Home > Humboldt County > MoveOn to rally against “immoral budget”

MoveOn to rally against “immoral budget”

The Redwood chapter of MoveOn.org will rally Tuesday at the Humboldt County Courthouse to “demonstrate our indignation as our country is stripped of rights, services and jobs by corporation-owned politicians.”

Rally goers are encouraged to show up at 4:30 with signs and chants to oppose the below list of proposals.  All ages are welcome.

Top 10 Worst Things about the
Republicans’ Immoral Budget

The Republican budget would:

1. Destroy 700,000 jobs, according to an independent economic analysis.

2. Zero out federal funding for National Public Radio and public television.

3. Cut $1.3 billion from community health centers–which will deprive more than three million low-income people of health care over the next few months.

4. Cut nearly a billion dollars in food and health care assistance to pregnant women, new moms, and children.

5. Kick more than 200,000 children out of pre-school by cutting funds for Head Start.

6. Force states to fire 65,000 teachers and aides, dramatically increasing class sizes, thanks to education cuts.

7. Cut some or all financial aid for 9.4 million low- and middle-income college students.

8. Slash $1.6 billion from the National Institutes of Health, a cut that experts say would “send shockwaves” through cancer research, likely result in cuts to Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s research, and cause job losses.

9. End the only federal family planning program, including cutting all federal funding that goes to Planned Parenthood to support cancer screenings and other women’s health care.

10. Send 10,000 low-income veterans into homelessness by cutting in half the number of veterans who get housing vouchers this year.

[Footnotes.]

  1. tra
    March 14, 2011 at 1:00 am

    Those 10 things are all quite awful. Meanwhile, here’s one of the worst things about Obama’s proposed budget:


    The president promoted the issue again last month in his 2012 budget, which called for spending another $36 billion on loan guarantees to help build more nuclear plants.”

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/13/110282/yucca-mountain-still-alive-under.html

    I wonder how many rooftop solar systems and wind turbines you could build with $36 billion?

  2. Anonymous
    March 14, 2011 at 3:45 am

    “But even staunch supporters of nuclear power are now advocating a pause in licensing and building new reactors in the United States to make sure that proper safety and evacuation measures are in place. Environmental groups are reassessing their willingness to see nuclear power as a linchpin of any future climate change legislation. Mr. Obama still sees nuclear power as a major element of future American energy policy, but he is injecting a new tone of caution into his endorsement.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/science/earth/14politics.html?hp

  3. Elena
    March 14, 2011 at 7:08 am

    After the rally folks should head to the city council meeting and pack the room…

  4. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 14, 2011 at 7:10 am

    Wow,

    How did this country let the financial problems get this far? Greed at ALL LEVELS….nah, only the republicans huh?? Hey, lets go make some babies cuz we need the assistance AND we’ll get more subsidies too – gotta love the socialized political tools that allow politicians the opportunity for power and control.

    1. Over-population is LOSING JOBS!

    2. Federal radio funding – tax dollars should not be going to fund “public radio” in an age of technology and various devices being used for various media outlets and opportunities for communication. Read a book!

    3. 1.3 billion in cuts – this is a concern for public health aside from abortions

    4. Cuts to pregnant women, new moms, children – necessary to prevent further irresponsible baby making??? – oops, did I tick some subsidized parents off? Time to get back to rewarding responsibility, yes?

    5. Funding for Pre-school – education cuts hurt in the long run.

    6. Teachers – seem to get the shaft much of the time; yet, were teachers being honest with themselves all these years that debt was building upon itself in this declining state of California?

    7. College Students – Been subsidized wayyyyyyy toooooooooo longggggggg!

    8. Let those who want to continue the research, FUND IT!

    9. Men’s HealthCare – What is that? Equal Protection standards….what are those?

    10. Victims (and foolish ones at that) who trusted their government and especially the MILITARY! OK, back to donations and aides to other DEVASTATED countries cuz here at home, everyone is taken care of, right?

    Unfortunately, fairness is ACROSS THE BOARD FUNDING CUTS. Ridicule is free.

    JL

  5. March 14, 2011 at 7:12 am

    Well, this is flat out stupid.

    You’d do better to march on Chesbro’s office. You know, the legislators who put your state in the mess it is in?

    Fools.

  6. Anonymous
    March 14, 2011 at 7:15 am

    $2 Billion a WEEK for war in Afghanistan, and no mention here or at MoveOn. Pity.

  7. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 14, 2011 at 7:16 am

    C’Mon Rose,

    It is a mundane Monday Morning and early….no need to confuse the already confused over the financial Tsunamis rippling throughout the world. Afterall, how many NEEDY became NEEDY just to become NEEDY because its an easy livin lifestyle to be subsidized. Aye, funding irresponsibility is such a losing proposition.

    JL

  8. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 14, 2011 at 7:19 am

    Funny how the billions spent on war never seem to be argumentative points until “DOMESTIC program fundings” are tinkered with…….. “A day late and a dollar short” won’t even pass muster.

    JL

  9. Anonymous
    March 14, 2011 at 7:28 am

    JL, this anonymous has marched. Peace.

  10. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 7:45 am

    When Chesbro vote for unfunded tax cuts? When did Chesbro vote for a trumped up war on a country who never attacked us? When did Chesbro vote to deregulate the banking / real estate industry to allow them to crash the economy? When did Chesbro vote to bail out the crooks? When did Chesbro make a deal with the energy crooks who defrauded the state of billions? Oh, that’s right, he didn’t. Blaming Chesbro for the state of our economy makes no more sense than blaming public employees, but when you don’t have any sense….

  11. Decline To State
    March 14, 2011 at 8:11 am

    Hey, don’t look at me. I didn’t vote these clowns into office.

    I’m afraid this is just America getting what it asked for. Why anyone would vote for these circumstances remains a mystery to me.

  12. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 8:13 am

    Obama will have doubled the National Debt in his eight years. In other words, will have added more to the debt in his eight years than was added to the debt in the country’s first 233 years.

    The deficit in February was something like $205 BILLION dollars, more than the debt was in 2007. And 2007’s deficit was unconscionable.

    That is the real immorality. Cast your greed aside and for God’s sake think of your grandchildren’s and future generations. Our country’s future is at stake.

  13. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 8:15 am

    Some Anonymous said the war in Afghanistan costs $2 billion dollars a week.

    I don’t know if that is true or not, but lets put it in perspective please. The deficit is running about $7 billion dollars PER DAY !!!!!!

  14. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 8:27 am

    If you add up the Bush tax cuts, wars, bail outs, decreased revenues from the economy crashing and job losses due to the aforementioned, you might be surprised at the total, HiFi. You certainly aren’t any sort of financial wizard.

  15. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 8:28 am

    Where you whining about your children’s future when you were demanding more tax cuts, HiFi? Of course not. Then the government was STEALING your money.

  16. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 8:30 am

    It’s time for Mom and Pop to pick up the slack. Government is not your Daddy. Hopefully you did not come from an immoral family that no longer exists because of you liberal ideology.

  17. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 8:41 am

    The tax cuts and increased defense spending were deliberately designed to force cuts in domestic programs which the right hates and now they are blaming the programs for the deficit which they created. Cutting the wages and programs which benefit working classes and the poor in a time of recession would have disastrous impact on the economy, but you right wingers only care about protecting the tax cuts for the rich which caused the whole mess and NOW a large number of you are screaming that we aren’t getting involved in yet another war, in Libya this time. If I believed in hell I would wish you all an eternity roasting slowly.

  18. Steve
    March 14, 2011 at 8:50 am

    jeffy said: how many NEEDY became NEEDY just to become NEEDY because its an easy livin lifestyle to be subsidized? are you for real? Easy livin lifestyle? Just STFU already!

  19. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 8:54 am

    The doctrine of eternal torment is a lie. Hell fire will do it’s work and then go out. Don’t worry Jane, the church is commanded to take care of the widows and orphans. The Bible says you should be content with food and clothing, and not to covet anything that belongs to someone else.

  20. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 14, 2011 at 8:58 am

    Many needy programmed folks also voted in favor of wars and higher defense spending; so, should they be the first cut from domestic funding sources by the headless, double edges swordsman? Or,across the board cuts that are a percentage of the budget? Or, some total cuts with the remining being across the board cuts???

    Tough choices – maybe America can keep its donations for this year and next year to fix here at home problems.

    Remember the time change, hope your i-phone did not go haywire.

    JL

  21. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 9:10 am

    The bible says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven and that people should give away all they own and if a man asks for your shirt, give him your cloak as well. The reason the bible has such lasting appeal is that you can find a quote to justify anything, including the murder of women and children. Only fundie cretins take it seriously.

  22. March 14, 2011 at 9:15 am

    The “Deficit” only matters when programs related to working people are in question.
    The Ruling class just rolls out whatever lie looks good. Not that they have to make sense, their media will put forth whatever nonsense they’re told.
    What is leading to more and more violence is the smugness with which the anti-Americans go about undermining the country.
    When the point at which people begin to react is reached, it will be too late for peaceful change.
    It’s not very funny when Goose-steppers here talk about major issues as if there weren’t actually people losing everything and ending up on the street. Or having their school loans cut before they finish so that they’re stuck with only the debt and no degree to help pay it off.
    What will you do when the disenfranchised have nothing left to lose? When life no longer matters and attacking so-called “Collaborators” is the only satisfaction there is?
    You think it’s ok to let children starve.
    You think it’s ok to take away American jobs and turn us into slaves of the wealthy.
    You think it’s ok destroy people’s lives in the name of “Fiscal Responsibility”.
    Keep talking to the suffering, so when they lose it they’ll know who it is locally that supported their destruction.
    A person with nothing left to lose is a pretty dangerous commodity.

  23. Let's stick to the facts
    March 14, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Just in case anyone wants to fling around some facts, rather than flaunt your ignorance and bias (HiFi and the bible thumper) take a look at this condensed version of I.O.U.S.A.

    Excellent presentation of the financial crisis.

    For those too lazy or stuck in your ideology to bother with educating yourselves, I’ll sneak in just one fact for you:

    The deficit has always grown most under Republicans. Like it or not, believe it or not. It is a fact that Clinton zeroed out the deficit. Then it rose again, very sharply, under Bush.

  24. Let's stick to the facts
    March 14, 2011 at 9:24 am

    “…people losing everything and ending up on the street.

    …it’s ok to take away American jobs

    …it’s ok to let children starve.”

    It’s called “family values”. Let the bible thumper explain it.

  25. olmanriver
    March 14, 2011 at 9:24 am

    Here is a chart that shows what class war looks like, comparing some of the “shared sacrifices” to the tax breaks for the wealthy.

  26. Jim Jankins
    March 14, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Thanks olmanriver. That link certainly show that there is class war being waged on the poor and working.

  27. March 14, 2011 at 10:22 am

    Republicans should be careful what they wish for.

    Government spending now is over 30% of GDP.

    Shrink government spending by only 10% you immediately contract the entire economy by 3%. DOW down 10% right away. Unemployment (official) up to 13%.

    Shrink governmnet spending by 30% (roughly enough to balance the budget) and you contract the economy by 10%. DOW down by 40-60%. Unemployment over 20%.

    It may be true (at least open to honest debate) that the deficit is too large and the budget needs to be balanced. We can debate that. If so, it needs to be done gently, like turning a supertanker around, not crashing it into an iceberg.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  28. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 10:43 am

    You’re such a zealot PJ, you rarely think. I never “Whined” for more tax CUTS. In fact I have not advocated for more tax cuts at all.

    And Obama’s Porkulus bill and current spending dwarfs anything Bush ever did.

    The increased defense spending is a understandable reaction to engaging in two wars at the same time.

  29. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 10:46 am

    And “Just The Facts” is a perfect example of somebody using “Facts” to prove some political point when the “facts” by itself are meaningless.

    It is the why behind the facts that are important to understand. Otherwise you misinterpret the data just like “Just the Facts” does all the time.

  30. March 14, 2011 at 11:03 am

    The two biggest problems in American politics for the last 25 years have been the Cult of Ronald Reagan and the Cult of Bill Clinton.

    Sure Clinton balanced the budget. But he did so with a Republican Congress, and during his presidency government spending was only 20% of GDP, not the 30% that it is now. The government was 50% smaller (in relation to GDP) only 20 years ago.

    On the other hand it is indisputable that the deficits and national debt buildup is a result of Reaganomics pursued by Reagan and Bush Jr. Reagan tripled the debt during his presidency, it leveled during Bush Sr. (who called Reaganomics “voodoo economics) and Clinton and then tripled again from 3 trillion to over 9 trillion under Junior.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  31. Let's stick to the facts
    March 14, 2011 at 11:17 am

    HiFi, how about some data from a credible source to back up your assertions:

    “And Obama’s Porkulus bill and current spending dwarfs anything Bush ever did.”

    “And “Just The Facts” is a perfect example of somebody using “Facts” to prove some political point when the “facts” by itself are meaningless.”

    Damn those facts. Meaningless! Ignore them! HiFi would never use facts to make a political point, because the facts do not support his points.

    Another HiFi Lie: “Otherwise you misinterpret the data just like “Just the Facts” does all the time.”

    ALL the time, HiFi? Two posts equal ALL the time? Prone to hyperbole, aren’t you, HiFi?

  32. Mitch
    March 14, 2011 at 11:26 am

    HiFi is right about one thing. President Obama continued the giveaway to the banks in an effort to avoid having Wall Street completely collapse during his first few months in office.

    He yielded to Wall Street blackmail and as a result further exploded the deficit in an attempt to avoid getting blamed for the Bush depression. The explosion is still all about eight years of Bush, though.

    We’ll all be paying for this decision for a long time, but it’s hard to see how Obama could have done anything else without the markets collapsing completely.

    Why anyone is willing to be President I will never understand.

  33. Anonymous
    March 14, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Hardly worth commenting on. MoveON should move on — over, down, and hopefully out.

  34. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    HiFi is incapable of grasping anything that doesn’t fit his belief system. He denies that continuing the tax cuts, which were scheduled to expire, is in reality another tax cut. He doesn’t care about anyone but himself and certainly doesn’t care that his political agenda is destroying this country. Their lies about the consequences of their tax cuts will never be true no matter now many times they tell them. Even the most clueless of people are waking up to understand that the only think that “trickled” down on them was SHITE.

  35. Not A Native
    March 14, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Hi Fi, you find increased defense spending “a understandable reaction to engaging in two wars at the same time”.

    OK, I get it. Your analysis implicitly supports choices made by the former US president and congress.

    Why then, Hi Fi, don’t you find that increased spending on domestic infrastructure, job training, education, and social services are ‘an understandable reaction to middle class economic declines and recession caused job losses’??

  36. March 14, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Since when have we had a local chapter of MoveOn? And how many other phony groups around here are they linked to? Does any money come from them to these other groups?

    I seem to recall the Times-Standard and Patti Berg PROMISING to leave no stone unturned when it comes to this shit.

  37. March 14, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    If rose doesn’t approve of a group’s ideology, they’re “phony.” Multiple developer groups with different names and identical goals are totally legit, however.

  38. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    It’s a conspiracy. All the shadowy “phony groups” are uniting against you. Somebody better do an investigation about this “shit!” LMAO @ Rose

  39. Anonymous
    March 14, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Great!!!They can move from there to Eureka City Hall for the Clowncil Meeting :)

  40. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    Plain Jane says…..”The bible says it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven and that people should give away all they own and if a man asks for your shirt, give him your cloak as well. The reason the bible has such lasting appeal is that you can find a quote to justify anything, including the murder of women and children.

    You’re being intellectually dishonest, or your doctrines are messed up. The only truthful statement you made was that the Bible states it’s easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. Which is true.

    The reference to the cloak, is in regards to being sued and found guilty. And nowhere in the Bible does it justify murder. Yes the Bible allows governments to kill as a penalty for certain crimes, but that is not murder.

  41. Mitch
    March 14, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    2:53,

    Exodus 31:15
    2 Samnuel 6:6-7
    Isaiah 14:21
    and so on, ad nauseum

  42. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Never change PJ, if you ever post a thoughtful response to anything half the posters here would drop dead of shock.

    NAN, I do not equate building a new freeway to protecting Marines fighting for their lives on the front lines.

  43. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Poor Pa and Ma obviously hasn’t read the bible, Mitch.

    Give away your possessions
    Matthew 6:20
    Matthew 19:21
    Mark 10:21
    Luke 12:33
    Luke 18:22
    Timothy 6:19

    Murder women and children
    Exodus 32:26-29
    Deuteronomy 13:13-19
    Joshua 6:20-21

  44. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    It’s always funny when HiFi speaks for other posters. Today it’s half of them.

  45. Not A Native
    March 14, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Hi Fi, Does infrastructure not better American lives? Believe I was asking:

    Why would you find less merit in a decision to protect the health, safety, and welfare of middle class Americans than you find in a decision to dispatch and keep Marines in a place where they are targeted for killing?

    If the very costly effort to support Marines in peril isn’t bettering the lives of Americans, what is the value in doing it?

  46. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 14, 2011 at 4:35 pm

    When the money is gone, class warfare becomes heightened. Mentioning budgest cuts and seeking more responsibility from the subsidized will surely get you in trouble as being a mean person…… huh sigh.

    How about everyone just keep their own earnings instead of giving it to the “middle man”(gubbamint)? Then, pay your impacts as you go……yep, that ought to make people look for jobs that don’t exist. So, in a time when jobs are dwindling or don’t exist, and IF people who are best defined as “poor to middle class already”, THEN how is it that more money coming out of this “PTMC economic group” will fix the programs for “this economic class/group” which is depending on NOT SPENDING MONEY? Again, might as well keep your own earnings if it is just a taking to give right back to the same folks. Make the cuts across the board as a percentage of the budget in my opinion.

    JL

  47. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    But that is the question NAN, one where smart people can disagree on.

    Is the war in Afghanistan & Iraq “bettering the lives of Americans”.

  48. March 14, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    How could “smart people” possibly believe that our imperial adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq are “bettering the lives of Americans”?

  49. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    He probably meant bettering the lives of SOME Americans, meaning those who own oil and military industry shares. You know, the only people who matter.

  50. Let's stick to the facts
    March 14, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    HiFi, I’m still waiting for some credible evidence from you that would refute the information in I.O.U.S.A. Your statement:

    “using “Facts” to prove some political point when the “facts” by itself are meaningless.”

    is not a legitimate response.

    HiFi, when engaged in a debate, you are expected to present verifiable information. Facts. If the facts are taken out of context so as to distort their meaning, as you have suggested, it is your task to explain how and why the facts were misrepresented.

    You don’t actually believe you have convinced any thinking person, do you?

  51. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 5:57 pm

    There is hardly any room for debate about the need for the initial invasion of Afghanistan and the need for as many of the al-Qaeda and Taliban to die as possible.

    Staying behind & nation building was a mistake.

    I was actually against the original invasion of Iraq. But once in I was in favor of going all the way & removing Hussein. We should have left the army in power & let them install another more sane dictator.

    Where lefties make their mistakes on Iraq is crying that it was all just because we wanted to control their oil & make Bush & Cheney’s friends rich. That is ridiculous, paranoid & nonsense. It was about the free flow of oil and the security of the region, nothing more.

    Or that it was George Bush wanting to one-up his father by finishing what his father started. Those claims are childish.

  52. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Stick to The Facts; If you are going to use “facts” then use them, don’t abuse them.

    Simply looking at the economic data and laying all blame or giving all credit to the President who happens to be in office at the time, indicates dishonesty or lack of knowledge about the power of the presidency.

    The economy is far, far more responsible for the improving deficit figure under Clinton than Clinton ever was. If you’ll bother to remember, Clinton’s early budgets had deficits to come far into the future. The Republicans coming to power in the House & Senate also curtailed his spending plans. The failure of Hillary’s health care takeover helped curtail the spending.

    The opposite is true for Bush. The economy was already slowing down & headed for a recession when Bush was sworn in. 9/11 deepened the recession. The invasion of Afghanistan & Iraq increased the need for government spending. But Bush was no conservative when it came to spending either.

    But Obama is solely responsible for the almost ONE TRILLION DOLLAR Porkulus bill. He could have vetoed it but lied to us & claimed it was to stimulate the economy. It was only intended to stimulate the power of the federal government and reward his friends.

    So Stick It, stop using facts without understanding what they mean.

  53. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    HiFi is just parroting Limbaugh. He has done no research on how many jobs the stimulus created or saved and doesn’t have a clue what it added to the GDP. He can’t grasp that stagnate wages for the majority while millions of jobs were outsourced was why the economy started to tank. He actually believes that the be all and end all of the economy is the friggin stock market. So of course, he doesn’t understand why giving the people at the top tax cuts which encourage them to keep more and cut charitable contributions and pay lower wages is why the wages were stagnating. He can’t understand that as people’s incomes declined relative to COL they had financial problems and couldn’t make their payments. Demanding more wage cuts from the working classes in a time of recession is business as usual for his type, but a crime to ask the richest people to pay 3% more after their years of tax cuts and ever increasing wealth at the top.

  54. E. Percival Ne'er-do-well Esquire III
    March 14, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    ” Well, this is flat out stupid.” garners Rose the Michelle Bachman award of this thread.

  55. Let's stick to the facts
    March 14, 2011 at 7:46 pm

    HiFi says: laying all blame or giving all credit to the President who happens to be in office at the time, indicates dishonesty or lack of knowledge

    HiFi says: But Obama is solely responsible for the almost ONE TRILLION DOLLAR Porkulus bill.

    Because there is no Congress?

    Your words will come back to bite you, HiFi. Think before you write.

    I suggest that you actually watch I.O.U.S.A. It does not try to lay blame for the deficit on ONE party (Democrats) like you and Rush and Fox do. But the figures speak for themselves.

    Republicans may claim an equal amount of responsibility for the mess we are in. Possibly more, but I won’t be the judge.

    If you expect to garner any respect, at least have the honesty to admit this. I realize it’s a style of thinking and communicating that is foreign to ditto heads.

    Non-judgmental,rational analysis is sorely lacking, largely because of the influence of Fox and Rush. THIS is one of the fundamental problems in our country now. Try to break out of the mental cage you live in, HiFi. Show that you truly love your country.

  56. March 14, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    Hi-Fi I appreciate your honesty about Afghanistan. And I
    agree with you about Iraq. Once our guys are committed; get in, get it done, get out. problem was and is the corruption and greed that wastes American lives.
    Both wars are now settled into great money-makers for defense contractors and oil companies, while betraying the honor or our service-people. They don’t fight for profit. It’s treason to use them for private interests.

  57. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    Fully 25% of the deficit is due to the wars. The Bush tax cuts from 2001 to 2010 added 2.48 Trillion from 2001 to 2010 in addition to tanking the economy because working class people had less money to meet their financial obligations. So I put the whole mess on the Republicans and I further believe that they did it deliberately to force cutting of social programs that benefit the majority, drive wages down further and gain an ever larger share of the national wealth.

  58. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 9:44 pm

    Jane and Mitch, I’ll be glad to address your post(s), but I believe it warrants a thorough explanation since you have obviously taken the time to compile a list of texts.

  59. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    Exodus 31:15
    Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    This does not justify murder. This is a penalty for crime (transgression of the law) by a government (God’s theocracy over Israel). Those of Israel who had been delivered from slavery and death in Eygpt willingly joined God’s theocracy. In God’s covenant(agreement) with Israel, they promised to keep his laws, and he promised to bless them. There was no coercion. The penalty willfully breaking the sabbath was death. In the old covenant, people suffered the penalty of their sins immediately. We no longer are in an earthly theocracy, but the penalty is still the same. Willful rebellion against God’s law will result in death, but it will come in the form of the second death (eternal) after the resurrection.

  60. Mitch
    March 14, 2011 at 9:52 pm

    Oh, thank you Ma and Pa. I see. Praise the Lord!

  61. Ma and Pa
    March 14, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    Deuteronomy 13:13-19
    [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; (v.13)
    Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you; (v.14)
    Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. (v.15)
    And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. (v.16)
    And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; (v.17)
    When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God. (v.18)

    This text does not justify murder. God explicitly gave this command. God is the author of life, and he can take that life if and when He so chooses. God is above law. These idolatrous nations God chose to completely destroy for their abominations. Such as offering their children as sacrifices to their gods, and the unbridled fornication and adultery with it’s corruption’s. We do not now live under a theocracy such as existed at this time. Under God’s new covenent which came as a result of God giving up His own Son to die for sinners, we are now under a dispensation of grace. In the old covenant (agreement) people died without mercy. For those who reject God’s mercy and grace, the penalty will be the same now under the new covenant, but the penalty will not be executed until the final judgment. Jesus made it plain that his kingdom is not now of this world. (Otherwise His servants would fight).

  62. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    “God” told them to murder women and children so that means it wasn’t murder. How can you have any sort of rational discussion with someone afflicted with circular logic? Do you think it can understand it’s reasoning is the same used by Islamic jihad terrorists?

  63. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    PJ, what a waste. It was an opportunity for you to post something besides a knee jerk response. Maybe that is all you are capable of ?

    Stick it, Obama could have vetoed it. Instead he encouraged it.

  64. High Finance
    March 14, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Does anybody else think we should fix Ma and Pa up on a blind date with the Prophet of Doom ?

  65. tra
    March 14, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    P.J.,

    The name of that strategy is “Starve the Beast.” If I remember correctly, the phrase was coined during (or around the time of) Newt Ginrich’s short-lived gig as Speaker of the House.

    The neo-cons and what we might now call proto-teapartiers had realized that though they would still need to pretend that they wanted to balance the budget, in fact what they really needed to do was to spend and tax-cut their way into huge deficits, ballooning the national debt, which would in turn provide the justification for a later round of massive cuts to social progams and other things they didn’t like.

    Overall, it’s a strategy that’s worked quite well for them, though they understandably don’t want to take credit for doing it on purpose.

  66. Plain Jane
    March 14, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    Exacty, Tra. Of course, first they had to build a media empire to brainwash the HiFi’s of the world into believing the nonsense of “trickle down,” to justify their starve the beast BS. It isn’t government they are shrinking small enough to drown, it’s the working classes and small business owners; you know – the people who still own a small percent of American wealth.

  67. March 14, 2011 at 10:25 pm

    So HiFi, how does “we had cause at first in Afghanistan, but we messed it up long term,” and “we never should have gone into Iraq, and we’ve done a poor job in the occupation” leave room for “bettering the lives of Americans”?

    Are you okay? Should we check in on you?

  68. March 15, 2011 at 7:22 am

    If the reasons had been valid then our people would be home by now.
    It sounds like Hi-Fi is against senseless war, so there is an opportunity to find common ground.
    I had a neighbor (recently passed away) who flew a confederate flag at his place. He was from New Orleans and he had served with MacArthur in Japan. Obviously there were many things we could never agree on. But there were some things. His distrust of the rich controlling the federal government matched mine. So we could find things that we were in agreement on. We also agreed on just about every “local”issue. All I’m saying is we can’t just keep focusing on the polarizing aspects of each issue. Otherwise it just means we love to argue. I don’t like to argue. While I don’t see much room for consensus with the Uber-Rich destroying the country; I do see the possibility of it within the local discussions.

  69. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 8:33 am

    Still don’t get it Jane? Think a little harder on the issue, it’s not circular at all. You belong to a society that kills individuals of all gender and age as punishment for crime, as well as decimating houses, crops and animals. Just look at the history of the last century. The latest being the bombing of the World Trade Center. You call it war, and justify it. Yet you charge God with being unjust.

    But God does not command any of his followers to murder others, he has stated that his kingdom is not now of this world. Yes, in the past before the dispensation of grace he executed judgment upon nations through his chosen and elect people Israel. But Israel failed and is no longer his chosen people, and God has stated that His kingdom is no longer of this world.

    Even though this is the fact. God is above the law. God is a merciful and benevolent God. He for the protection and preservation of his creatures will execute judgment upon nations and individuals. But he has explicitly forbid us to not murder, and he has explicitly stated under what circumstances a government is allowed to kill for punishment.

    In our country we don’t punish for religious laws, only civil, which is in harmony with the Son of God’s admonitions.

  70. Plain Jane
    March 15, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Ma & Pa, anyone can claim “god” told them to murder, that doesn’t mean there IS a god or that it speaks to anyone. The fact that you can’t recognize circular logic is undoubtedly because that’s the way your brain is wired.

    As an example:

    “How do you know there is a god?”

    “The bible says so.”

    “Why do you believe the bible?”

    “Because it is the word of God.”

    “But how do you know it is the word of god?”

    “Because the bible says so.”

  71. March 15, 2011 at 8:48 am

    Ma and Pa: if I agree to accept Jesus, will you fucking go away?

  72. Anonymous
    March 15, 2011 at 8:50 am

    Be nice to Jesus, Joel!

  73. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 8:58 am

    “How do you know there is a god?”

    Because of the creation and the work of salvation in my life.

    “Why do you believe the bible?”

    Based on the internal weight of evidence contained in the Bible. The prediction of the rise and fall of specific world empires with detailed descriptions and identifying marks that can not be controverted predicted well in advance of the occurances.

    “But how do you know it is the word of god?”

    Evidence, internal and external.

  74. Plain Jane
    March 15, 2011 at 9:15 am

    See, no point in trying to have any rational discussion with circular thinkers. The bible doesn’t mention evolution, that the earth rotates about the sun, or even that the earth is a sphere; but crazies can take any prophecy and apply it to anything to support their beliefs. I feel sorry for people with such stunted minds, but wish they would stop trying to turn their beliefs into laws to force everyone else to follow them.

  75. March 15, 2011 at 9:52 am

    “…no point in trying to have any rational discussion with circular thinkers.”

    Then please stop.

  76. Plain Jane
    March 15, 2011 at 10:04 am

    Since you said, “please,” Joel.

  77. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 10:23 am

    Dear Ma and Pa,

    Thank you for your explanation of Exodus 31:15.
    Perhaps you forgot about the other two?

    2 Samuel 6:6-7
    Isaiah 14:21

  78. fred33
    March 15, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Don’t forget, Gov. Brown has his cutback proposals too, so it’s not just the Republicans who are eying budget cuts. For one thing, he wants to put an end to Adult Day Care altogether. Old folks would end up in skilled nursing facilities and a lot of people would be out of work.

  79. Plain Jane
    March 15, 2011 at 10:46 am

    He explained it all, Mitch. If someone says god told them to do it, it isn’t wrong. This person suffers from the same mental aberration as Islamic jihadists.

  80. Richard
    March 15, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Brown is in a tough position with what he’s inherited. He is pushing to get extensions on current tax rates put to the citizens for a vote, and Republicans are trying to block even putting it to a vote.
    We must increase revenue. I hope they will start to look at ending tax breaks on investment property (slipped in under prop 13), as well as corporate give aways.

  81. High Finance
    March 15, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Brown IS in a tough position and so far I have been pleasantly surprised at his handling of the crisis.

    And “crisis” is not too strong of a word for what California is going through.

    Unfortunately, I fear the Democrats in the legislature will fight him tooth and nail in stopping any real budget cuts. They will keep their opposition under wraps until after the vote on the tax extensions.

  82. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 11:15 am

    Well, PJ, I’m just offering Ma and Pa an opportunity to explain those two cites in his/her/their own words.

    Not being able to understand the LORD, it is truly mysterious to me that he strikes down someone trying to keep his ark from tipping over. And I’m confused why the LORD thinks the sins of the fathers justify slaughtering the children.

    They are mysterious ways indeed, so mysterious that if I didn’t know they were the ways of the LORD, I’d be tempted to put the perp in prison or a mental hospital.

    2 Samuel 6:6-7

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled.

    The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.

    Isaiah 14:21

    Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

  83. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 11:20 am

    PJ,

    I just had a thought!

    What if the LORD is a fictional character thought up in primitive societies that still thought it was OK to slaughter all the men, women, children, and cattle of an opposing tribe?

    What if he was modeled after the most vicious, Khaddafi-like character of the time?

    That could explain a lot of the constant raging throughout the Old Testament, couldn’t it?

  84. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 11:24 am

    Wow! Just stay with me here a moment.

    I know it sounds outrageous, but maybe it could explain why the Old Testament seems to so attract people who are always looking for revenge against people unlike themselves. You know, the folks who always stand ready to say that natural disasters are really because their victims didn’t listen to the LORD? It’s almost as if people are projecting their own nasty natures onto the LORD, thinking that he’s doing what THEY would really like to do.

    Nah, never mind. It doesn’t say that in the Bible.

  85. March 15, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    According to the History Channel (propaganda-Lite) The guy died because the Ark contained “Extra-terrestrial” material. And only the priests had been inoculated.
    I must say I am much more in favor of religious discussions when they involve Quantum physics, Dark Matter and multiple dimensions.

  86. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    …..or even that the earth is a sphere….

    Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

  87. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    Mitch, if you defied orders of the highest authority of the United States Government in intruding into an unauthorized area or non-entry area, what do you think the consequences would be?

    Why do you think God would be any different?

  88. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Well if I happened to be bigger than the non-entry area (an ark carried by oxen), and I kept the non-entry area from falling, I’d hope to receive a thank you note, especially if the non-entry area was the house of God.

  89. Mitch
    March 15, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    And Ma? Pa?

    A circle is not a sphere. Just sayin’

  90. Plain Jane
    March 15, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    That’s right Mitch. A circle is a one dimensional, flat surface without corners, exactly what the earth looks like from its surface. Surely the force that created earth should know that it is a sphere and not a circle. Of course, it didn’t know about the “new world” either so maybe someone added that later and didn’t tell “god?”

  91. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 6:54 pm

    Mitch you are on to something here, with regard to Uzzah, and it’s deep.

    God does not need anyone to steady his ark which contains the law of God. Uzzah’s unbelief is an object lesson for all time. God certainly foresaw that man would try to tamper, change, and abrogate His law down through time. God’s law is holy, eternal, and unchangeable. It doesn’t need any human intervention. Not human hand to steady it.

  92. Ma and Pa
    March 15, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    Root Hebrew Word H2328 masculine noun Gesenius’s lexicon M. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro. 8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa 40:

    [There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.Proverbs 21:30

  93. March 15, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Ma and Pa reminds me of the bumper sticker that says, “Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you’re an asshole.”

  94. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    March 15, 2011 at 7:49 pm

    …..and Nostradamus said,
    ” “.

    JL

  95. High Finance
    March 16, 2011 at 8:31 am

    Earthquakes and tidal wives and nuclear meltdowns threatening to destroy Japan.

    Tsunamis destroying Crescent City’s harbor and sinking and destroying dozens of fishing boats.

    Huge thunder storms hitting Eureka. Lightening strikes starting fires and thunder so loud it sets off car alarms.

    All of this happened in the past week !!

    How do we know that maybe the Prophet of Doom isn’t right ? Maybe this IS the end of times ~~~~~ ?? !!

  96. Plain Jane
    March 16, 2011 at 8:43 am

    It probably is, HiFi. Aren’t all the nuts planning on waiting it out in Alaska? Time for you to get moving. You’ll fit in nicely.

  97. Mitch
    March 16, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Ma, Pa,

    I’ve got to give you credit, your reply about the ark is excellent. We disagree strongly, but still…

    In Judaism, there’s a large collected body of commentaries on the Torah, and commentaries on the commentaries, and so on. Sometimes religions can be of value for the wisdom offered in the commentaries, even if the Torah portion itself was a bit questionable. The problem is, there’s a lot of dross to be searched through to find the flecks of gold, and many of today’s religious conservatives toss out the gold and use the dross to justify their positions.

    Peace.

  98. Ma and Pa
    March 16, 2011 at 9:30 am

    According to Bible prophecy we have been in the time of the end since 1798. Derived from the study of Daniel 11. The longest prophetic reckoning of time ended in 1844. Since that time there have been no dates to tell us where we are in the last stream of time. Harold Camping(spelling?)of family radio is initiating a false alarm and false revival which will only end in disappointment and confirming unbelievers in their unbelief against the truth. Don’t fall for the false revivals and time setting. There are still many things that have to be fulfilled, but it can happen very rapidly.

    That said, we are living in the last days. Mercy is still extended to all. Don’t put off your decision to surrender yourself and family to God. He loves you and will keep you through all these trying times.

  99. Mitch
    March 16, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Well, Ma, Pa, we disagree about the reason but probably agree about the date the end times began. Your date is close enough to the industrial revolution that I’ll accept it.

  100. walt
    March 16, 2011 at 10:06 am

    So does that mean the guys who wrote the Bible. . .er, God. . .is or was a Luddite? She does move in mysterious ways. I thought the End of Days started when the Beatles broke up.

  101. Mitch
    March 16, 2011 at 10:48 am

    FWIW walt, I don’t consider myself a Luddite. I think technology is great — I just don’t believe those “in charge” have the maturity to use it properly.

    Show me a representative democracy that lets an informed population make decisions without allowing unlimited paid political advertising, and that bans politicians and regulators from ever benefiting from any industry they’ve whored to, and I’ll happily accept any technology anyone offers.

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