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Ukiah residents oppose WalMart expansion

Ukiah Daily Journal: Residents describe larger Walmart as a ‘net loss’ to Ukiah

Most comments at Planning Commission hearing say store’s expansion would cause urban decay

Many local residents spoke out Wednesday against a proposed expansion of Ukiah’s Walmart, saying it would drain dollars from local businesses and resources from the county, as well as increase traffic congestion.

Full story.

  1. 69er
    August 15, 2011 at 11:36 am

    They wanted it, they got it and now they cryafter seeing what can happen. It will be the same story here if and when it happens.

  2. Jack Sherman
    August 15, 2011 at 11:50 am

    If the comments in Ukiah are any indication, all those video documentaries, books and economic research proving Walmart harms small towns will continue getting little media coverage.

    After thousands of years human “civilization” is still developing our communities beyond available infrastructure, resources, water…..and today, the additional social services, welfare, food stamps and housing aid that Walmart will require.

    Who will tell the people?

  3. Anonymous
    August 15, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Not the corporate media or owned politicians

  4. August 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    Walmarts happen when when the stock market elects our politicians, who keep the balance of trade terminally out of ballance in China’s favor. But, that’s just my opinion because I think too much. Don’t worry, be happy! Ignorance is bliss.

  5. Walt
    August 15, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    “Shut up and buy, Eureka.”
    –Michael T. Duke, President and CEO of Walmart and member of the Advisory Board of Tsinghua University School of Economics and Management, Beijing, China. Compensation for 2011: $18,712,721.00.

  6. Anonymous
    August 15, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    Holy Crap!! Can’t you just get a life and let Walmart come in without throwing a total major cow?!! You and your liberal minions don’t represent the rest of the county, so just SHUT UP!!!!!

  7. The Monitor
    August 15, 2011 at 11:21 pm

    what do you think the reaction of the city fathers and mothers will be? Compassion and a concern for the community’s economic health, one could hope. Same here but don’t hold your breath. Watch out target.

  8. Jack Sherman
    August 16, 2011 at 11:58 am

    In spite of the usual accusations of “communist plots”….. DDT was proven harmful and banned. Consumer’s “Constitutional right” to continue buying it never existed.

    All developments should be welcomed only after proving they contribute more to our economy than they extract in public subsidies.

    How is this right or left-wing?

  9. High Finance
    August 16, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    “Ukiah residents oppose WalMart expansion”

    NOT TRUE. If most residents opposed it WalMart wouldn’t have enough customers and it would be closing, not expanding. Obviously most Ukiah residents support WalMart all the way.

    A more correct headline (which has never been a concern here) would say “SOME Ukiah residents oppose WalMart expansion”

  10. Fact Checker
    August 16, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    High Finance says:
    August 16, 2011 at 2:26 pm

    “Ukiah residents oppose WalMart expansion”

    “NOT TRUE. If most residents opposed it WalMart wouldn’t have enough customers and it would be closing, not expanding. Obviously most Ukiah residents support WalMart all the way.”

    Flawed logic. If 38% of the people support a store, it could survive quite well. We’ve been in endless war for almost ten years yet polls show the majority of Americans oppose the Gulf wars.

    Poll: Most Americans Say Iraq War Was a Mistake
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014856-503544.html

  11. High Finance
    August 17, 2011 at 8:21 am

    “If 38% of the people support a store, it could survive quite well.”

    More made up “facts”. And I am not sure where the war in Iraq has anything to do with WalMart in Ukiah.

  12. Anonymous
    August 17, 2011 at 8:42 am

    It was an example of flawed logic. 38% supporting a store entering their market doesn’t mean that 38% would shop there. It could be less and, if they drive out their competitors as they try to do, it could be higher. The unpopularity of the Iraq war is an example of how meaningless opinion polls are to our glorious leaders. It doesn’t matter what we think, only what their major campaign contributors think and so long as both of viable options belong to the same contributors they will continue to ignore us. Our increasingly polarized society is deliberate. Liberal / progressives aren’t going to vote for a Republican no matter who it is or what Obama does and conservative / right wingers aren’t going to vote for a Democrat no matter who it is or what Obama does. Your choices will be vote for the D / R corporate candidates, throw your vote away on a third party or stay home. It doesn’t really matter to the corporate elite which you choose because the uninformed (moderate) middle will vote for the best ads as if it’s American Idol. And the wars, corporate welfare and wealth concentration will continue while the middle class fades away.

  13. Fact Checker
    August 17, 2011 at 10:53 am

    High Finance says:
    August 17, 2011 at 8:21 am

    “If 38% of the people support a store, it could survive quite well.”

    “More made up “facts”. And I am not sure where the war in Iraq has anything to do with WalMart in Ukiah.”

    What a moron. I never represented 38% as a fact. I merely pointed out your logic could not pass the muster of a 5th grade debating class. If you do not understand the difference between “popular support” and “what is beneficial for society”, then I suppose this is an attestation to either the death of critical thinking – or – just how big of lies you are willing to tell yourself Hi Liar.

  14. High Finance
    August 17, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Your moniker is “Fact Checker”.

    68% of the people think you should give up your moniker in shame.

  15. Fact Checker
    August 17, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    High Finance says:
    August 17, 2011 at 11:08 am

    “68% of the people think you should give up your moniker in shame.”

    I checked snopes.com and there’s no such fact. Always wrong Hi Liar.

  16. Jack Sherman
    August 17, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    How many times are you folks going to feed this pedantic fool?

    He focuses on the speck in your eye, while ignoring the log-jammed in his.

    There are limits to the social services, welfare, food stamps and housing aid needed to subsidize poverty wages. Just like the limits of toxins your body can accumulate before you will contract cancer, or the number of McMansion subdivisions that exceed infrastructure capacity and the sewer spills, traffic jams, and moratoriums guaranteed to follow.

    I support a loser’s right to lie and to dig a hole to bury themselves in…

    But, that “right” ends where our community’s environmental health, sound infrastructure, and economic sustainability begins.

  17. Anonymous
    August 17, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    “NOT TRUE. If most residents opposed it WalMart wouldn’t have enough customers and it would be closing, not expanding. Obviously most Ukiah residents support WalMart all the way”.

    If true, how on Earth has Ray’s stayed open in Eureka for a decade with few customers?

    The size of an entity determines the ability to absorb huge losses on an individual store for YEARS without decreasing the company’s net-worth! It’s one reason Walmart, (and local building owners), leave vacated stores empty as long as the the write-off pays the rent.

    Walmart can afford to drop their prices to cost, or below, and enjoy a tax system that allows them to write-off losses against thousands of other profitable stores, until they vanquish a community’s quaint remnants of a “free-market” system.

    This explains why we don’t read the word “capitalism” in U.S. media anymore.

    We’re living the tyranny of its logical extreme.

  18. Not A Native
    August 17, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    The fallacy of Hi Fi’s argument here is he assumes without question that WalMart management know what people want and seek to provide that. Thats simply not true. First of all, WalMart’s mission isn’t to know and act on what people want, its to make profits for the owners. Period. The specific way WalMart managers attempt to do that is their business plan.

    While there’s no basis for Hi Fi’s argument, there’s plenty of evidence that WalMart business plan is to obtain market share through coercive sales and employment practices to result in near monopoly power and create captive customers and suppliers. So, regardless of what consumers and producers want, WalMart’s plan is to control commerce becoming producers’ only customer and consumers’ only retailer.

    On the other hand, it IS public officials’ job to know what people(they represent) want. And those officials regularly selected by election or reappointment by all the public. Not by a small group of owners seeking only a larger share of wealth, as is the case for WalMart.

  19. High Finance
    August 17, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    NAN. The way any business makes a profit is exactly by knowing and acting on what people want.

    What people want can be manipulated and every single business in the world that advertises is trying to do exactly that. And yes you have a point that trying to achieve a monopoly to capture most of the market is something that WalMart does to some extent.

    But, if you think about it (and that leaves you out Jack Sherman) most businesses also try to do that very thing. It is just that they aren’t as successful at it.

    Aren’t cyber bullies like Jack Sherman also trying to do the same thing ? To take over a blog and have a left wing POV as the only POV allowed ?

    Ray’s is a good store and they are probably not going to make it much longer for the very reason that they don’t have enough customers. I think they are hanging on just because the owners have invested so much money that they don’t want to give up yet. WalMart (if they have a grocery section) will not hurt them. The new Super Safeway probably will.

  20. August 17, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    You still don’t get it, HiFi. Using loss leaders and price undercutting, WalMart first drives out any competition. Then You end up shopping there (if you have a job) because it’s the only damn store left in town. This has happened in hundreds of towns across the country (see “Big Box Swindel” by Stacey Mitchell). The market that remains is not enought to feed the WalMart store so it simply pulls up stakes and leaves. It leaves an empty building to create blight. It leaves a town with few jobs and fewer local businesses. Sometimes whole towns have pretty much ceased to exist. I guess in your eyes cheap underwear makes it all worthwhile, HiFi, but most people would not be happy with those results.
    The amazing thing is that WalMart is able to sell this snake-oil time after time. It finds desparate towns and promises them the moon. All they end up with is the rocks.
    I can only hope, HiFi, that your business is one that is directly impacted by the Big Boxes (you may not think it will be, but don’t count on it. There are many indirect impacts). Maybe it’s the only way you’ll ever learn.

  21. High Finance
    August 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    You have never answered the question asked by several people here, multiple times.

    Exactly what local stores will be put out of business in Eureka ?

  22. High Finance
    August 17, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    And by “what”, I mean name them.

    Whatever damage to local stores would have been done was done years ago by K-Mart, Costco and Target.

  23. Not A Native
    August 17, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Hi Fi writes: “The way any business makes a profit is exactly by knowing and acting on what people want.”

    That’s an article of faith, not a statement of fact. You faith based belief is that the status quo is must be wanted simply because it IS the status quo. Thats a self justifying position.

    To paraphrase your fallacy to show how ridiculous it is, I’ll offer: “People are enslaved because they wish to be enslaved.” And “Leaders stay in power exactly by knowing and acting on what people want.”

    Force, fear, coersion(e.g. advertising), and denying opportunity can easily create a status quo that isn’t wanted.

    But as you finally acknowledge, profit can and is made in ways that don’t require knowing what people want. In fact having power over people can compel them to increase your share of wealth, even if they don’t want to.

    Hi Fi, you want to have it both ways but the evidence won’t let you. The WalMart business plan is semilegal extortion and tyranny. It exploits an unintended loophole in competition that permits one entity to take it all. Standard Oil and the old AT&T are but two examples of businesses that made profits but didn’t know and act on what people wanted.

  24. High Finance
    August 18, 2011 at 11:56 am

    I repeat, whatever damage to local stores that would have been done by your bogeyman was done years ago by K-Mart, Costco and Target.

    Local stores have adapted and learned to compete in other ways. I for one do not miss the days of overpriced goods, limited selection and limited hours. Walsh’s, Daly’s, Bistrins and even Arthur Johnson’s had us by a stranglehold. I and many, many others would take our kids school clothes shopping down to Santa Rosa every August to escape them.

  25. Fact Checker
    August 18, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    High Finance says:
    August 18, 2011 at 11:56 am

    “I repeat, whatever damage to local stores that would have been done by your bogeyman was done years ago by K-Mart, Costco and Target.”

    Keep repeating your myths Hi Liar.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/business/yourmoney/17costco.html
    How Costco Became the Anti-Wal-Mart

  26. Cheers
    August 18, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    How hilarious!

    First, they denied that big boxes have negative impacts on rural economies.

    Then, they denied the increased demands on social services, welfare, food stamps and housing aid AND that every community is limited in the number of poverty wage jobs it can subsidize.

    NOW, after overwhelming publications, documentaries and economic research, (including local research), the “argument” becomes, “yeah but, the damage to local stores was already done by your bogeyman years ago by K-Mart, Costco and Target.”

    In honor of its stubbornly uninformed advocates, maybe Walmart will provide free cigarettes opening day since some smokers never develop lung cancer.

  27. High Finance
    August 18, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Now WalMart causes lung cancer ?

  28. August 18, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    Do the citizens of Eureka {and surrounded affected areas] have

    nothing to say about pending WalMart? Does taking space at a

    defunct ste make the m immune automatically. Maybe ukiah

    buys it–do We????l–

  29. Not A Native
    August 18, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    Now just wait a minute Hi Fi.

    First you lecture us with your faith based cockamamie idea:
    “The way any business makes a profit is exactly by knowing and acting on what people want.”

    Now you cry abused victim and write:
    “I for one do not miss the days of overpriced goods, limited selection and limited hours. Walsh’s, Daly’s, Bistrins and even Arthur Johnson’s had us by a stranglehold.”

    So you felt ‘strangled’ by those profit making, long time(revered?)local businesses run by your good Republican neighbors. But in the same breath you have total faith in the benovolence and virtue of the distant, monolithic WalMart. You’re even stupider and more bitter and disgruntled than I would ever have guessed. You’re a poster child of someone who would cut off his nose to spite his face.

  30. Cheers
    August 18, 2011 at 8:33 pm

    Hi-Liar must be denser than I estimated.

    His ilk used to claim that smoking doesn’t cause cancer, just like they’re claiming poverty wage saturation doesn’t harm rural communities….despite the plethora of evidence.

  31. High Finance
    August 19, 2011 at 8:24 am

    NAN, NAN, NAN…… How can you be a college graduate and yet understand so little ? I have no “faith” in WalMart or any other store. They provide what the people ask for or they go out of business.

    That is why those old time businesses are gone. They survived until they had competition from the Bayshore Mall and K-Mart. The mall & K-Mart provided the service, selection and prices the people wanted.

    The left hates WalMart mostly because they are non union and they donate to conservative causes. Yet nobody here has can name one local store that would go out of business when WalMart arrives.

  32. High Finance
    August 19, 2011 at 8:27 am

    Cheers the troll who follows me around. Never contributing an original idea just spewing his lies about me.

    It was widely accepted that cigarettes cause cancer long before I even got out of grade school. Poverty wages are better than no jobs at all.

  33. August 19, 2011 at 11:54 am

    Let’s work upo through town to see who might be affected by WM. How about Bucksport Sporting goods? Maybe add in Redwood Marine and Pro Sports? OK, Now include any number of other Mall stores the sell clothing and appliances (Sears?) True, some of them are not local but a closure means jobs lost. Toss in some pharmacies who can’t sell BELOW cost like WalMart does until it drives out the little guys. Who else we got? Picky Picky Picky? Maybe a few small grocery stores? How about the painter’s supply store on 6th or Sheman Williams on E ? I guess these guys don’t count for much in HiFi’s world. He’d rather provide tax supported assistance for underpaid, underemployed Wally World employees. What a vision the man (I think he’s male, anyway) has.

    HiFi has the cart entirely in front of the horse. Any economist will tell you that you can’t support a community on retail alone. Somebody must PRODUCE something. Why aren’t we focusing on an industrial park. Even Blue Lake and Weaverville have one, for crying out loud. Couple it with Short Sea Shipping to get costs down and we have a thriving community with decent jobs and people who can afford to buy real goods. Try that vision on for size, HiFi. Even you might thrive.

  34. Cheers
    August 19, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Save your keystrokes NAN, “there’s no vision there”, and he’s certainly no economist or debater.

    Economists were already hired to calculate the amount of low-wage retail Eureka can sustain.

    However, try and quote research about the limits to ANYTHING and the ideologues screech “social engineering”…as if haphazard planning by the highest bidders hasn’t already socially engineered our infrastructure and government budgets beyond capacity. (The unfunded public subsidies that motivate the development community to control local politics).

    It was known for half a century that cigarettes cause cancer before the warnings appeared and the adds vanished.

    At that rate, and with the usual assistance of the purposely uninformed, we may have to wait until Eureka has shuttered businesses and longer welfare lines for the ideologues to tally….just like the cancer epidemic…before they concede to the experts.

    In response to overwhelming evidence of numerous rural economies negatively impacted by Walmart, Hi-Moron relies on sophistry, demanding the hypothetical names of impacted businesses.

    Meanwhile, cities as near as Arcata, have provided successful examples of development alternatives. How we improve on others success should be the mutual goal, NOT repeating a nation-wide failure.

    A few years ago the tobacco industry denied that smoking caused cancer in Congressional testimony, too bad Hi-Moron wasn’t on their team to demand that Congress “name the next victims”…or shut up…

    This Hi-Liar chump is a troll, his “arguments” are merely irrational provocations, and we fell for it NAN!

  35. High Finance
    August 20, 2011 at 10:37 am

    Mouse. People do not go to Bucksport Sporting goods for cheap prices. They have a small & loyal customer base that appreciate their expertise. Same with Redwood Marine.

    You mention the mall and by doing so prove my point. There are very few local stores in the mall outside the food court. And those that are sell specialty products not carried by WalMart.

    Those customers that buy their prescription medicines strictly on the cheapest price already have alternatives to the local pharmacies with Costco, Rite Aid, Longs and by mail.

    Picky, Picky, Picky ? Are you kidding me ? Most of their products are not even carried by WalMart ! Have you even been in that store ?

    Painter’s supply ? Once again the customers at Sherwin Williams have cheaper alternatives already. If cheap prices are all they are after they can buy paint at K-Mart, Costco, Target already.

    And no, you cannot build a healthy economic base on retail alone. But that is not the choice being given here. It is not like a automobile manufacturing plant is going to open in the Gottschalks building if only WalMart backs out. Once again I have to point out that a retail job is better than no job at all.

    Cyber bullies like Cheers and others want to shut up diseenting viewpoints. They fail to understand the basic values that made this country great.

  36. Cheers
    August 21, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Indeed.

    Calling-out your lies must be very painful for you.

    And, once again, you fail to site a single source refuting the plethora of economic evidence proving Walmart, and poverty-wage saturation, harms rural economies.

    A saturation that once motivated this great nation and its people to support high taxes on high incomes that patriotically invested in social programs, education, jobs, housing and infrastructure that ushered-in America’s greatest period of productivity, prosperity and the largest middle-class in history.

    The “value” of unrestrained capital to impoverish the working families of America…Asia, Africa, South America, Mexico, etc. …is traitorous in the extreme.

  37. High Finance
    August 21, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Cheers, you are nothing better than a troll following me around like this.

    If you would stop to think, much of that “economic evidence” is a WalMart coming into a town without many big boxes. We have the Bayshore Mall, K-Mart, Costco and Target already here. Some of that competition has been here since the late 80’s.

    Many downtown businesses did close their doors then. Downtown also suffered when Henderson Center started up 20 years before that. But downtown adjusted and is thriving again. As I have shown, WalMart won’t be hurting local businesses as much as it will the other big boxes. But overall Eureka will benefit more than it loses because WalMart will attract more customers from outside the Eureka area.

  38. Cheers
    August 28, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    You seem to enjoy it, hence, your response.

    Who you gonna believe, local and national economic research, or “HiFi’s’ lying eyes?

    Please provide the research showing that Crescent City has experienced an economic improvement from Eureka’s Walmart shoppers.

    Better yet, please provide ANY research showing that ANY rural economy has benefited from their Walmart.

    Silly fool.

  39. Cheers
    August 30, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    Request the research and HiFi is effectively vanquished.

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