Home > David Tyson, Eureka California, Eureka City Council, Frank Jager, Garr Nielsen > Special Eureka City Council meeting smells bad

Special Eureka City Council meeting smells bad

Frank Jager.

Mayor Frank Jager’s last minute decision to hold a special meeting of the Eureka City Council today at 1pm to address the controversial firing of Police Chief Garr Nielsen doesn’t pass the sniff test to anyone concerned with transparent government.

An editorial in the Times-Standard calls the move “disappointing.”

”(There are) a number of reasons [for the special meeting], but I just don’t want to discuss it with you right now,” Jager told a T-S reporter late Thursday afternoon. “I’m not interested in fighting this battle in the newspapers.

Apparently the mayor would rather do it behind closed doors.

Meanwhile, City Councilman Mike Newman tells the North Coast Journal this week that the “vast majority of Eurekans” support the firing. Yet public support has been notably absent in the week since the unpopular move by City Manager Dave Tyson.

It’s unclear where Newman gets his information, but it’s not from the majority.  Most of the people who voted in November’s election voted against him.

There will be time for public comment at today’s meting before the council ducks out to anoint the feet of the city manager in a closed session.

  1. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Newman, as usual, is talking out of his ass. And Frank, could you be anymore of a weasel?

  2. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 9:54 am

    Stupid, insulting comments of people like Anonymous (above) are not helpful. We need to communicate to our present City Council the degree to which they need to pay attention to constituents with whom they may disagree. Being dismissed as part of a “vocal minority,” frankly pisses me off, but I intend to express my anger respectfully.

  3. High Finance
    July 1, 2011 at 9:54 am

    It does look bad but if that was the real intent it was counter-productive.

    The left will be there in full force but the conservatives will have to be at work. This will be another left wing circus.

  4. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 9:56 am

    HiFi, I’m taking time off from work to be there.

  5. July 1, 2011 at 10:06 am

    “The left will be there in full force but the conservatives will have to be at work.”
    HiFi

    My guess is that HiFi doesn’t have many working class friends, if he does have any, he thinks very little of them.

  6. insider
    July 1, 2011 at 10:07 am

    The Council is trying to cover it’s ass, they violated the brown act on several counts last meeting so the trying to fix it today. Good Luck.

  7. July 1, 2011 at 10:13 am

    The whole situation stinks of corruption and people with something to hide.

  8. OffTheRez
    July 1, 2011 at 10:14 am

    “I’m not interested in fighting this battle in the newspapers.” ya just in the backrooms, right Frank? You sure showed Garr who’s boss didn’t you. Now let’s get your buddy appointed police chief. Then you can do what you want, with who you want, on third street.

  9. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 10:19 am

    It’s wrong to characterize our Mayor as anything other than an exemplary citizen with the best of intentions. Insulting him and other Council members undermines our legitimate grievances.

  10. High Finance
    July 1, 2011 at 10:25 am

    What exactly did they violate in the Brown Act Mr “Insider” ?

    This meeting is a good idea to give the council a chance to let the community vent & become informed rather than wait another week. The only bad part of the idea was the time of day. Should have been at 6pm and not 1pm.

    And Dan Edrige, I AM part of the working class. I work an average of 60 hours per week.

  11. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 10:35 am

    “The only bad part of the idea was the time of day. Should have been at 6pm and not 1pm.”

    Gosh, thanks for the concession HiFi. Was that so difficult? You remind me of the talking heads who would loudly complain about “professional protestors” as we took time away from our livelihoods to protest the invasion of Iraq.

  12. July 1, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Brown Act violations can be prosecuted. They should be prosecuted. They most likely will be swept under the rug.

  13. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 11:00 am

    1 legitimate grievance is where does Newman get off saying the community supports this? I’d like to see his proof since he doesn’t even listen to people who come to council meetings. Even in the blogs the comments applauding the firing are only about 1 in 100. My guess is that Newman is listening to a “majority” of half a dozen good ol boys n girls while he mainlines Tyson’s kool-aid. Arrogant and stupid don’t even begin to describe the man.

  14. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Jager get ready for your chickens to come home to roost. It’s a bad idea to have the city manager sweep your tryst with a hooker under the rug, especially, we assume, when a fired chief and the cops who talked to the hooker know all about it.

  15. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 11:05 am

    Pattycakes, I understand that you are angry, but Mike Newman is neither stupid, nor arrogant. Talk to him, or email him as I have. This council must hear from a lot of people.

  16. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 11:05 am

    HiFi, a chance for the community to “become informed,” really? You think the community will get any more information today than they did before?

  17. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Yeah I could try that I guess, except I am someone they didn’t listen to in person. Do you think I should be optimistic about an email?

  18. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 11:07 am

    And Joel, Exemplary (your word) mayors don’t hang out with hookers at Samoa Beach, do they?

  19. July 1, 2011 at 11:08 am

    The “conservatives” have already left for their fine 4th of July extended weekend at their fine vacation home at the lake or in the mountains. It is the poor schmucks who are working today and throughout the weekend, not the bosses.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  20. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Let’s ask Jager if he approved the firing of Garr because he was afraid Garr would make sure to follow up on the hooker incident

  21. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 11:13 am

    Sorry Pattycakes, but what good does it do to bring up a divisive rumor now? Don’t we have on our plates?

  22. The Big Picture
    July 1, 2011 at 11:17 am

    I thought it was those “new-fangled e-mails” Jagger didn’t use (permanent record) now it’s newspapers too (permanent record). The only safe place for scoundrels are closed-sessions where Tyson can announce the firing of the police chief without indication on the agenda, without prior council input or public notice.

    If ANY political outsider had any one of Tyson’s fiscal imbroglios they’d be tarred and feathered.

    These folks have enjoyed a free ride from local media forever, you have to wonder what they’re so afraid of from the TS.

    If they had ANYTHING on Garr, it would have been all over the headlines for days.

  23. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Mielke go fuck yourself you self-righteous shitbag. They fired our police chief, a man with wide and enthusiastic support throughout the city and they won’t explain why. But you, oh you the fucking concern troll are worried about nasty comments directed at the assholes who are fucking our city over.

  24. robash141
    July 1, 2011 at 11:21 am

    Mike Newman is one of those dudes who no matter how well dressed or impeccably groomed he might be still looks kind of dirty and seedy. He’s just not capable of hiding his true character.

  25. omglollmfao
    July 1, 2011 at 11:34 am

    The Times-Standard quoted HH today in their editorial and now HH is quoting the same editorial from the Times-Standard. It reminds me of the Bush admin tactic of giving info to the NY Times then quoting the NY Times as supporting their agenda. It’s a sad commentary when a newspaper (news? really?) quotes a blog (any blog) that has no accountability. And now HH quotes a paper that has stooped to the level of a blog with no accountability. No different than Karl Rove. And that’s not a good thing. Crap.

  26. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 11:37 am

    The rumourmongering with regard to Jager is just as inappropriate and unfair as the rumourmongering with regard to Nielsen. Ask yourself this: If you heard a scandalous rumour about Nielsen, or Larry Glass, or Linda Atkins and this rumour was supposedly based on the say-so of a prostitute and a couple of unnamed police officers, and nothing at all had been proven, would you nonetheless believe the rumour and go around repeating it? If the ruumour was about you or one of your friends or family members, would you think that it was appropriate for people to be peddling that rumour on the blogs, repeating it over and over again?

    Those who insist on trafficing in these kinds of unproven and potentially slanderous rumours are discrediting themselves and to some extent discrediting their overall point of view on this firing of the Police Chief. That’s unfortunate for those who share that point of view. If you can’t recognize the wrongness of repeating these salacious rumours, can you at least recognize how counterproductive it is?

  27. insider
    July 1, 2011 at 11:38 am

    joel I hope you can see how Tyson and Jager have alienated the people in this town. We’re angry normal decorum in going evaporate. Franks love of third street workers is fair game for someone who’s a boy scount tooper leader.

  28. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 11:43 am

    “They fired our police chief, a man with wide and enthusiastic support throughout the city…”

    I would go fuck myself, but I’d rather act constructively at the moment. The question is, do you want to bellyache with like-minded people on a blog, or try to change things?

    And yes, Insider, I can see how “Tyson and Jager [and the City Counci} have alienated the people in this town.” That is one of the few facts that I am sure about in this mess.

  29. Look Before Leaping
    July 1, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    Joel Mielke says:
    July 1, 2011 at 11:43 am

    “The question is, do you want to bellyache with like-minded people on a blog, or try to change things?”

    Thoughtful action is preceded by thought and discussion. Impulse “tries to change things” without discussion. Joel, you are not too smart for a smug cartoonist.

  30. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    omglollmfao says:
    July 1, 2011 at 11:34 am
    “The Times-Standard quoted HH today”

    You have the quote handy? I couldn’t find it.

  31. Frank Rizzo
    July 1, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    “…public support noticeably absent..” as opposed to the what, 75 people out of 18,000 that are complaining about it?
    And how about the Eureka Police Officers Association? Not a word. Oh, yeah, that’s right. They are all minions of the Harpham regime. Hilarious. Cue the Plain Jane personal attack in 3, 2, 1..

  32. Not a "Good German"
    July 1, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Joel Mielke says:
    July 1, 2011 at 10:19 am

    “It’s wrong to characterize our Mayor as anything other than an exemplary citizen with the best of intentions.”

    Lock step, never criticize the mayor, obey, be an obedient citizen. You would have made a “good German”, Joel. What a stooge!!

  33. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Bring out the clowns, right and left.

  34. Smart 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Joel, you are too well known to project such ignorance on a public Blog. You should turn in your icon to Herald and go back to Wabash.

  35. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    Franks love of third street workers is fair game for someone who’s a boy scount tooper leader.

    It would be…IF it was a proven fact, rather than a nasty, unproven rumour being peddled by anonymous commenters.

  36. Smart 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Frank’s weaknesses need not be exaggerated by libel. Hyperbole only distracts from the real inadequacies of the current council and mayor.

  37. Ed
    July 1, 2011 at 12:37 pm

    good for Joel for trying to be reasonable in the face of the disgust for their city’s politics. He’s using his name and waiting for an explanation which is more than most can or will do.

  38. Smart 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Criticizing people for what Joel charactorizes as “bellyache with like-minded people on a blog” is really about shutting down dissent. Which plays right into Frank and Dave Tyson’s hand. Not very “reasonable”.

  39. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Meanwhile, City Councilman Mike Newman tells the North Coast Journal this week that the “vast majority of Eurekans” support the firing.

    He took a poll? Or he’s just assuming or engaging in wishful thinking and/or damage control spin? I’m pretty sure it’s one of the latter items.

    The truth is that at this point no one knows for sure how “the vast majority of Eurekans” feel about this firing, unless someone really has had a scientifically valid poll conducted by a reputable polling outfit.

    By the way, I think having a reputable polling outfit conduct such a poll would be an excellent idea. The survey question might look something like this:

    (1) Do you support or oppose the recent decision by Eureka City Manager Dave Tyson to fire Eureka Police Chief Garr Nielsen? Support / Oppose / No Opinon.

    I strongly suspect that such a poll would show that a sizeable majority (or at least a strong plurality, allowing for the fact that some folks will answer “don’t have an opinion”) will turn out to be opposed to Nielsen’s firing.

    Here are some other questions that would be interesting to ask in that poll:

    (2) How would you rate Garr Nielsen’s overall performance as Eureka’s Chief of Police: Very good, good, fair, poor, or very poor.

    (3) Do you think the level of professionalism and responsiveness to the community has improved, declined, or stayed about the same during Garr Nielsen’s tenure as police chief?

    (4) Would you prefer that the City hire a new police chief who already works or has worked within the department, or would you prefer that the City hires someone from outside the department?

    (5) How would you rate Dave Tyson’s overall performance as Eureka City Manager: Very good, good, fair, poor, or very poor.

    (6) How would you rate the overall performance of [Council member]: Very good, good, fair, poor, or very poor.

    I can think of lots of other questions where it would be interesting to hear where “the vast majority of Eureka residents” stand, but you get the idea.

  40. High Finance
    July 1, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Sorry cupcake, I know Mike Newman well and he is neither arrogant or dumb. But you are childish for demeaning people who disagree with you.

    And for those of you who are spreading false allegations against Frank ? You are not qualified to tie his shoes. He is a better man than you creeps.

    Mike has every bit a right to say the majority of Eurekans support the council as any of you who say the majority of Eurekans hate this. Tra is right, nobody knows because no poll has been taken. And even if a poll was taken today it would be irrelevant because the public has only heard one side of the story.

  41. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    …even if a poll was taken today it would be irrelevant because the public has only heard one side of the story.

    Gotta disagree with you on this one HiFi. The “other side of the story” that says that Nielsen was a poor police chief has been widely aired for four years now. EPD officers spoke during public comment in the past, urging the city council and the city manager not to renew Nielsen’s contract and giving their reasons. Just yesterday Murl Harpham gave an interview to KSLG in which he defended the pre-Nielsen era and criticized what he saw a a breakdown in the chain of command under Nielsen. Four out of the five city council members (all but Ciarabellini) have commented on whether or not they supported the decision to fire Nielsen. People have heard plenty of opinions on both sides, and presumably will hear even more at today’s “special meeting” of the city council and, I suspect also at the next regularly-scheduled city council. A grand jury looked into numerous allegations of misconduct and poor performance by the Chief, and reported its findings. And people have their own experience of the last four years (and the years before that) upon which to form their beliefs

    So while the exact reasons for Tyson’s decision to fire the Chief can’t be known with 100% certainty by anyone other than Tyson himself (which in my opinion is probably a lucky thing for Tyson!), Eureka residents do have a fair amount of information upon which to base their opinions about the Chief and therefore a poll would not be irrelvant at all. While it’s true that an opinion poll would not tell us whether the firing was justified or not, it certainly would tell us whether most people believe it was justified or not — which as a practical matter is what actually counts in politics. In any event, asking the public how they feel about items (2) – (6) would certainly be valid, and quite relevant as we go forward.

    It seems to me that some folks want to assert that most Eurekans don’t care or don’t have an opinion, or that most Eurekans support the firing and that it’s only a tiny minority who are upset about it, but for some reason they would rather not have those things measured — perhaps for fear of finding out that those who support the firing are in fact in the minority on this issue? I say go ahead and poll it, and then poll it again in a couple of months in the event that any new information has come out or in case attitudes have changed.

  42. July 1, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    The “vocal minority” was in the majority at the meeting.

  43. July 1, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Just because a good Catholic boy has a little weakness for ‘the Ladies’, how could we fault him? Poor misunderstood Franky. Maybe that’s why he seeks comfort there?
    The rumor, by the way, comes down from some pretty reliable sources, not prone to exageration. Make of it what you will. Frank would NOT be the first.

    Hide, Frank, hide! The ‘Radical Progressives are coming to get you! moohoowahahaha (evil laugh)

  44. SmokeMonster
    July 1, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    Joel M is HH’s version of D. Tyson,control freak who is never wrong.
    Funny you mention clowns since your icon looks like a fat clown face of yourself,guess you’re leading this parade

  45. Smart 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Joel is like Hi Fi and Cheney. If you point out their flawed logic, they start calling names. That’s all they have. Ideology, poor critical thinking skills, and at last resort, namecalling.

  46. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    For anyone who expects EPOA or cops to speak up, you have got to be kidding, Their jobs are on the line because Murl says he is going to make changes as HE sees fit.

  47. Anon
    July 1, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    It is easy enough to find out if the comments about Jager are true. Do a civil gran Jury complaint like was done on the chief. Subpoena Tyson, Jager, Murl, the ex-chief, POP cops. They found nothing on the chief but they will here.

  48. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    Come on guys! Joel picks at me too but but that doesn’t make him like HiFi and neither of them are like Cheney. Posting nasty rumors about what elected officials do on their own time serves no purpose, but does make you look as nasty as the lowlifes at the Mirror and Above the Law and supplies ammunition to smear the Herald. It’s funny how many people get upset over an angry GFY but have no problem with spreading nasty false rumors.

  49. elhomeslice
    July 1, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    A public servant says “I just don’t want to discuss it with you right now.” Since when does an elected politician get to pick and choose when to answer the public’s questions? Regardless of the issue, he must be transparent and answer questions.
    The next time I speak to a police officer I will gladly say ” I just don’t want to discuss it with you right now.”

  50. Fact Checker
    July 1, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    From the TS
    Council approves Nielsen firing
    The Times-Standard
    Posted: 07/01/2011 03:09:13 PM PDT

    The Eureka City Council voted 4-1 today, with Councilwoman Linda Atkins dissenting, to approve the firing of former Police Chief Garr Nielsen.

    Nielsen was fired without cause June 24 by City Manager David Tyson, who cited “differences in management styles.” Today’s special meeting, called with 25 hours notice, was attended by about 60 people, with roughly half of them addressing the council during the public comment period preceding the closed session.

    At the conclusion of the closed session, interim city attorney Andy Stunich also reported that the council voted unanimously to affirm the appointment of EPD Capt. Murl Harpham as interim police chief.

  51. Samrt 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Sorry PJ. Joel tends to call names when people call him on his flawed logic. He does not share the same ideology as Cheney but his debating skills are similar.

  52. Smart 5th Grader
    July 1, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    oops typo. I like it when people have nothing else to do than light one up for a typo.

  53. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    EKA City Council Affirms Nielsen Firing
    Hank Sims / Today @ 3:26 p.m. /

    “About 100 people gathered in Eureka City Hall chambers for the emergency meeting called yesterday. Somewhere over 30 spoke, with about three-quarters of those expressing support for Nielsen and/or calling for the removal of City Manager Dave Tyson.”

  54. robash141
    July 1, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    Just when I thought I couldn’t get any more disgusted with this situation I found that revolting bigot Andy Stunich is now their errand boy. That guy has to go. I deeply resent every penny of my taxes that goes into his pocket.

  55. Anon
    July 1, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    For Tyson not to have dotted his i’s and crossed his t’s BEFORE the firing he musta had a hard-on bad to get the chief outta there. Probably salivated about it that whole day. Shame that’s the kind of man pulling the strings. I’m sure his intention was humiliation, but this makes him look far worse. Good thing he’s the emperor.

  56. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    Who is Andy Stunich? What position does he hold?

  57. The Monitor
    July 1, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Tyson got the OK from the four lynch happy council members so off they go, whistling while they work. What a crock. Interesting definition of democracy in action.

  58. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:14 pm

    The real disgrace of today’s meeting was the smug, condescending how-dare-you-peons-question-us look on the face of Newman. I wonder if he had a few pops at lunch, last time I saw him look like that was on election night.

  59. July 1, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    So very true 4:14. He creeped me out.

  60. Joel Mielke
    July 1, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    “Posting nasty rumors … serves no purpose, but does make you look as nasty as the lowlifes at the Mirror and Above the Law…”

    Well said, Plain Jane. On the other hand, it feels good to have detractors like Smoke Monster and Smart-5th-Grader.

    Thanks to everyone who showed up, and especially to those who got up and spoke.

  61. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    I attended the meeting today with a neighbor. The neighbor is new to town and asked who Newman was and that he looked like Hitler. Really! The neighbor does not have a computer so it could not have been from reading blogs, where it has been mentioned before.

  62. robash141
    July 1, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    Andy Stunich is now apparently the interim city attorney. That’s the guy from whom Tyson is taking his legal advice. Based on my observations of Mr.Stunich I believe he is a right wing ideological fanatic, ethically very sketchy and most importantly stupider than a bag of hammers. All Garr has to do is get a lawyer smarter than Stunich (which is pretty much all of them) and he can take the City of Eureka to the cleaners . Tax Payers of Eureka get ready to bend over and spread em.

  63. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    Well finally the official vote is public. Makes the recall a little simpler. I would have given the mayor a pass, but it the rumor is true he is guilty of moral turpitude and maybe should be swept out with all the other trash.

  64. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Stupid as a bag of hammers—seems to be a job requirement here in the city of Eureka.

  65. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    That seems to be true of the entire right wing, 4:47. Why do right wing puppet masters prefer dumb puppets to smart puppets? Is it because the dumb ones say what they’re told to say and don’t know they’re lying?

  66. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    It is interesting that the prostitution has gone on for so long on third street. Someone had to allow it to go on for so long. Turn a blind eye. Or participate. Watch which cops get fired for knowing too much.

  67. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Does this mean that any police officer that liked Garr Neilsin and his style will get sacked?

  68. July 1, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    If they don’t quit.

  69. Kurt
    July 1, 2011 at 5:14 pm

    I wonder what the grown-ups are doing……

  70. Anon
    July 1, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    Hope the council members and Tyson have a nice stress-free weekend.It might be their last for awhile. Stay tuned.

  71. July 1, 2011 at 5:44 pm

    I’d bet there are at least 10 resume’s either being updated or actually in the mail from oficers right now. Who loses? We do, of course.

    Today’s action is just another instance of the Clown Council IGNORING the will of the people. The Clowns show NO respect, do NOT listen, and could give a sh*t less what we think. The Recall should be interesting.
    Time to go, Dave!

  72. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Yes the vocal minority was in the majority, but it was 1300 and most working people actually had jobs. Some seemed sincere, some seemed whacko.

  73. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Exactly as I predicted yesterday: If a lot of people turned out to speak in favor of Nielsen and against his firing, the defenders of Tyson and the city council Gang of Four would complain that “the real people” couldn’t be there because they were working. Of course holding the “special meeting” during work hours wasn’t up to Nielsen’s supporters… but we wouldn’t want to let facts and logic get in the way of your predetermined spin.

    Wonder what their excuse will be when plenty more Nielsen supporters (and only a handful who support the actions of Tyson and the Gang of Four) show up at the next regular evening city council meeting? I’m sure they’ll come up with something.

  74. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    Why don’t we stop calling each other bad names on this blog?

    You might have noticed that there was hardly any name-calling at City Hall today but everybody still made their point of view perfectly clear.

  75. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    I wouldn’t call it a lot of people! Less than on Black Friday wihen larry and his team called a surprise Fiday night meeting to give Nielsen his 5 years contract! but Larry/HH wants to forget about that one.

  76. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Anonymous 7:02 This is not a game here. We are talking about our safety. When we citizens are put at risk and our quality of life is ruined this no joke. Should everyone brown nose Tyson because he has a stranglehold on the town? We are ignored and made fun of by Tyson and his crew. Would you be so sweet if it was your life, family or business that was put in jeopardy because of a few disgruntled employees that got demoted? This is revenge by a few that don’t want to lose control. Sick.

  77. skippy
    July 1, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    After the meeting the crowd dispersed; supporters and detractors alike not knowing more of the sacking-of-the-sacked than they did before. Ryan, Hank, Andrew, Thaddeus, off to meet their deadlines.

    Meanwhile, volunteering citizens making the City a better place for the 4th’s celebrations unknowingly came together: Heidi preparing plans for the Jefferson School’s table, HCOE/Glen Paul’s vocational aide, Laurie, tirelessly pulling weeds from the City’s 2nd and H curb and planter, Kelly and Kalla Martin— with family teenagers in tow– civically sweating the same for our Gazebo. Robert, sprucing up the colorful Persians at Humboldt Carpet; Jonathon and Marguerite preparing the opening for Youth Ability’s coffee shop in the Vance. Charles Douglas? Manhandling the electrical cable for the former has-been Has Beans, keeping an ear to the wire and predictable pulse on the community. Les toodles by on her bike, late to secretary her community meeting yet stopping to talk. Ah Humboldt, still friendly and beautiful in so many ways.

    Skippy’s note to blogging self:

    A Word to the Whys
    Ups and downs and in and outs
    Forevers and nevers and whys.
    Befores and afters, dos and don’ts,
    Farewells and hellos and goodbyes.
    Life is a string of perhapses,
    A medley of whens and so whats.
    We rise on our yeses and maybes,
    Then fall on our nos and our buts.

  78. Down the Road
    July 1, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Hi Fi and Tra you are boring, boring and boring. Don’t you read
    the law. Don’t you read the Brown Act. Your buddy Mike Newman
    broke the Brown Act. Ask him what he said at a dinner the other
    night to Lance Matsens cousin. To say he is smart is like saying
    worms have IQs. His game is alcohol and as usual white men
    with forked tongue let it all hang out; This city council is in
    violation of the Brown Act. Like all civil laws we the people have
    to have the money to sue to defend our rights.

  79. Long Time Eurekan
    July 1, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    It was interesting that Murl and another officer were there. Fred Moore, from Redwood Capital Bank, was also there with his boys just in front of Murl and the officers. His boys were going bang bang pow pow, perhaps emulating how the police will now be able to behave.

    Before Garr, the citizens were afraid of the police and only a handful had protection. Are we headed back in this direction again? I hope not, as the department earned a great deal of respect within the past few years under Garr. Garr accomplished that in the face of a handful of people tried to take him out with all kinds of salacious gossip and intimidating behavior. The grand Jury cleared him of all the charges. The same sure can’t be said of Tyson. If the people behind those actions are put in charge again, we are all in trouble. It won’t take much to destroy the credibility that had been established by Garr.

    The City Council has handled this incredibly badly so far and I have little confidence that they have any appreciation for the public good in this situation let alone why transparency is necessary in public office.

  80. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    It’s too bad that you find me boring, but believe it or not I do not consider it my duty to keep you entertained.

    But if you do have evidence that Newman, or other members of the council broke the Brown act, then please do take it to the Grand Jury and/or whateve other appropriate enforcement agency there may be, and see that they follow through with an investigation.

    In the meantime, feel free to share what that evidence is, because I would be interested in hearing about it, I am certainly no fan of either Newman or the other three councilmembers who make up the council majority.

    Here, I’ll help you get started:

    “Mike Newman broke the Brown Act by ___________”

    Fill in the blank with the specific action that Newman took, and if you don’t mind, please specify what part of the Brown act this was a violation of.

    When you’re done posting it here, write it all down and submit it the Humboldt County Grand Jury, and/or whatever other agency is the appropriate enforcement body for the Brown Act (I’m not sure offhand who that is, but I bet a lawyer could tell you and I bet one who is friendly to the progressive faction in Eureka city politics would be happy to tell you for free, provide you with some advice on how to proceed, and maybe even help you prepare the complaint).

  81. Sylvia
    July 1, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Here are the grand Jury findings on Nielsen:

    Grand Jury Report 2009-LJ-01
    Complaints against Eureka Police Chief
    (Note: One member of the Grand Jury, whose name was mentioned in the complaint documents, was excluded from participation in the investigation leading to this report.)
    Required Responses
    Since the Grand Jury may only require responses from government officials or agencies, and may not require responses from individuals in lower-level positions of public employment, the Jury is not asking for any responses to this report.
    Background
    The investigation resulting in this report was initiated by complaints filed with the Grand Jury by two local citizens. In the course of its investigation, the Grand Jury received testimony from each of the complainants, the Eureka Police Chief, the Eureka City Manager, a member of the Eureka City Council, staff members in the Finance Department of the City of Eureka, employees of the Eureka Police Department, and other citizens of Eureka.
    The Grand Jury also reviewed numerous documents related to the complaints including employment contracts, conflict of interest disclosure statements, and communications from the California Commission on Peace Officers Standards and Training. The Jury also reviewed correspondence from the Office of County Counsel and from the City Manager.
    Additional documents were provided to the Grand Jury by the Eureka Police Department and the City of Eureka. The Police Department provided its Policy and Procedure Manual, annual Budget, Employee Recruitment and Selection Policy, Personnel Complaint Policy, and Employee Discipline Policy. The City of Eureka provided its Standards of Employee Conduct, Zero Tolerance Policy, and Prevention of Violence in the Workplace Policy. The Jury also reviewed documents provided by citizens giving testimony before the Jury.
    Report
    The complaints filed against the Eureka Police Chief allege multiple instances of official misconduct including the unauthorized use of City property, seeking and receiving improper compensation for professional and/or personal expenses, engaging in illegal hiring practices, abuse of authority, misrepresentation of Peace Officer certification status, retaliation against a Department employee, filing an incomplete conflict of interest statement, and sharing information inappropriately with professional colleagues. The Grand Jury investigated each of these allegations.

    As a result of its investigation, the Grand Jury found the allegations of unauthorized use of City property, improper compensation, illegal hiring practices, abuse of authority, and certification status misrepresentation to be without merit. On the basis of sworn testimony, the Grand Jury found that the allegation of retaliation had been previously resolved by the City of Eureka. The accusation of filing an incomplete conflict of interest statement was found to be based on an omission that has subsequently been corrected, and the Grand Jury could not substantiate the allegation of inappropriate sharing of information.
    Having completed its investigation of these complaints, and having now reported the objective results of its investigation, the Grand Jury believes it is important to briefly delve deeper into what it sees as the circumstances and underlying issues that provided the backdrop for the series of accusations made in the complaints, and which appear to have affected the working environment in the Eureka Police Department following the appointment of the current Police Chief.
    Upon his initial appointment, the Police Chief was given firm and specific direction by both the City Council and the City Manager to implement significant changes in the Police Department and to attempt to reform what was seen as the existing and historical culture within the Department. Based on the information it gathered during its investigation, the Grand Jury found that many local citizens and government officials perceived the historical culture in the Eureka Police Department to be one that enabled the self-interests of some Department employees, which negatively affected the Department’s ability to meet the legitimate needs of citizens in the community. One can question whether this perception is accurate, but there is little doubt that the perception existed.
    The new Chief accepted the direction he was given and proceeded immediately, some say too quickly and aggressively, toward making changes in the Department. The Grand Jury believes the tension that has resulted from the Chief’s actions is the predictable outcome when a strong force for change in an organization meets a strong resistance to that change from within the organization. The resulting antagonism between the Chief and those in the Department who do not want to see the changes implemented is predictable and could possibly have been reduced if communications among all those involved had been better. Given the opportunity, many whose actions have contributed to the current tension in the Police Department might have behaved differently and the best option now is for everyone involved to move forward as amicably and productively as possible.
    The Grand Jury finds that the situation is improving and that the center of antagonism against the Police Chief has been reduced to a small group of employees who may never come to terms with some of the changes our municipal leaders are seeking within the Police Department. The Grand Jury is encouraged by its observation that most of the employees in the Department, particularly more recently hired employees, see the changing culture in the Department as positive change. Most Department employees are focused on the professional performance of their jobs and want to see an end to the current tension. Recognizing that many citizens in the community also see the evolving culture change in the Department as positive change, the Grand Jury encourages

    everyone in the Department and everyone responsible for the management and oversight of the Department to continue to seek ways to move beyond the current tension, to work cooperatively to create and foster an environment of constant improvement and accountability, and to refocus
    the attention of everyone in the Department on its fundamental mission to serve and protect the citizens of our community.
    Findings and Recommendations
    Rules governing the Grand Jury require that identified government officials and/or agencies file official responses to any Findings and/or Recommendations made by the Jury. The Grand Jury is not authorized to require responses to its Findings and/or Recommendations from individual citizens or persons in lower-level positions of public employment. Consequently, not being able to request responses from all individuals involved in this investigation, the Grand Jury makes the following findings, but is not requiring responses to any of them.
    1. Since the appointment of the current Eureka Police Chief, there has been, and to some degree there continues to be, a tense working environment in the Eureka Police Department affecting officers, command staff, and other Department employees.

    2. The primary source of the current tension within the Eureka Police Department is the conflict between changes being implemented by the Chief, the manner in which they are being implemented, and the resistance to those changes by some employees in the Department.

    3. Better direction and communication among the City Council, City Manager, Police Chief, and employees of the Police Department could have prevented or reduced some of the current anxiety and antagonism.

    4. Everyone involved in the current conflict has a shared responsibility for its cause and for seeking ongoing resolution. This responsibility extends from the Eureka City Council, to the City Manager, to the Police Chief, and to all involved employees of the Eureka Police Department.

  82. July 1, 2011 at 8:38 pm

    On 2/15/11, the Eureka Police Department launched an on-line survey on crime and policing in the City of Eureka. The survey was intended for those who live, work, and/or play within the city limits of Eureka.

    When asked if they would characterize the service they received from EPD as being professional, competent and helpful, 74% of respondents agreed or strongly agreed this was true, 20% disagreed, and 6% stated they were neutral.

    88% of respondents felt EPD’s response time during calls for service met or exceeded their reasonable expectations. 10% felt EPD’s response was either too slow, or reported officers never came/responded.

    Respondents were asked to rate their satisfaction with the overall level of service they personally received from EPD. 69% stated they were satisfied or very satisfied, 22% were dissatisfied/very dissatisfied, and 9% were neutral.

    When asked how well EPD does in providing services to the community overall, 70% of respondents rated EPD’s services as good or excellent, 19% rated EPD’s services as fair or neutral, and 12% felt they were poor.

    Respondents were asked their perception of the importance of the Department’s recently expanded Problem Oriented Policing Unit (POP). While 12% of the survey takers stated they were unfamiliar with the POP program, 80% of the remaining respondents felt the program was important or very important, 4% felt it was unimportant or very unimportant, and 4% felt neutral about it. (90% of the respondents familiar with the program felt the POP Program was important or very important).

    http://www.ci.eureka.ca.gov/civica/press/display.asp?layout=1&Entry=395

  83. Long Time Eurekan
    July 1, 2011 at 8:49 pm

    That’s why he was fired Mike. If you’re competent you become a threat to the kind of people who are on the council. They own the City, or at least the people who control them do. It was pretty clear that Garr was a threat to Tyson. Tyson wouldn’t have done what he did unless he knew that the council would protect him. It is going to be amusing to see how they stonewall this and then try to make up reasons as each successive one fails to hold water. The coverup is always more interesting and damaging than the crime. Keep digging.

  84. Thorstein Veblen
    July 1, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    The Brown Act is from Jerry Brown, our current governor, from when he was Secretary of State, before he was governor last time. Basically, it means elected officials have to decide things in public. A good law, both in letter and spirit.

  85. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 9:31 pm

    The Brown Act, officially known as the Ralph M. Brown Act, was an act of the California State Legislature, authored by Assemblymember Ralph M. Brown and passed in 1953, that guaranteed the public’s right to attend and participate in meetings of local legislative bodies.

  86. Larry Glass
    July 1, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Anonymous says: July 1, 2011 at 7:24 pm
    (on Black Friday wihen larry and his team called a surprise Fiday night meeting to give Nielsen his 5 years contract! but Larry/HH wants to forget about that one.)
    Selective memory there 7:24 it was called by the city manager and he set the whole thing up to embarrass Garr and run him off. It back fired because Chris, Polly and I where a majority on the council and backed Garr 100% and the changes, when Mike & Jeff saw which way the wind was blowing they jumped on board.
    This was just Tyson first attempt to defeat Garr and get him to quit. He dogged him the whole time he was Chief.

  87. tenth street dreamer
    July 1, 2011 at 9:44 pm

    You see they ‘think’ they own the city, arrogance of power. They go to the chamber meetings and hear their good old buddies tell them they are doing just fine and the ‘whole’ city is behind them. Well dave your addition is not so good. Channel 3 caught you taking names and keeping score on your yellow pad.. How did that count work out for you dave? So who do you use as your enforcer and how soon will there be a knock at the door, like Syria or Argentina. But we are civilized here, I forgot. Just run the malcontents out like the Chinese and the local Natives. And surely don’t write about it in the local paper, like Bret Harte did many years ago. The politics don’t change much over the years in Humboldt County, just the names.

  88. Jerry Brown
    July 1, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    Yikes, I’m busted.

  89. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 9:55 pm

    I keep thinking about that precious zoo. Where there was poppa, momma and two baby bears. Eureka was going to build them a larger and better enclosure. It would have cost around $600 to board the parent bears while their new enclosure was built. To save the money they instead killed the momma and poppa bears. So now family’s view one surviving(now old) baby bear. Yes folks, the same stupid, backward and provincial bunch still at the helm further screwing things up. They have a death grip on the city and they ain’t letten go. At least not till the whole city is turned into the total hog wallow they have been striving for. Who would have thought that there was a place as sorry as this on the West Coast of California. Such a physically beautiful place with an ugly past that a few ugly locals want to perpetuate. When competent people come to town they soon find out they are not welcome. Such a shame.

  90. Captain Incredilous
    July 1, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    Cops supposedly receive one single allegation by a heroin addict hooker that Jäger was a customer ONE time and now idiots on this blog want a grand jury investigation!!! Unbelievable. Oh, and if this was kept quiet and reported to the Chief, how the hell is this being spread across Heraldo’s blog? Hmmmmmm, Garr undoubtedly heard, Tyson probably heard but Tyson definitely isn’t posting this slander. Let me take an educated guess here…the pop officer told his/her boss, Garr, as a CYA thing, Garr told his buddy Larry, Larry is Heraldo, and now Larry Aka Heraldo the petty little prick is spreading this BS out of petty spite. Doesn’t takes rocket scientist to figure this one out…of course this post will probably be deleted…

  91. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    Is one time OK?

  92. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    Pretty funny that captain would seem to know it was a single allegation by a heroin addict hooker, which I haven’t seen posted anywhere! #1 Tyson is the ultimate authority, being Garr’s boss and able to fire him and all, and that #2 Of all the people that knew about it, everyone kept quiet except Garr? Incredulous for sure, but I guess you are confirming it happened.

  93. Long Time Eurekan
    July 1, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    elhomeslice says:
    July 1, 2011 at 3:42 pm
    A public servant says “I just don’t want to discuss it with you right now.” Since when does an elected politician get to pick and choose when to answer the public’s questions? Regardless of the issue, he must be transparent and answer questions.
    The next time I speak to a police officer I will gladly say ” I just don’t want to discuss it with you right now.”

    Frank’s statement implies that he will discuss it “at some time.” The longer he takes, the more things he will have to discuss. This isn’t going to go well……. for Frank.

  94. pattycakes
    July 1, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    Oh and not only a single allegation but a single incident. Whoever you are I ‘d bet money that Garr wasn’t the one to tell you.

  95. anon
    July 1, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Whats wrong with Larry spreading gossip out of spite? Tyson fired Garr out of spite.

  96. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 10:18 pm

    Captain Incredilous if the single (supposed) allegation were true that is really creepy. Tyson may be posting slander, who knows, but he doesn’t really have to. He can slice them and dice them with his sheep council puppets.

  97. Heroin addicted prostitute
    July 1, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Eureka is a wonderful place to live and work. And I appreciate all input from City officials.

  98. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Note to self: Never let Captain Incredilous in on a secret.

  99. tra
    July 1, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    What a disgusting display of anonymous rumourmongering, based on incredibly flimsy evidence, taken second or third-hand from about the least-credible source imaginable.

    You folks ought to go ahead and start your own “abovethelaw” type blog if this is the kind of crap you want to throw around. Perhaps the domain name “belowthelaw.com” is available.

    Or perhaps “thehumboldtmirrorimage.com” if you’re willing to throw a little lame humour and some photoshopped pictures in along with your scurrilous smears.

  100. Plain Jane
    July 1, 2011 at 10:35 pm

    Heraldo didn’t post anything about Jager and hookers and I hope he deletes those who did, including this post.

  101. Long Time Eurekan
    July 1, 2011 at 10:38 pm

    Tra, it was the Cap who put his toe in the water and came out with an alligator attached. The responses are just humor, albeit at Frank’s and Cap’s expense. See “note to self” above. Frank needs smarter friends.

  102. July 1, 2011 at 10:41 pm

    Well, I attended the meeting at City Hall today, have spoken several times, and am still incredulous that this incompetent council completed this action and fired Garr. I realized after listening to many, many speakers over the last ten days, since the previous council meeting, that many of us on the west side have had similar experiences with the police-prior to Garr Nielsen. There is a great deal of commonality in their remarks; the police dispatcher argued with callers, said it was too dangerous, they didn’t come there anymore, it’s like a war zone over there-and on and on. I believe that’s exactly what happened, pre Garr Nielsen. The Eureka Police Dept. routinely just didn’t do the same job on the West side that they did on the East or other “better” parts of town. But Garr didn’t know that; he was hired from out of this area. He did his job all over the city, and insisted that his officers also do theirs; to us, it was truly amazing. For my family, it was a first from the Eureka Police-they responded, they were professional, they followed up-we have now had four years of a competent Police Chief; it’s sure going to be very difficult to get that genie back in the bottle. Now we are most unlikely to go back to being relegated to third class citizens. Didn’t we pass Measure O for public safety for the whole city? Is there any chance we’ll see any of that $ for actual public safety?

  103. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    He wouldn’t be the first Boy Scout leader to do something sleazy. MSNBC here we come.

  104. anon
    July 1, 2011 at 11:05 pm

    Man if I had a kid in Jager’s troop I’d be switching right about now. And thanking Captain Incredulous.

  105. Anonymous
    July 1, 2011 at 11:09 pm

    amen to that.

  106. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 6:14 am

    The former west side council person Wolford was there to speak glowingly of Tyson and his skill at handling the city. She was a very large reason that everything got so bad on the west side. She was one of those that got into office to approve Block Grant moneys for her pet projects. She is just like Tyson. An administrative pencil pusher that completely ruins a city. She physically ran away from a constituent that asked in person for help with drug dealing in the neighborhood. She is an enemy of the west side. She wormed her way into the Heritage Society to ingratiate herself with members so no one would put up a fuss when she had a historic house bulldozed for her pet project. Many feel that the only reason she ran for the city council seat was to approve the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were needed for this reason, which she did. Ugly cast of characters that brought the west side to it’s lowest of times. Leadership at it’s worst.

  107. roxana
    July 2, 2011 at 6:37 am

    “Just when I thought I couldn’t get any more disgusted with this situation I found that revolting bigot Andy Stunich is now their errand boy. That guy has to go. I deeply resent every penny of my taxes that goes into his pocket.” Ditto. Stunich is a wing-nut, i know though first hand experience, i too am appalled that this freak is getting paid w/ public funds. Disgraceful.

  108. roxana
    July 2, 2011 at 6:43 am

    Wolford, whose last council campaign was run by Cole Machado, the child pornographer. Small town.

  109. sloopy
    July 2, 2011 at 8:11 am

    Y’all remember that weird POP prostitution sting a month or six weeks ago? It was weird because the Times Standard made a big deal about not publishing the John’s name, but made a point to say that all the Johns in the future would have their names published.

    Sloop says “What?”

    The TS has frequently published the names of Johns in past 3rd street prostitution stings, like the guy who owns a local business for example. So why in this one case was the rule changed to “no publish” and then back to the usual publish in the future?

    Just who was this person who got caught in the sting a month or six weeks ago? The Times Standard and the local LE need to fess up about this. The public has the right to know. Sloopy wants to know.

    If this info is not forthcoming we will know that the TS is in the bag.

    – sloopy

  110. Plain Jane
    July 2, 2011 at 8:25 am

    This must be what you are referring to, Sloopy. No names of any of those arrested.

    http://www.times-standard.com/ci_18103287?IADID=Search-www.times-standard.com-www.times-standard.com

    Compared to this one where only prostitutes were arrested, their names, ages and drug habits listed:

    http://www.times-standard.com/ci_16603439?IADID=Search-www.times-standard.com-www.times-standard.com

    What’s up with that?

  111. Down the Road
    July 2, 2011 at 8:31 am

    Don’t forget Mary Beth and her White Paper. She acted like
    she was going to help the West Side with the crime problem.
    Got a committee together, let them put this White Paper together
    and then did nothing. She is a two-faced, none of them pretty,
    sorry imitation of a caring person.

  112. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 8:35 am

    Thank you David Tyson and the four reasonable councilpersons. This was long overdue.

  113. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 8:48 am

    You mean sorry Imitation of a woman.

  114. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 8:51 am

    Yeah. Thanks David Tyson for being a a despicable manager prodding your sheep council into costing the taxpayer big bucks.

  115. robash141
    July 2, 2011 at 9:03 am

    When I call Andy Stunich “a revolting bigot” I am not being the least bit hyperbolic This guy wrote numerous articles in the old Eureka Reporter which were just straight-up hate mongering against all Muslims. (just google it and see for yourself ) I called him out at the time and recant nothing. If I were a Muslim and lived in Eureka I would be very upset that this unabashed bigot is being paid through my tax dollars. Hell I’m not Muslim and I’m still pissed!!
    Even before this latest escapade Stunich needed to be booted out the door on his Ku Klux Kann

  116. July 2, 2011 at 9:09 am

    PJ,

    There’s no byline on either of the T-S “reports” you linked to. That suggests they were lightly edited EPD press releases, or that the T-S sent a transcriber to jot down the public police log.

  117. Plain Jane
    July 2, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Why the different treatment, Mitch? It is highly suspicious.

  118. sloopy
    July 2, 2011 at 9:15 am

    PJ,

    I think the incident I am referring to happened in early June, maybe 9th or 10th. The story mentioned one prostitute who was “not arrested” pending her providing information on the third street scene. It has either been scrubbed or relegated to the archives. Maybe I can find a print version of it.

    Anyway Johns have long been published in the TS. Here is one such: http://www.times-standard.com/localnews/ci_13213508

    Maybe we here in Eureka are experiencing the Sundberg treatment?

    -sloopy

  119. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 9:15 am

    OK Times Standard are you in the bag? Who is the person that is so important that it cannot be let out? You print the name of others that solicit prostitutes. Got to be someone prominent. Just when you think this town can’t get any worse! Wolfords campaign manager a pornographer. No wonder they don’t want Garr around he is way to honorable for this town.

  120. robash141
    July 2, 2011 at 9:15 am

    To make matters worse Andy Stunich is an uber whiny little bitch who trolls the blogs and threatens anyone who says anything bad about him.. Sorry Stunich don’t even bother this time. Your ostensibly working for the Citizens of Eureka now and doing a piss-poor job .He Might as well hide with the rest of them.

  121. High Finance
    July 2, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Hank Sims said “100 people gathered at city hall” ?

    I was watching on channel 10. I froze the picture when the audience was shown & counted heads. Not counting the police officers there in the back for security, I counted 53. There might have been a few more back in the corner out of camera sight.

    The Times Standard said about 30 people spoke and 3/4ths of them were opposed to the firing. Doing the math that means 22 people spoke against it. Folks, this is not a big groundswell this is a small but dedicated (and noisy) group.

  122. High Finance
    July 2, 2011 at 9:21 am

    And thanks PJ, Tra & Joel for speaking up against the worst haters here. They are indeed as bad as the ones at the Mirror and at the former Above the Law blogs.

  123. Mavis from Santa Rosa
    July 2, 2011 at 9:30 am

    My goodness! I used to live in Eureka and I’m very surprised how it must have changed up there. Is it something in the water or the air that has made people become so vulgar and mean spirited? I can understand opposing an issue however the viciuos comments are over the top. I will never wan’t to move to Eureka in the future if the citizens are so aggresive. I do hope I’m just seeing a small portion of it’s citizens in this forum and the rest are more level headed and calm when using thier right to due political proccess.

  124. July 2, 2011 at 9:40 am

    PJ,

    I don’t know. I’m just thinking it wasn’t the T-S treating them differently, it’s that what they had to transcribe was different at the source.

  125. anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Do the police not have a standard operating procedure for booking people?

  126. July 2, 2011 at 9:56 am

    “Can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King Jr. 1991.

  127. robash141
    July 2, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Thanks Mavis , Our quota for concern trolls is already filled..
    .

  128. insider
    July 2, 2011 at 10:08 am

    Frank was never arrested. His name surfaced during an interrogation of a suspect. “A City Councilmen is one of my regulars” or something like that, and then she identified then City Councilman Frank Jager. This information was suppressed by Frank’s long time friend and now acting Chief.

  129. robash141
    July 2, 2011 at 10:08 am

    Stunich didn’t think it was bad manners to write all that bigoted stuff all over the internet. I don’t see why it should be bad manners to call him out now for prevaricating on the public’s dime.

  130. Ed
    July 2, 2011 at 10:19 am

    I am soooooo glad Andy is there to protect us from sharia law and the caliphate.

  131. Captain Incredilous
    July 2, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Man, you guys are serious conspiracy theorists! I’m basing my deductive reasoning on what I’ve previously read on other baseless, nonsensical rants about the alleged Jäger thing and applying a little common sense here. Nothing that I’ve read has suggested any info that somebody heard a story one time from one source…vs. the typical persistent rumors that follow the where there’s smoke there’s fire argument. Point being Chicken Little wants a full blown Grand Jury investigation over what
    sounds to be a single reported allegation from a drug addeled whore…not exactly a reliable source and sounds unprovable to me. Now, if I’m missing some info here somebody please fill me in…sounds like much ado about nothing because from what I hear about Jagers character, this hooker thing sounds way far fetched. And if the cops had found a smoking gun here, no way they could have kept it under wraps…not with EPD’s porous rumor mill. Get a clue.

  132. Captain Incredilous
    July 2, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Should have read: “Nothing that I’ve read has suggested any info that somebody heard any stories more than one time from one source…”

  133. Percy
    July 2, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    “drug addled whore”

    How did your deductive reasoning lead you to this conclusion capn’ Ahole?

  134. SmokeMonster
    July 2, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Percy,all the local prostitutes are drug addicts of one sort or another,this isn’t ‘pretty woman’ wake your naive ass up.
    Now I wouldn’t dismiss her accusations due to her drug use. Police use drug addicts for info all the time to make busts,do you really think they sit around figuring shit out themselves? You think Kalis was a maverick? I think its commonplace for them to act as he is being accused.shaking down tweakers scared of being in jail away from there drugs and banging prostitutes/tweaker women so they don’t go back to jail,its all part of the job for some of them.

  135. High Finance
    July 2, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    The accusation is even flimsier than that. It is some anonymous blogger claims some unnamed cop said some unnamed whore said some city council person was a regular.

    The bloggers who pretend otherwise are slime and beneath contempt.

  136. Mitch
    July 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Hi Fi,

    Here’s a question. I don’t know the answer, so I’m asking for information.

    Did you ever publicly criticize the Above the Law blog?

  137. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Sounds like the Captain is doing a little back peddling here. Got in too deep Cap? Using deductive reasoning? Right.

  138. Percy
    July 2, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    I could really care less what Jagger does on his own time. But I care if he’s given preferential treatment by law enforcement. How hard was it to believe a previous Eureka city councilman would shop lift with a wad of cash in his pocket. Don’t respect the office, respect the person. If he deserves it.

  139. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    Other than Hi Fi you guys are some pathetic examples of the human race

  140. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    The Times Standard said about 30 people spoke and 3/4ths of them were opposed to the firing. Doing the math that means 22 people spoke against it. Folks, this is not a big groundswell this is a small but dedicated (and noisy) group.

    22 people showed and spoke against the firing even though there was hardly any advance notice of the meeting and it was scheduled during work hours and the Friday afternoon of the 4th of July weekend.

    Yesterday you complained that people who supported the firing wouldn’t be able to turn out in large numbers because it was during the work hours, but it wouldn’t occur to you to apply that standard to people who opposed the firing, because of your silly belief that those people must not have jobs.

    You can keep trying to dismiss those oppposed to the actions of Tyson and the council majority as just a few people, but your bias is so obvious when you claim that a large turnout would be meaningless, but when the turnout is, from your point of view, small, then that turnout number is meaningful.

    And if we apply your “logic” to the situation, then the turnout of 22 anti-fiiring speakers (despite the short notice, daytime meeting) means that they represent a “small” group, then that means that the 8 pro-firing speakers represent a “tiny” group. You can’t have it both ways…or another way to put it is that you can have it both ways, but don’t expect to be taken seriously.

  141. High Finance
    July 2, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Yes I have Mitch, here and several times.

    However, I never read it and never even heard of it except here and only after it was gone.

  142. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 1:11 pm

    the “Insider” is a POS liar

  143. High Finance
    July 2, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    I forget to mention one speaker at yesterday’s meeting who made a very good point.

    Garr Nielsen himself, in his role as chief, has to have fired employees “without cause” in the past. It is not uncommon to use that term.

  144. July 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    “has to have fired employees” isn’t necessarily “did.”

  145. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    One thing I’ll agree with HiFi on is his previous comment to the effect that turnout at meetings doesn’t provide irrefutable evidence of where the majority of Eureka residents stand on an issue. One thing that would provide much more solid evidence would be a scientifically valid poll conducted by a legitimate polling outfit. The best thing would be if a local media organization (the Times-Standard being the most obvious candidate) would have such a poll conducted, and report the results. Though no doubt there would be the usual whining about “liberal media bias,” if the poll was conducted properly, many people would take it seriously.

    If no media outlet steps up to the plate and does a poll, then those opposed to Nielsen’s firing could commission such a poll, and though this would obviously lead their detractors to cry “bias,” that doesn’t have to be true — as long as the wording of the questions is fair, the sample is a represents a true cross-section of Eureka residents (or Eureka voters if that’s who they choose to poll), and as long as they use a reputable polling outfit, commit to release all the results no matter what (not just selected ones that back up their position) and fully disclose the methodology and the wording of the questions, then the results could still be entirely valid, and the media would likely accept those results as legitimate and report on them.

    For that matter, the same could hold true of a poll if it were commissioned by the supporters of Tyson and the city council majority — as long as the questions were worded in a fair way, a reputable polling firm was used, they committed to releasing all results whether they were favorable to the poll’s sponsors or not, and as long as the methodology was sound, and so on, then I’d be willing to believe those results, too. (But I strongly suspect that the Tyson / Gang of Four supporters would be afraid to conduct a fair survey of opinion on this matter, or at least wouldn’t commit to releasing the results no matter what they are, because they probably fear that those results would show broad opposition to the firing of Chief Nielsen, and dwindling support for Tyson and the 4 city council members who sided with him on this issue.)

    Of course doing a high-quality poll is not cheap, and for those opposed to the actions of Tyson and the city council majority, they may understandably prefer to put their efforts into a petition drive and grassroots organizing, and perhaps into an actual recall campaign against some or all of the Gang of Four.

    But if I had the money, I would definitely commission a poll before trying to launch an actual recall campaign, both to see if such a campaign had a real chance of success, and to see which councilmembers were most vulnerable. (Newman seems likely to be vulnerable since he only won with a plurality, Brady seems the least likely to be vulnerable since she won with a majority, but the other two are harder to venture an educated guess about because one was appointed and one ran unopposed — and a poll would help sort all that out.)

    In addition, if the results of the poll show, as I think they would, that a majority of Eureka residents disagree with the firing, then publicizing that fact will be very helpful in organizing and fundraising for the recall campaign. People like to be on the winning side, so it’s important to counter the evidence-free spin that folks like Newman and HiFi have been peddling — namely the idea that it’s just a tiny minority who oppose Nielsen’s firing, the way it was handled, and the cost to the city.

    One last note: if someone is going to commission such a poll, they should do so ASAP, while the issue is fresh in peoples’ minds.

  146. Down the Road
    July 2, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    I will try to write for simple minded people. The at will employment
    contract is correct in the fact that you can fire someone at will
    without cause. What is incorrect is that there can be no time
    limit for employment attached to it. The Garr Nielsen contract
    specifically states it is a five year contract. California labor
    code 2922: An employment, having no specified term, may be
    terminated at the will of either party on notice to the other. Employment for a specified term means an employment for a period
    greater than one month. California labor code 2924: An employment for a specified term may be terminated at any time by
    the employer in case of any willful breach of duty by the employee
    in the course of his employment, or in case of his habitual neglect
    of his duty or continued incapacity to perform it. Using different
    management styles for cause does not cut it.

    Tra and Hi Fi: It does not matter if only one person voiced
    an opinion against the firing. It was F k g against the law.
    It was an invalid contract. When the council was sworn into
    office they took an oath to up hold the law. The issue here
    is: Is this council impervious to the law? Any jackass should
    know the answer to that.

  147. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    DTR,

    I agree that if the firing was illegal, that trumps issues of public opinion. I am not a lawyer, so I don’t know if your interpretation of the law is correct or not. But if you are confident that your interpretation is correct, and especially if you are a lawyer or have talked to a lawyer who agrees with you, then I urge you to take this beyond posting your opinion to this blog and go ahead report the illegality to whatever the appropriate agency or agencies are that can take action about it – and/or file a lawsuit seeking to reverse the action.

  148. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    Who was the shoplifting council person?

  149. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 2:04 pm

    Anonymous 1:11 – Insider has been pretty much on the money in the past. Maybe it is you that is the P O S

  150. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    What is shocking is that the some of the good old boys have broken the law since the beginning. And nobody can seem to stop them. Or no one has ever tried.

  151. Joel Mielke
    July 2, 2011 at 2:44 pm

    The Mayor and his supporters shouldn’t have to defend him from scurrilous attacks. I don’t know that Insider is a liar, but I’m inclined to agree with Anonymous 1:11 about his character.

  152. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    EPOA statement

    The Eureka Police Officers’ Association understands our Citizens and City Council have high expectations regarding the service provided by the Eureka Police Department. We wish to reassure you that our commitment to a tradition of excellent service remains unchanged regardless of who presently sits in the Chief’s Office. We will continue to meet or exceed those expectations.

    The Eureka Police Officers’ Association recognizes we work for the City of Eureka, its citizens and its elected officials. We are thankful for the continued support for Public Safety demonstrated by the City Council and our community.

    The Eureka Police Officers’ Association also extends our appreciation to former Chief Garr Nielsen for his years of service and we wish him the best in his future endeavors.

    On behalf of the EPOA membership,

    EPOA Board Members:

    Patrick Bishop (President)

    Steve Watson (Vice President)

    Cory Crnich (Secretary)

    Amanda Nichols (Treasurer)

    Seems like EPOA doesn’t have a problem with the chief being gone…

  153. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Seems like EPOA doesn’t have a problem with the chief being gone…

    Nor have they openly expressed support for the decision to fire him. In short, they are seeking to remain neutral, or at least appear neutral, which is really not surprising in the least — it would be quite extraordinary if they did otherwise.

  154. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    tra:

    I fully agree with you about the poll, but not necessarily that Newman is more vulnerable than Brady. In the last election Larry Glass was tied to being against the Marina Center by the well funded Measure N, and so that cost him a lot of votes against an otherwise weak opponent. Against another opponent (like in a recall) she might well not stand a chance after her vote yesterday. I think you will find a poll will show a strong dissatisfaction with all four members of the “Gang of Four” that ran a very popular chief of police out of town.

  155. Suzy Q
    July 2, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    Joel the world isn’t how you want it to be, it’s how it is. People like Frank are protected. The problem is, he’s a Boy Scout leader and the Mayor of our town.
    He called Baykeeper a terrorist group. Where were you then, Joel. Your a nice guy with a good sense of humor. Your wrong to pick on insider for outing Frank. She doing the community a service.

  156. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    I would say the EPOA statement took high ground and is about as neutral as you can get. Which is what they should do.

  157. Good for EPOA
    July 2, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    I would say the EPOA statement took high ground and is about as neutral as you can get. Which is what they should do.

  158. July 2, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    HiFi wrote:

    “Yes I have Mitch, here and several times.”

    OK. Thank you.

  159. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    Anon 3:09,

    You may well be correct about Brady’s vulnerability, but I have no way of knowing for sure (my comment about who seems like they would be most vulnerable to a recall were, at best, just an preliminary guess based on the last election), and I think it’s safe to say that nobody else knows for sure either. Which is why if folks are serious about a recall effort, they really do need to commission a poll, and it would be best to do so ASAP.

    The amount of money and number of grassroots volunteers that would need to be marshalled for a recall campaign to be successful is quite considerable, and it would probably be wisest to focus limited resources on those councilmembers who are most vulnerable. It seems to me that it might be better to focus on three targets with the hope of winning at least two of them, than to try to take on all four and then because of inadequate resources, winning only one.

    If that happened, not only would those backing the recall campaigns fail to gain a majority on the council, it would actually reinforce the claims by the surviving three that a majority of Eurekans don’t care about this issue (which I suppose is possible), or that the majority of their Eurekans actually supported the actions of Tyson and the Gang of Four (which I think is very unlikely indeed).

    On the other hand, if all four of the councilmembers who supported Tyson’s action in firing Nielsen turn out to be pretty much equally vulnerable, and a large majority of Eurekans favor getting rid of Dave Tyson, then it might make sense to take on all four Tyson supporters in a campaign with a theme of making a “clean sweep.”

    Now I’m sure that there are more politically astute and plugged-in folks out there who are considering these things, but I just wanted to offer my advice, for whatever it may be worth.

  160. July 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    What good are scurrilous attacks, Suzy-Q? it’s just rumor-mongering of the lowest order, and it undermines the expression of legitimate grievances. We don’t need to somehow prove that our opponents are evil (we won’t because they’re not), we just need to beat them at the polls in the next election.

  161. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    What is the name of the former council person that got caught shoplifting?

  162. Anonymous
    July 2, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    Why do you say Suzy Q and Insider are not telling what they know, Joel? You should not be naive. Sometimes the good guy gets beat by the bad guy. White hats only win in old time cowboy movies.

  163. July 2, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    Sorry Anonymous, you watch too much TV. Why do some of you (and your counterparts at the Humboldt Mirror) have to despise and hate people if they have an opposing view? It ain’t pretty.

  164. tra
    July 2, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Why do some of you (and your counterparts at the Humboldt Mirror) have to despise and hate people if they have an opposing view?

    I suspect you already know the answer, Joel, but I’ll share my theory anyway: Believing that your opponents are Evil, rather than just Wrong on one or more issues, well it’s a simple and easy approach to politics, doesn’t require much thought, gives the True Believer an invigorating feeling of moral superiority and righteous indignation, and releases them from any responsibility to engage in the hard work of trying to have a meaningful discussion with those who have opposing views and of trying to persuade at least some of thoe people on at least some issues.

    I don’t mean to suggest that there aren’t some political actors out there who are motivated by truly selfish and hopelesssly bigoted perspectives, nor do I suggest that there aren’t some who are motivated by personal vendettas and other highly questionable motives. There are. But I do think that most people involved in politics believe that their actions are aimed at the greater good. Even some of those who seem to act mostly in their own financial interests and the interests of their allies and their financial and political sponsors do sincerely believe that those actions are also beneficial to the majority.

    And sometimes that may be true — for example a union leader who is elected to office and uses that position to fight for workers’ rights, is both acting in their own interest and in the interest of their supporters, but also (I believe), in the interest of the overall well-being of the community. Or to take another example, a small business person who wins office on a platform of eliminating unnecessary red-tape and wasteful government spending, which both serves their own interests and those of their supporters, but also (if they are focusing on legitimate issues of overregulation and truly unwise government spending), can also be beneficial to society as a whole.

    Being overly naiive about the motivation of your opponents is a risk, and those who seem to be acting on personal vendettas and out of completely selfish or bigoted motives ought to be called on that. But I don’t see people having difficulty doing that, whereas I do see a lot of people having the opposite problem, namely always assuming the worst of motives on the part of those who have differing opinions and assuming that someone who has a wrong position or makes a wrong decision on one issue must be utterly evil and is probably guilty of all sorts of other crimes and misdeeds.

  165. pattycakes
    July 2, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Only department heads can be fired without cause. So I guess that would mean the former chief didn’t fire anyone without cause.

  166. Thorstein Veblen
    July 2, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    “The Brown Act, officially known as the Ralph M. Brown Act, was an act of the California State Legislature, authored by Assemblymember Ralph M. Brown and passed in 1953”

    Indeed, I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of the fair political practices act.

    And any poll, if actually undertaken, should start with the question ‘Who is Garr Nielsen’? Make it multiple choice if you like. He was only here for a coupla years. Lets see if more than 1 in 4 Eurekans gets it right.

    That way you’ll know what you are up against. And one reason why we are in the mess we are in, locally, statewide, and nationally.

  167. pattycakes
    July 2, 2011 at 9:43 pm

    Capt Incredulous, Some serious backpedaling you’re doing there. You say you “deduced” from what you read posted elsewhere that the Jager affair was one incident with one heroin addicted hooker, and yet I haven’t seen anything like that on any blog or article anywhere, until your post. How do you know it wasn’t meth or coke? How do you know it was one incident?

    Methinks thou doth protest too much. Which means, liar liar pants on fire.

  168. July 2, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    A poll is a great idea, tra. Send a check! Money is hard to come by and any proposed recall will be expensive, knowing the bucks behind the Clowns. I’ll chip in my nickel but it will need a lot more.

    I have noted that if you add the IQs of the FOUR, PLUS the mayor, you’d be hard pressed to get a double digit number. I have rarely had the privilege of seeing such a clueless body at work. Their minds are locked tight and they WILL NOT listen to the public or anyone besides Tyson and their ‘handlers’. What a great city!
    It’s time to go, Dave!

  169. anonymous
    July 3, 2011 at 9:48 am

    Joel,
    We are holding Frank Jager accountable for his own words and actions.
    Those that are documented can be denied but not refuted; those are what most of us are talking about. As an example, he did call Baykeepers a terrorist organization. He sets the tone for the city as mayor and his “leadership” is being justifiably questioned.

  170. July 3, 2011 at 10:00 am

    “…his ‘leadership’ is being justifiably questioned.”

    Since when is libel a way of “justifiably questioning” an elected official’s leadership? I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit of a very low order. You do a disservice to this blog and to the opposition to this mayor and city council by continuing to bring it up.

    I would ask that we take Mayor Jager’s advice in this morning’s Times Standard seriously and concentrate our efforts on the next election.

  171. Anonymous
    July 3, 2011 at 10:06 am

    “What is the name of the former council person that got caught shoplifting?”

    I believe it was really a supervisor, not a council person. Stan Dixon was caught shoplifting face cream, or something like that.

  172. The Big Picture
    July 3, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    Frank Jagger called Baykeeper an “extremest” group.

    As opposed to Frank’s financial backers that expect and receive haphazard rezoning, built his city beyond infrastructure capacity far outside average affordability for local incomes, and are chomping at the bit to begin anew.

    What an idiot HiFi, 9:19 am, must be to “freeze a frame” of a protest meeting and claim it was the number in attendance!

    Like most popular protests, people were entering and leaving throughout the meeting.

    The right-wing must always fear the public because every time the other half of the electorate begins to participate, the right-wing loses.

    No one can predict what issue will motivate the uninformed majority, thus, EVERY progressive issue must be strenuously suppressed, downgraded, and demoralized as a “small, noisy group”. Even in small town blogs.

    Fear explains right-winger’s irrationality and inevitable failure.

  173. July 3, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    “No one can predict what issue will motivate the uninformed majority…”

    I’ve never thought of it quite like that, but Big Picture rather neatly put his finger on it.

  174. Suzy Q
    July 3, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    Mr. Mielke, I say cut the head off the snake and the body isn’t a threat and doesn’t no where go. Fire Tyson and the Brady bunch will whither.

  175. Ed
    July 3, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    “kill the body, and the head will die” Hunter Thompson

  176. July 3, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    I’m all for trying to change things, but the hyperbole sounds nutty to me. My guess is that the average voter looking at one side that says, “things are peachy the way they are,” and the other side that says “let’s cut the head off the snake,” will opt for the former.

  177. Anonymous
    July 3, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Get rid of Tyson, and It will become musical chairs.

  178. July 3, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    Wow, Anonymous commenters predicting the future. Will wonders never cease?

  179. July 4, 2011 at 8:19 am

    This morning’s TS had a big article about the proposed budget. There was money for the zoo, street sweeping, pay raises, paint for the Adorni Center, and $150,000 for various “Clean Up Eureka” projects. The ONLY money mentioned for the Police Department was for one posible additional officer for the POP program. Nothing was mentioned for the Fire Department. Where is OUR MEASURE O money going? It was SOLD to us as funds for better public safety, police and fire. Now Tyson is pissing it down every rathole he can find. I don’t dispute the value of some of these items but they were NOT the intention of Measure O. Thanks, Dave. I hope it was good for you ’cause we sure DID NOT enjoy it! (the screwing, that is)
    It’s time to go, Dave!

  180. July 4, 2011 at 8:27 am

    At least Eureka’s godfathers came up with some fireworks. Time to celebrate our “independence”!!

  181. Anonymous
    July 4, 2011 at 9:16 am

    This morning’s TS had a big article…

    They did mention a new roof for the fire station. I’m not a Tyson fan, but part of the intent of Measure O was to keep fire and police at the current levels. So, that funding was mentioned because it was nothing “new”.

  182. Anonymous
    July 4, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Oops – I mean it “was NOT mentioned because it is nothing new.

  183. High Finance
    July 4, 2011 at 9:59 am

    “Rat hole”??

    I don’t call a new roof for the fire station, painting the Adorni Center (required maintenance to stop more expensive problems later), street sweeping (have you seen our streets lately ?), other clean up projects, pay raises for city employees “rat holes”.

    BTW, don’t you all agree with Murl in using the money for another POP officer instead of Garr’s idea of a PR person ?

  184. Goldie
    July 4, 2011 at 10:03 am

    It was a Youth Service person not a PR person that was changed.

  185. Shoot ToKill
    July 5, 2011 at 9:23 pm

    Now that we are back to the Good Ol’ Boy Club, how soon before EPD starts shooting people again?

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