Home > elections > Local man launches petition for Romney fraud investigation

Local man launches petition for Romney fraud investigation

[From Mitch Trachtenberg.]

The White House has created the ability to “petition the White House,” and I’ve started a petition to request voter fraud charges against Mitt Romney be investigated.  Please consider signing and/or spreading: http://wh.gov/K9e .

(The charges that Romney committed voter fraud by voting in Massachusetts after moving from the state are almost certainly true, but Massachusetts has refused to investigate.  Check out this old Rachel Maddow segment from June 2011. Rachel Maddow – Fred Karger Accuses Mitt Romney Of Voter Fraud.
  1. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Thanks for posting this, Heraldo.

    Before people say this is a witch-hunt, take a moment to watch the Rachel Maddow video and think about some facts: Romney owns a $10 million home in Laguna Beach, CA and one in New Hampshire but tells the IRS he still lives in Massachusetts, if his recently published tax return is any clue. If he actually lives in California, he should be paying California income taxes on his capital gains.

    According to Karger, Romney’s wife acknowledged to him that they live in California.

    So on top of any voter fraud (Massachusetts law is clear that if you don’t really live in the state, having an address there is not sufficient to vote there, but Romney voted in Massachusetts anyway in 2010), we can add tax fraud.

    If Romney and people like him paid his fair share of California taxes, perhaps Southern Humboldt kids wouldn’t have to be going down to Sacramento to lobby for school buses.

  2. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

  3. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    god I think I just pee’d myself…….I think it would go better if you said some children had died or something…

  4. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    unanonymous,

    When you’ve recovered control over your bladder, you might pause for a moment to recognize that Chappaquiddick happened over forty years ago and Ted Kennedy died three years ago. There have been a few changes since then; for example, we’ve had an unelected President who got us into a war with the wrong country.

    Romney is a shining example of today’s most wealthy. He votes where he pleases, because he can. He pays taxes where he pleases, because he can. He thinks no one will be upset with him for closing companies and destroying working-class lives. He’s wrong. Just because his behavior is not rare does not mean it is legal.

    It’s time for everyday Americans to start saying “sorry, no more.”

  5. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    chappaquiddick? wrong country? change since when? chappaquiddick, Teddy’s demise to gluttony? wahh? duud you gottta lower the dosage man.

  6. January 25, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Is this the left’s version of the birthers? How about the criminal investigation into the Obama campaign in Indiana, for falsifying signatures. I intentionally used Fox, as it is the flip side of MSNBC. If you google you will find a local paper in Indiana that did the original work.
    http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/12/16/election-fraud-investigation-did-fake-signatures-get-obama-on-primary-ballot/

    I am curious about this link to lobby. If it is used for electioneering it could get the Obama Campaign in serious trouble.

  7. High Finance
    January 25, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    I thought Mitch couldn’t get any sillier.

    But I was wrong.

  8. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    yes, I think he is ready to run for an elected office.

  9. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Yes, I’ll be running against Rex Bohn. From the Fifth District, as it apparently doesn’t matter.

  10. Bolithio
    January 25, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Fraud? Who cares. Once you figure out how to clear 40 million in two years, you are above the law. I love how his 20+ million a year income in “unearned”. LOL Fraud?, what a shock! I want to un-earn a few million bucks!!! Tell me how HI-FI, please?

  11. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    oh it matters for you…….

  12. WhatNow
    January 25, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    If voting mattered the bastards would have simply done away with it long ago.
    SCOTUS has determined that citizens are guaranteed the right to vote but no government is obligated to count those votes.
    I would LOVE to see Mittens skewered right along with Rick Sanitarium, Ron Paul Gollum AND Burka O’ Bomb-uh.

  13. January 25, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Domino, you can’t use Fox as the “flip side” for anything. The Murdoch news corp has been found guilty of falsifying news in every country it operates in, save for the US. However, Fox News has consistently been proven to be inaccurate, if not intentionally misleading about anything in opposition to the Conservative movement in the US.

    And to answer your question, no, there is no “Left’s version of the birthers”. The birthers were a creation of the Fox News Corps, and an attempt at persuading already “on the fence” (primarily) Southern voters from supporting Obama. It was, in its inception, wholly without merit. The Federal Election Commission must vet every since potential candidate before they are even allowed to be placed on a ballot. The fact that he made it on, and then went on to win, proves that he is, in fact, an American.

    On the other side, the controversies surrounding Mit Romney stem from obvious assumptions of impropriety. Step after step of Romney’s political career has been met with “accidents” and “misunderstandings” which lead people to think that, just maybe, Mit Romney has something to hide and has been buying his way out of charges.

    And as far as I can tell, the ONLY person looking into whether or not “fake signatures” got Obama on the ballot in Illinois is Eric Shawn; the only person writing anything about this issue anywhere in the world.

  14. Not A Native
    January 25, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Gee Bolithio. Haven’t any of those timber land barons you phony up THPs for cut you in on their deals? Guess they see you as just a tool day laborer, unworthy of being in the unearned income club. Someday you’ll realize that simply shilling for wealthy people doesn’t earn their respect, or a share in their schemes.

  15. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    damn I forgot how entertaining this site is thanks NAN

  16. Bolithio
    January 25, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    Oh look NANs here to bully. Someday you’ll realize that being mean-spirited wont bring you happiness.

  17. unanonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    “he controversies surrounding Mit Romney stem from obvious assumptions of impropriety.”

    oh shit my pants dude, you know if you assume u make an ass out of u and me…..

  18. High Finance
    January 25, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    Earning $40 million from investments requires a lot more brain power than either you or I have Bolithio.

    But it is not illegal, not immoral and not unethical. But the envious will hate him for it. There was a time in our country, where hard work and success was celebrated.

  19. Just Watchin
    January 25, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Recycle a Maddow story from 7 months ago. Pretty sad……

  20. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Mitch, you weren’t nearly so concerned when Larry Glass rented a bogus “residence” to run for Eureka City Council, were you? Seems both he and Romney pulled residence fraud.

  21. January 25, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    I thought Mitch couldn’t get any sillier.

    But I was wrong.

    Just this morning HiFi accused his foes of being unable to argue on merits and instead rely only on insults.

    Hypocrite.

  22. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    HiFi just made an unintentional statement about his and Bolithio’s intelligence. Romney is showing intelligence like W’s during this campaign. The requirements for making money the Romney way are good connections, a facile manner, good accountants, good lawyers, and maybe average intelligence.

  23. WhatNow
    January 25, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    “Heraldo says:
    January 25, 2012 at 2:26 pm
    I thought Mitch couldn’t get any sillier.

    But I was wrong.

    Just this morning HiFi accused his foes of being unable to argue on merits and instead rely only on insults.

    Hypocrite.”

    “Hypocrite” is an EXTREMELY generous assessment, Heraldo.

    “Terminal Asshat” is a little more accurate.

  24. January 25, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    I was going for brevity.

  25. Bolithio
    January 25, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    HiFi says: “…., where hard work and success was celebrated.”

    Not by Romney!! At least, not ‘hard’ work. He celebrates his financial success which is gained by the hard work of other people, who incidentally do NOT get compensated for it. Indeed, there may have been a time where hard work, that is by the people who actually do HARD work was connected to financial success, but people like Romney have turned that upside down.

  26. High Finance
    January 25, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    Thirdeye, must I explain everything to you ? Romney’s financial acumen is greater than anybody posting on Heraldo.

    Bolithio, you have not a friggen idea what Romney did to earn his millions, it is WAY above your head.

    I repeat, envy makes all of you who exercise it, ugly.

    And Heraldo, I cannot argue this topic on its “merits”, it has none. Sometimes topics are so silly that all you can do is comment on its silliness. This extreme partisan is petitioning for voter fraud and even the liberal state of Mass rejected it ? This is nothing more than dirty politics by the left – AGAIN.

  27. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    So much hate… I can’t stand it.

    Romney is rich, not necessarily bad. We waste so much time and energy destroying the few people who step up to serve. Do you really think the IRS doesn’t go over the returns of these guys with a fine toothed comb. Give it a rest.

  28. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    This is all so predictable it’s kind of fun.

    Coming from the crowd that was undoubtedly upset with Clinton for getting a blowjob, the same crowd that mostly doesn’t have a problem with Newt Gingrich, it’s not just fun but funny, so I’ve already got more than my share of pleasure from the peti
    There should not be separate rules for the wealthy and powerful. One state of residence per citizen seems reasonable, regardless of how many houses that citizen might own.

    It’s really simple — there’s a place that is where you usually sleep, a place that’s the center of your civic and social life. That applies no matter how powerful you are. If, for Romney, it’s Belmont, MA, that’s fine. I don’t know why he’d live in his kid’s basement when he’s got mansions in California and New Hampshire, but that’s his business.

    It’s not envy, it’s not hate. It’s just a desire that the wealthy and powerful actually be constrained by the same rules as the rest of us. I know that’s out of fashion, and I understand why HiFi thinks it’s silly. Massachusetts never looked into the complaint. They probably thought it was rude.

    Now that Romney’s 2010 tax return is seen to show Belmont, MA as his residence, it seems worthwhile to inquire (again) whether he has illegally evaded California taxation while living in California.

    Do I expect any investigation to take place? I’d bet the New York Times is flying in special investigators even as we speak, as a matter of civic urgency. I’d bet the Times has equipped them with special WMD detectors. They did a great job with ACORN, and ACORN hadn’t even done anything wrong. I’m sure they’ll pin Mittens to the wall, except for the fact that would mean they’d stop getting invited to the mansions.

    I think for my next petition I’m going to ask for an investigation into Trump’s hairpieces, and whether they are causing global warming.

  29. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    “There should not be separate rules for the wealthy and powerful. One state of residence per citizen seems reasonable, regardless of how many houses that citizen might own.”

    Don’t tell the States that. They work very hard to make sure and grab their share of a wealthy persons income and have no problem with someone being a resident in more than one state.
    State residency definitions often overlap so that one may find themselves fully taxed by more than one jurisdiction. I can only guess at what someone like Romney spends on lawyers and accountants to make sure everything is legal and he has no obligation to pay more than the law requires.

    The idea that he pays less in taxes than an ordinary individual is bogus too as dividends are taxed twice. Once at the corporate level and then again at the individual level. By the time all the taxing entities are done, the combined tax rate on corporate earnings paid out as dividends is over 50%.

  30. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    I’ll correct myself on one thing. I never should have taken HiFi’s equating Bolithio’s intelligence and his own at face value. That is an insult to Bolithio.

    HiFi, you didn’t “explain” anything. You simply paraphrased what you said before. Intelligence ranks lower than a host of other factors for a successful career wheeling, dealing, and manipulating capital. Most of the “acumen” of wheelers and dealers resides with the professional services they rely on. You can only compare your impression of your own intelligence with Romney’s, so don’t try to speak for anyone else. You’re awed by Romney for no other reason than the fact that he’s in the top 0.006% income bracket. I’m not. I’m more impressed by scientists, engineers, and intellectuals who make only a small fraction of what Romney “earns” and make a more socially useful contribution.

  31. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    “The idea that he pays less in taxes than an ordinary individual is bogus too as dividends are taxed twice. Once at the corporate level and then again at the individual level. By the time all the taxing entities are done, the combined tax rate on corporate earnings paid out as dividends is over 50%.”

    Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit,bullshit!

    That’s like saying wages are taxed twice because they are taxed as corporate income and taxed at the individual level.

    Got any other dumb arguments you want to try?

  32. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    “I’m more impressed by scientists, engineers, and intellectuals who make only a small fraction of what Romney “earns” and make a more socially useful contribution.”

    Like nuclear weapons, carcinogenic pesticides, fish killing dams,,greenhouse gas spewing power plants and genetically modified frankenfoods.

  33. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    “That’s like saying wages are taxed twice because they are taxed as corporate income and taxed at the individual level.”

    Wages including health benefits, retirement plans etc are all deductible at the corporate level. So are interest payments. Dividends are the only thing that is taxed twice.

  34. Wiki-nonomous
    January 25, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Mitty got the money from his daddy:

    George Wilcken Romney (July 8, 1907 – July 26, 1995) was an American businessman and Republican Party politician. He was chairman and CEO of American Motors Corporation from 1954 to 1962, the 43rd Governor of Michigan from 1963 to 1969, and the United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 1969 to 1973. He is the father of former Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney and the husband of former Michigan U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney.

  35. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    4:12,

    First, please remind me what GE’s corporate tax rate has been for the last few years.

    Then, please show me an example of multiple states charging full state taxation on people who claim residence in two or more states, rather than pro-rating based on the number of days a person is in the state. I’m ready to believe there are examples, but I’ve never seen any.

    Romney may well have paid all taxes due. As they say, the crime is what’s legal.

    That doesn’t erase the vote fraud, if any took place. It is sad that so many cases of vote fraud have turned up among candidates for office in the past few years, but it is just another example of the wealthy and powerful not realizing they are supposed to play by the same rules they wish to impose on others.

    You don’t get to voter wherever you’d like — you have to vote where you really live. It’s telling that the complaints tend to be ignored as nuisances, despite their clear legal validity.

    The last round of this “you mean we have to follow the law, too?!” business was nanny-taxes. I don’t know what the next round will be.

  36. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    The specific example I know of first hand is someone who splits time between Ca. and Az. Earned income is taxed where it is earned but because Ca and Az have overlapping residency criteria they both have right to tax unearned income like interest and dividends.

    According to Price Waterhouse the average effective tax rate for large US corporations was 29% from 2006 -2009.

  37. walt
    January 25, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    “Earning $40 million from investments requires a lot more brain power than either you or I have Bolithio.” Thus spake Hi-Fi.

    In the TS this morning, there was this: “American workers. . .on average, earn less IN A LIFETIME than Romney paid in taxes for 2010 alone.”

    The rich are rich because they’re smarter. Mitch, who are YOU to question our betters?

  38. Not A Native
    January 25, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Gee Bolithio, someday you’ll realize that everyone knows that your self serving justifications are BS.

    And unanonymous, cynical dismissals and toilet retorts are really funny, in 4th grade. Grow up.

  39. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    “Earning $40 million from investments requires a lot more brain power than either you or I have Bolithio.”

    Not true. It does require a lot more billions than even Arkley has though. Mitt is going to have to release all his tax returns, including those for the years he made the billions which are paying him $40 M in dividends. We have lots of time figure out how many of his billions came from pension funds which the taxpayers made good on after he looted the companies, after the primaries. :D

  40. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    and of course being smart automatically means moral superiority. Look no further than ENRON executives and Hurwitz.

  41. jr
    January 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Mitt earned most of his money the old fashioned way–he inherited it.

  42. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Bain invested $8M in GS Technology, which had been in business since 1888, The taxpayers had to to bail out their underfunded pension plan after Bain sucked $16.5 M out of them, locked the doors and left the taxpayers to bail out their underfunded pension plan for $44M.

  43. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    HiFi and Mitt have that in common, Jr.

  44. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    “Bain invested $8M in GS Technology, which had been in business since 1888, The taxpayers had to to bail out their underfunded pension plan after Bain sucked $16.5 M out of them, locked the doors and left the taxpayers to bail out their underfunded pension plan for $44M.”

    Sounded damning until I read the whole story on Reuters. Things just aren’t that simple.

  45. Mitch
    January 25, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    5:57,

    Thanks. I hadn’t believed this at first, but it looks like you’re right. I’m surprised the issue of multiple taxation of unearned income by multiple states hasn’t been resolved.

  46. jr
    January 25, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    “The only thing my mother left me was a loan.”–Bobby Bare

  47. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    What makes you think looting a company, mismanaging it due to ignorance of the industry,, cheating the employees and leaving the taxpayers with a $44M bailout isn’t damning 6:50? How is what Bain did to GS Tech different from what Hurwitz did to PALCO? Or don’t you damn Hurwitz either?

  48. Just Wondering
    January 25, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    PJ, what do you do to make this world a better place? Your criticism is always so venemous and damning. What is it that you contribute to be able to throw stones at the rest of the world?

  49. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Cry me a fckn river Wondering. What or how much I contribute is irrelevant to the issue of billionaires looting companies and leaving taxpayers on the hook to pay the pensions for the employees whose livelihoods they destroyed because they are so greedy they can never have enough. If I could throw boulders at sociopaths like Romney, it wouldn’t be enough.

  50. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Per your question at 7:08, PJ, the difference is that Bain actually made money off the deal. Hurwitz got schooled on the difference between natural resource economics and commercial real estate deals and Maxxam’s stock went into the tank years before the Palco bankruptcy. Romney was a very able corporate raider. Hurwitz was an incompetent corporate raider.

  51. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Forget about the price of the shares, Thirdeye. How much did Hurwitz make personally?

  52. Anon 2
    January 25, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    Numerous large newspapers have reported that Romney owns 5 to 7 houses worth more than $10-20 million each. Offshore investment accounts do not quite pay the same taxes and that is why his tax rate is at 15% a year. He is worth lots of money and that was reported in the SF Chronicle and other large newspapers.

    I would like to pay only 15% taxes but then I don’t invest in offshore investments and don’t quite have the multimillions Romney has either. He did inherit money from his dad but has expanded that wealth far greater than he inherited and he was on his way to wealth before that too.

    Have to agree with the comparison between Bain and PL – they were both corporate raiders and if you don’t know what that is maybe you should rent the movie “Pretty Woman” which is a very simple explanation for those of you that can’t understand what a corporate raider is or even much of what is talked about on the blogs about what a “raider” is.

    There would have to be lots of cash available including profit sharing cash and a company that is actually making money and then the raider that has purchased them splits the commpanies into multiple companies and then takes loans and bankrupts most of them after taking all the cash by dividing the cash cows into multiple corporations and then takes all the cash. This is what Bain did.

  53. Anon 2
    January 25, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    If you look up the corporations that Hurwitz bought and split up he made mega bucks as the was the true corporate raider. If you don’t think he made money well he did through various corporate purchases. Some of the corporations may not even be able to be found on the internet as he did this for years.

  54. Not A Native
    January 25, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    What was in your cereal bowl PJ? You’re on a roll, got the Calvinists here dodging and weaving….

  55. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    I wonder how many local Romney supporters there would be if it had been Bain instead of Maxxam who looted PALCO.

  56. Mr Bootstraps
    January 25, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Romney = Hurwitz, only with a mormon flavor. Would you want Hurwitz running the country?

  57. jr
    January 25, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    Two other movies about corporate raiders: Other People’s Money and Heartwood. The latter is the work by Willits filmmaker Lannie Cotler and was filmed in and around Branscomb. It is based on the corporate takeover of Pacific Lumber by Maxxam. Entertaining film staring Jason Robarbs.

  58. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    No cereal, just raw meat, NAN.

  59. jr
    January 25, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Are you a pit bull, Plain Jane? Oh, sorry, I got my Herald articles mixed up.

  60. Bolithio
    January 25, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    NAN says: “Gee Bolithio, someday you’ll realize that everyone knows that your self serving justifications are BS.”

    What does that even mean?

    Then: “And unanonymous, cynical dismissals and toilet retorts are really funny, in 4th grade. Grow up.”

    LMFAO, did you finally make it to 5th grade NAN? I cant believe what a hypocrite you are!!

    You consistently have nothing to offer other than insults. Whats your problem? Why do you hate this internet identity? Becuase I work in the timber industry? Do you really gain satisfaction in constantly being a dick online? I dont get it.

    Why dont you just stop being an asshole and together we can make the internet a better place?

  61. Anonymous
    January 25, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    “What makes you think looting a company, mismanaging it due to ignorance of the industry,, cheating the employees and leaving the taxpayers with a $44M bailout isn’t damning 6:50? How is what Bain did to GS Tech different from what Hurwitz did to PALCO? Or don’t you damn Hurwitz either?”

    Even the management at GS didn’t have issues with Bain. It was a failing company badly in need of investment and Bain took the risk. Was it a good outcome? Not by anyone’s standards but 50% of all steel companies failed at that time. Hardly a Herewits like story.

  62. High Finance
    January 25, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Third Eye, 4.26pm or whoever you were yesterday and to whoever you will be tomorrow.

    The wages paid to you by your boss are deducted by him. When you pay taxes that income is taxed ONCE, by you. However dividends are not deductible by the corporation. The corporation pays 35% tax on those dividends. Then Romney (and everybody else who receives dividends) must pay taxes on those dividends AGAIN. The individual pays a lower tax rate of 15% on those dividends.

    It is not hard to understand if you are open to thinking beyond your prejudices and are not stupid.

    And once again I repeat, class envy makes you ugly.

  63. Plain Jane
    January 25, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Nevertheless, Bain and its partners decided to buy the mill for $75 million. Bain put up about $8 million to gain majority control of the company, renamed GS Technologies Inc. GE Capital, former Armco executives and Leggett & Platt, a major customer for the mill’s wire rods, chipped in the rest of the equity.

    [skip]

    Bain got its money back quickly. The new company issued $125 million in bonds and paid Bain a $36.1 million dividend in 1994.
    “What ?!$” you ask. Bain put in $ 8 million and took out $ 36.1 million one year later ? If that isn’t looting what is ?

    Bain managed to lose $16.5 million of the money buying another steel mil,l hence the safe calculation of “at least $12 million” which means the 8 million back plus $12 million more plus the $4.5 million in fees. Note the similarity between the amount of money Bain made and the $44 million bailout.

    And think of the fools who allowed Bain to control the firm after putting up 11.67% of the money ? I sure would like to play poker with them.

    Read more: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Hzoh/~3/ONEqcFNNSLo/romney-bain-and-gs-technologies.html#ixzz1kXWrWgFr

    http://www.businessinsider.com/romney-bain-and-gs-technologies-2012-1

  64. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    Sure Maxxam made money on a deals that were within their competence – essentially real estate deals that liquidated the assets of companies like Kaiser Aluminum and Simplicity. The Palco deal was a turkey from Maxxam’s standpoint because Maxxam’s model of commercial real estate deals didn’t work with a timber company. Maxxam’s creditors made plenty of money. Maxxam struggled to break even on the deal after interest payments, then eventually couldn’t. Hurwitz had the opportunity to make debt-for-equity concessions in the interest of financial stability, but didn’t because his stubbornness and ego wouldn’t allow it. The old coot was playing chicken against a freight train.

  65. Thirdeye
    January 25, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    HiFi, the 35%figure for tax on corporate profits is a theoretical number that is often reduced to a fraction of that after tax breaks. This is not the first time the deceptiveness of that number has been discussed. There is simply no justification for regarding dividend income (which is about as low risk as stock-related income ever gets) as deserving a lower rate of taxation than earned income. It does not make economic sense. It does not make moral sense.

    We do not have a systemic shortage of capital. We have a business model promoted by Romney and others like him that squanders capital unproductively to line the pockets of the well-connected. It’s not just workers that lose out, it’s small stockholders, holders of retirement plans,and business owners seeking productive investment that see their positions evaporate in the train wrecks engineered by capital manipulators like Romney. Maybe you think that ability to concentrate wealth unproductively makes Romney beautiful. Maybe you think treating capital like chips at a casino is beautiful. Maybe you think demanding accountability for performance of top level management is ugly. Maybe you think evaluating performance in terms of the real economy, in terms ability to generate wealth that actually benefits the populace, is ugly. If so, I’ll wear your “ugly” label proudly. Romney has earned my contempt with the business values he espouses. Warren Buffett and Bill Gates have earned my respect because they appreciate the public responsibility that goes with great wealth. Have fun sucking Romney’s beautiful ass, beautiful boy.

  66. tra
    January 25, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    The old “class envy” red herring has rotted clear down to the bone. After all, among those calling for taxes to be raised on the wealthy are folks like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. And we’re supposed to believe that they’re “envious” of the financial success of others? Then try to fit them into the “class warfare” frame, and the results are equally ridiculous — they’re declaring war on….themselves?

  67. What Now
    January 25, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    Reagan’s 1st budget director David Stockman has written an excellent analysis of the socio-economic chages in the last 35 years. he concluded that because of international bail-outs by the US government in Latin America, Asia and now the US,Europe and any other incorporated entity, banksters and investors consider themsleves an entitled class.
    This sense of entitlement is obvious for anyone to see in our own local “philanthropist” (or is he still claiming residnce in New orleans, or perhaps now Alaska…)as well as the war cries and brainless assertions of pitiful tag along wannabees like Highly Fried.
    Until we jettisoned the 35 pages of Glass-Steagal and turned wall street into a 24/7 crap shoot, the financial industry has grwon from an historic 15% of the ecomnomy to 40%. These investment firms not only control the fed and the treasury they now wield influence on investigators, analysts and government investigators.
    The Heritage Foundation has been giving seminars for years on how to practice class warfare by accusing their opponents of the same.

  68. walt
    January 26, 2012 at 6:04 am

    Bain always makes me think of Bane, the Presa Canario dog who killed Diane Whipple (qv) 11 years ago today in San Francisco. He was trained to kill near Willow Creek for an Aryan Brotherhood treasure in Pelican Bay, and was being kept in an apartment by a scumbag lawyer with another killer Presa Canario. Diane Whipple’s crime was living down the hall, and she paid with her life.

  69. Mitch
    January 26, 2012 at 6:56 am

    Thirdeye at 10:46 wrote,

    We do not have a systemic shortage of capital. We have a business model promoted by Romney and others like him that squanders capital unproductively to line the pockets of the well-connected. It’s not just workers that lose out, it’s small stockholders, holders of retirement plans,and business owners seeking productive investment that see their positions evaporate in the train wrecks engineered by capital manipulators like Romney.

    You’ve summed it up perfectly, Thirdeye. Thank you.

  70. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Yes, I think Romney is going to have a problem with this. People would respect someone who buys a company, turns it mean and lean and invests in plant and equipment and expands markets, and returns the company to profitability. But that ain’t the model Romney followed. He bought companies not to make the company profitable, but to make the company profit himself personally, leaving a trail of layoffs and bankruptcies behind him. And pocketing millions for himself in the process. Not illegal, but maybe the best idea if you plan to run for president.

  71. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 10:46 am

    “Yes, I think Romney is going to have a problem with this. People would respect someone who buys a company, turns it mean and lean and invests in plant and equipment and expands markets, and returns the company to profitability. But that ain’t the model Romney followed. He bought companies not to make the company profitable, but to make the company profit himself personally, leaving a trail of layoffs and bankruptcies behind him. And pocketing millions for himself in the process. Not illegal, but maybe the best idea if you plan to run for president.”

    I think if you look at Bain’s record you will see they were very successful at returning companies to profitability. 100%? No, but one of the best. GS Tech. failed (nearly a decade after Bain got involved) because economic conditions turned against them. Initially Bain did return them to profitability with massive capital investments, mostly in the form of debt. In hindsight, the debt load was too high given the cyclicality of the industry, but had the economy not turned things would have turned out better. And if it had, Romney would be even richer.

    As for the pension fund, yes it was under funded, they always are (just look at CALPERS and even Social Security) for technical reasons (other than greed) that are beyond a blog post. This underfundedness is exacerbated by recessions when the fund’s assets fall in price. In the case of GS, economic events converged, causing the failure of the company at the same time the pension assets declined in value.

  72. Plain Jane
    January 26, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Except Bain was the only entity to profit from it, $29 million in one year on an $8 million investment. They destroyed a company but made 300% profit, looting no matter how hard or in what direction you spin it, and left the taxpayers with the bills. If they had returned the millions they sucked out and we still had to pay for the pensions ti would be a different story entirely, but they didn’t.

  73. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    That isn’t entirely true. The employees kept their jobs and were paid for nearly a decade longer than would have been the case without Bain. 300% over 10 years is around 11.5% per year and the company did do well for quite some time before the economy turned.

    The point is that the image of robber barons who sacked and pillaged is inaccurate. Things are much more complicated in the real world.

    To be clear, I am not even a Romney fan, but until we stop using these hyperbolic arguments we will never be able to trust each other enough to find real solutions to todays pressing problems.

  74. Mitch
    January 26, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Anonymous,

    I agree about the exaggerations on both sides.

    But I’m pretty sure that the Romney voter fraud argument is not exaggerated, just ignored. The man appears to have voted in Massachusetts at a time he had no right to do so, and enabled his vote by lying about his dwelling.

    Ironic, given that the widespread fake-identity voter fraud alleged by Republicans and Tea Partiers almost certainly does NOT exist.

  75. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    If media did its job, more Americans would be outraged by the New Gilded Age and its cheerleaders.

  76. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    I admittedly don’t understand the law that well, but being upset that a former Massachusetts Governor voted in Massachusetts seems a bit much.

  77. Plain Jane
    January 26, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Bain took the money out after one year, not 10. That they then gambled a chunk of their looted profits on another steel mill and lost it is beside the point. Claiming that the workers had 10 more years of employment which they wouldn’t have had without Bain’s involvement isn’t supported by any evidence. With different leadership things might well have turned out differently.

  78. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Sometimes facts are less important that perceptions. So the specific truths of Romneys business background may not matter that much. Rather, that he pays a lower tax rate than his gardener, maybe did voter-fraud, has swiss and cayman island accounts, feels sorry for the banks, and happily chirps about corporations being people (my friend), all that plus the Bain stuff, it paints a picture in the publics mind that will be hard for him to overcome.

  79. Plain Jane
    January 26, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    [In October 1993] Bain and its partners decided to buy the mill for $75 million. Bain put up about $8 million to gain majority control of the company, renamed GS Technologies Inc….Bain got its money back quickly. The new company issued $125 million in bonds and paid Bain a $36.1 million dividend in 1994.

    Pretty sweet. Over the next few months, Bain piled on more and more debt, totalling $378 million by 1995. But they managed the plant poorly and couldn’t compete with cheap Asian imports:

    GS Industries declared bankruptcy on February 7, 2001, and said it would shut down the Kansas City plant, eliminating 750 jobs. In a press release, the company said the bankruptcy was triggered in part by “the critical need to restructure the company’s liabilities.”

    Workers soon found out what that meant. In April, GS said it was shedding the guarantees it had promised its workers in the event of a plant closure….The U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp, which insures company retirement plans, determined in 2002 that GS had underfunded its pension by $44 million. The federal agency, funded by corporate levies, stepped in to cover the basic pension payments, but not the supplement the union had negotiated as a hedge against the plant’s closure.

    http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/01/mitt-romney-vulture-capitalism-and-gs-technologies

  80. Mitch
    January 26, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    1:05,

    Why on Earth would it make any difference that he’d been Governor of Massachusetts?! If you’ve moved from the state, you are no longer entitled to vote in the state. There’s no such thing as Governor Emeritus.

    Romney also faced residency questions when he decided to run for Governor, as he’d been living in Utah for three years, running the winter Olympics. His wife has health problems, and the Utah climate is desirable for the family.

    There are plenty of times when a person of sufficient wealth and power can get away with flouting the law because, for pretty obvious reasons, no one in a position to matter thinks it is worth their while to intervene. Romney’s voting fraud is an excellent example.

    It sticks in my craw because the Republican party has been attempting to use phony voting fraud allegations to disenfranchise poor voters. Well, here’s real voting fraud, and no one wants to talk about it. Ann Coulter, too: http://www.bradblog.com/?page_id=4380

  81. Anonymous
    January 26, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    The unedited original report can be found at:

    http://Www.Reuters.com/article/2012/01/06/us-campaign-romney-bailout-inDUSTRY8050LL20120106

    Too much risk and leverage: Yes
    A really bad manager: Yes
    A looting: Hardly

    Deciding what one thinks and then looking for evidence to support it is backwards. Romney is no devil, nor is Obama a saint. They are just people, probably pretty decent people lumps and all. Has Romney made mistakes? Yes, he has also had successes. Same with Obama. I always hated the way bush saw the world in terms of black hats and white hats. We should be better than that.

  82. jr
    January 26, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Mitch: Could the California Fair Political Practices Commission assist in your efforts? Perhaps there is a similar agency serving Mass.

  83. Mitch
    January 26, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Thanks, jr. IMO, the FPPC is a sad joke.

  84. Plain Jane
    January 26, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Your link doesn’t work 2:21. If taking 300% profit out of a company while increasing its debt 400% in a years time isn’t looting, neither is poor people bashing in shop windows and grabbing shit during a disaster.

  85. Plain Jane
    January 26, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    “Former company managers and workers and independent analysts say that Bain’s decision to pay investors a $65 million dividend shortly after taking over the company in 1993 weakened its ability to survive difficult market conditions at the end of the decade.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/25/us-usa-campaign-obama-idUSTRE80O01X20120125

  86. Plain Jane
  87. Thirdeye
    January 26, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    @2:21, I think it’s a fair statement that in the Bain/GS deal Bain maximized the rewards for Bain by shunting the risks (debt) to GS. Maybe “looting” is too strong a word to describe that situation, but engineering that sort of moral hazard into the risk/reward equation is unfortunately the standard operating procedure for these so-called financial wizards. That’s how billions are made when companies go under. If the Bain/GS deal were truly about making GS the healthiest company it could be, it would have been structured very differently and not as lucrative for Bain. But it reflected Bain’s self-interest instead. That reflects the systemic problem of divorcing the interests of capital managers from the interests of the productive apparatus. It doesn’t matter to capital managers what the optimum on-the-ground result is if they can increase their own return. Concentrating wealth at the expense of on-the-ground results is essentially wasting capital, but it’s what’s in the interests of firms like Bain, and their boy is determined to keep that game alive.

    Thanks for keeping the discussion sharp. Even when we have strong opinions, understanding nuance is a good thing.

  88. Mitch
    January 26, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    The January 30th New Yorker has an essay by James Surowiecki on private “inequity,” talking about the need to close the carried-interest loophole. It also brings up what I think is the most despicable aspect of companies like Bain, which is that they pocket money for themselves while forcing the government to pick up the debts of the pension plans they leave underfunded.

    I wish people like Romney were forced to wear “hazardous substance” labels, like trucks transporting dangerous chemicals. Gingrich is worse, but at least people don’t think “nice guy” when they shake his hand.

  89. jr
    January 26, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    From the current issue of the Anderson Valley Advertiser:
    “If Willard Mitt Romney didn’t exist, we’d have to invent him. And in a way, we did.”–Cliff Schecter

  90. Angelo Dundee
    January 27, 2012 at 9:56 am

    I saw the ‘debate’ last night. Reminded me of a prize fight, where one boxer (Gingrich) is told to make it look like a fight, but let the other guy win (by knockout or on points). Whether Romney knew the fix was in or not, I can’t tell. Nor do I know who fixed it.

    Of course, I suppose its not impossible that Romney just got that much better all of the sudden, and Gingrich so much worse.

  91. Ross Rowley
    January 27, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Walt said: “He was trained to kill near Willow Creek for an Aryan Brotherhood treasure in Pelican Bay, and was being kept in an apartment by a scumbag lawyer with another killer Presa Canario.”

    I’d like to make an adjustment to that statement for you. He was trained near Hayfork and was being kept….blah, blah, blah.

    I’m just trying to protect Willow Creek’s reputation and not have it be misconstrued as an Aryan Brotherhood training ground for vicious canines. Willow Creek is as near to Hayfork as Eureka is to Pelican Bay State Prison in Fort Dick.

    Ok, now back to RomneyGate

  92. Mitch
    January 27, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Thirdeye,

    Back a few days ago you brought up Larry Glass. AFAIK, Mr. Glass lived where he said he lived. He may have jumped through some hoops in order to meet the letter of the law. That’s fine — as many hoops as someone wants to jump, they’re welcome to jump.

    My complaint is that Romney feels no need to jump through hoops in order to obey the law everyone else is held to. If you are a wealthy insider in today’s society, you don’t need to bother jumping through hoops. All you need to do is break the law and act offended when someone brings it up. That seems to work pretty well.

    I’d like to see us start restoring a society where all are equal before the law. I recognize it will be a long trip. All the more reason to get moving.

  93. jr
    January 27, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    Back in the 80s Mrs. Helmsley was quoted that “taxes are for little people.” Looks like we can add laws to that statement.

  94. Mitch
    January 31, 2012 at 9:00 am

    The White House petition site makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to sign — I’ve re-done the petition at change.org and I would again urge you to sign:

    http://www.change.org/petitions/commonwealth-of-massachusetts-election-division-determine-whether-mitt-romney-committed-voter-fraud-in-the-2010-election

    Why does this matter? A long-shot Republican presidential candidate, Fred Karger, presented a good deal of evidence last June that Mitt Romney was not a resident of Massachusetts when he voted in the state in 2010. Massachusett’s treats voter fraud seriously, punishable by up to five years in jail.

    The state’s election division declined to investigate, suggesting strangely that the case had been investigated eight years earlier.

    If the (straightforward enough) facts laid out by Karger are true, Romney has committed fraud. If they are false, let’s clear Romney’s name. But let’s not just pretend the charges have not been made. If we are truly a nation of laws, they apply to everyone, including wealthy presidential candidates. Let’s apply them.

  95. Mitch
    February 1, 2012 at 8:52 am

    The petition at change.org now has more than 30 signatures. (The White House petition got a response that the White House could not comment as it requested law enforcement action. Huh?)

    I’d urge you to take a look and, if you agree, sign it and spread it far and wide:

    http://www.change.org/petitions/commonwealth-of-massachusetts-election-division-determine-whether-mitt-romney-committed-voter-fraud-in-the-2010-election

    Why does this matter? A long-shot Republican presidential candidate, Fred Karger, presented a good deal of evidence last June that Mitt Romney was not a resident of Massachusetts when he voted in the state in 2010. Massachusett’s treats voter fraud seriously, punishable by up to five years in jail.

    The state’s election division declined to investigate, suggesting strangely that the case had been investigated eight years earlier.

    If the (straightforward enough) facts laid out by Karger are true, Romney has committed fraud. If they are false, let’s clear Romney’s name. But let’s not just pretend the charges have not been made. If we are truly a nation of laws, they apply to everyone, including wealthy presidential candidates. Let’s apply them.

  96. February 1, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    Can anyone post a different link to the petition? The one posted isn’t working.

  97. February 1, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Ron Paul supporters, if you haven’t already, please go to VoteRonPaul and make your pledge to vote for him. Take a look at the map that is shown. It’ll show supporters from across the country. Please share the page with your friends, family and other Ron Paul supporters and scroll down to the bottom to like their facebook page. I would love to see EVERY Ron Paul supporter make their pledge to vote for him. We know that Ron Paul has faced and will face continued efforts to marginalize him and even attempts at voter fraud (Iowa for example!) If we could get every single Ron Paul supporter to this site and make their pledge, it is my belief that it will be hard for them to ignore especially when we start seeing numbers into the millions. We would make people’s eyes pop out of their heads when they see the sheer number of us and no one will ever have a reason to say he is “unelectable” ever again. Thanks.

  98. walt
    February 2, 2012 at 5:02 am

    Poor Mitch! He doesn’t get that Romney and the 1% are Übermensch, chosen by God (just ask Hi-fi), and thus not subject laws of the little people. In England the super-rich can buy titles, like baronetcies and lordships which acknowledge their Divine Right. We should do that here, and start calling folks like RA “your Excellency”, “your most puissant Holiness”, or just “your Awesomeness.” Some of their Awesomeness might then tinkle down. . .

  99. February 2, 2012 at 9:42 am
  100. Mitch
    February 2, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Heraldo,

    Your reach is remarkable. Perhaps you can update the top of this thread to include the NEW petition address:

    http://www.change.org/petitions/commonwealth-of-massachusetts-election-division-determine-whether-mitt-romney-committed-voter-fraud-in-the-2010-election

    The replacement petition — the White House site seems almost intentionally designed to prevent signatures, and notified me that it cannot comment on petitions requesting law enforcement activity — has already received signatures from several states and from Italy.

    The Romney voter fraud story is easy to understand. The wealthiest people in our society no longer even worry about breaking the laws that apply to the rest of us. I think they genuinely think the rest of us are rude when we suggest they ought to.

    Like everyone else, Mitt Romney is only entitled to vote where he lives. Yet in 2010, having apparently sold his Belmont, MA mansion, moved to a multi-million dollar home in California and while maintaining a multi-million mansion an hour over the border from Massachusetts in low-tax New Hampshire, he apparently voted in Massachusetts elections by claiming he lived at his son’s house. That’s vote fraud, punishable by up to five years imprisonment.

    If you did it, you’d be in trouble. If I did it, I’d be in trouble. If one of the super-wealthy does it, there’s no formal investigation unless the people demand one. Even then, maybe no investigation takes place.

  101. Mitch
    February 4, 2012 at 9:23 am

    Here is proof that truth can win out: Indiana’s Secretary of State is convicted on voter fraud charges — like, perhaps, Mitt Romney, he lied about where he lived when he registered to vote.

    Did Romney lie? Shouldn’t we all find out? Please sign and spread this petition.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/commonwealth-of-massachusetts-election-division-determine-whether-mitt-romney-committed-voter-fraud-in-the-2010-election

  102. Mitch
    February 4, 2012 at 9:32 am

    Forgot to include the link to yesterday’s jury conviction of Indiana’s Secretary of State conviction — the charges included lying about his true place of residence.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012120203035

    The Republican Party has been expressing concern about voter fraud now — how could we have known they were confident about voter fraud being committed because they knew they were committing it?

    http://www.change.org/petitions/commonwealth-of-massachusetts-election-division-determine-whether-mitt-romney-committed-voter-fraud-in-the-2010-election

  103. Mitch
    July 13, 2012 at 8:50 am

    Meanwhile, Romney’s testimony that he had the right to vote in Massachusetts in 2002 is turning into a wee bit of a problem for the gentleman. Apparently one of the reasons he kept returning to Massachusetts while he lived in Utah (or California, or New Hampshire, or wherever he felt like laying his weary self on a given day) was to attend board meetings for businesses Bain was tearing apart. That doesn’t fit well with his assertions that he conducted no Bain business after 1999.

    See what trouble being a lying liar who lies can get you into?

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s