Home > Richardson Grove > Richardson Grove puppet show

Richardson Grove puppet show

Original here.

  1. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    don’t be a satiated hippy……what just happened…..

  2. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    That is offensive. I am so sick of people repeating this BS. If a business used knowingly false information to promote their product you would be calling for their head. Why do environmental groups get to say whatever they want and no one calls them on their lies.

  3. Mark Sailors
    April 18, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Anyone want pictures of the protest…..

  4. lurch
    April 18, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    and people wonder why the Richardson Grove campaign gets mocked and vilified.

    what a bunch of idiots.

  5. April 18, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    Hey 2:42 the Republicans do it ALL the time. Just listen to Boehner spout crap and you’ll know what I mean. You don’t suppose the Richardson’s Grove protesters are REPUBLICANS, do you? Gasp!!!!!

  6. Mark Sailors
    April 18, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    I am sorry, but wasn’t it FOX news that went to court for the right to LIE in its news broadcast?

  7. woodsworker
    April 18, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    It is true that the puppeteers don’t have a solid grasp on the facts which is sad because of the many reasons why this project should not go through. The trees that will be cut down are little trees, mostly out of the park. What they will do is cut back roots on ancient redwoods and cover the cut roots with a permeable cement covering that will leach lime onto the cut roots. The project will do much damage in many other ways and is unnecessary. All that needs to be done is to cut the speed limit to 20 miles/hour on that 1 mile stretch and have cameras rigged to take pictures of speeders who will then have very costly tickets. Further– doing what could greatly damage some of the few remaining old growth redwoods so big trucks can come through is ridiculous at a time when oil resources are disappearing at an awesome rate. Short sea shipping would work here, keep the trucks out. Those trucks will be very costly to Humboldt roads because they are allowed to leave the highway for pick-ups, deliveries and services.

  8. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    A-Nony-Mouse,

    So because others lie it is OK to do it too. Hold everyone to the same standard so there can be real debate.

    There is not a single qualified expert that has looked at the details of this project who believes the trees are in any danger.

  9. April 18, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    and people wonder why the Richardson Grove campaign gets mocked and vilified.

    It took effort to post the video without comment but sometimes it’s best to let readers (and watchers) be the judge.

  10. skippy
    April 18, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    The bongo drums, free food, colorful signs, hi-jinks, shenanigans, and the ongoing protesting puppet show put on by the Grovies continued in full force at Caltrans in Eureka today:

    “Opponents of the California Department of Transportation’s Richardson Grove Improvement Project staged a second rally Monday at Caltrans’ District 1 office on Wabash in Eureka. Colorful signs, chants of “One demand: Cancel the plan!,” and personal, impassioned, megaphone-aided pleas from protesters directed at local law enforcement and office occupants were plentiful.”

    Only this time, the lobby was closed and guarded by two CHP officers preventing the 60-some protesters from entering and potentially locking down into their metal sleeves– as some had done a few months ago. Gates to the Caltrans parking area were closed and locked– with the exception of a single gate manned by employees

    One uniformed gentleman remained on the roof filming the peaceful participants. EPD officers stood on the sidewalk nearby watching the crowd on this unusually warm and sunny day. Former reporter David Silverbrand and freelance film provocateur Nicholas Bravo meandered throughout the satiated crowd.

    Despite these precautions and the overall civility of the crowd, one daring middle-aged and not-in-the-best-shape gal scampered nimbly up a quickly erected ladder like a cheeky monkey onto the awning roof with her knapsack and into the waiting hands of officers. Laughing to the cheers of the crowd below, she was dragged through an open window to her waiting fate, not to be seen again.

    More of the story and pictures by
    NCJ’s Andrew Goff are here.

  11. Oldphart
    April 18, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    Gotta just love the reasoning that the remaining trees will be damaged. No science, just hyperbole. Go look at the Drive-Thru Tree – been there for decades with cars driving directly over the roots and a big freaking hole cut in the middle of the base of the tree. Damn tree is still alive. Go figure.
    How many of the protesters are local? How long have the locals lived here? When in tgrouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

  12. Mitch
    April 18, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    These puppets must be condemned!

    They are clearly bad puppets, foolish puppets, yes, even WRONG puppets.

    Bad puppets! Naughty puppets! Unusually-colored puppets!

  13. Mitch
    April 18, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    Seven-o-heaven puppets?

  14. Decline To State
    April 18, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    Wow! That was stupid.

  15. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    “and people wonder why the Richardson Grove campaign gets mocked and vilified.”

    You mock and vilify such things in real life because of stupid puppet shows on the internet? What an idiot!

    “There is not a single qualified expert that has looked at the details of this project who believes the trees are in any danger.”

    Damn all those other experts! They must not be qualified!

    Besides all this nonsense, these pro-freeway nuts must not fully realize they’re saying they actually want a bigger freeway through a one-of-a-kind global landmark right in our backyard. WTF? Great thinking, MORANZ! Move to where there’s already more freeway. Please.

  16. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 6:26 pm

    Random Guy,

    What other experts? Nothing has been published by anyone with any substantial scientific basis suggesting that the actual methods being proposed place these trees in danger. There is lots of unscientific conjecture, opinion and hyperbole from non experts and the completely uninformed.

    Do us a favor and stop exaggerating the scope of this project, the damage it will do and the growth it will cause. You will not win this fight with lies, but you will loose your credibility.

  17. Toohey
    April 18, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    The anti-Richardson Grove Project campaign is one measure emotional reaction, one measure hyperbole, and one measure self-serving fundraising taking advantage of the first two.

    Has anyone really listened to these guys and their arguments? I am almost tempted to be against the project if it would just get them to stop talking.

  18. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Self serving is right. EPIC needs to disclose how much money they have raised.

  19. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    The trolls come out at night…the trolls come out at night…lookin’ for a fight…the trolls come out at night…

  20. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    That’s what I thought Random Guy, nothing but wind.

  21. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    The attitude of many yahoos that live in this beautiful county is often hard to stomach. They do not value their assets-open space-redwoods-historic architecture-a state park welcoming all that drive 101. I can get an idea of your life sitting in your ugly house with your common tastes just salivating over the thought of more Chinese crap you can buy if the road is widened. You know nothing of the life in the canopy of a forest. You brainless bumpkins. Go live in Richmond or someplace that has lost it’s open space and beauty.

  22. Osprey
    April 18, 2011 at 7:47 pm

    really?……sigh. c’mon people. let’s fight growth with a strong general plan. This is getting a bit pathetic.

    we continue to lose credibility with this kind of schtuff….

  23. Osprey
    April 18, 2011 at 7:48 pm

    not to mention, they are not speaking truths. bigger sigh…..gives a sour taste to real political theatre.

  24. Bolithio
    April 18, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    EPIC needs to disclose how much money they have raised.

    Im curious about that too. The campaign has been going on for a long time now. Where is that money spent?

    You know nothing of the life in the canopy of a forest. You brainless bumpkins.

    Right. Again, where is any credible evidence that the road re-alignment will impact the park?

    Why does EPIC still claim OG will be logged?

    Why is the overall campaign tactic to LIE about what is actually proposed?

    There is validity to some of the other arguments against this project. Hint: its not about the trees.

  25. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    To the contrary. Us “yahoos” choose to live here for exactly the wonders you describe. We are thrilled that the issues at Richardson Grove can be fixed without threatening any of that. What you clearly don’t understand is that the project is needed to get stuff out, not in.

    If this project was the last obstacle keeping the teeming hordes in LA and their loads of Chinese crap out of Humboldt County I would be right beside you. It is not. If it were, Ukiah and Wilits would be bursting at the seams. They are not.

  26. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    Undeniable fact: the overwhelming majority of people, local and out of the area, DO NOT support this project. Set up a penny poll anywhere, anytime, see for yourself. That’s the main reason stuff like this isn’t put to an actual vote.

    Even nutjobs like the few above should admit that an project like this, that’s not only met with resistance, but blatant rage, and not just by a few people, but an outspoken LOT of people, should be put to a vote. If the trolls above deny that, then they REALLY should pack up and move as far away from Humboldt as possible. Their kind is not welcome here.

  27. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    Bolithio, “the overall campaign tactic”? You got beef with EPIC. Buy a tissue and drop them an email. The argument against the project is very very simple: don’t cut a bigger freeway through part of the last remaining old growth forests on the entire planet. It’s about as stupid as it gets.

  28. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    “Fact” denied Random Guy. This is one of the most universally accepted projects I have ever seen both among the elected and the electorate. Yes, if you ask someone if they support cutting down all the trees in Richardson Grove to widen the highway to 4 lanes like the opposition does, they are generally opposed. Show them the actual plan and they shrug and wonder what all the noise is about.

  29. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    The beef with EPIC is that when you make money by lying it is called FRAUD. You go to jail for it.

  30. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Agreed. This project will not be a problem for the redwoods but will help countless truckers get through there. It is just not worth getting into a lather about. It is widely accepted. If you have lived around redwoods you can see how hardy they are- you kiddin’ me?

  31. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Nope! Way more people are opposed to the project. Sorry, you’re all talk. And show me a trucker that says he needs this project to safely get through that grove and I’ll show you a laughing stock of a trucker.

    Reminder, it’s about state and federal mandates, nothing more. Non-local regulation around projected polulation increase. That’s it. You wanna talk about ridiculous, look at how violently in favor of this “insignificant” thing you whack jobs are.

  32. Random Guy
    April 18, 2011 at 8:45 pm

    “The beef with EPIC is that when you make money by lying it is called FRAUD. You go to jail for it.”

    Great. So take epic out of the equation. Go protest epic. That only leaves everybody else, who don’t want to compromise anymore old growth forest whatsoever. Let alone humboldt locals talking about humboldt old growth.

    If it’s no big deal like you say, then it’s even less of a big deal to drop it. Put that money into something people want, like caltrans worker’s pockets.

  33. Farmer
    April 18, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    Bolithio,

    I challenge you to show where Epic is claiming that Old-growth will be logged.

    You know that the burden of proof that there will be no significant harm is on the plan proposer, hence the legal need for them to create an environmental impact report. Caltrans didn’t even do that until after Epic got on their case about it. Caltrans first tried to play it off with a negative declaration of harm- meaning it wasn’t even worth looking for potential evironental harm.

    What’s considered significant depends on who you ask.

    Caltrans says the park will be impacted, they jut don’t think it’s significant. Here’s the document on their website.

    This following statement is from said document, page 147 (164 on the pdf)-

    3.2 DISCUSSION OF SIGNIFICANCE OF IMPACTS

    3.2.1. Less than Significant Effects of the Proposed Project
    Less than significant effects of the proposed project include impacts to old growth redwood trees, endangered species, aesthetics, cultural resources, impacts to the community and
    Richardson Grove State Park.

  34. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    Less than significant definitely doesn’t mean the trees will die. If I bump into you on the sidewalk that is a less than significant impact. If I injure you it is significant. Not that hard to figure out.

    I have an EPIC brochure that describes the project as a widening including tree removal and on the next page asks for money. While technically correct, the words are used in a way to cause the reader to misunderstand the scope of the project. It may be legal, but is is certainly unethical.

  35. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 9:23 pm

    It’s funny how people get all conspiratorial when they don’t even have a clue as to how things work. EPIC is a nonprofit that is required to file a 990 with the IRS, which is public information. Hell, their annual report complete with financial numbers is on their website. Go check and see how many millions of dollars EPIC is making.
    http://www.wildcalifornia.org/about-us/public-documents/attachment/annual-report-2009/

  36. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    By the way. The neg dec was based on the same studies that are in the EIR nothing changed. The irony is that under the neg dec, there could be no impacts. An EIR actually allows the project to have significant impacts with disclosure it just takes longer.

  37. Anonymous
    April 18, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    If EPIC was making millions they wouldn’t have to resort to this BS to keep the lights on. They are desperate not greedy.

  38. Mr. Nice
    April 19, 2011 at 7:24 am

    Y’all really need to take this beef up with the department of transportation and all the truckers unions’ political action groups who lobbied for all this road safety bullshit in the 80s.

    Nobody who supports the project really gives a fuck about the road or L.A. people like they would really come to tweak town and start using up all y’all’s meth or some shit. All folks want is more jobs. You say anything that would provide more jobs and folks will be like hell yea blow up the moon, shit, seems like a good plan.

  39. Mark Sailors
    April 19, 2011 at 7:48 am

    As shitty as it is Random Guy has it right. The federal government is mandating that staa trucks be able to get through on 101. The plan is to make 101 a real highway. This section of the west coast is the only section that is not getting the new high-speed rail. They need a way to move cargo, and as shitty as THIS is, the bay will one day be a deep-water port. Eureka and Arcata will be the size of “real” cities and the lifestyle we all live will be 100% different. That is why it is important to look at the big picture, not just individual projects. Make the connections, connect the dots and see the REALITY of the complete picture.

  40. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    April 19, 2011 at 8:02 am

    woodsworker says:
    April 18, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    It is true that the puppeteers don’t have a solid grasp on the facts which is sad because of the many reasons why this project should not go through. The trees that will be cut down are little trees, mostly out of the park. What they will do is cut back roots on ancient redwoods and cover the cut roots with a permeable cement covering that will leach lime onto the cut roots. The project will do much damage in many other ways and is unnecessary. All that needs to be done is to cut the speed limit to 20 miles/hour on that 1 mile stretch and have cameras rigged to take pictures of speeders who will then have very costly tickets. Further– doing what could greatly damage some of the few remaining old growth redwoods so big trucks can come through is ridiculous at a time when oil resources are disappearing at an awesome rate. Short sea shipping would work here, keep the trucks out. Those trucks will be very costly to Humboldt roads because they are allowed to leave the highway for pick-ups, deliveries and services.

    Response: Yet, even though enforcement would work and work well, enforcement IS NOT WHAT POLITICAL LEADERS and CAL-TRANS want. Nope, it is like the General Plan Update process – use all those years of non-enforcement as a ruse to come back later and claim new laws and regulations are necessary – this is how to build a powerful government.

    So, power is more important than money (fines, tickets) because power leads to more power to be able to unjustifiably AT A LATER DATE take more money in fines, fees, tickets, etc… while also KNOWING THAT at a later future date, most everything known to mankind may very well be “locked-up” into the controlling framework of government.

    Is it true the EPD officer went into jail AFTER a RG protestor, but then got outta jail before the RG protestor which, as of yesterday, was still rumored to be in jail?

    Governtment Code is a FRAUD folks. Those who vote for representatives THAT DON’T CHANGE (or attempt to change) THIS REALITY ARE merely political and social minions and stool pigeons serving that which is too big to fail.

    Jeffrey Lytle
    McKinleyville – 5th District

  41. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    April 19, 2011 at 8:13 am

    Mr. Nice has it right, again. People only care about themself in most instances. It does not matter about stuff when jobs are wanted. Problem is trust – more folks need to trust their own abilities as entrepneurs. Obviously, some people will only want to work for someone else. Yet, in both situations, where is there any job guarantees? There are no JOB GUARANTEES. If quality of life is dependent upon jobs, then should not people look at over-population taking away jobs while also severely impacting the natural environment. It is not so much the fact that mankind impacts or pollutes, bit it is that this human trait is a known factor in evolution and still the bunny rabbit reproduction affect is in play during an age where medicine and health are already allowing people to live longer. The natural environment’s ability to cull-out humans and control population has been altered by the advancements and innovations of mankind……and still people are making babies as if the young will die before the age of 12. Lest not forget more single, irresponsible parents exist today too.

    Back during the Civil War, the birth rate declined because all of the male studs were off at war while the ugly ducklings stayed home – women did not fornicate (spelling???) with the ugly ducklings as the birth rate analysts have indicated. So, one would think war is good for population controls, but really, not in today’s world since it just allows a reserve to come in and fill the void. So, is disease the population control pill? We will soon find out.

    JL

  42. skippy
    April 19, 2011 at 8:48 am

    Times-Standard reporter Matt Drange has been covering the Grovie events while Emily Gimeno of San Leandro earned her 15 minutes of fame and a court date being booked into the Humboldt County Correctional Facility on 3 misdemeanor violations
    in today’s article.

    The Richardson Grove Project is seeing permit and bid timing causing minor delays in construction with the North Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board:
    “Permit Hangup Could Push Back Construction to Late Summer.”

  43. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 10:21 am

    There is NO central voice guiding opposition to the Richardson Grove project except COMMON SENSE.

    People are opposed to this insanely stupid move all over the world, from all walks of life. Not just EPIC, not just “grovies”, not just “hippies”, not just puppeteers…BUT EVERYBODY. Ancient redwood forests belong to everybody, and everybody recognized their significance in the grand scheme of things, all over the world.

    They are to be preserved and protected, unconditionally. At this point in the future’s history, anything less is insane. PERIOD.

  44. RAMDX
    April 19, 2011 at 10:43 am

    I was at the Caltrans rally yesterday. At one point I counted about 115 protesters. That was close to 12:30 pm.

    This protest was more festival than protest. The food was good, the dope was strong (thanks, farmers from the hills!), the drumming was fun but the crowd seemed unfocused and unmotivated.

    The big moment should have been during the presentation of the rock (with Cancel the Plan written on it) to Caltrans. It sorta was, since that’s when the ladder was hoisted and the woman scampered up onto the roof. However, this crowd was not fired up (except for the joints) and most people stood close to the corner of Wabash and Union, away from the entrance. Perhaps they were thinking about the warrant out for the arrest of the guy who hurled coffee last time.

    Most people were unaware of the cops later jumping through the windows to the roof to apprehend the woman.

    It was clear that strong leadership was missing. We needed someone to take the bullhorn and really take charge. Chants should have been started up and maintained. People should have been urged to walk around picket line style. Everyone needed to be rounded up into a supporting huddle close to the building entrance during the rock presentation. The whole event needed more edge and focus.

    There can be both common sense and a central voice.

    As it was, the day was a good day in the sun with like-minded people out expressing their concerns over this project. I’m glad I went.

  45. Thirdeye
    April 19, 2011 at 10:54 am

    EPIC has jumped the shark. That’s a good thing.

  46. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 11:13 am

    Beats work huh?

  47. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 11:16 am

    There’s no wrong way to protest…the line in the sand has been drawn for us by a tiny minority with all the money. Additionally, this project is misappropriation of tax money. It’s spitting in everybody’s face by forcing it down our throats despite overwhelming outcry from every corner of everywhere that hears about it.

  48. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 11:18 am

    Great point, 11:13. Imagine if everybody could get the day off AND funds actually existed to bring people together for this.

  49. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 11:20 am

    This has been made into a way bigger thing than it is. It isn’t significant to anything, in reality, but the fringe group is going ballistic over it.

  50. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 11:25 am

    “It isn’t significant to anything”

    Move away from humboldt, 11:20. Far away.

  51. RAMDX
    April 19, 2011 at 11:35 am

    “Beats work huh?”

    I’m retired, anonymous 11:13. I saw many other seniors there too. The protest would have been even bigger if many people opposed to this poison project didn’t need to work yesterday.

    You’re right, Random Guy. There’s no wrong way to protest. However, some ways are more effective than others. Let’s try them all.

  52. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    “As shitty as it is Random Guy has it right. The federal government is mandating that staa trucks be able to get through on 101. The plan is to make 101 a real highway. This section of the west coast is the only section that is not getting the new high-speed rail. They need a way to move cargo, and as shitty as THIS is, the bay will one day be a deep-water port. Eureka and Arcata will be the size of “real” cities and the lifestyle we all live will be 100% different. That is why it is important to look at the big picture, not just individual projects. Make the connections, connect the dots and see the REALITY of the complete picture.”

    It wasn’t that long ago that Humboldt Bay was a very busy deep water port, there was an active rail line and STAA was not an issue. Timber was booming then and living wage jobs were abundant. Yet none of the dire predictions about Eureka and Arcata becoming big cities came to pass.

    We live in one of the most uninhabited and isolated places in the continental US. It is cold, rainy and foggy here and most people are not attracted to this climate. Yes, some of us love it and can’t understand why others don’t. But the fact is that most people who come here don’t stay.

  53. skippy
    April 19, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Yours truly isn’t always the sharpest tool in the shed and may have missed something. Perhaps someone could kindly explain? Jeff Musgrave posted his comment on the LCO site yesterday:

    ” Hank, if you want dirt on Arkley, you should check out the connection between Rob and the Richardson Grove project. I don’t expect you of all people to change your stance on the project but you may find out something interesting…”

    What would that interesting connection be? Does this puppet-master plot thicken… or simply fall apart under its own weight? Without any supporting details, this vague comment will have to be relegated to the ‘pending’ pile of unreliable puppetry and chalked up to more marionette hearsay until we hear more.

  54. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    “Yet none of the dire predictions about Eureka and Arcata becoming big cities came to pass.”

    It’s important to keep in mind that’s an argument of it’s own…and more than a litte debatable at that. Don’t be distracted…

    Making further exceptions against old growth forests, regardless of the degree of significance one chooses to believe the exceptions are, is the primary cause of outcry regarding this project.

    I completely agree with your 11:35, Ram. It’s not even debatable…if people could afford to come from all over, even just to allow their presence to be their protest, the crowd would be enourmous and growing every day.

  55. Steak n Eggs
    April 19, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    The blogging and protesting has gotten you nowhere. More protests won’t do much good if you cannot refute Caltran’s conclusions with some credible science. At this stage in the game, the process is not opinion driven.

    But what the hell…probably won’t hurt to scream a little louder and crank up the hyperbole a couple notches. I mean jeez, it really is one of the last remaining groves of old growth on the planet! LOL.

  56. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    …people would not, do not and are not coming from anywhere, let alone on their own accord, to say they want to see this project come to fruition.

  57. taxed
    April 19, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Could be that this is part of the plan to put the road thru the Eureka Marsh-extension of Waterfront Drive? The reason many leave is that they are sick of the welfare trash and homeless not that the cold weather. I do not want my taxes wasted screwing up a State Park. Wake up all you stupid and vacuous fools. The paving of this wonderful Scenic Redwood Highway will not bring success to Humboldt. It will only succeed in ruining yet another wild treasure in the state of California. Why would you want to squander this treasure in your very own county.

  58. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Well said, taxed.

    Real mom n’ pop businesses continue to disappear, despite (thanks to) all the promises of prosperity made by nationalist sponsers and the wealthiest minority within any localized region who profit from their delivery.

    Bottom line, any support for this project is idiocy any way you look at it.

  59. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Why aren’t the old growth forests listed in the Endangered Species Act. Seems that only 2% should make this a reasonable candidate. I don’t want my tax $ thrown away on this unneeded project.

  60. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Has anyone ever been able to stop Cal Trans from ruining open space and beautiful places? Nothing worse than a bully with government Dollars to spend.

  61. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    11:25 There are redwoods everywhere in the area in that project and none of the big ones are going to be cut, and none of the big ones are going to be harmed. They are amazingly to adapt to man’s inventions, like roads that surround them. This is a big to-do about nothing and your time and trouble should be spent on the big picture of saving our redwoods as a species, not about this specific and unimportant project. This kind of protest just takes the credibility away from helping the “big picture”. Also, those types who act like idiots (like the one who threw coffee at the cops) ruin it for everyone who wants to protect our lovely redwoods.

  62. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Less forest ruins everything for everyone, 1:02. Much ado about nothing, you say. Indifference is one thing…but do you actually support the project? There’s a world of difference.

  63. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 2:40 pm

    Taxed,

    The park is already paved. 90 % of the roots you are so desperately afraid of paving over are already paved over. Look at the plans. You are right about the welfare population. That is the only growth you allow. So now that we know you hate rich people and poor people, how do you feel about everyone else?

  64. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    Random, I do support it, after reading the specs on it. I don’t think it is a significant, not many trees are impacted and no large redwoods will be. I have been on a bad turn in those spots trying to share with big trucks too many times and I think the large safety improvement is more than enough reason to cut some small trees. No large ones will be cut! I think the big hoopla on this is just making people more jaded against those who try to save trees. We need to pick our battle and stop with this kind of thing that isn’t important.

  65. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    ” We need to pick our battle and stop with this kind of thing that isn’t important.”

    “we”? You certainly don’t speak for me, or people everywhere who know this is very important. All projects should forever accomodate their agenda regarding sections of forest like that, never the other way around. It’s common sense. It’s for everybody and their children’s children, generations to come. Way too much has been lost already.

    We shouldn’t be remembered for even more compromise.

  66. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    2:40, you’re on an unrelated tangent, arguing for urbanized growth nonetheless. Please, pack up and leave if you didn’t love Humboldt yesterday and still love it today. Please move to where the growth you admire has already been established. If it involved projects like this, it’s not like Humboldt County is or has ever been. That much you cannot deny.

  67. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    You might lose larger battles for not seeing the forest for the trees. I believe this project is so small that those who fight it will be sorry they didn’t look toward those projects that will make an impact on our forests. This one will not. Read the specs.

  68. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    …whereas you are literally supporting cutting down trees in the forest. An old growth grove, nonetheless. If the project is so small, put your money where your own mouth is and support something bigger yourself. Like changing the practices that lead to this kind of uproar every time.

  69. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    They aren’t cutting down old growth redwoods.

  70. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Your mind is made up, isn’t it? So is mine. Future generations will thank you for your stance on this matter, as everybody today does those who came before you regarding this same issue…everywhere, all over the world.

  71. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Quote from:

    http://www.northcoastprosperity.com/business-news

    Because of the sensitivity of the environment around Richardson Grove State Park, Caltrans designed the $5 million project to accommodate the STAA trucks and improve safety along the corridor, but leave the smallest possible footprint on the environment. In December Caltrans released a draft Environmental Impact Report (EIR) detailing how the project would be executed, what trees would be removed and what harm minimization measures would be utilized. In every category ranging from scenic aesthetics and air quality to biologic and geologic resources, the CEQA (California Environmental Quality Act) report determined that the Caltrans Richardson Grove project was expected to have either less than significant impact, or no impact to the environment.

    To facilitate the cut slopes, Caltrans anticipates there will be approximately 89 trees removed along the corridor. The majority of those trees (49) are tan oak
    and Douglas Fir (28) and seven trees slated for removal are small redwoods that range in size between 4 and 16 inches in diameter. None of those trees slated for removal meet the California Department of Parks and Recreation definition of large tree that says a tree is large if it is 36 inches in diameter at breast height. Caltrans officials have stated repeatedly that no old growth trees of any species are to be removed for the sake of this alignment project.

  72. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    The link game…

    $5 million is the maximum cost Caltrans initially pitched, then immediately raised it to $7-10 million after more handshakes, and now it’s at over ten million and climbing. Skyrocketing cost of gas will make it even more.

    Money much better spent on something else, wouldn’t you agree? Like compensating Caltrans workers who had their pay and benefits cut over the last few years, while management prospered?

    …and what’s the issue regarding this project to begin with? The severity of the compromise being forced, or the forced compromise altogether?

  73. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    after reading which businesses will benefit and the low environmental effects, my opinion is that it is an important project. yes, we will have to just disagree.

  74. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    I’ve made several points in my several posts above that you haven’t addressed, anon. Care to? As you say, it’s important. School me.

  75. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    Anon(s), if addressing my points above is too difficult, perhaps you could provide a list of local businesses that actually support this project? That should be easy, especially as well read as some of you claim to be?

  76. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 8:18 pm

    Caltrans should do something of benefit such as removing all the invasive Pampas Grass. Oh yeah, and the trash that is all smashed up against there ugly new highway medians that and trap wildlife on the 101.

  77. Systematic Gal
    April 19, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Random Guy give it a rest, 20 comments out of 75 or so. Your not so random. Maybe a little obsessed with it? Go outside and enjoy the evening air. I did and it was good.

  78. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    Anybody humoring the ridiculous Darth EPIC argument should really take a look at Caltrans with the same discretion. They’re the only flipside organization to that debate, with infinitely more money. Food for the link junkie’s thought:

    http://www.tamcmonterey.org/programs/hwyproj/pdf/TAMC-CAG_ProjectDevelopmentProcess.pdf

    Trolls who really care need only drop their bias to start checking points where Caltrans failed their own requirements, starting with community involvement. And ask yourself, where did THIS project idea originate? Hint: not in Humboldt at all. Where do almost all of their project ideas originate?

    Anybody study marketing? Plug in your nomenclature know-how…Beginning on page 19, challenges include satisfying need and purpose, and obtaining consensus…pretty scary, especially considering this one! Where is it that they’ve done either of those regarding Richardson Grove? They don’t mean satisfying our needs or purposes, or obtaining our consent. The locals they shake hands with don’t advertise their involvement.

    Final pages are streamlining…including “reduce reworking project decisions by more involvement and outreach at critical times”. Business majors know this to mean: when things start to get ugly, stick to the original plan and advertise more. The people are definitely reaching out, yet haven’t been involved at all. Allowing the whole community to do so would mean scrapping this project altogether. Don’t get me started on their species chart, either.

    A must read, especially if you’re a flag waver:

    http://www.gallen.com/releases/JusttheFacts-FINAL.pdf

  79. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    I appreciate that, Gal…and I’m doing this entirely of my own initiative, alone and without pay! If anything good comes of it, that’s what it’s about. It’s said that blogs utilize posters as unpaid freelancers. I’m a willing patsy in that sense…but only in this case.

    Better not to think you’re empathizing with anonymous posters on blogs, either. I know where I am…about to peel my eyes off the screen with a spatula right now…fuuuuug!

  80. RAMDX
    April 19, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    The puppet video is fun and makes a simple point: even stupid hand puppets can understand some basic reasons for opposing this poison project.

    Here’s another video about the road widening project:

  81. RAMDX
    April 19, 2011 at 9:31 pm

    let me try again:

  82. Random Guy
    April 19, 2011 at 9:37 pm

    …my final word for the evening…part of my doing this is to prove there’s absolutely no “obsessive” individuals in favor of this project whatsoever. Whera people are going so far as to chain themselves to these trees in opposition of it…whereas nobody on the “other side” is even willing to follow discussion through to the obvious end: this is an overwhelmingly unpopular project with an overwhelming amount of arguments against it from an overwhelming number of people…it should be shot down immediately.

    good night!

  83. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    The cost of the project itself hasn’t changed. The upgraded environmental document added cost, then Caltrans agreed to buy fancy new trashcans for the park as “mitigation,” then they agreed to a Marbled Murlet survey even though no one thinks they are there. Then there is the cost of litigation (lawyers ain’t cheap you know.) And finally, because it is widely expected that there will be civil disobedience etc. bids are expected to be higher and there will be additional cost associated with security. So there you have an additional $3-5 million with nothing to show for it except some shiny new trashcans. Thanks EPIC.

  84. Anonymous
    April 19, 2011 at 10:13 pm

    You are blaming EPIC for the increase in cost? Ha! The standard procedure is to talk a small amount of $ and then build and watch it spiral out of control, by many millions. Cal trans hoped it would just be another taxpayer project that would fly under the wire. Good Idea to keep the workers employed by removing invasive species of plants and not destroying the native ones.

  85. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 7:19 am

    So you think all of the extra work they caused didn’t cost anything? EIR’s are very expensive to produce even when they say NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT.

  86. Mark Sailors
    April 20, 2011 at 7:26 am

    Anonymous, April 19, 2011 at 12:06 pm,

    When Arcata/Eureka look like Baltimore or Portland remember that you did not believe the “dire predictions.”

  87. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 7:40 am

    Anonymous 10:03,

    Don’t you mean to say “thanks, rule of law?”

    EPIC has no ability to impose additional costs on CalTrans. EPIC just has the ability to argue to the courts that CalTrans has not met its responsibilities. If the courts disagree, nobody ends up paying for bird surveys or shiny trash cans.

    Or do you think, 10:03, that citizens should not have recourse to the courts unless they agree with you?

  88. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 7:57 am

    It is a great example of how inefficient the current regulatory system is. We get very little for what we spend. Just meaningless paper and ill will.

    The sad thing is that if a project like this, where the sponsor goes the extra mile to make sure impacts are minimal, gets thrown into the grinder, other developers will be more aggressive with their plans. If they are going to fight anyway there is no point in minimizing a project at the outset. If you beat your kid regardless of weather they are good or bad, eventually they won’t see the point in trying to be good. EPIC had a chance at the outset of this project to take a positive and constructive role, but they can only raise money by fighting, no one will send checks for them to work with Caltrans.

  89. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 8:18 am

    7:57,

    Democracy is inherently inefficient. My own suspicion is that the cost of democracy goes up as average citizen’s trust goes down, which is in turn a result of people gaming the system towards their own selfish ends.

    When the cost of policing a system’s rules begins to run up against the potential gains from implementing a system, you’ve got to begin to wonder what’s gone wrong with the system. I don’t know if we’re there yet, but I don’t think anyone would argue that we’re on the road there.

    If Americans could trust that government and business would *usually* do the thing that was best for all, there wouldn’t need to be lawsuits before someone moves an inch.

    We’ve seen over and over that we can’t give government or business that trust: Fukushima, the Gulf, the banksters, a tax system that audits the poor more than the wealthy… the list goes on and on, and that’s why the greediest are now trying to take over the courts.

    Stevens’ dissent in Bush v Gore: “Time will one day heal the wound to that confidence that will be inflicted by today’s decision. One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law.”

  90. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Mitch,

    You said a mouthful. The irony is that the vast majority of the people in government, in business and in life are decent and well meaning. Most of the mistakes we make are not malicious but rather rooted in a strong belief in something that turns out not to be true or simply the result of chance.

    Fukashima, the gulf oil spill and the financial crisis all fit this model. Big mistakes are made when honest people are wrong en masse. This idea is much less satisfying than placing blame though. Thus we repeat the cycle of fixing the mistake we made last time only to step headlong into the next one. Eventually becoming paralyzed by fear, which creates its own set of problems.

  91. neomoderate
    April 20, 2011 at 9:17 am

    So, are you all saying that the only thing keeping us from looking like Portland is the fact that STAA trucks can’t get here? Really?

    What keeps us from looking like Portland is geographic isolation. There is, thankfully, no cure for that. There is nowhere to commute to. We are not in a location to be a hub for anything. We will remain geographically isolated. We will remain small. But our small businesses will be able to compete just a little better.

  92. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 9:36 am

    8:46,

    I agree that the vast majority of those in government and business are honest and well-meaning. But I think honest and well-meaning people end up co-opted, given the rules of a system that allows, for example, BP, GE, and GS to make make-or-break campaign contributions. Unless you’re way beyond merely honest and well-meaning, you learn to bend with the system to avoid having it break you. The higher you get, the more you have at risk.

    Beyond that, when people watch the less-honest and less-well-meaning prosper, as I strongly believe is the case with the banksters, it erodes remaining trust, which leaves people feeling like patsies for following the rules. It’s a vicious spiral downwards.

    The photograph at this link sums it up well, I think:

    http://monkeymindonline.blogspot.com/2010/08/brief-life-of-roshi-robert-aitken.html .

  93. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 9:39 am

    8:46,

    I need to add, though, that I don’t believe the financial crisis was a matter of chance. I don’t believe that any more than I believe that, when you pile sand into a sandhill, the eventual avalanche is “just a matter of chance.”

    And I don’t believe the majority of people in the financial industry are honest and well-meaning. I think a very substantial percentage are greedy, selfish crooks. They happen to have found ways to operate within the law; that doesn’t stop them from being what I would consider crooks.

  94. Plain Jane
    April 20, 2011 at 10:00 am

    Exactly, Mitch! If bank robbers had the control of congress that banksters do, bank robbery would be legal.

  95. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 11:19 am

    The financial crisis was not a matter of chance, however chance played a significant part, or should I say misunderstanding of chance. The financial crisis was fueled not by crooks (though many of them jumped in with both feet) but by an unwavering belief that the chances of real estate prices falling was very small. Borrowers believed it which led them to overburden themselves with debt, something they would never have done otherwise. Lenders believed it, that is why they thought that even poorly documented mortgages were a safe bet. This led to a perfect storm of excess demand on both sides of the equation. This, when coupled with low interest rates and a non functioning regulatory structure blew up into what we experienced.

    While it is true bankers wield immense influence in Washington, we must not forget that no one in Washington wanted to be the one to pull away the punch bowl and be criticized for causing the recession.

    Even with the regulatory failures this whole mess could have been avoided had we provided better financial education in schools. We have a very complex and competitive capitalist system and we send our kids into it completely unarmed.

  96. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 11:27 am

    Where does Ralph Nader live, 11:19? I think what you mean is that no one the system does not filter out wanted to take the punch bowl away.

    I would be more accepting of the rest of your argument if the system had been capable of bankrupting all those who took on the risks of CDOs and their derivatives, or if there were any evidence that those who sold them under false pretenses were going to see time behind bars.

    Failing that, what I see is a government/economic system which, as systems generally do, acted to the benefit of those who owned it and at the expense of those who just get to vote.

  97. Plain Jane
    April 20, 2011 at 11:30 am

    11:19, if no one expected it to fail, why the proliferation of hedge funds betting on failure?

  98. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 11:31 am

    And, 11:19, if you were a retail banker following orders to generate mortgage business — liar loans be damned — would you be acting that way because you believed real estate prices would never fall, or would you be acting that way because you made money and took no risk with every mortgage you wrote?

    I’d guesstimate that about, oh, 99.99% of those loans got made for the latter reason. Maybe 0.01% got written for the former.

  99. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 11:39 am

    Little by little things are ruined. A few trees cut- a few die from root disturbance. Another road is widened causing water run off along with suffocation of roots. Many things take a while to be destroyed. Some large areas are destroyed all at once. Take your pick-the end result is the same.

  100. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 11:41 am

    By the way, this scenario has been repeated every few years in different forms since the invention of finance (100’s of years) and is already playing out again in the commodities and treasury markets. The severity of each crisis and its impact on the economy will vary, but the cycle will never stop.

    Your only defense is to educate yourself and stop loving money. This will free you from the fear of losing what you have, keep you from taking unnecessary risks and relieve you of the burden of hating others for what they have.

  101. pluto
    April 20, 2011 at 11:44 am

    What about all the business establishments around the grove that will be ruined. Just like the truck stop and restaurant in Alton, the little guy is expendable.

  102. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 11:47 am

    I can’t speak for others, 11:41, but I don’t think I hate the banksters. But hate them or not, I don’t want to see them dictating the way they are regulated.

    Perhaps that looks to you like hate.

    At least to me, it feels completely consistent with the way I feel about people like Buju Banton and Pat Robertson. I don’t hate them for calling for others to murder me, or for asserting that people will be punished for respecting my right to equality. But I don’t want them to continue calling for my murder, or to be given honor and respect for pretending they know God’s will.

    The only people I notice myself hating (and I’m not proud of it) are the ones in a position to stand up, but who clearly couldn’t give a shit.

  103. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Jane,

    Everyone saw the problem after it was there. By then it was too late.

    Mitch,

    Liar loans wouldn’t have been possible without money to lend. The retail guys are only the pawns not the cause. In the end it is the borrower and the lender in business together. Whenever you have that much supply and demand for a product somebody will be willing to sell it.

    If either side had thought they were going to lose money the retail schmucks would never existed.

    Self interest is like gravity, deny it at your peril. You are not going to fix these issues that way, Marx tried that. If you think people will put your interest ahead of their own on a consistent basis you will get ripped off for sure.

    If anyone had run for office saying I am going to pop the housing bubble before it gets worse, and that it is going to cause a recession they wouldn’t have been elected. Nobody believed there was a problem until it was too late then everyone wanted to postpone the pain as .long as possible hoping for a miracle.

  104. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    12:03,

    “Self interest is like gravity, deny it at your peril.”

    There is the argument, in a nutshell, for effective regulation. The system will always be under attack from the self-interested (all of us), and justifies its existence by its ability to set limits to our self-interested behavior.

    What I believe has been evident over the past forty years is the system’s complete capture and neutering by the wealthiest. That, in my opinion, has gone far towards destroying any justification for its existence.

    I don’t have any answers — I’m sure you are right about electability. Democracy is fragile. I feel we’ve already destroyed ours, and we’re just in a waiting game to see what emerges from the rubble. So far, it’s not looking very decent, but the advertisements are surely magnificent works of genius, and hey look at that iPad.

  105. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    The regulatory failure is a huge issue. People get blinded by this idea of innovation always being good and that competiing self interests will check and balance each other. Unfortunately, in finance, understanding what is in your own interest can be a sketchy thing.

    The question now is how to re regulate the system. It is not a simple task either. One of the big issues is leverage, which is still too high.

    The best idea I have heard is to raise taxes high enough on speculative gains (leveraged investments, derivatives, and rapid trading schemes) to make them unattractive from a risk reward perspective. This would suck up a lot of excess capital a push it back into real investments (the kind that actually creates jobs).

    Second, dividends paid to shareholders should be deductible at the corporate level and taxed as ordinary income at the individual level. This would put debt (which is deductible) and dividends on an even playing field, further reducing leverage. It would also effectively increase taxes on unearned income while at the same time eliminate the double taxation problem.

    Finally, capital gains need to be taxed as ordinary income (or higher) unless the holding period of the asset is longer than a decade. This will encourage investors to take a long term view and demand management do so as well.

  106. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    “The best idea I have heard is to raise taxes high enough on speculative gains (leveraged investments, derivatives, and rapid trading schemes) to make them unattractive from a risk reward perspective. This would suck up a lot of excess capital a push it back into real investments (the kind that actually creates jobs).”

    The day that passes I promise I’ll reconsider the existence of a benevolent God.

  107. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    “The day that passes I promise I’ll reconsider the existence of a benevolent God.”

    That one exists or that they are benevolent? : )

  108. From EPIC
    April 20, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    If you’d like to know EPIC’s position on Richardson Grove check out their website’s recent posting from their Executive Director, Gary Hughes:

    http://www.wildcalifornia.org/blog/an-injury-to-one-state-park-is-an-injury-to-all-state-parks/

  109. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    That is a load of horse crap. Graecan knew it and had the sense to get out before the house crumbled entirely. They want money and Redwood Park vs Caltrans sells well to people who don’t do their homework before getting out their checkbook.

  110. Not A Native
    April 20, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Lots of points here about details of financing, I can’t hit them all.

    But I’d say Mitch should at least be considering becoming a deist. The requirement for banks to have more capital and to retain a larger portion of their loans has a chilling effect on their taking risk and speculating. That’s more effective and better than a tax. There’s a fight on now to put a similar necessary chilling effect on investment banking and hedge funds.

    PJ made a point that there was a lot of hedging being done by holders of ‘securitized debt’. She’s absolutely correct, banks were prudently trying to limit the risks they thought they had. But they didn’t understand the reality of their risks, so they weren’t hedged enough. And the Public bailout ultimately was needed for the other side of those hedges(AIG) because they made promises to pay that they couldn’t keep all at the same time.

    Mitch focused on how important trust is for politics to be beneficial. But trust is even more important for financial transactions to occur because individuals have a more personal and daily stake in them. That was the justification for the public bailout, and I agree with that justification.

    My only beef is that for the sake of trust, a lot of inequality has been created that I think wasn’t necessary. If everyone made thoughtless mistakes then there shouldn’t be large winners and losers as a result. IMHO, contracts should have been broken in a kind of financial martial law.

  111. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    Not a Native,

    Points well taken but risk retention requirements would not have stopped the collapse of Long Term Capital Management (1998), a direct precursor to the big crisis. They kicked all of their clients out so there was more room for them and still nearly brought down the financial system. If you want to speculate, do so as a venture capitalist instead of inventing derivatives and carry trades that serve no other purpose besides taking risk.

  112. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    The problem is that today there is such an imbalance between investment capital and consumption capital that people have to invent new things to invest in. Seems like an imbalance best fixed by changing tax policy to favor the consumer class rather than the producer class for a while.

  113. Plain Jane
    April 20, 2011 at 4:08 pm

    The financial institutions which bundled mortgages they knew were trash with a few good ones, sold them as good and then bought insurance on them, betting they would fail, should have their charters revoked and those who knew and / or participated in the scheme sent to prison. Why isn’t hedge fund income taxed like gambling income?

  114. Walt
    April 20, 2011 at 4:35 pm

    And why aren’t any of these folks behind bars, instead of giving themselves huge bonuses?

  115. Not A Native
    April 20, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    Well anon LTCM was a hedge fund and regulations for hedge funds is right now being fought over. One thing that has already changed is the amount of leverage of hedge funds take is more transparent. So, to some degree, their risk is better understood. But its not enough, IMO. Don’t forget that the biggest investors in LTCM weren’t retail customers, but banks whose risk loads are under more regulation now. We’ll just have to wait to find out whether or not Mitch will have to pray to his deity.

    I don’t understand what consumption capital is anon 3:54, explain.

    Yep, PJ I think some of the contracts AIG had with investment banks should have been nullified. That would have required assigning blame in an extralegal way. The laws were honored, justice wasn’t.

    There was some backroom clawback when the Fed made Merrill Lynch agree to be acquired by BofA or else go bankrupt. But the choices of who would take a haircut were arbitrary. Some believe that Geithner’s relationship with Goldman Sachs was an important factor, I don’t know.

  116. Plain Jane
    April 20, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    My guess is it is investing in consumers (higher wages) who will buy products from businesses owned by investors. How do you do that?

  117. "HENCHMAN OF JUSTICE"
    April 20, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    Anonymous says:
    April 20, 2011 at 3:54 pm
    The problem is that today there is such an imbalance between investment capital and consumption capital that people have to invent new things to invest in. Seems like an imbalance best fixed by changing tax policy to favor the consumer class rather than the producer class for a while.

    Response: Yet, producers are consumers because who can snap heir fingers like a genie outta the bottle and get what they want, now. It does not happen that way. To produce, to manufacture…requires the consumption of taxable resources. The key is a National sales tax only tax collection system where tax revenue is not created on the sales of basic goods and services that any life would need. Anything that is non-basic gets sales taxed – and, only taxation on new products, not used products or yard sale type products.

    JL

  118. Mitch
    April 20, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    I didn’t say I’d pray. I said I’d reconsider her existence and/or benevolence.

  119. RAMDX
    April 20, 2011 at 5:33 pm

    Hey, Heraldo, next time how about giving a shout out before hand to the Richardson Grove protests the way you did to those tea party events. Please?

  120. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    Random Guy, I couldn’t answer or write back until now. Computer and work issues are in the way. Businesses who support the CalTrans improvement of the road through Richardson’s Grove include:

    cattle and livestock ranchers
    Amulet
    Cypress Grove Cheese
    Yakima
    Humboldt County Brewers
    Sun Valley Floral, INC
    Arcata Community Recycling

    others felt to be supportive:

    Recology
    Safeway
    Target
    Kohl’s
    CVS
    Rite-Aid
    Del-Reka
    Humboldt County Truckers
    Food service industry (supply restaurants)
    Costco
    Michael’s
    Winco

  121. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    You’re joking about that list, right? Is this some kind of trick? If that represents the depth of your knowledge, 5:51, let alone being among the reasons you claim to actually support screwing with an old growth grove…in Humboldt County no less…then please just remove yourself from the argument and/or move away from here.

  122. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    Not a Native,

    True LTCM’s clients were in large banks, who were also trying to replicate the strategy at the same time. They were also steering their clients.into the fund. My point was that retained risk only works when the bankers think the deals are bad. In LTCM’s case as well as the recent financial crisis, no one really thought the seals were bad until it was too late. Then they devoured each other.

    My reference to consumption capital strikes at the difference between the amount of capital deployed to investment as opposed to consumption. When it is out of balance to the consumption side as it was in the 70’s after decades of very high marginal tax rates you get stagflation. When it is out of balance favoring the production side as it is now you get asset bubbles. I believe these imbalances are the result of supply side vs demand side economic policy but demographic trends could impact it as well.

  123. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    Anon 5:51

    That’s an old list. Amulet Mfg. already left as did Jacques Chocolates. Cypress Grove was considering leaving the area before learning of the project. Really you can include just about any business that exports products. Local truckers actually aren’t enthusiastic supporters as it will affect their competitive position negatively but they understand the issue enough to agree it is needed. The big retailers have been silent. Not suprising since their distribution systems give them a big advantage over the mom ans pop businesses now.

  124. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    …6:41, you CAN NOT just include any business that exports as supporters…the fact is most local businesses DON’T support the project, especially as the image of Humboldt is among their selling points, and that doesn’t include compromising forests for freeways. No local business wants to wear that label, because most people don’t support the project…here or anywhere.

    Local truckers are adamantly AGAINST the project as STAA incorporates national enterprises that have choked local trucking families to death already all over the nation.

    Local companies continue to survive because of lack of the second half of that list…big boxers, most of them on that list directly under the same chain of command.

    …and don’t forget, sun valley trucks in illegal immigrants to work their farm.

    There are other glaring errors in that list, but we should leave it to the expert to figure it out for him/herself.

  125. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Random Guy-well said – “compromising forests for freeways”

  126. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    Random- the facts are that this project will not significantly affect the redwoods in an environmental way. The facts are that local businesses want it. I didn’t know Amulet had moved away, but perhaps this problem with shipping was part of their need to move.
    If there were a vote today, I am confident that those who are reasonable and not fringe or extremists would vote for it. I just think you and some others are fighting a battle that could be better won protecting other trees. I wish you would.

  127. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    What other errors are within that list, 7:44? Or are you ill informed?

  128. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Are you ill informed? You act like old growth trees are going to be cut. It’s amazing what people think listening to random rumors.

  129. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    Sjaak’s Chocolates did not leave. It is now Venlo, right? Local businesses are all for this project.

  130. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    What kind of answer to the question is that? You not only presented a list of less than ten businesses that actually support the project, but it’s not even factual. How about this, present us with a list of businesses that adamantly oppose the project.

    Your inherent bias is glowing more than you say mine is.

  131. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    I was amazed that the Marina Center got voted for. People seem to want business to work here. No matter your feelings about big boxes or the philosophy regarding that, people here support business. Show me a list of businesses that don’t want the Richardson’s Grove project. I am in the business world and I see that those on my list support it. If they have taken their names off the list, I didn’t know. There is a large amount of support for it and those against it are considered fringe in my world. Mostly because those of us who care about the environment know the facts and don’t see your reasons to fight this one. Time for other activities for me. I will see your answer tomorrow.

  132. neomoderate
    April 20, 2011 at 8:38 pm

    OK Random, find us a list of local business, ones that export significant amounts of goods, that are in adamant opposition to the project. From where I sit, your posts contain lots of “everyones” and “No-ones”, but precious few facts. My friends, who are pretty damn liberal, are split about 60/40 for the project. They are almost unanimous in their agreement that the opposition to this project makes all of us look bad, however. Feels like Fox news coverage.

  133. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:39 pm

    How very very sad it is, that the entire basis of your argument is economics. Highly disputed and speculative at that. It’s disgusting. You completely ignore global outcry over tampering with old growth preserves. You arrogantly thumb an overwhelming majority of the world’s people. People don’t care about Humboldt’s Target or Costco, but they travel the world to visit THAT GROVE.

    Move out of Humboldt and get a job at a big box, for crying out loud. Do the forest lovers of the world and the local businesses a favor…this is a blatant violation of our land and our rights…pack up and leave!

  134. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Loser? Do you not get it that this is not an environmental to-do? Read the plan!! Read it.

  135. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    neomoderate, we obviously don’t have the same friends. I’m done for the day, why don’t you skip the questions…I could ask you a hundred in no time flat. Please demonstrate that you’re actually thinking…start addressing the many other points I raised in my many other posts.

  136. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    Same to you, 8:42…many other points you won’t touch.

  137. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    go hug an 8 inch alder that will grow back to that size in three years. knowing which trees to save is part of making a difference.

  138. Random Guy
    April 20, 2011 at 8:45 pm

    We have a winner! 8:44 letting his true colors show. Damn them tree huggers! Get a clue.

  139. Anonymous
    April 20, 2011 at 9:08 pm

    Random shows his true colors! Save the trees no matter what the facts are! Get some education and information.

  140. tra
    April 20, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    I see claims here that “most local businesses support the RG realignment” and claims that “most local businesses oppose it.

    Same with the population at large — I see claims that “most” people support the project, and other claims that “most” oppose it.

    What I don’t see is what people are basing any of these claims on. Has anyone actually done any legitimate public opinion research on this question? Or is everybody just shooting from the hip?

    Just curious.

  141. neomoderate
    April 20, 2011 at 9:31 pm

    tra, you’re on to something. Another thing I’d like to see is real data on shipping costs. My mind’s pretty made up on the impacts, which will be minimal I think, but whether it’s worth the $$ is another question.

    Does seem silly to have a couple hundred yards of road be the only impediment to modern trucking.

  142. Mitch
    April 21, 2011 at 6:41 am

    The stretch of road would not be an impediment to “modern trucking” if CalTrans would install traffic lights for trucks only, so that trucking past the bottleneck was one way at all times. The needed red light could be tripped by the passage of a truck at the opposite red light, and could remain red either for five minutes or until the opposite truck passed the needed red light. Hell, you could even use license plate readers to ensure you matched up the entering and exiting trucks.

    Or, simpler, Caltrans could put in place a truck rule like “Northbound on the hour, Southbound on the half hour” and CHP could enforce it.

  143. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 9:24 am

    TRA, I’m not going to play the “exact words” game with you…put on your thinking cap, I know it fits….and I’d never mention names even on an informal internet forum without permission. Do your own polling. Bring it up in conversation. I’m shameless about it. It’s important, not just to me. Where do YOU think most people in the world stand on this? or would stand, if you insist this is a hypothetical situation?

    …making it about trucks is a disgusting distraction to begin with. Not only for the reason mitch just brought up, that STAA trucks can and already have been going through there forever. Moreso because it’s drone thinking, void of the real big picture and not addressing the very serious issues of injustice surroundig the project to begin with.

    The intentionally misleading name alone is Orwellian, for crying out loud…this “improvement” project is all about CUTTING MORE FREEWAY THROUGH ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING OLD GROWTH GROVES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD…right here in Humboldt County!

  144. Landlord
    April 21, 2011 at 9:52 am

    The larger (of the two) redwoods to be removed is 9 inches in diamer. No tree more than 24 inches in diameter is going to be removed. I am wondering why this project is a worry for anyone?

  145. Mitch
    April 21, 2011 at 10:06 am

    Landlord,

    If you wanted to, you could simply read through the comments on this one thread to learn that many (most? all?) of the opponents of RGIP are opposed for concerns other than its impact on two small redwood trees.

    They sound to me like they are saying “enough!”

    Try opening your mind just a bit to the possibility that the protesters are not morons.

  146. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Landlord, then why…to you…does such insignificance weigh more than the many other points repeatedly mentioned above? What is the SIGNIFICANCE you claim for, vs. the SIGNIFICANCE not?

    …and consider this…if the USA decided to park the Statue of Liberty in Humboldt, permanently, it would be pretty incredible, no? Caltrans could build a quarter mile solic concrete parking lot around the whole thing. Hotels and the whole shabang. It would remain a glowing symbol of “freedom”.

    Richardson Grove, and ALL forests like it, are living breathing monuments. Freeways are the antithesis of what they have come to represent.

  147. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 10:30 am

    My time is up, and I’m through with this. Call me crazy, but don’t let it cloud your vision…

    …pay attention to who addresses what issues. It’s not “insignificant”.

  148. tra
    April 21, 2011 at 10:44 am

    Do your own polling. Bring it up in conversation.

    Well, I guess that answers my question — the claims that “most people” are against the project are based on personal conversations, not on any kind of meaningful public opinion research that attempted to survey a real cross-section of the whole community.

    Look, personally I think we ought to leave RG alone, I don’t think there’s any real need for the project, and it seems clear that there is at least some risk that some of the old-growth trees may be harmed by the disturbance of their roots and so on.

    It’s just that I hear these dueling claims that “most people” or “most businesses” are clearly on one side or the other of the debate, and I was curious whether there was any real basis for those claims. So far I haven’t heard of anything that would really back up those claims — from either side.

  149. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 11:20 am

    You win, TRA! Congratulations! Yes, I can only speak for about five times the number of businesses than on the falsified list above. And most people I’ve talked to about it, casually or in depth, think the project is as insane as I do. The “insignificance” argument is completely on the feet of Caltrans. They should drop this thing like a bad habit and do something much better with the money.

    TRA says: “Look, personally I think we ought to leave RG alone, I don’t think there’s any real need for the project, and it seems clear that there is at least some risk that some of the old-growth trees may be harmed by the disturbance of their roots and so on.”

    Thanks! It would be nice if you took the time to spread that word! Instead, you continue to blabber your pseudo-moderate knowitallism to defend your own “exact words” arguments…as usual. Good job! You want “meaningful public opinion cross-section research”, give us a yes or a no and stfu already. Reads like you say NO. How important is that to you?

    HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT TO >>YOU<<?

    FACT: AN OVER-MOTHERFUCKING-WHELMING number of people ALL OVER THE WORLD DO NOT SUPPORT COMPROMISING OLD GROWTH FORESTS FOR FREEWAYS ANYMORE WHATSOEVER.

    Have a nice day!

  150. Landlord
    April 21, 2011 at 11:42 am

    Truly a heated debate. Hope it can be resolved. I did read the entire thread. Both sides may have to reach a compromise, I suppose.

  151. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    How should your “side” compromise, landlord? Please be specific. Surely you have some ideas.

  152. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    …and in that regard, I don’t see it as a matter of compromise. The project should be thrown out altogether. I would, however, sincerely like to read how you believe there’s room within your opinion for compromise.

  153. Anonymous
    April 21, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    You can bulldoze the whole grove and put in a four lane highway and it won’t help business in Eureka. The Chamber of Commerce doesn’t do a good job and the whole economy is based on welfare. Someone else should decide weather it is a good idea to carve up a State Park and those making the decision shouldn’t be Cal Trans and the local bumpkins.

  154. Mitch
    April 21, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    “You can bulldoze the whole grove and put in a four lane highway and it won’t help business in Eureka.”

    Because, as so many have said, we are very far away from everything else. Shaving an hour or a buck from trucking times might marginally help some struggling businesses, just as losing some amount of Humboldt’s isolation might hurt some tourism-based businesses.

    A sensible approach to an economy is figuring out what makes your locality unique — what gives it natural advantages over other localities in certain things — and try to build the economy around those unique advantages.

    The primary unique advantage that Humboldt has is this: it hasn’t been as uglified as other parts of the country. Not unrelated, it also has a large creative community and a large set of immigrants/refugees from the rest of the US.

    Any group that was seriously interested in the economic future of the county would start from there, not by trying to make access marginally less difficult.

  155. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    “Shaving an hour or a buck from trucking times might marginally help some struggling businesses”

    not so…struggling businesses aren’t supporting this project. Our local cheese factory is booming. Big boxes that get their foundation money from outside the area are definitely supporting this project…but to play the exact word game, there’s no official word from them, no?

    In actual fact…agreeing with your last words completely…look at any existing businesses that’s doing well today. If your business can manage right now, you will win the pepsi/coke war hands down…without carving more freeway through an old growth preserve, and without assisting any nationalized competitors in the process, now or in the future.

  156. Landlord
    April 21, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    Perhaps a meeting to discuss which trees and how to go about it, Random, with representatives of both sides present.

    You don’t sound like you would go for that. It isn’t up to me, of course, but I am thinking clear information and communication are what is lacking here.

  157. Random Guy
    April 21, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    So, landlord, you agree that caltrans should stop the project, even if only for the sake of public input? Also, nobody’s been given any choice whatsoever. Do you support that?

  158. Anonymous
    April 21, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    I think a meeting would be a good thing to do, yes, for the sake of public input and communication so we could hear from Cal Trans and whoever did the EIN, and they could answer questions and listen to comments and concerns. Me thinking it would be a good idea does not mean it will happen, of course.

  159. tra
    April 21, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    Thanks! It would be nice if you took the time to spread that word!

    I do. You’re welcome.

    …you continue to blabber your pseudo-moderate knowitallism ….

    Hey! I resemble that remark!

    Good job! You want “meaningful public opinion cross-section research”, give us a yes or a no and stfu already. Reads like you say NO. How important is that to you?

    I don’t understand this part of your comment. You’re asking me to say “yes or no” to the project, or to meaningful public opinion research? Well, no to the RG project (for the reasons I outlined above), yes to meaningful public opinion research if you want to make claims about what “most people” want.

    Have a nice day!

    Right back atcha.

  160. Random Guy
    April 22, 2011 at 1:39 am

    It’s not important to you, “tra”. Fuck the whole internet. Look at the bullshit. Support something? Disapprove of something? Trolls, spam, smear campaigns, pissing contests. Fuck it.

  161. Mitch
    April 22, 2011 at 6:34 am

    Once again, reasoned discussion leads citizens of our great democracy to reconsider their positions and recognize how those with opposing positions might have valid points. We could teach the folks in DC a thing or two.

  162. Random Guy
    April 22, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Once again, history repeats itself…one “improvement” at a time.

  163. Reinventing The Wheel
    April 23, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    While our municipalities struggle to avoid insolvency, we need that $10 million to improve 101 where most of Humboldt County’s traffic fatalities and injuries occur; 101 downtown Eureka.

  164. Random Guy
    April 25, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    Yesterday’s news already? Who’da thunk…

  165. meaningful protest
    April 26, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    Just saw Kim Starr- Verbena or whatever she calls herself on channel 3 news. She was getting more face time about nuclear power and Richardson Grove. I do not want to be associated with the likes of her. She would protest fly swatters if she could be in the news. I am against the alignment of Richardson Grove and nuclear power and I feel it is an insult to have the news make it look as if we are all a bunch of slackers and nut cases. Many more people would protest but they have jobs and also don’t want to be associated with the professional loafers that devalue such important issues.

  166. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    “don’t want to be associated with the professional loafers that devalue such important issues.”

    I totally agree, in depth coverage of protest is minimal at best. Wouldn’t you say the news is devaluing the issue all the more then, by not putting a spotlight on the likes of your peers’ involvement instead? If the issue is a line in the sand, kim whatsername and the professional loafers are on your side nonetheless, and that counts for something good.

    It’s too important an issue to be blindsided by fear of association.

  167. Mr. Nice
    April 26, 2011 at 8:45 pm

    I am against the alignment of Richardson Grove and nuclear power

    They got Richardson Grove sewed up for big truckloads. Big truckloads of what? Fluoride for Manila.

    Fluoride is almost like saying nuclear. Fluoride is what they tryna use in that bougie lftr nuclear shit. Lftrs use hydrofluoric acid, that deadly ass shit that folks cleans their chrome spokes and gold feet with. Not Armor All Quicksilver though, they want to mix nuclear thorium with acid.

    Whole fucking thing is hard to follow with the cleaning the little bullshit off rims turning into some kinna nuclear Richardson Grove Manila fluoridation shit. But this is Humboldt, connect the dots.

  168. Anonymous
    April 26, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    I am against nuclear power, don’t mind the Richardson Grove project, and think fluoride has helped many people keep their teeth and their health. It occurs naturally in many water sources. Having too much is not good, but the right amount can be very helpful. All of the major health orgs support it. I believe them, the local doctors and dentists, and our local health officials over a bunch of people who believe everything they read on obscure websites.

  169. Anonymous
    April 26, 2011 at 9:09 pm

    right, 6:29. I posted this on Quick Notes:

    Watching the news tonight, I am wondering why people with more traditional credibility (not those with one word names like “Verbena”) are front and center in the protests. It would give it more clout, instead of appearing to be people who have time to complain about everything because they dropped out of society. Not criticizing the protesters themselves, just telling those who want to make a difference that their leaders and especially those who speak in front of the news camera have to be credible to the general population. These are people who can’t rent an apartment because they don’t have a last name or give out social security numbers for credit.

  170. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    ” people who have time to complain about everything because they dropped out of society. Not criticizing the protesters themselves…These are people who can’t rent an apartment because they don’t have a last name or give out social security numbers for credit.”

    Uh…you just criticized the protesters themselves. Extremely unfairly. Entering hte realm of protesting the protesters instead of what you claim to be protesting.

    Also, I don’t believe it’s public’s responsibility to protest for necessary changes, any more than the general public is to blame for society’s problems. If your comments on this and other blogs soley reflect your criticism toward this and other projects, it would make a world of difference on the internet and in person. Civilized adults are above childish fears of association, as seen by the very mixed lot at all the protests thus far.

  171. Anonymous
    April 26, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Oh, bother, Random. You blew past my point and got all prickly. Moving on. The point is people don’t take that sort of person seriously, even if they are well intentioned. They would be better served finding better spokespeople.

  172. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    Nobody’s seeking spokespeople…if, in your 9:28 comment, by “they” you really mean to include “you”…do you?

    …landlord?

  173. Anonymous
    April 26, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    Listen, if I am angry about a nuclear plant being put in, I don’t want people named Sunflower or people who look high representing an important cause. I want credible spokespeople who know something about their topic coming out and showing the public that this cause is something a range of people should take notice of. I would seek spokespeople if I were involved, is all I’m sayin’. I don’t know much about nuclear power except I am afraid of it, and having numbers of people who don’t like something is a good thing, but to convince people I would want those who know the science behind it as well.

    …NAN?

    Going to bed.

  174. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 9:54 pm

    Not talking about nuclear power though, are we?

    Good night!

  175. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    I wonder how well bigotry helps any cause.

  176. Anonymous
    April 26, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    “if I were involved”

    If me Auntie had ballocks she’d be me uncle.

  177. Plain Jane
    April 26, 2011 at 10:05 pm

    Everyone wants credible spokespersons, 9:46. A person who is credible to you may not be credible to me and vice versa. You seem to be the sort who is so biased by superficialities that you would hold a person’s name against them. Being that dumb certainly makes you less credible than someone with an odd name.

  178. meaningful protest
    April 26, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    When trying to get a message out or educating people, the spokesperson should not be someone who has lost credibility with those that need to receive information.

  179. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    It falls into the realm of blaming the victim, to suggest lack of some sort of ultimately ideological spokesperson is the reason everybody’s getting fucked.

  180. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    …protesting the protesters aside…still many points above that haven’t been addressed by those who claim to support the “improvement” project.

    …landlord? I’d especially like to read a response to my question above.

  181. taxed
    April 26, 2011 at 10:26 pm

    Kim Starr lost any credibility when she ran the homeless camping in Arcata and Eureka city hall parking lot just to name a couple of things. She is a total joke. I do not want her representing my beliefs. I think the desecration of the grove and nuclear power are worthy issues to protest against. But having whack jobs like Starr giving interviews will not convince most of those wanting information to join our cause.

  182. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    …summa you folks got issues, and they ain’t the issues.

  183. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 10:35 pm

    taxed, would it be fair to say you don’t want Channel 3 representing you, as they are the ones who seek these spokespeople who are so important to your beliefs?

  184. taxed
    April 26, 2011 at 10:50 pm

    Random Guy– I went to the protest at Caltrans the other day and Kim was there and was speaking as usual and so the media will often go to the person that is the most outrageous or loud. For those turning on the TV or the pages in the paper she is a turn off, big time. She is a trouble maker with Cop Watch and other anti- establishment crap. You seriously think those on the fence about these issues are going to take her for anything but a troublemaker? And another thing is that there should be a direction to stay on point. Have you thought about this, You show up at a protest for the trees and the speakers are talking in favor of dog fighting and and shooting homeless. Stay on track Dude.

  185. taxed
    April 26, 2011 at 10:51 pm

    strike that extra and

  186. Random Guy
    April 26, 2011 at 11:26 pm

    “Stay on track Dude.”

    This thread was about specifics regarding the project itself, until a couple people including yourself made the conscious decision to fall off track and protest the protesters.

    …landorld?

  187. taxed
    April 27, 2011 at 12:12 am

    There is a need to have speakers that have credibility and gain respect instead of speakers that turn people off.

  188. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 5:22 am

    Amen, Meaningful Protest! Jane comes back with her typical “you are dumb” if you don’t agree, kind of response, and Random Guy wants his question answered, which was not pertinent to the comment I made. Meaningful Protests put it the way perhaps I should have:

    “When trying to get a message out or educating people, the spokesperson should not be someone who has lost credibility with those that need to receive information.”

    This is one of the problems with a blog conversation like this, and many a protest. People are spouting off information and not communicating what they want to project in a believable way to those they want to educate or change the opinion of. When you run a successful campaign, you are finding a way to relate to the people who are your target audience.

  189. Plain Jane
    April 27, 2011 at 5:24 am

    You should step up and do it then instead of catcalling from the benches, Taxed. There is nothing stopping you from organizing your own protests, choosing who you want to be the spokesperson, if not yourself. But be aware, the act of protesting ANYTHING will lessen your credibility with “some people.”

  190. Plain Jane
    April 27, 2011 at 5:29 am

    And there is anonymous jumping in with more lies. I didn’t say he was dumb for not agreeing with anyone, but because he was biased against superficialities like odd names. If you don’t think that is about as shallow as it gets, you might not be too bright either.

  191. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 5:38 am

    Jane, my point is that people ARE shallow and full of bias in their judgment of other types, and to reach them you need to find those who are credible to them. To reach the voting population, you don’t target other people like you, to try to reach out to those who don’t understand your message. A person with a name like Verbena, without a last name, is not going to convince a person like my dad who is a traditional sort. People need to get smart if they want to send a message that will be heard.

  192. Plain Jane
    April 27, 2011 at 6:10 am

    STEP UP TO THE PLATE 5:38! Pandering to people so bigoted that a person’s name turns them off is a waste of energy. Activist organizations aren’t companies that hire celebrity spokespersons. People who won’t hear the message because the person speaking has a funny name, is the wrong color or sex, aren’t likely to be convinced by rational arguments because they are focused on the messenger and not the message. Tea Party bigots who post videos from Stormfront and post bigoted remarks on birther and anti-Muslim sites don’t have rational minds which can be changed with information no matter its source because they are incapable of processing information that doesn’t fit perfectly with what they already believe.

  193. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 6:18 am

    Pandering to the voters is what didn’t happen in the last local election. Understanding who you need to convince is a reality. Being Jane, you won’t get it.

  194. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 6:29 am

    Looking at who can and does show up at some protests will put turn off many potential listeners. If those same people are there protesting everything and anything, the protest can lose validity. The Richardson’s Grove protest doesn’t seem to have anyone with any science behind them. An HSU professor, perhaps? No, just the same people who sound like they haven’t read all the project details.

  195. Plain Jane
    April 27, 2011 at 6:58 am

    Being Jane, I understand that pandering for support is vile manipulation. You may gain supporters but you lose your integrity.

    Pandering definition:

    1. To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer.
    2. To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others or exploit their weaknesses.

  196. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 7:03 am

    You’re missing my point. You have to reach your audience when you protest. Otherwise, you are wasting your time.

  197. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 7:06 am

    Jane, you are the one who brought up pandering at 6:10, saying that pandering to bigots is a waste of time. I think we both used that term loosely.

  198. Plain Jane
    April 27, 2011 at 7:23 am

    I didn’t use it loosely at all. Pandering to bigots, whether they are bigoted over odd names (Barrack HUSSEIN Obama), race, sexual orientation or appearance is manipulation rather than appealing to the logical mind. People who can’t get beyond such ridiculously superficial prejudices aren’t going to be of much help unless everyone in the trenches is just like them. That works for the Tea Party, not so much for social and environmental activism where diversity is respected and encouraged.

  199. Mitch
    April 27, 2011 at 7:33 am

    not so much for social and environmental activism where diversity is respected and encouraged.

    Maybe in the abstract. Activists on both sides can be equally pig-headed and intolerant.

  200. Mr. Nice
    April 27, 2011 at 7:34 am

    “When trying to get a message out or educating people, the spokesperson should not be someone who has lost credibility with those that need to receive information.”

    What information?

    We’ve all read the EIR (I think). Bunch of bullshit tan oak gonna get chopped. So what?

    Folks are all paranoid that the trees are gonna fall over or whatever. I mean shit, if fucking with the roots was gonna topple redwood trees in a somewhat flat area like that, wouldn’t redwoods be falling over all over the place? Their roots hold hands man. It’s like a big ass hippy retreat up in those forests all them roots holding hands.

    My problem is all the people I see round here against the shit are all weed trimmers or fucking base their whole business off unsustainable bullshit. All the folks up north like y’all don’t even drive on this road so fuck y’all. Y’all won’t even have to deal with the traffic nightmare.

    The info folks need to recognize is this ain’t Maxxam, this is the goddamn highway. The Feds are making our state do this shit. It’s not like anybody really gives a fuck if a truck a couple of feet longer is “safe.” The government is corrupt, CalTrans ain’t gone listen to y’all.

  201. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 7:37 am

    A simple comment. You disagree, apparently.

  202. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 7:40 am

    See, Mr. Nice can just turn off people he wants to convince in a few seconds. Reading all of his anger and profanity will just about put anyone on the defensive, and close their ears instead of open them.

    If you want your audience to listen, you have to have a way to say it that leads to their feeling like it is a dialog and not a monolog.

  203. Mary Jane Cunningham
    April 27, 2011 at 8:32 am

    It was Bush that combined FEMA/Homeland Security, started two wars,and cut taxes for the super rich. BP petrol has the worst safety record of any on the planet. Government should protect citizens during any disaster, not sell out to the Big Oil thugs. The Gulf and it’s inhabitants are devastated for who knows how long. New Orleans was gutted of it’s color and is a ghost of it’s former self. If we had a similar event such as Japan here in Eureka, would you rely on FEMA? It is this possibility that necessitates Gov.

  204. Mary Jane Cunningham
    April 27, 2011 at 8:46 am

    So if our Corporatrocracy wants to slice up your Redwoods, why it is the least you can do. What is more important than yet another Super Center. The best thing about Eureka is location and size. Being remote has it’s advantages

  205. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Intentional and completely baseless smear:

    “don’t want to be associated with the professional loafers that devalue such important issues”

    “instead of speakers that turn people off.”

    “appearing to be people who have time to complain about everything because they dropped out of society”

    “will not convince most of those wanting information to join our cause.”

    “lost credibility with those that need to receive information.”

    “The point is people don’t take that sort of person seriously”

    “Looking at who can and does show up at some protests will put turn off many potential listeners.”

    “the protest can lose validity.”

  206. taxed
    April 27, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Anonymous 7:03 said it simply and at it’s best. You have to reach your audience or you are wasting your time.

  207. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 9:48 am

    …add another thumbtack for 9:45.

    Coming soon to a critical issue close to you: childish smear tactics.

  208. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 9:52 am

    Taxed, your first comment in this thread is great. You’re not exactly practicing what you preach thereafter.

  209. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 9:55 am

    bleh internuts making me nuts too…

  210. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 10:00 am

    Who’s that guy that tried to out the “heraldo” posse? If he could put it together to find out the single entity responsible for spamming the NCJ, I’d throw down a few bucks to break some legs…I mean…put an end to it.

    Even moreso for Craigslist rants and raves. If it could be proven that craigslist spams from the inside…Craigslist is and would continue to be the most read internet forum in Humboldt. But it’s spammed with nationalist garbage. Nothing local sticks. Remember Humboldt before Craigslist?

  211. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Whatever, Random Person. Just know that your message may only reach the ears already in your court. Those who vote and you wish to convince will not listen to those who they perceive not to be credible. Sometimes opening someone else’s eyes takes opening your own.

  212. Random Guy
    April 27, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Whose mind isn’t already made up, 12:21? Please make yourself known.

    No secret, I participate in these conversations to directly refute claims that this “improvement” project is either just or justified. As you can read above, a lot of critical points go completely unaddressed by those who’ve already decided they like the idea of carving more freeway through one of the last remaining old growth groves in the world.

  213. Anonymous
    April 27, 2011 at 9:09 pm

    It seems a some of you think the highway will be changed drastically at Richardson’s Grove, making the Grove smaller and changed. I think this is not true after reading the articles about it. I want to know, is it going to be noticeable, or not?

  214. anoymous
    April 27, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Anonymous 9:09 you must be reading the caltrans and COC propaganda. Wanna buy a bridge?

  215. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 6:12 am

    What are you reading?

  216. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 7:44 am

    I just read Hank Sims’ article in The Eye. I thought his feelings on this project were in line with mine. It is just not something that should have triggered much of a response. I think if this had been done without anyone knowing (and I am not condoning that) we might not have noticed the difference. Also, the oldest redwoods would not have noticed.

  217. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 11:46 am

    Yeah, screw Hank for this one…he’s really off base. I could go point per point but it boils down to a few simples. To say the project is insignifacant really works both ways. Take a minute to think about that. Further realize it’s the government walking all over everybody once again…no matter how tiny the step…only yet another step in the bigger move. That’s a fact.

    There is NO single “grovie”. Jeebus, what the hell, there is NO “grovie”! Can that be said enough times?

    Can anybody argue all aspects of the project without it being about one or the other more than any one or the other? It’s an intentional distraction, to not only play the sole spokesperson game…which furthers the “grovie” myth…it also derails the basic facts of the project by saying people aren’t focused in their argument(S!) against it. Hank totally dropped his little fedora thinking cap.

    Did anybody else read comments when the story went AP? ALl over the nation, hands down, bar none, people OPPOSE the project. Pages of it. And look in this very thread how many fall into the “it’s no big deal” category of relevance.

    In ten years, nobody’s gonna notice any difference except that Humboldt resembles everywhere south of here a little more…after a big “so what” to carving a little more out of our own INTERNATIONAL LIVING TREASURE. Anybody wanna take bets on it? Mark those words. Some of you folks yawn at this stuff…it’s unbelievable.

    Hank obviously has connections and is good at getting the word out…but since its inception, the Town Blandy and his current blargh are about as exciting as watching a cow chew cud.

    Let’s read about something you’re genuinely passionate about, Hank, instead of pshawing everybody else’s matters of relevance. In this case, chalking your point on the side of “the man” or whatever YOU want to call it, that doesn’t make you a “grovie”. Pseudo-moderate bullshit, is what it is…sorry, but it’s sorry.

  218. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 12:10 pm

    Did anybody who thinks the issue is insignificant…no big deal…what’s the fuss…really take a minute to really think about that implication?

    Or did you, the reader who’s expressed that argument only further realize your mind is already made up, and for whatever reason you would like to see local landmarks…endangered habitats, nonetheless…further compromised by way of outdated federal mandates?

  219. Teacher
    April 28, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Random Guy, you talk about other people’s minds being made-up going into this issue as if it’s a bad thing. Wouldn’t you fall into the category of someone whose mind is made up prior to “discussing” it on this blog?
    You bring up good points but seem to be very close-minded as to other people’s opinions. I find it funny that you would point out other people and say that they are being close-minded because they disagree, possibly only by degree, with you.

  220. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    I made no secret about the fact that my mind is already made up. Did you read everything above? You’re simply wrong that I’m closed-minded about other people’s opinions…besides the point that an opinion is one thing, a relatable fact is another. Read everything above, with an open mind.

    Are you “against” me, because of my “demeanor”?

  221. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Teacher, on reading your comment again, your statement comes across as though it was made without really considering what was being communicated about the issue itself whatsoever.

  222. Teacher
    April 28, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    For what purpose did you reference the other writer’s mind being made-up? Did I incorrectly read that as an insinuation that said writer was close-minded to the Richardson Grove project.
    By the way, as someone who considers themselves in the middle of the road on this debate, I found your argument that the Grove is a landmark that distinguish Humboldt to be pretty compelling. I don’t see the purposed road as being environmentally significant, but in terms of being beautiful and distinguishing or county, I completely agree with you.

  223. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    You read incorrectly to suggest I said you were close-minded about the project.

    As to your second paragraph, excellent! AND on topic!

    Now if only project “supporters” would continue to contribute to the dialog, regarding the many points above they conveniently and repeatedly choose to ignore…

    This isn’t the state coming to humboldt and saying “we’re gonna build more parks whether you like it or not!” or a bunch of people angry about what the state ISN’T doing. This is a specific project that, based on the rest of the state (nation!) where identical projects have already been completed, is completely baseless in ideology (I’d argue counter-productive altogether) and is a gross misappropriation of over ten million dollars of everybody’s money.

    And, in this new age of global awareness and communication, further desecrates an endangered habitat. Disgusting, for anybody to say this “improvement is anything of the sort.

  224. Teacher
    April 28, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    To further clarify, I did not think that you were accusing me of being close-minded (at least in this instance). I was talking about what you said regarding anonymous 7:44.
    As for everything else, I agree with you.

  225. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    But come on everybody, that puppet show sucked, right?

  226. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    7:44 doesn’t condone not telling people about what’s been planned, but goes on to condone the fact that it’s being done regardless anyway. I promise 1,000 year old trees notice more sun beating down on them, and more cars whizzing past them, and more pavement around them.

    7:44 basically says “it’s no big deal”, so why shouldn’t his argument fall on the “side” that condones protecting these remaining environments unconditionally? 7:44 argues to further compromise forests for freeways.

  227. taxed
    April 28, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Hank Sims article was off on this one. I noticed the NCJ owners are cozy with those that seem to think their products need to be hauled out with STAA trucks. They are those that you would have thought had respect for this unique State Park but their ego and appetite for $ got in the way. They like to pretend to be green and I guess they are is your talking the greenback dollar.

  228. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 10:20 pm

    1000 year old trees will notice more sun on them? Oh, you mean because those few little trees are gone- and how many? 30 trees inside the park under 24 inches in diameter, and 24 outside the park of the same size. That is simply not going to change much in a stretch of highway this length. I just don’t see it.

  229. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 10:34 pm

    I drove through Richardson’s Grove today (in a reasonably sized car, not an oversized vehicle) and I felt fine negotiating turns until faced with a large oncoming truck unable to stay in their designated lane. Not their fault, imo, but scary nonetheless. The lanes are very narrow…just saying. I’m not exactly sure which trees are targeted but think there is room for improvement in one or two areas.

  230. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 10:46 pm

    “I just don’t see it.”

    It’s right there, through the trees. The forest…

  231. Anonymous
    April 28, 2011 at 10:52 pm

    In the scope of things, 54 is not a large number of trees, especially small ones. Maybe you are barking up the wrong one.

  232. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 11:06 pm

    Yeah fuckem little trees in there, freeway is important.

  233. Random Guy
    April 28, 2011 at 11:15 pm

    Freeway! Products! Money! Exporting! Freeway! Importing! Money! Shipping! Freeway! Factories! Market! Freeway! Money! Worldwide! Freeway! Business! Money! Freeway! Money! Industry! Economy! Jobs! FREEWAY!

  234. Bartlby
    June 2, 2011 at 10:49 pm

    we could just keep biggering :P

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