believe a lot of people will work HARDER when they feel their contributions are going to a society which values all its members, and not just to help enrich the Boss and his cronies.

  79. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 6:08 pm

    Envy,

    First, I do work for myself.

    Second, when I say that those who vote for the current crop of conservative politicians are to blame for the disasters that are beginning to unfold, I’m not blaming the successful. (Geez, at the risk of blowing my own horn, I consider myself pretty successful.) I’m blaming the stupid and selfish.

  80. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    Envy,

    I dunno about resentment. Maybe it is me, but it appears there exist a lot of employees who resent their employer, but, alas, bills…………lack of education or drive or desire………peer pressures……..wealth levels…….geographic lifestyle opportunities…….a worthless college degree and no job market for that base degree, etc….

    I know resentment exists, but there sure is many businesses with resentful employees because those resentful employees can’t find a better opportunity. It is like my Grandpappy once told me – he’d work at McDonald’s if that was the only job. He may not have liked it, but responsibility wise, a job is better than no job in his mind.

    Now, back in the day, it may have been easier to live with less, but since costs are astronomically inflated in today’s society, there is less opportunity to live with less while still attempting to LIVE. It is dire when each generation must now learn to live with less because societal greeds forced the poker hand of the less fortunate in society. Sure, there will always be those who get lost in the fold, but it is the how, collectively and individually, that is a major concern. The sensible fix is de-population, but it takes time. The quick fix is global population disaster, but a painful one it will be. Longterm education goals regarding healthy population sustainability is more important than most political issues being currently bandied about. Human problems start at birth, sad but true.

    JL

  81. Envy
    February 20, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Often the stupid and selfish are poor due to their efforts or lack thereof.

  82. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    Envy,

    We agree that the stupid and selfish are often poor.

    I’d add that the stupid and selfish are often rich, especially if they were born richer.

    And, occasionally, you meet someone who is materially poor because they’ve devoted their life to helping others, or to making art, or because they had sufficiently poor judgment that they chose to be born with an expensive disease.

  83. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Mitch, you shouldn’t post so many times in such a short time as you make so many mistakes in each post it is difficult to correct all your errors.

    4.23pm. Maybe the top marginal rate was 80% in 1980 but there were many tax shelters & deductions available then that are not available now. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

    And besides, what kind of thief are you to believe that a top rate of 80% federal and combined with a top rate of almost 10% state is fair ? To take 90% of someones hard earned income ???

    Class envy makes you ugly. Class envy also reflects the greed of some people. They want the earned income from someone else to be given to them gratitus.

  84. Goldie
    February 20, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    The request for fair taxing and evenly sharing the responsibility of supporting the infrastructure which supports our collective society is reasonable.

  85. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    HiFi,

    I think I’ve said this in the past: it’s always an honor to be on the other side of an issue from you.

    While people are starving anywhere in the world, I have no moral qualms over taxing ninety million dollars of someone’s hundred million dollars in earnings, leaving them to try to survive on the ten million they have left for the year. No qualms at all.

    Jesus summed it up well with his comment about camels, needles, and rich men.

  86. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    Comrade Mitch, your post at 4.27pm could have been written by Karl Marx, Joesph Lenin or Leon Trotsky.

    The rich are “diverting massive amounts of money away from the infrastructure and into their own accounts”?

    I blame the schools for not educating people about economics. When that “massive” amounts of money is “diverted” into their own accounts, what do you think the banks do with it? They make it available for loans and those loans help create jobs.

    It is laugh out loud funny to hear you say the “rich” are “diverting” their own money into “their own accounts” ! Indeed it is the thieves like you who are diverting the money from the rich into governmental accounts !

    Your logic is also laughable when you blame the “rich” for neglecting our infrastructure. The government is responsible for that and nobody else. They are “diverting” tax dollars to pay for entitlement programs and interest on the national debt.

    Class envy makes you ugly.

  87. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    HiFi,

    You may have noticed that the banks haven’t been making loans.

    The country has only so much productivity. It can go to guns, butter, or diamonds. With our war budget, we give priority to the first. When we lower the progressivity of the tax code, it gives priority to the third. The second is left at the bottom.

    I understand, I think, why we disagree so completely. You think that when someone earns $10 million, any portion of it that goes to supporting the society is theft. I don’t, I think it’s a cost of living in civilization.

    Gotta go.

  88. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    More Comrade Mitch mistakes at 4.53pm.

    That $21 an hour employee’s marginal tax rate is not 25% that is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Indeed, if that employee is married with two children he probably pays ZERO TAX !!!!

    That employee only pays 7.65% payroll tax AND HIS BOSS PAYS A MATCHING 7.65%

    Instead of your ludicrous claim of the $21 an hour employee having a “marginal rate of 43%” his true rate is somewhere less than 7.65%.

    Your envy of people more successful than you has twisted your mind. You are incredibly uninformed and misinformed.

    Class envy makes you ugly.

  89. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    It is a myth liberals like to believe, that most poor people are poor because of things out of their control. I have known too many people who were born poor and obtained middle class or much higher.

    Most poor people are poor because they either have low expectations for themselves, are lazy or were shortsighted. I was born & raised very poor. Friends of mine took the easy way out & dropped out of high school or at least did not go to college. I lived like a pauper and worked my way through. It was a tough five years and I even envied my friends who were out of school & were making a lot more money than I dreamed of.

    But those friends are doing much worse than I am now. I am sure they think it is not fair just as you do. I am sure they think their situation is “out of their control” like you do.

    But they think it is terrible when they have to work an hour overtime. 50-60 hour weeks are common with me. Sure, they would be glad to have 90% of my pay taken away & given to them.

  90. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Comrade, “our country has only so much productivity” ?

    You understand nothing about how the economy works.

    And banks are most certainly giving out loans. They are much tougher on those that want to borrow to make sure they are responsible risks. That is what banks should do and their lack of that scrutiny is what caused our current economic troubles.

  91. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Your Boss — it was’t your moniker that got under my skin, nor politics. It was the smugness of your post. You’re lucky (whether the luck is a result of hard work, sacrifice, brains, inheritance) to be able to sit in relative comfort during these times.

  92. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Goldie, define “fair” please.

  93. a non
    February 20, 2011 at 7:01 pm

    Hi Fi, your frame is from a different era. You are stuck in that frame, because you ARE the box.

  94. Envy
    February 20, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    I’ve been poorer than poor. I’m not rich by the common definition, but am happy escaping powerless poverty. I remember and have sincere empathy for those currently suffering poverty – materially and otherwise. I give back.
    Yes, there is a surplus of stupid, selfish rich people. I know “starving” artists, selfless altruists, and loving social workers and educators. I’m married to one, son of another. Oh, yeah, expensive disease, too. (Not born with it, thank you)
    Still, personal responsibility and appropriate choices make or break a person. But, I’m evidence that people can make up for lapses. I’m self-employed and would have it no other way. I’m now an employer and satisfied to be one. I get frustrated with the diminishment of incentive to do well and the flourishing of disincentive to get off the couch. The entitlements, or supposed “rights”, people believe they have are absurd. Society is weaker and whinier and more slovenly than we deserve. When it “pays” better to sit at home than it does to work for a living, something is seriously upside down. I see more people fighting with their employers through their unions or waiting in line for their government checks (reward for not working and incentive to vote pocketbook, ie. slavery)than working an honest job. “There’s no monopoly of common sense on either side of the political fence.”
    Resenting success isnt the message we need to send our youth. It does seem to be the popular message, however. I’d like to see us all do better. We don’t have to drag someone down in order to pull ourselves up.

  95. skippy
    February 20, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    This has been such an interesting conversation. Yours truly is reading all of you with great interest. Hi-Fi and Mitch, Goldie, Envy, Tra, dearest Owl, and everyone in between– working hard and contributing worthy opinions what’s become a lively subject.

    Skippy has a different take, a greater danger you might not know. Maybe later after some commitments are finished? I am enjoying this disquisitive commentary. Until then, carry on.

  96. tra
    February 20, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    While Republicans usually react with fury at any attempts to limit the CEO paychecks, even for firms that got bailed out by the federal government, now we see the Republican governor of Wisconsin basically trying to enact a pay cap / mandatory ongoing pay reduction regime on all teachers and most other state workers:

    …most state workers would no longer be able to negotiate for better pensions or health benefits or anything other than higher salaries, which couldn’t rise at a quicker pace than the Consumer Price Index.

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/labor-pains-pro-walker-troopers-union-repudiates-endorsement-in-wisconsin.php?ref=fpblg

    In other words, the workers could only negotiate about how much their income will fail to keep up with inflation each year.

    If they were 100% successful in the negotiations in a given year, then they could potentially break even that year, except of course they wouldn’t even be allowed to negotiate about health and other benefits, so they’d still likely lose ground in those areas anyway.

    And even on the income side, nobody ever gets 100% of what they are negotiating for, so if the MOST they are allowed is to keep up with inflation, the in practice this system would result in a continuous degradation of the income and living standards of teachers and other government employees in Wisconsin.

    If you were to propose capping pay this way for the bailed-out bankers, the Republicans would be up in arms against that kind of “socialist attack on free-market capitalism.” But for some reason when you start talking about capping (and degrading) pay for teachers, and suddenly it’s no problem at all to have the state legislating pay caps.

  97. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    What is even uglier than class envy is the working classes being deliberated pitted against each other for the benefit of the rich. Using their political and economic power, the rich have created a false story line that blames people making a decent living, instead of those making a killing while paying record low taxes, for the job losses and economic problems we face, exploiting the fear and scapegoating the shrinking middle class. This mindset is sociopathic and always results in economic catastrophe when allowed to become public policy. Ban unions and see what happens to private sector wages and benefits, you stupid fucks.

  98. Goldie
    February 20, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    This article is a good read…http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/20/wis-unrest-exposed-gop-strategy-to-split-lower-classes-liberal-author-says/
    “The Republican strategy is to split the vast middle and working class – pitting unionized workers against non-unionized, public-sector workers against non-public, older workers within sight of Medicare and Social Security against younger workers who don’t believe these programs will be there for them, and the poor against the working middle class,” Robert Reich wrote on his blog Thursday.

  99. skippy
    February 20, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Nice take, Tra; pitted working classes and class envy well-taken, Plain Jane; Goldie, read your link and liked it. Hi-Fi? Mitch?

  100. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Good link, Goldie. What hasn’t been mentioned much in the news is the fact that Gov. Walker has been an anti-union zealot for many years, long before there was any sort of budget crisis. They want to take this country back to the 30’s where people were subservient and fearful of losing their jobs without recourse, working long hours for low wages, laboring and living in polluted environments while their “betters” get ever “better.” Cutting taxes for the rich and corporations (which Wisconsin and the federal government just did) while spewing a steady stream of attacks on public employees because they have about the only middle class jobs left, and then having the audacity to accuse others of waging class warfare is so over the top, only the completely clueless can miss it.

  101. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Goldie @ 7:56pm,

    How about the “Dualopoly Strategy”; or “The Strategy of the Machine”; or, “The Pyramid Scheme Strategy”, etc……

    Truth is – it aint just a republican reich wing conservative base function to split the country/citizenry. Democrat Leftist Gorilla Goons exist as well who split things apart. It comes down to “who is the beneficiaries”…………. darn healthcare exemptions by Obama too…….. so many people only like things to benefit them, not others, oh well, such is the human race.

    Anyhow, just food for thought.

    JL

  102. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    Hi again HiFi,

    Check out the marginal tax rates for married filing separately. Someone making $42,000 per year pays 25% of each additional dollar of earnings as federal income tax. When an employer decides to allocate an additional dollar in wages to an employee, the government takes payroll taxes of about 14% on that, although only half of that shows up as FICA and FUTA deductions on the employee’s pay stub. So in its path from employer to employee, about 39% of the money for wages gets taken by the government.

    At $106,000, FICA drops to zero on each additional dollar. At $200,000, the marginal income tax rate for someone married filing separately is 35%. So in its path from employer to employee, about 36% of the money for wages gets taken by the government.

    At an income of more than a million dollars, most likely the majority of your income is from capital gains. The government takes only 15% of long term capital gains.

    These are simply facts, HiFi. It’s also a fact that the top federal tax bracket was 70% when Reagan took office, and was 91% in the late 40s and in 1950.

    It’s true that there were lots of ways for wealthy people to avoid or evade those tax rates, but the tax rates still sent a signal that once your income was very high, you owed a lot of your income to society.

    The rise in income inequality over the past thirty years is also well documented.

    It’s not about envy, HiFi, it’s about democracy. It’s very hard for a democracy to survive at the levels of income inequality that we now take for granted. It simply becomes too easy for a small minority to buy elections and own the government.

  103. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    I need to point this out: success and material wealth are not the same thing.

    Most Christians think highly of Jesus. He wasn’t materially wealthy if the gospels can be believed, but most Christians would say he was pretty successful.

    Most of the great artists whose work we see in museums were not materially wealthy. People who bought their work may have become wealthy from owning it. Who created value for humanity — the art speculator or the artist? Would it be theft to say that the speculator should be taxed so that future artists can eat?

    Gandhi, as far as I know, never had great material wealth. Nor did Martin Luther King. Or Florence Nightingale. Or Dorothy Day.

    It may seem surprising to HiFi and Envy, but I can honestly say I don’t envy wealthy people. I admire some wealthy people for what they choose to do with their money, but usually the emotion wealthy people inspire in me is pity. The devotion of one’s life to acquisition, beyond a certain point, has always struck me as a symptom of mental illness or an acting out of tragic insecurity.

    There are far more important things than obtaining material wealth.

  104. God says
    February 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    Hi Fi is right.
    Mitch is just a poor dick.
    God

  105. High Finance
    February 20, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Wow Comrade, you really had to reach hard for that one. In order for you to make your silly little example work, you had to pick a married person filing separatly from their spouse, with no dependents and filing a short form with no other deductions or credits.

    So using your one-in-a-thousand people example, what do you think that $21 per hour person wants more ? To tax his boss more or to keep his job. Because if you raise the taxes dramatically like you espouse, it will cost the jobs of many, many people.

    It is class envy Mitch. Your denials to the contrary your posts drips with envy in every sentence.

  106. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    I love this comment :-)!!!!

    Goldie says:
    February 20, 2011 at 6:27 pm
    The request for fair taxing and evenly sharing the responsibility of supporting the infrastructure which supports our collective society is reasonable.

    Response = Answer to that solution is a National Sales Tax or Fair Tax where basics in life ARE NOT TAXED, but whereas non-basics in life are taxed. This is how wealth pays for the societal costs that are created by societal impacts + the poorest (and richest and everyone in between) don’t have to pay on basic needs transactions/sales. It is a beautiful concept to understand, in whole…whereas currently in confliction, the poor person or underpaid employee (poor person) who has not much money to spend will pay less in consumption/sales taxes compared to a more wealthy person, unless somehow, all-of-a-sudden, wealthy people lose their desire to spend their wealth which suggest they are losing desire to create wealth…I just don’t see wealthy people not spending their wealth. Yet, I can see wesalthy people bailing on the job creation part and saying frack-it; so, that means others will have to fill rank and file the job creation positions that will create wealth. Point is, mankind is addicted to wealth in majority; therefore, there will always be wealth being spent, and if a consumption tax specific to the impact of that particular consumed product is collected at the time of the transaction to be appropriated to specific areas of infrastructure needs, well then, giddy-up on horsey as it is a good thing to have those with more money pay their fair share without tax consultations that use loopholes and trickeries to adjust tax returns. Simplify the collection and appropriation processes imo.

    Oh, also with the poorer employee – how is THAT employee helped-out economically/financially long term, mid term or short term (it really don’t matter now) by having money shafted from their paycheck by an employer who is forced to do the IRS’s supposed work as a middle man tax collector, preparer, filer and servicer, keeping in mind that in so far as the employee is concerned, their paycheck becomes SMALLER? Nah, give employees all their earnings and they should decide its fate long, mid and short term. Obviously, big bad gubbamint can’t be trusted with money generated by poor employees too.

    JL

  107. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Dave Stancliff’s column explains it very well.

    link

  108. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 20, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Mitch,

    also Child deductions/credits.

    Government segregates people by using kids too, ya know….family units versus non-family units.

    Why?

    Pyramid population tax collection scheme – more people, more taxpayers and more people to control and force restrictions upon. It is a sardine can job imo.

    JL

  109. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 8:56 pm

    HiFi,

    Envy mentioned $21 an hour. I’m assuming that most people making $21 an hour are either single or need for their spouse to work to make ends meet. In either case, the numbers I use seem appropriate. Is that unreasonable? You are right that the child tax credit helps families with children, but the marginal rate remains unchanged.

    If you are sure that envy drips from my posts, who am I to argue? I guess I just don’t see it myself.

  110. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    God,

    Thanks for weighing in. I see you’ve changed your opinions since the New Testament. It’s always good to see someone able to grow, I guess.

  111. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    Oh, and Comrade HiFi? It just means “friend”. Won’t you be my comrade?

  112. The Challenger
    February 20, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    I’m afraid that HiFi sees things only in terms of envy; that those with smaller incomes are envious of those with larger ones. This is not necessarily true. My brother-in-law, who is quite well off (he has a business with 20 well-paid employees that yields him personally well over a million a year income) is a strong believer in progressive taxation. He votes for politicians that support higher taxes. He’s even said, “I vote against my own narrow economic self-interest because it’s the right thing to do for society.” This is hardly “class envy.” It’s fairness.

  113. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Please notice that HiFi didn’t respond to Mitch’s point about concentration of wealth destroying democracy (not to mention civil society). His type can’t acknowledge the inevitable results of wealth concentration and widening economic inequality because then they’d have to explain why they still support it.

    Hoarding is a mental disorder, Mitch.

  114. February 20, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Do you suppose HiFi has 87 cats?

  115. Say
    February 20, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    Skippy is cracking my shit up.

  116. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    Guess who?

    “…Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on.”

    Why, it was Thomas Jefferson, the envious bastard.

  117. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    It’s projection, Mitch. People like HiFi who admire material wealth above all else obviously envy those who have more and don’t understand that everyone isn’t like that. I understand him a little since I’m envious of gifted writers, artists and people who are madly in love. :)

  118. Sierra
    February 20, 2011 at 9:18 pm

    Come on Jane, Stancliff!? Really?

  119. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Don’t forget value-added tax for wealthier tax payers. I know so many great people who believe the opposite of Mitch, etc. in regard to economics. I have to agree with HiFi on this one.

  120. Mitch
    February 20, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Paul Krugman’s column in tomorrow’s NYT is relevant to our discussion, I think.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html

  121. Plain Jane
    February 20, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    Spot on, Mitch!

  122. Anonymous
    February 20, 2011 at 9:51 pm

    I find the term class envy disturbing. It assumes way too much; is degrading. Such an easy thing to throw out there to make others feel lesser and undermine their position.

  123. skippy
    February 21, 2011 at 12:10 am

    Wow. An exciting bout for the heavyweight crown, folks.

    Mitch and Jane tag-teaming in unison with combinations of hard left jabs followed by straight rights, followed by a left hook.

    Hi-Fi counters, blocking and slipping past, exploiting openings in the opponent’s position with his own counter attack of power punches, jabs, undercuts, and going the complete distance for both purse and title.

    Tra leads the comrade suckerpunch revolt while Goldie lends her candy cane body punch. God Says makes a quick jab. Sierra taps Jane a light one on the kisser. Henchie sticks and moves some elusive footwork leading to his equally infamous haymakers.

    Jane counters with a link. The Big H himself enters the fray with a kitty punch of his own to the button. Challenger, no palooka himself, plays peek-a-boo with ponderous pitty-pat punches of fairness over envy. Anonymous, the corner southpaw man, feints and shuffles to not undermine his position– and drawing the round to a close.

    What a night! No one saved by the bell, no dopes being roped, no throwing in the towel, no kissing of the canvas, and no one taking a nosedive. No complete knockouts either.

    These big galoots of tonights card may have to suffer a technical knockout– TKO– if the referee intercedes and stops the fight declaring them unable to continue because of their bad cuts or bruises and they simply cannot go on or cannot defend themselves.

    …and skippy never did tell of the great danger. This Remorseful Republican Wear majority draw was too exciting and a real nail-biting barnburner.

  124. Anonymous
    February 21, 2011 at 12:25 am

    Class envy is a Red Herring used to insult, but, the “communist” insult is most revealing.

    It illustrates how Hi-liar understands nothing about what his nation has become, and what the Founders warned against.

    In another era he would clearly be a royalist, supporting the continued flow of public wealth to subsidize the excesses of the already-powerful (corporations) while crying “commie” anytime the public tries to seize it back for public projects. (Almost as hard as having an elementary school reopened in a deserving little neighborhood).

    Top U.S. corporations enjoy interlocking directorates and a revolving door to the highest levels of government, enabling them access to author the legislation that liberalized Tariffs, liberalized job exports, liberalized tax law and offshore tax havens, liberalizing regulatory laws, limiting class-action lawsuits and corporate liability. While the taxpayers subsidizes these commies with a military that protects corporate trade, arming and supporting anti-union dictators to keep child-wages low, providing courts to enforce their contracts, and providing a stable currency…meanwhile, 61% of taxable U.S. corporations paid NO TAXES whatsoever, according to Senator Byron Dorgan, in his book, “Take This Job and Ship It”.

    A centralization and control Mussolini or King George would have envied.

    The LAST person to ask how THEY know when corporate tyranny has gone too far, and expect an honest answer, are traitors like this world’s foolish HiFi’s, posing as “conservatives”.

    They are dangerously deluded that they are beneficiaries… just like their Red Coat ancestors.

  125. High Finance
    February 21, 2011 at 8:21 am

    Yes Skippy, it is quite a brawl.

    Five or six against one. It is not fair, they don’t have a chance !

    12.25am. It must suck to be you. Living your life in fear & paranoia. Living life as a victim must be depressing.

  126. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 8:25 am

    Plain Jane says:
    February 20, 2011 at 9:04 pm
    Please notice that HiFi didn’t respond to Mitch’s point about concentration of wealth destroying democracy (not to mention civil society). His type can’t acknowledge the inevitable results of wealth concentration and widening economic inequality because then they’d have to explain why they still support it.

    Hoarding is a mental disorder, Mitch.

    Response: Reminds me of the local CPA who finangles tax returns of the poorer making them pay more but yet finangles the local elitist or wannabe elitist customer tax returns to where they save or really not pay a darn thing.

    If yor in the middle with respect to income levels and wealth (somewhere between rich and poor), inevitably, that lifestyle for that range will be worse off than being only either rich or poor.

    America is one big financial Pyramid Scheme scam job in reality. It is who is able to recognize it and save their own hyde (spell check).

    Public Employee Unions are involved in that right now. So too are those waiver recipients of Obama Health Care (ok supporters, defend that one and why McDonald’s gets a waiver cuz it employs many piss poor jobs). Let us see, the bailouts to the banks by fascist Federal Government redirecting wealth not even earned yet into the wealthy portfolios (is there more loans yet, pffffffft). Let us see, municipal fee increases and surcharges. Let us see, school bond measures. Let us see where all the tax dollars go and how much was printed funny money in the form of taxes….(QE).

    JL

  127. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 8:33 am

    Mitch,

    The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on.”

    Why, it was Thomas Jefferson, the envious bastard.

    Response: Problem is, this assumes GOD created earth and the heavens and that earth was intended to be all about mankind and not that which else exists as life on the planet. Also, not that I wholely disagree (holy I do), but those against guns and other weapons will quickly learn that a lifestyle allowing more free flows upon the earth as TJ implies means that more aggresive and aggravated conducts will occur, thus creating a lifestyle of more violences and opportunities for violences where people will die. Further, the statement lacks over-population references and Pyramid Scheme realities.

    JL

  128. Plain Jane
    February 21, 2011 at 8:33 am

    Interesting little factoid:

    Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

    South Carolina -50th
    North Carolina -49th
    Georgia -48th
    Texas -47th
    Virginia -44th

    Wisconsin — WITH its collective bargaining for teachers — is ranked 2nd in the country.

  129. Proletariat
    February 21, 2011 at 8:53 am

    Funny how someone who flaunts their economic status (High Finance ) continues to claim “class envy makes you ugly”. What a tool!

  130. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Plain Jane says:
    February 21, 2011 at 8:33 am
    Interesting little factoid:

    Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

    South Carolina -50th
    North Carolina -49th
    Georgia -48th
    Texas -47th
    Virginia -44th

    Wisconsin — WITH its collective bargaining for teachers — is ranked 2nd in the country.

    Response: Good factoid to present. Now, how it (5 states) compares to the lowest rung of CBA states would also be an interesting factoid; and that also interesting is the geographic segregation built upon the slavery days in the (#4)southern states. (#5)Texas is kinda the displaced state in the fold with immigration as well.

    Wisconsin….hmmm, northern white class history and wealth in greater proportions, rural versus less rural (health and mindsets), quality of life differences, etc…. so many things to extrapolate. I guess it is rubbing into the noses of the poorer schools and students when the wealthier white Wisconsinites heritage allows their teachers to take students via striking actions to go protest their own undoing at some rally by signing a document saying they are sick. That is kinda a free ride, don’t ya think, but hey, @ #2 for union public relations, they feel their communal earned that, right? Students are so manipulatable as well – bet that plays into the deceptions too when protecting segregated labor.

    JL

  131. Mitch
    February 21, 2011 at 10:26 am

    HiFi said:

    “Wow Comrade, you really had to reach hard for that one. In order for you to make your silly little example work, you had to pick a married person filing separatly from their spouse, with no dependents and filing a short form with no other deductions or credits.”

    Just in case anyone took HiFi seriously when he suggested that I was using a rare example, let me point out that I wasn’t. If the example involves a single person earning $42,000, the numbers work out the same. If the example involves two married people each making $42,000, the numbers work out the same.

    And, perhaps unlike HiFi, most people either claim only the standard deduction or have a modest mortgage deduction. But, of course, if you are not making a lot of money, it’s difficult to save up for a down payment, so the mortgage deduction remains out of reach.

    So what I said really applies to a lot of taxpayers whose household income is in the $40,000 to $90,000 range — they pay higher marginal rates on their combined income taxes and payroll taxes than do people making two to ten times as much.

    HiFi didn’t even respond to another point I was making: the truly wealthy take most of their income in the form of capital gains, which are taxed at only 15%, and only when you sell your asset.

    The mortgage deduction is interesting. It’s actually another example of the way benefits to the rich are disguised in the tax code as benefits to the middle class.

    If its purpose were to encourage homeownership, it would cost LESS to give everyone a tax CREDIT for the first $20,000 of down payment they make on the first home purchase they are able to make. That would help people get into their first homes, and the credit would be worth the same no matter how rich or poor you were. By making it a deduction on interest payment to banks, it effectively acts as a subsidy to banks, enabling them to charge higher interest rates than the market would otherwise bear.

    If people in the Tea Party ever actually wake up and examine the true numbers for themselves, the nation’s oligarchs may become very unhappy with the movement they astroturfed.

    Spasiba, Comrade Hifi.

  132. skippy
    February 21, 2011 at 10:43 am

    What a brawl it is, alright. Hi-Fi in fine form throwing down the gauntlet early this morning. Absorbing the plethora of bum’s rush leftie blows from all sides to both breadbasket and chin, countering with punctilious straight rights and a cross, the man is still standing, no glass jaw leading, not even close to what should’ve been a standing eight count for the more pusillanimous last night. I’m tellin’ ‘ya, this guy’s a machine, a fighter, an animal that simply won’t say quit!

    No bleeder himself, Henchie tosses in the perfunctory pyramid scheme reality bolos and a couple of left/right jabs, God, and funny money. Pragmatist PJ hits it short and sweet with only the facts, ma’am, covering defensively with educational quality and collective bargaining uppercuts.

    Proletariat strikes with a minor hook claiming the Champ isn’t exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Ouch!

    Now Mitch is back in the ring! The Comrade is back! Cogently armed with big guns flying and… Oh no! Can Hi-Fi possibly defend his belt against so many nattering nabobs of negativism? Stay tuned, folks, it’s gonna be a long draw and it don’t look pretty. Get the ringside physician over here now, someone’s gonna be on the ropes or face down kissing the canvas resin.

  133. Mitch
    February 21, 2011 at 10:54 am

    skippy,

    Must you use such a violent metaphor?

    Please, why not think of us as happy, collaborative organic farmers? Some of us are planting seeds in other people’s minds, and some of us are contributing manure. :)

  134. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Capital Gains – Remember that anyone, including the poor, are generally allowed to earn income and invest it – if they have a job and can save (we all know American’s are poor savers). So, post earned income taxation, someone invests their earned income after taxes. I don’t believe that on invested money, the tax rate should be high; but, it should be fair in the sense that it will compel movements of that wealth so that it makes a better life for as many people as possible who are not directly connected to that wealth (it burns to know some of the wealthiest people attained that wealth illegally, grafting, bait and switches, consumer product frauds, investment scams, etc.)- I know there will still exist manipulation that benefits the top tier, but the key is fairness. Investing is another form for people to save their wealth and expand it a bit based upon the everyday risks of being an investor – you gain and lose, but you have to be involved or you are toast (SEC is key, but currently, an agency of frauds). It does bring out the argument in my mind that others have with regard to labor being taxed, but that investments should too be taxed much higher (THERE IS a maximum return point that which is affected when discussing tax generations). The conflict in a sense is the poor person. 1) The poor person can’t open an IRA if they make below a certain threshhold – even if they receive a family gift under $12,500 for that tax year. 2) The poor person tends to have less to invest, so a bit of jealousy and envy does occur…how much, can’t exactly tabulate. 3) The poor person can be a small businees owner who just made a little profit, but not enough to meet some criteria threshhold to be able to fund the IRA in part or in whole for the maximum allowance to deposit that tax year. 4) So many trickeries by the gubbamint and private sector connected to the investment world that the tax rates against investments being too low is not a real concern, whereas the inlaiden fraud and corruption and conspiracies to engage in such activities within the financial sector that from the outside of the trade floors totally fracks up the investments of those investors subjected to the scam jobs being perpetrated by the wealthiest who play paperwork games (this is where the poorest investors tend to get wiped out in droves – but alas, Madoff types get some biggies too!).

    JL

  135. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Wisconsin CBA factoid

    Response: A snip-it below:

    Wisconsin ranks 3rd in the nation in SAT scores, but with a participation rate of just 4%. On the ACT, with a much more representative partcipation rate of 69%, it was tied for 17th. In comparison…

    •Virginia was 34th on the SAT with 67% participation, 13th on the ACT with 22% participation.
    •Texas was 45th on the SAT with 53% participation, 33rd on the ACT with 33% participation.
    •Georgia was 48th on the SAT with 74% participation, 34th on the ACT with 44% participation.
    •North Carolina was 38th on the SAT with 63% participation, 20th on the ACT with 16% participation.
    •South Carolina was 49th on the SAT with 66% participation, 44th on the ACT with 52% participation.

    “Wisconsin is clearly above the other five states in both SAT and ACT scores, but the gap isn’t anywhere near as big as the pro-union tweets suggest.

    Among high ACT participation states, Wisconsin ranks something like 4th in the nation. But among high SAT participation states, Virginia ranks about 5th in the nation — almost all the states with better SAT scores than Virginia have far smaller participation rates, drawing on a far more elite test-taking group.

    I’m open to seeing new data on this, but for now I’m going to mark this claim down as highly exaggerated.”

    JL

  136. BlowByBlow
    February 21, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    Skippy’s givin’ his best Howard Cosell. Keep it up, I’m enjoying the show.

  137. Anonymous
    February 21, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    High Finance says:
    February 21, 2011 at 8:21 am

    12.25am. It must suck to be you. Living your life in fear & paranoia. Living life as a victim must be depressing.

    ****************************************

    Unable to contest a single fact I listed, this poor fool thinks he’s a beneficiary of the New Gilded Age!

    The “fear and paranoia” he projects is clearly his own… No doubt, from watching the world riot against their New Gilded Age…this “HiFi” buffoon is probably beefing up the pad locks on his outdoor barbecue as I type…the price inevitably paid by those who want it all, and think it’s possible.

    Put simply: Trillions spent to forcibly extract the world’s resources, Trillions spent to maintain possession. Trillions that were harvested from an empire’s subjects who are increasingly omitted from their share of the “take”.

    Thus, the ancient and sad reality of every Empire preceding ours, that lived and vanished in FEAR. All participants are victims of empire.

    Oh, but OURS will be different…??

    How so?

    Patriots are righteously angry when centralized private interests rival the state, authoring a nation’s legislation and controlling public wealth and resources for their own profit; painfully similar to what the Founding Fathers sought to escape, and warned us would return.

    It must suck to be on the wrong side of history.

  138. skippy
    February 21, 2011 at 4:33 pm

    Mitch’s post @10:54 and point is well taken. Yours truly’s tongue-in-cheek whimiscal frolic was not for the serious and violence should never be condoned. Let’s try again.

    All was happy in the kingdom. Mirth and merriness abounded between the happy, collaborative organic farmers, knaves and knights, serfs and squires, proletariat and bourgeoisie alike, all planting seeds of their physical and spiritual abundance to mulitply and prosper with wisdom, grace, and great titillation.

    Surveyeing his kingdom, Hi-Fi liked what he saw: Scribe Plain Jane dutifully alotting links, Noble Henchie slaying injustices, Anonymous authoring warnings of the Gilded Age, BlowByBlow jestering for the masses, Owl the Falconeer happily playing his lute with vivacious gladness and cheer of both heart and spirit. Skippy? He’s shoveling manure in the back.

    Yes, Hi-Fi was most proud of his domain. Empire, crown, throne, and scepter being in good order, all was at peace. The minions were happy, the kingdom safe, his gold wisely secured in Treasury for a rainy day and piling up at pretty obscene valuations given the inflation rate. There was also plenty of mead. And, the promising Roundup GMO contract with Monsanto was right around the corner, too. Jobs, health care, student loans, and unemployment hadn’t been invented yet. There were some homeless unfortunates so kind King Hi-Fi gave them all work. They all left.

    Yes, it’s good to be king.

  139. Mitch
    February 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Excellent, skippy, thank you. But you forgot to say the all-organic Roundup contract with Monsanto, being written up on sustainably-grown papyrus from the exotic lands to the East.

  140. Envy
    February 21, 2011 at 6:35 pm

    The levity that skippy affords this discussion is well received. Gratitude. I really needed that. I can’t be alone in my appreciation of your wit and wordsmith.

  141. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    February 21, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Good Point Envy. I know that I have not laughed like this ever at the Sunday Comics or even a lot of comedy shows. Skippy’s got somethin’ good going and it sure ain’t negative. Me thinks many peoples likey Skippy’s inputs :-).

    JL

  142. High Finance
    February 22, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Skippy forgot to mention my Court Jester.

    Now who could that be ? ……….

  143. skippy
    February 22, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Uh oh. The King is back. Back to work everyone! Trusting our Kind Potentate has returned abounding in joyous and plentiful merriment, mead, and maidens, perhaps he’ll be equally abounding in good spirits? If not, skippy’s gonna be shovelng a lot more manure these days.

    Thanks, all.

  144. Auntie Arkley
    February 26, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Glad to get you brain-dead right-wingers upset! I thought we were posting t-shirts. I saw that on a t-shirt in Berkeley a few months ago. Though I must admit, I agree with the sentiment.

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