Home > Protest > Vets Occupy Everywhere on Veterans Day

Vets Occupy Everywhere on Veterans Day

Military veterans joined with Occupy protests across the country, including the City of Eureka, on Veterans Day.

But as noted in The Nation, vets are a common presence in the Occupy movement, especially since the Oakland Police shot one of their own in the face with a non-lethal projectile on October 25th.

Scott Olsen served two tours in Iraq before moving to the Bay Area, only to be sent to hospital in critical condition by OPD.  Coincidentally, Olsen was released on Veterans Day.

Photo by Mitch Trachtenberg.

  1. November 12, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Mitch recommended this great documentary, which gives long overdue attention to Vietnam soldiers and veterans who opposed the war, and dispels some enduring, pernicious, right-wing myths.

  2. seconded
    November 12, 2011 at 10:27 am

    Very eye opening documentary, Joel. Veterans are not as they’re portrayed in the news and movies. They’ve always been the first to tell me that. At least half the homeless population where I grew up were vietnam veterans. Drafted! Shown all kinds of heroic glamors and given all kinds of heroic promises, played by all the Great American rules, only to be cheated by their own government and falsely portrayed by their own country’s biggest media. It’s the same to this day. They treat everybody, even themselves, like domesticated fish. It’s like you’d have to allow part of yourself to become unconscious to so willfully participate in forcefully and deceptively manipulating so many people all the time.

    It might have been Redd Foxx or Godfrey Cambridge that said, if you can get shipped off to somebody else’s home to kill or be killed at the age of 18, then you sure as hell should be able to know what it means to enjoy a drink and a smoke by the age of 17.

  3. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 10:36 am

    I’m all for Occupy. I’m not for camping.

  4. Plain Jane
    November 12, 2011 at 10:50 am

    Without preservation of records and honest documentaries, much of our important history disappears down the rabbit hole and becomes the new and improved, elite friendly version taught in public schools after approval by right wing fundamentalist school board members in Texas.

  5. Goldie
    November 12, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Camping does not seem to be ruining the economy as much as corporate greed. It is rough on the grass, I will give you that but camping has not deflated my retirement package or created unfair taxing levels. I think I am now in favor of camping, and campers. At first I was not. Now I am.

  6. Goldie
    November 12, 2011 at 11:13 am


    I do want to thank the vets for serving their country and defending our constitution. Their voices are so powerful and clear. I have sadly heard that some police do target them at demonstrations, considering them traitors and do not like the feeling of competing authority.

  7. skippy
    November 12, 2011 at 11:33 am

    Timely article and photo, Mitch. Thank you, Veterans.

    Readers should be aware there’s a second Iraq war veteran in intensive care with serious injuries after police beat him during the Occupy Oakland protests last week. Kayvan Sabehgi, a former Army Ranger who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, was beaten and arrested after encountering Oakland police while walking home.

    There was a group of police in front of me, they told me to move, but I was like: ‘Move to where?’ There was nowhere to move. Then they lined up in front of me when one moved forward and hit me in my arm and legs and back with his baton. Then three or four cops tackled me and arrested me,” Sabehgi said.

    Sabeghi said he was handcuffed and left in a police van for three hours before cops took him to jail– instead of a hospital. “My stomach was really hurting, and it got worse to the point where I couldn’t stand up,” he said. “I was on my hands and knees and crawled over the cell door to call for help. I just lay there in pain for hours.

    An ambulance was eventually called– 18 hours after cops first handcuffed him. He was brought to Highland Hospital’s intensive care for internal bleeding and a lacerated spleen. Former Marine Cpl. Scott Olsen was also at Highland Hospital for his critical injuries suffered during the Oakland protests.

    Oakland police had no comment.

    We hope EPD can show more appropriate restraint given our new (or old) acting Chief, past history and the use of batons, and the dragging of protesters out of their Hooverville tents by the feet at 3:40 in the morning.

  8. November 12, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    What do you mean “non lethal projectile”? There is no such thing.
    Oh, yeah. To those with the smart remarks, try asking the dead. They’ll tell you where to put your propaganda.

  9. Load Me Another
    November 12, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    Interesting that veterans are only recognized in conjunction with the Occupy movement. Do they only deserve our respect if they’re connected to the movement? Don’t they deserve our respect stand alone? It just seems that they are only mentioned when they are useful to a cause, that’s all. Glad Heraldo saw fit to mention them at all after the copious time spent on poop and pee this week. On another note, when I see End the Fed at the courthouse does that mean they support Ron Paul? Now there’s a clear message. Also, there’s a Reclaim Arcata march going on at 3:00 today on the plaza for those who enjoy marching.

  10. November 12, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    “Interesting that veterans are only recognized in conjunction with the Occupy movement.”

    This, from the super-patriot who so generously offered that “we should all give thanks for their service…even the ones down there at the courthouse” on an earlier thread.

    I’m sure they all appreciate his unwavering support.

  11. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    It’s a valid point he made, Joel. I hope you never serve on a jury because you come prepared with prejudice.

  12. November 12, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    “…you come prepared with prejudice”?

    And you write without thinking.

  13. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    I just had a horrible thought. What if the person who pooped and peed on the bank was a veteran?

  14. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    they should have a medal for that.

  15. insider
  16. Percy
    November 12, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    “Interesting that veterans are only recognized in conjunction with the Occupy movement.”

    So here we go again, a totally bullshit pronouncement made by a complete bullshitter whose only purpose to post is spin spin spin. GFYS!

  17. November 12, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    Yes, Insider, the National Review has such an awesome record for predicting social and political trends.

  18. Walt
    November 12, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    “They should have a medal for that.” A Poople Heart?

  19. Plain Jane
    November 12, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    LOL Walt!

  20. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 5:13 pm

    how about the meddle of honor?

  21. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    urine the army now.

  22. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    Was there more than one veteran? I only saw one veteran there.

  23. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    Was it ever actually determined if the Iraqi war vet was hit with a police projectile? Is it not possible that he was hit by a rock or bottle thrown by a protester? I know thats not what you want to hear but who knows for sure?

    I hope is is out of the hospital and doing well in recovery no matter where the projectile came from.

  24. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    And you write without thinking.

    No Joel, you’re just an ideologue. You let your bias of personality blind you to the occasionally valid idea the people you dislike might express.

  25. Anonymous
    November 12, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    Joel, I’m a vet, how about you asshole.

  26. Percy
    November 12, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    Load of Crap, some of us honor the vets by not voting for politicians that vote for the wars that fucks them up for life. The same pols that are so eager to spread our wonderful exceptionalism to every country on earth are also the ones that can’t find any funding for veterans who return to no jobs and limited support for ongoing mental and physical impairments. Jim DeMint was the sole negative vote on a bill to help veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan get a job. And the bill was paid for! GFYS Jim DeMint!

  27. Dan
    November 13, 2011 at 6:18 am

    Anonymous says:
    November 12, 2011 at 6:41 pm
    Was it ever actually determined if the Iraqi war vet was hit with a police projectile?

    “This poor guy was right behind me when he was hit in the head with a police projectile. He went down hard and did not get up,” Finneburgh wrote.

  28. Dan
    November 13, 2011 at 7:34 am

    There is a line between nationalism and jingoism. The Jingo
    will take an idea and wrap the flag around it and call it America.
    Spread-eagleism. Locally we have a business-man that has adorned our coastline with huge red white and blue flag over Arcata bottoms (non-permitted). What am I to think? This guy must be a better american than his competition, Or does he love his country more than I do?
    That flag belongs to us all. Do not make the mistake of the South-
    where an ignorant racist group used the a once proud emblem as their own, and no one called them on it.

    When the KKK, used the Stars and Bars as their own,
    the South lost their flag.

  29. Dan
    November 13, 2011 at 7:38 am

    Above- Stars and Bars should read Confederate Flag.

  30. sick of it
    November 13, 2011 at 8:03 am

    As if anybody really cares that people are camped at the courthouse…in protest no less. People who don’t have a home are camping everywhere all the time.

    Complainers are letting us know that, to them, when the homeless are out of sight, they’re out of mind. When protest is out of sight, life is peachy. Now, if the protest successfully lowers the amount of people falling into homelessness all the time, even by a teeny tiny little itty bitty bit, it’s win/win/win. If it encourages more people to camp in front of the courthouse, then the message visibly becomes even louder, and still not as loud as the voice of this protest is given the silent support of the majority who can’t or won’t physically protest.

    Anybody who’s against this is insane.

  31. November 13, 2011 at 8:29 am

    Waving a flag around, singing patriotic anthems or getting all bent because someone doesn’t say the pledge of allegiance just the way you’d like is easy.
    Putting, life body and soul on the line to honorably serve your country is difficult.
    That’s why it’s pretty much impossible to question the patriotism of someone who has served honorably.
    that s proving to be a real quandary for the right
    They can’t simply dismiss them as unpatriotic “no ‘count hippies ” when vets show up at occupy demonstrations

  32. insider
    November 13, 2011 at 8:30 am

    Anybody who’s for this is insane.

  33. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 8:41 am

    impossible to question the patriotism of someone who has served honorably.

    Timothy McVeigh had an honorable discharged. He earned a Bronze Star from serving in the Gulf War and saved a comrade’s life who had life-threatening shrapnel wounds. Per your definition, we cannot question McVeigh’s patriotism. Anyone wearing a uniform is imbued with seemingly magical properties.

  34. November 13, 2011 at 8:51 am

    Read it in again numbnuts. I said “pretty much impossible ” that leaves a tiny exception for the McViegh’s of the world.

  35. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 8:55 am

    Ohhh, yes, a tiny exception to your rule that allows for a veteran might be a mass-murderer. Oh, well, then what you said it perfectly sensible. Umm, not.

  36. November 13, 2011 at 8:58 am

    In Oakland: “City Council Member; Larry Reid says: “…the encampment has been a major setback for the area while attracting sex offenders, mentally ill and homeless people and anarchists.”
    Printed in yesterday’s Times Standard.
    Notice how this AP story is crafted. The outlandish statements by this fool are left to stand with no rebuttal. This is part of strategy to dehumanize the protesters so they can attack them. Who would support “Sex Offenders”? No one, so now those protesting inequality and a “gamed system” are “Sex offenders?”
    Or “Anarchists”? If it’s just a bunch of “Those” people; then I suppose the cops have every right to bust some heads, right? I mean we wouldn’t want those “Sex Offenders” to attack our children right?, Thank your lucky charms the wealthy elites are protecting us from such deviates.
    Anarchists? Wow, 90 years and they’re still going strong. When I saw them all dressed in black during the SF protest in 2003, they ran towards the police after breaking some windows, and miraculously, the police line opened up and then closed behind them. They were not touched. The police didn’t hesitate in their march towards us. I saw this with my own eyes. Later, I read that the police had to get tough because of the: “Anarchists” breaking windows.

  37. November 13, 2011 at 9:02 am

    Not any mass murderer, mind you but one who engaged in mass murder with the specific intent to violently overthrow the government of the United States. Yes I would make an exception for a straight-up traitor like McVeigh..

  38. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 9:03 am

    Judge a person by their words and actions today, not their actions yesterday that were the result of a rigid compliance to following orders or were brought about by forced enlistment or were brought about by a youthful, inexperienced concept of patriotism and for which the original sentiment may have disappeared once serving in the military and discovering what the experience was really about.

    It’s patently absurd to give veterans a blank check on patriotism. Thank you for your past service. Now I’m going to inspect what you believe today because maybe you’re protesting against gay marriage or against abortion rights or against a president because he’s black or other idiotic beliefs. Oh, but according to Robash, a uniform gives a person instant credibility, except when it doesn’t. Uh huh.

  39. Percy
    November 13, 2011 at 9:20 am

    Any bets that Larry Reid is a tea party republican? And the “liberal mainstream media”, that Palin like to call the “lame street media” actually printed it, without a rebuttal or explanation that this was only this asshole’s opinion and not backed up by any factual evidence? I’d have to conclude that the mainstream media has taken a bit of a tilt to the right.

  40. November 13, 2011 at 9:49 am

    9:03 By your lights we would also have to ignore everyone with a College degree as well. After all didn’t they just a bunch of young impressionable people with unrealistic concepts of the world jumping through meaningless academic hoops

  41. November 13, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Robash says-Putting, life body and soul on the line to honorably serve your country is difficult.
    That’s why it’s pretty much impossible to question the patriotism of someone who has served honorably.

    What bullshit.
    I graduated high school in the early seventies.
    No one I knew went into the service as a patriotic
    stance.
    I did know of many who went to service
    because it was part of a court agreement to avoid
    prosecution for petty drug crime re: a joint. or they couldn’t
    get a job or they needed a mother- someone to tell them when to get-up or for the historical ugly truth of it all, the poor did it, they are always wars fodder.

  42. November 13, 2011 at 10:13 am

    Sounds like petty jealous to me:9:50
    Your vauge -assed half- assed recollections about “back in the day” doesn’t count.

    Service to our country counts.
    All I’m saying is that I would not personally question the patriotism of a fellow American who has served honorably in the armed forces. regardless of the controversial statements they might make.. If they go around blowing people up ,like McVeigh did, that’s another story.

  43. November 13, 2011 at 10:14 am

    You’re just another anonymous ignoramus to me, 6:45.

  44. Don't scab the picket line
    November 13, 2011 at 10:39 am

    I agree up to your last sentence, robash, philosophically at least. Think of it historically. If nothing else, surely you recognize real life “robin hoods” who are, in your own opinion genuine. Even every McVeigh represents something a hundred million peaceful, law abiding citizens think one way or another on a regular basis. (Globally you’re talking about a billion people, at least.) The McVeigh’s and the Ted theUnabomber ‘s are the Super Patriots. Like the folks who take time and money out of their own lives to “guard” the mexican border. Like our media’s honerable reporters, bravely confronting people who are causing everybody the most problems??? The media is fond of keeping us tuned to -isms. This protest isn’t even Extreme Nationalism. It’s a bunch of people in and from Humboldt gathering peacefully to see some of the big changes we all know can happen sooner than later. It’s idiotic to speak poorly of those people, they’re our friends and neighbors.

  45. November 13, 2011 at 11:39 am

    I despise censorship, I’d make an exception for11:21.

  46. robash141
    November 13, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    10:58. McVeigh was a treasonous psychotic sociopath. Scum who got exactly what was coming to him.. the fact that he served America and then betrayed her makes him even worse in my estimation.

  47. November 13, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    I despise censorship, I’d make an exception for11:21.

    It’s my patriotic duty to remove the whining, sexist, homophobic rantings of HumRed/Caliboy, or whatever other pseudonym he goes by these days.

  48. robash141
    November 13, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    My only regret concerning McVeigh is that he did not meet an even more appropriately gruesome fate. At that time I was in favor. Of boiling McVeigh in oil on the steps of the Capitol Building.

  49. insider
    November 13, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Joel Mielke,

    You dodged the draft question.

    Hmmm.

  50. November 13, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    No dodge. I’ve never been in the military, and I really don’t give a shit whether or not you have been.

  51. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Joel, what do you think of Heraldo’s use of the word “patriotic”?. Do you think it is nationalistic?

  52. insider
    November 13, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    You’re asking a draft dodger about patriotism?

  53. November 13, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    Nationalism and patriotism are distinct. Patriotism can be expressed by the left and the right. Nationalism is right-wing exclusively.

  54. November 13, 2011 at 2:34 pm

    And “Insider” may claim to be a veteran, but somehow he cannot muster the courage to use his name on a blog.

  55. November 13, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    Indeed Joel , this crew is unusually craven even by the standards of Humboldt Herald blog trolls.

  56. Insider
    November 13, 2011 at 2:49 pm

    Having dodged the draft and abused his country at every turn, Mielke now appoints himself an expert in both patriotism and nationalism.

  57. November 13, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    So, who are you, oh brave Insider?

  58. Door Prize
    November 13, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    The draft ended in 1973.

  59. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    Look up Robert Reich’s article. I think he has a good angle on Nationalism.

  60. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    This article also states that nationalism is not as simple and easy to define as you seem to think, Joel. Nationalism is not owned by the right wing, as you seem to wish to perpetuate.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/#BasConNat

  61. November 13, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    The article is unconvincingly trying to promote the idea of “liberal” nationalism. Read the conclusion. If you search hard enough, you’ll be able to find arguments in favor of almost anything.

  62. November 13, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    The litmus test for patriotism is hardly
    registering for dirty-wars.

  63. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Just trying to get you more in the middle on this. There are two sides to every story and many facets of this term.

  64. Insider
    November 13, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    We almost took the word of a US Sect of Labor and Stanford professor over that of Joel Mielke!

    What were we thinking?

  65. November 13, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    Insider persists, though he cannot answer for himself.

  66. What Now
    November 13, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    OliverNorth says:
    November 13, 2011 at 3:29 pm
    “The litmus test for patriotism is hardly
    registering for dirty-wars.”
    Excellent point, Ollie.

  67. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    He is correct (Insider) in this case. Those seem to be credible sources. Hope y’all have a nice Sunday evening.

  68. November 13, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    Nationalism is most often associated with the right however leftist nationalist movements do exist. Josip Tito of Yugoslavia was both a nationalist and a communist, as was Ho Chi Minh.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  69. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 3:58 pm

    Do you think wearing a lapel pin with a flag on it or flying the flag every day is too nationalistic?

  70. November 13, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    Tito and Ho Chi Minh were both internationalists.

  71. November 13, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    Also lots of leftist anti-colonialist movements in Africa were and are nationalistic.

    Joel, I will respect your opinion on it though it might differ and I will let it rest here. Good luck with the abusive and cowardly troll.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  72. Plain Jane
    November 13, 2011 at 4:37 pm

    Do you think Insider gives Robert Reich that much credence for his economic opinions, the field in which he is an expert? This in particular:

    The Truth About The Economy

  73. Rick
    November 13, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    Jane, I watched your video.
    Please watch mine.

  74. Plain Jane
    November 13, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    I watched it, this guy is a joke. He admits tax receipts are at their lowest level and doesn’t say WHY they dropped, just that it’s Obama’s fault. The whole video was like that. But he’s one of those trickledowners so it shouldn’t be surprising.

  75. What Now
    November 13, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    Joel Mielke says:
    November 13, 2011 at 4:07 pm
    “Tito and Ho Chi Minh were both internationalists”
    So was Ronald reagan.
    He just shifted from promoting a sigle world government in the 1950’s to promoting transnational and global corporations and a UN front for American Belligerence.

  76. Plain Jane
    November 13, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    BTW, I loved his spin on poverty. That 29% of the individuals who were poor in 1975 were no longer poor in 1990. Of course, he doesn’t say which categories that 29% were in. College students in 1975 living in poverty are quite likely to be making a decent income 16 years later. What a spinmeister this guy is.

  77. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    So, is it okay to wear a flag on your sweater or lapel, or not?

  78. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    Pride in your country is a good thing, no?

  79. Load Me Another
    November 13, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    Yes it is 6:48. Gee, it reminds me so much of that infamous “right wing” slogan, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” Gee, I guess that venom will have to fly over that one, but at least I can take solace that H. Boltage and I agree that small gov’t is good.

  80. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    Joel,

    “Insider” is a city of eureka employee, a Garr supporter – either works at city hall or at the police department.

  81. November 13, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    Nationalism in the United states is overwhelmingly predominately a phenomenon of the right wing.. The right wing assumes a posture of aggressive militaristic nationalism at almost all times. Ironic because the vast majority of their so-called leaders have never spent so much as a day wearing the uniform
    Patriotism and nationalism are not the same thing.
    One does not need to have served in the military to be a patriotic. However, as far as I’m concerned ,anyone who serves honorably in the US armed forces, aside from out and out traitors like McVeigh, ,their patriotism is beyond question.

  82. November 13, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    “So was Ronald Reagan.”

    Touché.
    Right-wing nationalists have never supported liberal capitalists of the Reagan/Clinton sort.

  83. November 13, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    And I agree with Rob Ash (an actual veteran who posts under his own name), that this is how nationalism is viewed, not only in the US, but in all developed countries. An English, German, Spanish or Dutch nationalist is an aggressive, bigoted militarist.

  84. Plain Jane
    November 13, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Having pride in your country for what it gets right is commendable. Being so prideful that you refuse to see its faults is not because that prevents you from trying to improve it which is unpatriotic.

  85. November 13, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    Just because someone is patriotic doesn’t mean they can’t be badly misguided. loving ones country is no different than other kinds of love in the sense that it can compel people do do some regrettable things.
    .

  86. November 13, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    Well put!

  87. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    There are a lot of old people out there who love this country wear their patriotic colors. They’ve seen a lot and if that’s the conclusion they came up with, more power to them. I show my colors on 4th of July, and that sort of holiday. Perhaps we all need to show more support for this country and all of the good it represents.

  88. November 13, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    Agreed, 8:00, keeping Plain Jane and Rob Ash’s comments (above) in mind. Dissent is patriotic in a more profound sense than flag-waving, but we critics also have a right to wave the flag.

  89. Anonymous
    November 13, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    So true 8:00. How about the Great Generation for example? Hard work, sacrafice, and service with honor. We may have social strides to make in this country, but some folks make us out to be the Taliban. Speaking out that, after we fully withdraw from Afganistan, will things be fair when the Taliban takes over again? What a great place to be a woman too, right Heraldo? Do we just watch as atrocities are committed? We all know that it won’t be soccer going on in the stadiums, but mass executions. Yes, I do think we have a lot to thankful for. Occupy pales in comparison to this kind of stuff. Gee, maybe Europe will nut up and take a stand for once instead of us doing it all.

  90. November 13, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    Thanks for the goofy rant. Now stop drinking and go to bed.

  91. Load Me Another
    November 13, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Very true 8:00. The Great Generation is a good example. Hard work, sacrafice, honor, and dignity defines them. We too often take for granted our right to dissent, etc. When the Taliban regains control of Afganistan, let that be a prime example of how lucky we are. As the soccer stadiums once again become the venue for mass executions, there will be countless reminders of the freedoms we have. Womens rights will certainly be championed too, right Heraldo? Yes, we have social strides to make in this country, but I don’t see people lining up to go live in Syria- those folks bring real meaning to Occupy…

  92. Plain Jane
  93. Midnight
    November 14, 2011 at 12:21 am

    Our founders fought for the dignity of humankind, not for love of country. The simple fact is they were traitors to their King, because they held universal principles of human rights to be more important than support of the status quo government.

    The magnificence of America lies in the principles the founders held dear, the principles which generations have supported and died for.

    When those principles are ignored and thieves use Washington to enrich themselves at the expense of the people, it is clear our founders would stand with those who have taken to the streets in city after city.

    Just read the Declaration of Independence if you have any doubt.

  94. Anonymous
    November 14, 2011 at 6:00 am

    Joel M, do you always post under your name? Have you ever posted as an anonymous or under some handle? Of course you have.

    “Ignoramus” could apply to you Joel. You are such an assohole yourself, a psuedo intelectual with an inflated opinion of yourself.

    Joel has posted what … 17 times in this thread out of 94?

    this is # 2 for me.

  95. November 14, 2011 at 6:59 am

    All I can say is that anyone one who is a fan of Tim McVeigh or the Unabomber or thinks what they did was excusable should not be surprised if I don’t want to come down and hang out on the street corner to demonstrate with you.

  96. Anonymous
    November 14, 2011 at 7:21 am

    So what, 6:00? The number of times Joel, or anyone, posts has no bearing on who is making the best argument. Complaining that you’ve only posted twice while he has posted 17 times is hilarious, especially since you wasted the last one whining that Joel got more posts than you. I don’t care if people want to use their real names or a pseudonym. It’s not that hard to figure out who has something valuable to contribute. Anonymous posters, on the other hand, can pretend each post is their first (or 2nd) and leave behind the baggage of prior mistakes while keeping a tab and insulting named posters for theirs.

    Some people work at computers and pop in and out of blogs carrying on extended discussions, respond to posts and clarify or defend their own opinions. Some people do anonymous hit and run, spew insults and run away without any real participation. My name will be Jane on my next post and yours will be whatever time you deign to drive by. Insult me for the number of times I post if that’s all you have, but don’t delude yourself into believing that alters the value of my opinions or yours.

  97. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 7:23 am

    LMAO! First mistake of the day. My e-mail was filled in on the line but the Plain Jane was missing and I didn’t notice.

  98. Anonymous
    November 14, 2011 at 7:26 am

    I think, Joel, that showing support for the country, while also trying to change it, is a much better idea than just showing unhappiness and dissent. I think it helps those get on board who are willing to stay on the wagon on patriotism without seeing the great problems we have.

  99. November 14, 2011 at 7:44 am

    “anyone one who is a fan of Tim McVeigh” has never been to Oklahoma City

  100. nerd
    November 14, 2011 at 8:07 am

    ” McVeigh was a treasonous psychotic sociopath.”

    where’s your perspective? People like him never done me or mine wrong, but the government people like him go up against has shipped my family off to die and lied to me about the reasons for it.

    You wanna talk about psychotic, how about a government that makes every single child in their country stand in a nazi-like sieg heil while chanting their promise of allegience to the government for which it stands…every single day of their entire childhood.

    …if you don’t feel just a little bit betrayed by “our” government, what a wonderful world you must be, but it’s not the one most people live in. We largely agree otherwise.

  101. Rick
    November 14, 2011 at 8:08 am

    MIdnight… OMG! Are you serious???
    Our founding fathers would certainly be supportive of your right to demonsrate, but most assuredly would NOT be onboard with the socialist, income distribution that this movement is promoting. Our founding fathers would cringe at the giant, bloated machine our government has become and would certainly not want to give the federal government even more power to control money as you all want to do. You are seriously deluded if you think otherwise.

  102. nerd
    November 14, 2011 at 8:16 am

    “showing support for the country, while also trying to change it, is a much better idea than just showing unhappiness and dissent. I think it helps those get on board who are willing to stay on the wagon on patriotism without seeing the great problems we have.”

    What kind of government gives itself so much power only to blame the problems of society on lack of participation by the people? Who is supposed to be serving whom? We can’t tell them what to do when we don’t like what they’re doing, yet they have an army of jack booted thugs who poke us around with cattle prods when they say we step out of line.

    Life isn’t about protest, nor should it be. It’s our “duty” to enjoy life and spread the wealth of THAT existence…we didn’t volunteer to be born, nor are we to be obligatory politicians. When the “real” politicans fail us, protest! Protest IS trying to change the problem as directly as possible so that we can get on with enjoying life “productively”.

  103. Rick
    November 14, 2011 at 8:25 am

    Wow Jane, you will see what you want to see I guess.
    First, he never said it was Obama’s fault, he said that if you were to try and attribute the tax revenue drop to a president, you would have to choose Obama, not Reagan as so many want to do, seeing as tax revenue went up during the 80s and 90s.

    As to why the revenues have dropped of recently, well, I don’t know if you noticed, but the economy kind of crashed. Lots of people and businesses lost a lot of money recently. No profits=no taxes.

    To your final point, yes, I am sure some of that 29% of the people below the poverty line that jumped up into the top 20% of income earners were college students. So let’s see, the poor people who worked hard, went to college to improve their education and landed a good job were able to better their economic well being. That sounds great to me! As a matter of fact, I would probably be one of those in that statistical group. You, however, seem to want income distribution even for those that do nothing to better their own situation.

    I do thank you for taking the time to watch the video though. Statistics are highly maleable. You can tweak them to show almost anything by carefully selecting your data sets. Take everything with a healthy dose of skepticism.

    BTW- I am actually in favor of temporarily raising the tax rate up on the wealthiest Americans. We should then try to drastically cut government spending, balance the budget and finally lower the tax rates again.

  104. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 8:30 am

    Rick, our “founders” weren’t perfect and made mistakes such as supporting slavery and denying non-white males the right to vote. In their defense, they realized they were imperfect and lacked the psychic ability required to plan for the indefinite future so built into the constitution a process to change it when needed. They did, however, understand that rich people can afford to pay to support the govt and poor people can’t. That’s why their government was supported by tariffs paid by the rich who could afford imported products. They also understood the corrupting power of corporations which is why they refused to grant them charters under the constitution. For that reason they would support the OWS movement to put people back in control of our government and restrict the power of corporations to change us from “of the people, for the people and by the people” to “of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.”

  105. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 8:39 am

    So why didn’t the trickle down economist talk about what caused the recession, Rick? He mentioned the drop in revenues under Reagan and blamed it on recession but he didn’t talk about the effect of wealth concentration at the top on the overall economy. Blaming recessions for revenues declining doesn’t address the fact that cutting taxes on the rich encourages them to cut jobs, wages and benefits for their workers (they can keep more and pay less) which causes recessions because it reduces the amount of money that the majority has to spend which further reduces the number of jobs. His supply side economics have been proven to be a catastrophic failure for most of us, but not for everyone. Haven’t you noticed?

  106. November 14, 2011 at 9:02 am

    “…showing support for the country, while also trying to change it, is a much better idea than just showing unhappiness and dissent.”

    That sounds reasonable, however, how does one conclude that others are “just showing unhappiness and dissent” and are not contributing in other ways? I recall similar complaints of anti-Vietnam war protests, as the veterans against the war marched (and some rolled) by. What more would you ask of them?

  107. Percy
    November 14, 2011 at 9:08 am

    Rick says, “Our founding fathers would certainly be supportive of your right to demonsrate, but most assuredly would NOT be onboard with the socialist, income distribution that this movement is promoting”

    Then Rick says, “BTW- I am actually in favor of temporarily raising the tax rate up on the wealthiest Americans.

    All the while channeling the founding fathers……..

  108. robash141
    November 14, 2011 at 9:27 am

    Nerd at 8:07 thinks I’m unfaily picking on McVeigh because he’s a mass murderer. Talk about Rebel Without a Clue.

  109. Not A Native
    November 14, 2011 at 9:40 am

    Personally, I just don’t see that being in the military demonstrates more sincere patriotism than taking any other responsibility that contributes to the the well being of your fellow citizens. To me, singling out the military as patriotic is more a promotion of militarism than patriotism.

    I just don’t agree that national security is rooted in military power. If it were, then most nations in the world wouldn’t exist because most nations have very modest militaries that typically exert their force against domestic citizens rather than foreign invaders.

    There are also a lot more harder and dangerous roles than the military, like agricultural field work, mining, and fishing. And a lot more boring and uncelebrated roles like clerks, cashiers, and food service. But all those activities are essential for people to actually realize abundant and contented lives.

    To me, military power isn’t what actually creates national security. The ability and willingness of people to cooperate with and trust fellow citizens is real national security. And that comes from people holding a general attitude to regularly make way for others despite it causing inconvenience, hardship, cost, or even danger. And having that attitude not out of fear of or compulsion by a military force. That’s patriotism, IMHO. Knowing that other citizens in my country are cooperative and helpful produces much more security for me than having legions of dedicated individuals able only to use force to compel.

  110. Bolithio
    November 14, 2011 at 10:22 am

    But NAN, what about empire? WWII showed us how a military power can crush countries with ‘modest’ or less military might. What would have been the outcome in Europe if Britain and the US did not have their super military power to combat the Nazi’s? Doesn’t that draw a fairly strong correlation between military power and national security?

  111. robash141
    November 14, 2011 at 10:51 am

    Not at Native predictably has an utterly narcissistic view of patriotisim He thinks it’s more about the barista who serves his soy latte just right than someone who would actually risk their life on behalf of this country. Sorry dude but your romanticization of the virtues of ordinary labor comes off as really patronizing and condescending.

  112. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 11:19 am

    I have to disagree with you Rob and find your view of patriotism insulting to patriots everywhere from military veterans to baristas. There are many more ways to serve your country honorably than the military and they are every bit as patriotic as putting on a military uniform. Protesters put their personal safety on the line to save lives by preventing or ending wrongheaded wars. Peace Corps volunteers are often at risk of both violence and disease and the good will they build is definitely a national security issue. Is the soldier who serves the corporate interests unknowingly and without question more patriotic than the soldier who refuses to wage an immoral war? What sort of national security is possible without teachers, doctors, nurses, journalists, etc? Unquestioning obedience is a cheap masquerade of patriotism, IMO, and is very similar to the “love it or leave it, no criticism allowed” sort of patriotism.

  113. What Now
    November 14, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Plain Jane @11:19 :
    Excellent post.

  114. robash141
    November 14, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    Nothing against baristas mind you I like coffee just as much as anyone However, baristas don’t sign their entire life over to their employer.they can quit anytime they want and they don’t face the prospect of sudden violent death as part of their job description. I’m not saying that military service is the only way to be patriotic , just that it’s the surest way in my opinion. On matters of patriotism I’d take the word of someone who has served this country honorably at face value much sooner than that of some upper crusty pompous flaccid psuedo intellectual like Not a Native..

  115. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    My experience with veterans must be quite different than yours, Rob. Most of the veterans I know were drafted or joined for personal benefit, i.e. couldn’t find a job or wanted the educational opportunities afforded during and after service. A large number of recruits today are from Pacific Rim countries who join for a fast track to US citizenship. It wouldn’t be difficult to make the case that they are the most patriotic of all – risking their lives for a chance to become an American citizen if they survive. Veterans judging patriotism by military service seems just a little bit self-serving.

  116. tra
    November 14, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    The term “patriot,” already blemished by decades of McCarthyism and other forms of nationalistic chest-thumping and flag-waving, was dealt a further blow with the passage of the so-called “Patriot Act.”

    As it stands, the meaning of the word has been perverted and distorted to the point where, for many Americans, “patriotism” basically means a meek deference to the police state, the military-industrial complex, and the corporate economic powers here at home, combined with a frothing hostility toward whichever foreign countries we are currently being encouraged to hate and fear.

  117. What Now
    November 14, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Well said, TRA

  118. Not A Native
    November 14, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    Bolithio, you ask “what would have been the outcome in Europe if….”. My answer to that is that if the citizens of the occupied countries are patriots(and I think they were) they would resist and rebel. Just as the New World colonists did, as the Vietnamese did, as the Afghanis have done and will continue to do. And many other nations have done which has preceded the eventual decline of all empires.

    No doubt you’ve read that the US has declared that there can be no military victory in Afghanistan unless there is political consent from the people living there. And Afghanistan has no army whatsoever.

    Armys aren’t irrelevant, but they can’t hold a populace that patriotically refuses to cooperate. Now, I’ll grant that a powerful army will test the polulace’s patriotism and ‘turn’ some people with promises of personal gain and being excused from hardship. Those, I call traitors.

  119. November 14, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    I certainly don’t hold with the flag waver jingo view of patriotism . As a matter of fact, I usually detest such displays. It doesn’t take much courage or personal commitment to wave a flag around , indulge in bellicose bluster or to stand on a street corner and make a spectacle of yourself. That’s easy.
    .I’m as patriotic as anyone but I don’t really feel the overwhelming need to bluster or display patriotic bling because I know in my heart what’s true
    Plain Jane , do you have any children?
    If so, how would you appreciate it if I were to begin highhandedly lecturing you about what it means to be a mother.?
    Military service, for good or ill is a life changing experience..

  120. Plain Jane
    November 14, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    Rob, I have not been a soldier and I haven’t lectured anyone on what it means to be a soldier. I am talking about what it means to be a patriot which I happen to know quite a lot about. Mothers, like soldiers, are individuals with different motivations. You can speak as to your experience with mothers and I can do the same with soldiers. I can no more speak for all mothers than you can speak for all soldiers. Some are heroic, some not so much you’d notice.

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