Home > Uncategorized > UN Acknowledges Legitimate Rights of the North American People

UN Acknowledges Legitimate Rights of the North American People

North America

From The Guardian:

A United Nations investigator probing discrimination against Native Americans has called on the US government to return some of the land stolen from Indian tribes as a step toward combatting continuing and systemic racial discrimination.

James Anaya, the UN special rapporteur on the rights of indigenous peoples, said no member of the US Congress would meet him as he investigated the part played by the government in the considerable difficulties faced by Indian tribes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/04/us-stolen-land-indian-tribes-un

  1. HUUFC
    May 5, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Oh please, make it all stop.

  2. Ponder z
    May 5, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    UN = un American

  3. Mitch
    May 5, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Make what stop, HUUFC? Crickets?

  4. Anonymous
    May 5, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    We Shall Remain is an excellent documentary about the American Indian experience.

  5. High Finance
    May 5, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    The paragon of virtue, the UN, has spoken.

    Actually the UN hired a long time activist lawyer who has sued many times for Indians. This was a set up job from the very begining. Anaya will write another couple of books with this publicity and make a lot more money off this.

    Besides, he is one of the 1% so isn’t Heraldo supposed to hate him ?

  6. Jack Sherman
    May 5, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    Who would have guessed that Highly-Ignorant would chose the word “Indian”?

  7. May 5, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    The crime is still fresh and the victim isn’t going anywhere.

  8. High Finance
    May 5, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    Missed your AA meeting again tonight Sherman ?

  9. Jack Sherman
    May 5, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Kinda late for you High Liar, won’t your dog bite you anymore?

  10. scooter
    May 6, 2012 at 5:27 am

    They can start with the Black Hills in South Dakota. Absolutely stolen property. But first they should destroy that eyesore mount rushmore.

  11. Just Watchin
    May 6, 2012 at 5:43 am

    If they’ll assume all the debt, give em California!

  12. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 6:49 am

    The United States, like various other countries, is founded upon paradox.

    The controlling group, which writes most of the history, is filled with the descendants and co-religionists of people fleeing European persecution. It represents (or claims to represent) an advance in Western understanding of human rights, eventually declaring independence from Europe on the noble grounds that “all… are created equal.”

    That same controlling group is responsible, however, for what can fairly be called genocide and the theft of an entire continent from its people. (And, of course, slavery and ongoing imperialism, but those are separate issues.)

    Members of the controlling group really don’t like to think about this. So, when an item like this appears, it gets only two responses (Anon 7:41 and scooter), except for attempts at humor, attempts at immediate dismissal, and the usual noise from the usual suspects.

    Neglect, denial, confabulation.

    The post, like this comment, is an experiment. But the referenced news item is no experiment, just something that appears to be covered more widely away from the West Coast, where perhaps the history is more recent than on the East Coast and outside the U.S.

    The T-S, to its credit, appears to have carried the story from Associated Press, at least on its web site. Unfortunately, the headline the T-S copy editor stuck on the pre-cooked story was: “UN fact finder on indigenous rights wraps up visit”

    Oh well. At least they carried it.

  13. Gil Yule
    May 6, 2012 at 8:01 am

    The problem is real, obvious and embarrassing for our entire country but this clown’s solutions are overly simplistic and unrealistic.

    “in nearly two weeks of visiting Indian reservations, indigenous communities in Alaska and Hawaii, and Native Americans now living in cities…”

    Seriously? He invested almost two whole weeks on this profound study? I dismiss this article and have a hard time believing the UN would take this “UN special rapporteur’s,” whatever the hell that is, study and conclusions seriously.

  14. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 8:08 am
  15. Dan
    May 6, 2012 at 8:10 am

    Bureau of Indian Affairs – Indian Trust Funds / Tribal Trust Accounts

    Between 1820 and 1934, it was national policy to break up reservations and parcel out allotments of 80-160 acres to individual Indian owners. Many of these lands were rich in timber, minerals, water and fertile soil. Today, 11 million acres of land are held in trust for over 387,000 beneficiaries via the Individual Indian Monies (IIM) system. More than $300 million annually from agricultural and oil leases, mining and water rights, rights-of-way and timber sales is collected by the Interior Department’s Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) for distribution to owners.
    Locating them has become more difficult as the Native American population has become more mobile. BIA has lost track of at least 47,000 account holders. On e reason – more than 123,000 accounts lack Social Security numbers.

    Even many of those who are not listed among the missing don’t receive regular statements, and therefore have been unable to verify whether their holdings and payments are correct. The current trust balance is around $450 million, but several billion dollars more have been lost over the years due to undervalued and/or uncollected lease payments, missing records (the majority of BIA’s leases are stored in places with “no retrieval capacity,” like abandoned salt mines) and destroyed checks.

    In addition to IIM are some 2000 Tribal Trust Accounts, which includes per capita annual payments, compensation for rights-of-way and court settlements, which total $2.3 billion. As with IIM, however, waste, fraud and abuse are rampant. An audit revealed at least $2.4 billion is missing or otherwise unaccounted for over just the 20-year period from 1973 to 1992, making an accurate reconciliation of accounts virtually impossible.

    For additional information and claims assistance go to: Indian Trust Fund Search

    Special Note: A pending class action lawsuit initiated by the Native American Rights Fund over Indian Trust Fund mismanagement alleges the federal government breached its fiduciary duty to over 300,000 Native American IIM beneficiaries. Damages could total several billion dollars.

  16. Ponder z
    May 6, 2012 at 8:16 am

    Lets just lay this fact on the table.

    Pre Columbus, the natives would raid and kidnap. Kill and conquer. If a tribe could pull off a raid, they did it. For the survival and expansion of their descendants.

    So how is this mentality different after Columbus? Not at all, just human nature and survival at work. What is unnatural, is a fake Court of law making up and enforcing fake laws. How far back do you carry this reparation. European to native, native to native? Only the do-good UN lawyers will profit form this fake suit.

  17. High Finance
    May 6, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Your problem Ponder z, is that you are using your knowledge of history and logic to analyze the situation.

    Your conclusion is spot on.

  18. May 6, 2012 at 9:14 am

    If all natives were as Ponder describes, the Arawaks would have killed Columbus and his crew rather than greet them with gifts in advance of being raped and murdered.

  19. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 9:23 am

    ” This was a set up job from the very begining.”

    Yes, the govt. pretended to befriend them, only to kill them in droves. So many extinct tribes. Extinct humans, how about that.

    You proud white nationalists ignore the countless promises that were made that have long been broken and ignored, and that have thrown generations of natives to the curb. You, as the gung ho business vultures you boast yourselves to be, should understand the concept. You amount to ethnocentric hypocrites and nationalist pigs.

  20. QueenLiliuokalani
    May 6, 2012 at 9:29 am

    Ponder, you laid no facts on the table.

    HiFi, with your wealth you could afford
    history education for yourself. Remember-
    you are never too old to learn.

  21. May 6, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Knowledge of history? All that bullshit about tribes “Killing” each other has been dis-proven again and again. Hard to kill propaganda when so many are willing to keep it alive year after year. Also the Earth is actually round.
    In tribal war if someone died, they all went home. Only a fool would equate their idea of “War” with that of Europeans.
    As someone currently enrolled in a Native American Studies class at HSU, I will say that acknowledging the crimes of your great-grandfathers is all many Indian people are asking for.
    Drone attacks on innocent civilians in Pakistan and Afghanistan; using artillery on unarmed native people, not much has changed.
    Oh yeah, except now we have a lot of fancy gadgets, so we must be more evolved…

  22. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Ponder z writes,

    “If a tribe could pull off a raid, they did it. For the survival and expansion of their descendants.”

    Yes, that’s the belief system sometimes known as Social Darwinism. It tends to ignore the possibility that cooperation among relatively close relations can serve to spread genes better than fratricide.

    The thing that constantly amazes me is that people assert no confusion holding Social Darwinist beliefs in their minds the same time they purport to believe in the teachings of Jesus.

    Certainly, when you’ve been born and brought up in a society that values aggression and dominance beyond nurture and collaboration, it’s easy to assume that’s just the way things were, are and inevitably will be. I think Kant called it an “idol of the tribe.” [Correction: Francis Bacon, not Kant. –Mitch] I’d call it the mental goop we’re all swimming in.

    The “eyes wide shut” belief that all indigenous people are angelic is its flip side. People are people, and the way they behave will vary greatly based on their culture, belief systems, and individual personalities.

    It’s hard to know for certain what the different tribes were like in the 1800s, isn’t it? How many native people were writing histories? How many were preserved?

    The only thing that’s for sure is that within just a few centuries of the arrival of European “Christians” with gunpowder, the native populations of North America were nearly killed off.

  23. High Finance
    May 6, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Oh for God’s sake people read your history of James Town.

  24. Ponder z
    May 6, 2012 at 10:03 am

    The thing that constantly amazes me is that people assert no confusion holding Social Darwinist beliefs in their minds the same time they purport to believe in the teachings of Jesus.

    Darwinism is how nature acts.
    The teaching of Jesus is philosophy.
    Why cant you believe in both?

  25. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 10:08 am

    A legal trial involving HiFi would be a sight to behold. First, there’d be the presentation by HiFi. Then, there’d be HiFi’s ruling.

  26. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Ponder z,

    Maybe you need to read a little more evolutionary biology. Social Darwinism is not Darwinism.

    But even were Social Darwinism to be true, what “is” is hardly synonymous with “what should be.” So, if you think Social Darwinism is what “is” but feel Jesus’ teachings are “what should be,” you should be pretty concerned or, at least, confused, that the people expressing a belief in Jesus’ teachings have wiped out so many others.

  27. Gump
    May 6, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Hi-Fi,
    I usually see your point, but have you read your history of Jamestown?

  28. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 10:15 am

    UN, Un American ! I like it, I agree with it !

  29. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 10:42 am

    HiFi studied history at Glenn Beck U and science at Bob Jones.

  30. HUUFC
    May 6, 2012 at 10:45 am

    The UN is most definitely un American, or just plain hates the United States of America. Why else would they “investigate” the USA? To prove what we already know? That Europeans migrated to this continent and took it over? For what remedy? To spend even more money on indians? To further destroy their motivation? To continue to lower their standard of living? To continue to shorten their lifespan? And continue to waste even more money from the bloated ineffective United Nations, Yuck.

  31. S
    May 6, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    There is truth in the fact that pre-Columbian Native American tribal cultures were dependent on inter-tribal warfare but not for tribal expansion purposes necessarily. In small relatively isolated village communities, Nature, social Darwinism, or God, call it what you will has used inter-tribal warfare to overcome inbreeding genes that would otherwise occur if not for periodic raiding, raping and women and child stealing. This isn’t to say there were no peaceful pre-Columbian NAs, there were, e.g. the Hopis and to most accounts, our local Wiyots as compared to Hoopa. So, yes, in a direct way, European and Christian invasion has put an end to inter-tribal warfare but at great cost to NA cultures. NAs do live longer these days though..

    Another thing to remember, especially here on this particular blog, is the fact that our local and quite white environmental activists orgs like EF! and EPIC went out of their way to stop the local NA effort to regain Headwaters Forest as lost ancestral land. The ethnic cleansing of Headwaters by local enviros is something every activist who frequents this blog should bear shame for but of course won’t. In fact, will probably have this post deleted in short order to protect the image..

  32. May 6, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Two attempts at commenting and nothing.

  33. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    S,

    I would like to know more about the conflict between NAs seeking to regain ancestral land and “white environmental activists” seeking to create a nature reserve.

    “Ethnic cleansing” seems a bit of a reach for any environmentalist fight over Headwaters, especially given the history of European settlement in North America, but please fill in those of us who don’t know the story.

  34. Thirdeye
    May 6, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Describing social Darwinist behavior among pre-Columbians does not mean that one is advocating social Darwinism. It is simply describing the more primitive behaviors that occur before societies become integrated by cultural exchange and trade, and show more inclusive eusocial traits.

    Here’s another paradox. The notion of universal human rights that the claims are based on was introduced to the continent (albeit very inconsistently) by the target of the claims.

  35. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    “I would like to know more about the conflict between NAs seeking to regain ancestral land and “white environmental activists” seeking to create a nature reserve.”

    Yeah, his attempted point ignores the ultimate fate of the water. I’m all for the natives, but the natives build big casinos and motels too. Asking for rightful reclaim of stolen land to build a big casino or whatever is one thing. The buck stops when anybody, natives or not, want to foul up everybody’s water. That’s universal, and its important that there are people en guarde to protect it.

  36. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    If the natives had acted more like Europeans, they wouldn’t have shared food and knowledge with the invaders and would have slaughtered them as they stepped ashore. The indigenous tribes around Jamestown voluntarily shared their food with the ignorant newcomers but fought back when the Europeans tried to take it by force.

  37. Ponder z
    May 6, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    The consensus of the UN is that the USA is a 1%, resource hogging, Israeli lovin, bully. And we all know how Barry and Michelle feel about bullies. Now, we just need to move Forward, away form our ugly past. Forward to a better constitution and world servitude, with the leadership of the UN.

  38. HUUFC
    May 6, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    The USA is a beacon of hope for all the peoples of the world, the United Nations are bunch of thugs. As for Israel, the only parliamentary republic in the area, I will grudgingly thank the UN for creating it and also thank my country, the United States of America for ensuring it’s survival.

  39. May 6, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    What the United States did to the indigenous people of this continent makes what the Germans did to the Jews look like kindergarten.

  40. May 6, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    To High Finance,
    Where I grw up we toured the Jamestown settlement (Jamestown is one word by the way. trust me that I know the history.

  41. May 6, 2012 at 7:06 pm
  42. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Mark,

    What the United States did to the indigenous people of the continent was horrible. What the Germans did to Jews was horrible.

    I think it’s important, though, to recognize a difference.

    The European settlers to the United States, as far as I know, murdered indigenous people when they were considered to be in the way, which was whenever they were present at some place the Europeans wanted. If an “Indian” decided to assimilate, they were not murdered, but praised.

    The Germans took a subset of their population that had previously been largely integrated into their society, and actively set out to annihilate it, not because it was in the way, but because it was considered defective. If a Jew tried to pretend to be a Christian, they were caught and murdered.

    There is no useful way to rank the different horrors, but they were different.

  43. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    What about the “assimilated” Cherokee who were driven out on the Trail of Tears Mitch?

  44. May 6, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Cough cough smallpox blankets cough cough

  45. Ponder z
    May 6, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    What about the UN sticking its big fat nose in our business? Telling us who to give land back to. Telling us who to pay off. Aside form outright atrocities, like Indian Island, the natives where conquered.
    End of story. Read up on the local history of natives and whites. The true identity of the murderers is not absolute. Do they have heirs around today? Will the US government come knocking of their door?
    The US government is intent on kissing UN ass to carry out fake judgements on US citizens.
    http://www.prlog.org/11838675-us-judge-forces-three-us-children-to-hostile-third-world-country.html

  46. High Finance
    May 6, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    March 22, 1622

    I am sick to death of know-nothings who claim the poor peaceful indians were the innocent victims of evil white men. There was plenty of blame to share around.

  47. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    In both of these cases, 8:09 and “coughing fit,” I believe the people were considered to have been in the way. I was under the impression that the smallpox blankets were essentially germ warfare.

    I don’t know the history, so I could easily be wrong.

    My understanding is that the German Third Reich was unique in its desire to wipe out a group of people who would have rather fled.

    I’m not trying to minimize anything about the treatment of indigenous North Americans at the hands of European settlers.

  48. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    In both instances the people who were “in the way” were legally dehumanized before they were removed.

  49. Ponder z
    May 6, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Ohhh Mark, there is only one account this MAY have been done. And the guy was a Brit, not an American.

    So the white guy is at least guilty of a conspiracy.

  50. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Wikipedia says this:

    “By 1837, 46,000 Native Americans from these southeastern states had been removed from their homelands thereby opening 25 million acres (100,000 km2) for predominantly white settlement.[4]”

    It’s horrible, and the word horrible doesn’t do it justice. But, if Wikipedia is accurate, these folks were being forced out on behalf of white settlement. The Third Reich was different, in that it set out to murder a group of people, not as a side effect, but as a goal. There were, if I recall correctly, arguments within the German government at the time that resources being diverted to killing Jews were actually hurting the German war effort.

    I acknowledge my near-complete ignorance of the history involved in the removals of indigenous people from their land by European settlers. My main “education” in the history came in grade school in New York City in the 60s. As best as I can recall, what we were taught is that the savages were a constant danger to the pioneers moving West. It’s embarrassing.

  51. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    Jews were blamed for the economic problems and accused of hoarding wealth Mitch. They too were “in the way.”

  52. Anonymous
    May 6, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Jews were blamed for the economic crisis and accused of hoarding wealth Mitch and their property confiscated. They too were “in the way.”

  53. Mitch
    May 6, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    I see a difference. Perhaps I’m wrong. Can’t really say much more than that.

  54. jr
    May 6, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    In the book “Two Peoples One Place” by Ray Raphael and Freeman House they note one Indian massacre of whites and 56 white massacres of Indians for the period 1850-64. A telling statistic.

  55. Jack Sherman
    May 7, 2012 at 12:00 am

    2010 U.S. Census figures reveal that one-half the American people are at risk of entering poverty.

    Once 150 million, or so, realize how many Constitutional promises are no longer being kept, and for how long they’ve been broken, Americans will be crawling to the United Nations crying for intervention and reparations.

  56. Ponder z
    May 7, 2012 at 6:06 am

    Good, let them occupy 405 East 42nd Street, New York, NY.

  57. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 7:05 am

    Wow, I am so impressed with all you rocket scientist’s like Mark and Jack.

    Clowns

  58. Mitch
    May 7, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Does anyone out there know of anyone with Native American perspectives in our local media? Bloggers?

  59. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 8:48 am

    What happened to the Native Americans was reprehensible, but all this looking back isn’t moving anyone forward.

  60. Mitch
    May 7, 2012 at 8:53 am

    That’s debatable, 8:48.

    For one thing, I think it’s always helpful to look at what things have been shoved under the rug. Maybe others disagree.

    For another, I think it’s really hard to move forward together until there’s, at least, some shared understanding of history and of what’s been lied about in the past.

    And then, there are those who don’t think what’s happened between European settlers and indigenous people is entirely in the past.

    Wallowing in the past as a way to avoid moving forward is another matter entirely.

  61. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 9:43 am

    “Wallowing in the past as a way to avoid moving forward”. Very well put Mitch. I see this a lot in working with the tribe and spending time on various res lands – from some – not all by any stretch.

    It matters. We should think about it and try to learn from it, but we can’t fix the past – we can only acknowledge it and move forward.

  62. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 9:53 am

    “I think it’s important, though, to recognize a difference.”

    I don’t except to not let history repeat itself. It has everything to do with recognizing no difference between a large population of people saluting american soldiers or sieg heiling nazi soldiers. There’s a type of personality who will manipulate others in such a way as to eventually have crowds of people celebrating the most horrible of human acts as a good thing.

  63. SmokeMonster
    May 7, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Native Americans need to get over it and start contributing to society.

    How many of you have been deep into hoopa or covelo?

    No white man forced modern native Americans to become crystal meth addicts.

    Stop kissing their asses and being apologists for something none of us had any control over.

    they are given more of an opportunity to succeed in America than most whites are that is for sure.

    Sailors as usual trying to be a sensationalist with his comparisons,get real mark.

  64. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 10:10 am

    …and there’s racist trolls like smokemonster.

  65. SmokeMonster
    May 7, 2012 at 10:12 am

    I know im doing good in my bloglife when my comments are moderated here and at the mirror.

    Most should take a little from both sides but both sites want you to be 100% on their beliefs, either way,neither better than the other,both just as jaded.

    mirror neo-cons are rude to your face and don’t care, H-progs attempt to be smarmy sattirists thinking no one else picks up on their “intellectual humor” both are a joke

  66. May 7, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Well, I still haven’t gotten over what Atilla the Hun did to my people. By the way, nobody offered me any reparations.

  67. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “Well, I still haven’t gotten over what Atilla the Hun did to my people.”

    That explains the ridiculously big stick up your proverbial ass.

  68. Mitch
    May 7, 2012 at 10:51 am

    Smokemonster @ 10:12,

    In my three weeks (?) of being able to post here, one of your comments is the first and only one I’ve rejected when it landed in moderation. I rejected it because, in my opinion, no one could have deemed it to contribute anything to the discussion except unsupported insults aimed at other commenters — not me.

    Various other comments have struck me that way, but I’ve leaned over backwards to try to guess whether anyone — anyone — could conceivably consider them to be worth reading for a reason other than insult.

    If you’re proud of being the one and only, I can only offer you my congratulations.

  69. May 7, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Jeeze Mitch, you protect everyone else and leave me with a stick up my ass?

  70. May 7, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    The Garberville area Wialaki are all hardworking honest people. They are my touchstone of what a native American should be. But then, you don’t hear anything about them do you?

    If there is anything racist about me it would be for the white people stirring up the crap.

  71. Mitch
    May 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    I’m afraid its an impossible task, Ernie. Believe me, the one I rejected was worse.

    Your stick never even landed in moderation. I have no idea how things get there — I’ve landed there myself sometimes, so I’m assuming that too many blockquotes or links is one reason. But there are clearly other reasons as well.

  72. suzy blah blah
    May 7, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    -ew, after making a rude comment belittling the gravity of the indian’s plight by comparing it to how Attila the Hun affected him, Ernie then has the gall to give his “touchstone of what a Native American should be”. i think i’m gonna barf.

  73. May 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Really Suzy? How is what Attila the Hun did to the white people of Europe any different that what white people of America did to the natives? What I was saying, that you missed, is that at some point it becomes history. I’m sorry that I was too subtle for you…

  74. suzy blah blah
    May 7, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    -Atilla lived 1500 years ago. The effects of what he did are largely gone. The indians of Humboldt were genocided only 150 years ago. Their whole culture was demolished. Their homeland was raped. The scars and pain are everywhere present. And it’s not subtle.

    So now you decide to imply that they should “get over it” (like you have gotten over Attila). And furthermore you then have the effrontery to actually commend them for being hard working! Hard working what? Slaves to the american way? Hard working ants on an anthill? Hard working lumber jacks who helped to fall the redwoods? Hey, maybe if they work hard enough they can work their way up to a position like yours, Ernie, and get to be hard working managers of a retail outlet of a large corporation based in Texas that sells electronic plastic crap made in china?

  75. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    Make it right give an indian your house. Lead by example.

  76. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    Who wrote the history books?

  77. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    So how far back in history do we go now to compensate the victims of human banality , cruelty ,greed and injustice? I think Ernie made a valid point. Does the entitlement to reparations stop at 5 or ten generations? Are the Armenian victims of the Ottoman Empire entitled? At which point is one generation off the hook for the transgressions of their ancestors?

  78. SmokeMonster
    May 7, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Mitch- as I’ve stated before in other comments still awaiting moderation on here jane and Joel have both told other posters to “fuck off” as well as other insults aimed at other posters,which you/H let through. Is that because otherwise they kiss ass on here, I believe so.

  79. SmokeMonster
    May 7, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    To the anon that called me racist,that’s hilarious..

    Do you call native Americans that drive around with “native pride” stickers on their vehicle racist as well? That’s what’s wrong with some progs now days,other races can be proud of their heritage but whites have to apologize for actions committed over 150yrs ago…

    Get ahold of be after you read Mr. Diamonds “guns,germs,and steel”

    I will never apologize for anything that happened to a group of people that were neither of us were even alive when the atrocity happened. How cowardly are you?

    150+yrs Ago may as well have been the same time as Attila the Huns reign. The world had more in common with that time than it did with now.

  80. Naigacho
    May 7, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Here in southern Humboldt the Native death toll was %95 percent or more, occuring during a very short period of time. Thousands of indigenous people lived along the Main Eel, Southfork and Eastbranch, Briceland/Whitethorn/Upper Mattole, Mattole, Cooskie/Shelter Cove/Usal. Slain, deported on death marches, slaved out, and taken as housekeeper/concubines. Nearly all of our local “Coastal Wailakis” take their Native bloodlines from the female side of the earliest local families. Many of the family names come from whitemen who were soldiers, or militiamen who fought Indians. Of the actual battles fought to rid an area of thousands of people, only a few are even known locally.
    If you are a local Sohum Native, no organized Indian group or governmental agency will acknowledge you. Universities will take the language and stories of your ancestors, but you, the living descendants are invisible. If your ancestors did not go onto a reservation or enter into a few select censuses you don’t qualify to be an Indian in the sight of the government. One dear friend told me a few years ago, tearfully, that it was finally now ok to be an Indian. In the wake of the ethnicide, it is exciting to know that language revival and basketmaking classes are occuring, as what is happening in the present is most important.
    If, in any area of the United States, 95%+ of a group of white people had been wiped out, it would not be swept under the rug of history as it has been here. Blame must be assigned where it is due… the dark violent side of human behavior that is capable of dehumanizing others, killing children and women as easily as killing men, taking grisly trophies, abusing and raping. Homo violentus.
    Did you know that after the Battle of Horseshoe Bend in 1814, Andrew Jackson’s soldiers cut off the noses of 557 slain Red Stick Creek Indians, and some skinned the bodies to make bridle reins. One notorious Indian killer of Long Valley was quite proud of his scalps and body part furniture, and razor strops, and worse. In Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan white soldiers have taken body part trophies. Who are we that we do this? Why do we allow the glorification of violence in this culture when, obviously, it can only perpetuate it? Is this then the value of exposing the history and old wounds, that it keeps our cruelty before our faces in a way that we seem to recognize better than our daily modern time examples?

    Ugh indeed.

  81. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    ernie and 5:34, let’s say your grandparents and all their living elders were kicked off their land and most of them killed. To ad insult to injury, you have to listen to people today talk about how they deserved it, how uncivilized they were, and how everybody should move on and get over it. How would YOU feel?

  82. May 7, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    I might be a clown, but at least I paid attention in high school history class…

  83. Anonymous
    May 7, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    6:58, I don’t hear anyone saying how uncivilized they were. Hell, the whole are was uncivilized back then. The local tribes very well might have been the most civilized people around, though I think that has been whitewashed to a degree as well. What happened to our Native tribes is simply horrible and sad. I don’t know anyone who thinks otherwise. I personally hate it and hope the perpetrators are rotting in hell, if there is one. Unfortunately, we can’t make the actions of our ancestors any less stupid. We must move forward, honoring and recognizing the past. What is happening in the form of meth abuse, alcohol abuse and misplaced anger, well, I don’t know. Don’t have an answer, but I know the answer has to come from inside the tribe.
    That said, I’m immensely proud of the fact that our local tribes are preserving language and tradition. I think it’s a huge step in the right direction and it makes me happy to read of it and talk to some of the folks who are involved. Honor the past, look to the future.

  84. May 7, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    Sorry to be so late with this….

    Naigacho is right about a lot of things, but some of his opinions bother me. I agree that the Indians are finally beginning to be proud of who they are. I think that any person of any race creed or culture should be proud of who they are. They should revel in who they are. The Indian people should be especially proud, because for the last few thousands of years they are from right here in America. I don’t believe that any of them would wish the people of African decadency to go back to Africa. Nor do I believe that they would send the Mexicans back to Mexico, nor do I believe that they would wish the whites would disappear like they once wished, while they danced the Ghost Dance.

    150 years can provide a lot of changes. Just for the record my 3GT. Grandfather and his son were killed by Indians on his way to California. I have been flat told that he deserved to be killed for being in the wrong place and the wrong time. I understand that he was a very peaceful man and made the mistake of trying to befriend an Indian guide. What was right and what was wrong doesn’t concern me as much as what happened. I have had many more relatives that were killed by Indians. ALL of my male ancestors on my father’s side date back to the 1850’s in California. They were known variously as “great Indian fighters” to the “white scum of the Earth.” So, I know a little bit about people with opinions. Knowing whether they were great heroes or scum doesn’t comfort me much. I once agonized about what was right and what was wrong and I discovered that, not you, nor me, nor anybody else can change history.

    As to the man In Laytonville that killed and scalped Indians and made them into leather. His name was “Uncle Jack Farley.” The reason that he killed the Indians is said that; he put out a warning to the Indians that he would kill ten Indians for any one of his crew or family that was killed. He meant it. The Indians killed several of his crewmen, and he did have the scalps to prove that he meant what he said. Now I know that you are filled with horror. Self-righteous indignation about the “right” and the “wrong”. Which is why you probably know nothing about Indian history.

    The Indians went on to drive off and slaughter some of Uncle Jack’s prize stallions. He and some Laytonville ranchers hunted them down and killed most of them, It was to become known as the “Bloody Run Massacre”. Several of the Indian kids were adopted by the Laytonville ranchers.

    The Ill informed of you will jump to the conclusion that they were held in slavery, but I know from my history that some of the Indian children were highly educated and treated as one of the family. Some even went on to inherit property. I know that there is the other side of that, and Indian children were abused pitifully. I do know the history…

    Before you totally flip out about the brutality. You need to hear the rest of the story, the reason that I told you all this, and no I don’t approve of what happened. I don’t approve of much of anything that happened back then, but I have been a good student. What I heard as “history” as a very young child. So, it was a long, long time ago. The thing that will confound me to the day that I die. Even after the way that Uncle Jack treated the Indians; the Indian people gave him the name “Uncle Jack”! They cared for him and treated his illnesses up until the day that he died. Shortly before he died he was asked to what he credited his longevity, he answered that it was the Indian medicine and the care of the Indian people. The only conclusion that I can come to is that the Indians were a warrior culture and that they respected the powerful. I have no idea…I don’t know enough about history to really understand what happened in the 1860s. Anybody that says they do is either a fool or a liar.

  85. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 1:01 am

    ” I agree that the Indians are finally beginning to be proud of who they are.”

    Drink some bleach already, who the hell are you people?

  86. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 1:10 am

    ” I have no idea…I don’t know enough about history to really understand what happened in the 1860s. Anybody that says they do is either a fool or a liar.”

    Your relative who was killed must have been a bigger bigot than you. You’ll never know what happened back then. If you say you do, you’re a fool or a liar. But I’ll tell you flat out today, as you’ve been told flat out about what happened back then that must be from the mouth of a fool or a liar, that you are a seriously messed up person. There’s more than enough books with pictures and documents from the late 1800’s showing exactly the kind of torture the natives went through. You are a screwed up human being.

  87. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 7:26 am

    So Ernie has provided some stories that attempt to convey his understanding of some local history, and his resulting attitudes.

    For anyone else who had ancestors in this area in the mid-1800s, this could be an opportunity to mention their own understanding of history, and their own resulting attitudes, if they thought it worth bothering.

    My only comment is extremely abstract, and from the field of game theory. Please don’t misunderstand my bringing it up as a suggestion that these are not extremely emotional and raw issues — quite the contrary, it’s BECAUSE they’re such emotional and raw issues that pure logic can be a relatively safe place from which to start a discussion.

    Game theory tries to model behavioral approaches to see what happens when different approaches are used (apologies to any game theorists out there). My point is it’s not just about “games.”

    There’s some support for the idea of “tit for tat” as an optimal way of responding to insult or injury in games where the choice is to cooperate or to attack. “Tit for tat” is a strategy where, if you have the first move, you always cooperate. Then, you repeat back the opposing player’s behavior to them. Two players playing “tit for tat” will always remain cooperative. A player whose strategy is to attack unprompted will be attacked in return, which will lead many such players to retry cooperation. Surprisingly, “tit for tat” turns out to work better than many much more elaborate schemes.

    Ernie is describing a variant called “ten tits for tat.” In the real world, it might be effective as long as the player has overwhelming force, probably including the ability to completely wipe out the opponent.

    But it has two problems: first, two players using the approach will always escalate to destroy one another as soon as the first non-cooperator (or even hint of potential future noncooperation) appears.

    Second, there will always be a subset of the population — those concerned with justice and/or revenge — who will be overwhelmingly motivated to respond to the “ten tit” player even when they realize it is a strategy that will hurt their side as much as or more than the other side.

    I think that’s the “game theory” explanation of “terrorists” and “freedom fighters,” two terms for the same people.

    So “ten tits for tat” is an approach that might be effective for a colonial society (say, one with unilateral unlimited access to gunpowder, or air power, or drones), for some limited length of time. It will generally end up creating a “terrorist/freedom fighter” response, which may lead to the destruction of its advocates, despite the overwhelming superiority of their resources.

    Maybe its worth noting that “ten tits for tat” is always a winner for a parasitic tit industrial complex, until its host society is destroyed completely.

  88. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 7:34 am

    I thought Ernie’s description of what happened was honest and thoughtful. Thank you, Ernie. I have no idea why 1:01 and 1:10 got their panties in a bunch. Ernie obviously was just giving the account of his families experiences for historical purposes.

  89. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 8:25 am

    Ernie’s ancestor’s tit-for-tat was racist murder and terrorism. The Nazis used his 10 (or 100) tits-for-tats too.

  90. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 8:30 am

    “The thing that will confound me to the day that I die. Even after the way that Uncle Jack treated the Indians; the Indian people gave him the name “Uncle Jack”! They cared for him and treated his illnesses up until the day that he died. ”

    Stockholm syndrome

  91. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 8:54 am

    8:25 – All he was doing was relating the story. It is truth, it’s what happened. Being pissed at Ernie for what his ancestors did is a waste of time. Look at the Middle East for an example of how useful it is to look back and forever try to exact revenge. To quote the eternally quotable Tom Waits…”They fill the children full of hate to fight an old man’s war…”

  92. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 9:02 am

    mitch, that’s still thinking about it all like a board game. Apply that way of looking at things to a situation that happened last week in your home involving three people who lived there and neighbors moving into the houses on both sides of theirs’. The neighbors befriended your relatives, killed two of them incognito while making the third be a petty laborer for the rest of his life while living in the tool shed. There’s no longer an analogy to an actual event. The indians were very literally massacred, often thousands at a time.

    It’s like today, with people protesting the destruction of our natural environemnt. We do NOT represent an accurate picture of the state of mind the future will see of us. “The people back then must not have realized the permanent damage they were doing, the people who resisted must have seen the good in what the clearcutters and sprawlers were doing” but nothing could be further from the truth. The plight of the native americans was being resisted tooth and nail (and sweat and blood) by high-society white people as well. The “who cares” crowd speaks like humanity just woke up yesterday to the attrocities of the past. We’ve known exactly what they are, people are and have been royally pissed off about it since day one.

  93. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 9:07 am

    Anon 9:02,

    I recognize that it’s an emotional subject. I’m just not sure that emotional or hateful comments, at least on a blog, can contribute much.

    FWIW, I agree with your description of what happened, and what is happening. When I bring myself to think of what future generations will think of ours, I feel sick.

    Unfortunately, I don’t believe that really gets us much of anywhere, except perhaps thinking more and more favorably of the Unabomber.

  94. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 9:35 am

    “I’m just not sure that emotional or hateful comments, at least on a blog, can contribute much.”

    As opposed to loving comments? The topic is what it is. If the topic was about smearing poop on your face, would you be loving and peaceful? What does any of this blog bullshit contribute,if it ignores what people really tihnk?

  95. May 8, 2012 at 9:48 am

    I think that it is a simple human need to be accepted and understood. Many, if not most of the stories of the north coast history will never be told, or have already been lost because of the reluctance of the listener to give even a small bit of understanding. You must understand that there is no one alive today that had anything, whatsoever, to do with the killing of the Indian people.

    As I try to understand why there is all the hate for the descendants of the early history of California, it occurs to me that it is people filled with the need to judge everything based on their imagined thoughts of how it must have been back then. These are people that claim to be sensitive people filled with compassion, yet they are the first to spew hate upon people that they judge to be “murderers and terrorists”. Not all were involved in the murder. Some involved in the murder were also the same ones that ultimately helped save the Indians.

    I feel that it is important to note that If it weren’t for some of my ancestors, that stood their ground and fed and protected the Indian people, wrote letters to our government officials of the time, and basically said that “there will be no more killing’, there would be no Indian people alive today. Not many people know the courage that it took to go against their friends, neighbors, and relatives to protect the Indians.

    It is disrespectful of my people, that stood their ground, and in my mind are the great heroes of early California history. They (MOST) protected the Indians. The local people here now make great heroes out of people like Brett Hart that wrote a few dramatic stories about how the local Indians were being treated. Hart was a yellow journalist carpet bagger, out to sell a few papers. When the going got rough he turned tail and ran.

    My ancestors stood their ground and saved what was left of the Indian people. And NO, it had very little to do with government programs, reservations, or most other of today’s perceived nonsense. It was one-on-one guarding and protecting the Indian people. Today they call what happened “slavery”. But, by adopting and marrying Indian people they were kept alive. Call it what you will, it was survival. The Indian people did as much for the whites, with their knowledge of the land and the local medicines as the whites did for them with food and housing. Most back then accepted it.

    And, yes, there was real love between whites and Indians back then, the same as today. Many of my relatives are Indian, and a lot of my friends are also Indian. Normally it is not even something that is thought of, they are simply friends and relatives.

    One other thing, it may be regional or cultural, I don’t care, my Indian friends and relatives prefer to be called “Indian”, and they are very proud of being Indian, so it is not out of any form of disrespect that I do so…

    Also, I sign my name to everything that I write, it brings me great humility.
    Ernie

  96. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 9:59 am

    9:35,

    No, I don’t expect loving comments, although that would be nice.

    Who knows, maybe what was happening with “Uncle” wasn’t respect for his “warrior abilities” but was instead pity and mercy for a poor old man who had committed great evil, once he no longer appeared to be a continuing danger.

    I might feel that the best response to a person spinning what I thought were ridiculous historical fables would be to invite them to “drink bleach,” but I wouldn’t think that was likely to lead to further discussion.

    I can completely understand people feeling any such discussion is worthless anyway — but why would someone feeling that bother to join in this discussion?

    Our whole society seems, in the last few decades, to have lost the ability even to search for a shared set of facts. When the descendants of white pioneers talk about Indians having killed their ancestors, without acknowledging that the pioneers constituted an invading, murderous force of enormous destructive power and high tech arms, unwilling and perhaps even unable to acknowledge the humanity and culture of the indigenous people, it does make it seem hard to engage in discussion.

    What makes any discussion genuinely difficult is that the invading force is still in charge, and so is rarely compelled to reflect on the behavior of its ancestors. Germans at least give lip service to the idea that the Third Reich was an evil — Americans of my age were still growing up with the cowboy and Indian myths. It’s easier to evade reality when you are the “winning side” in a conflict.

    I think Nelson Mandela was brilliant in seeking and achieving truth and reconciliation panels, but Mandela was not just a run-of-the-mill guy, and it’s not as though the white settlers of South Africa started out enthusiastic about the idea.

  97. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 10:20 am

    “drink bleach,” but I wouldn’t think that was likely to lead to further discussion.”

    “What makes any discussion genuinely difficult is that the invading force is still in charge,”

    Asking the invading forces to not destroy the natural planet while building castles for themselves isn’t working out very well for we, the people. Your take on what is polite and impolite is skewed in semantics. To humor the bullshit is the biggest insult to one’s intelligence that can be delivered. To suggest plowing through more untampered earth to build an unecessary freeway is a good thing is more than an insult, it’s a statement of intent to cause harm.

    “yes, mitch, we smeared poop on your face this morning, and for as long as we’ve been in charge. And we’re going to continue smearing poop in your face every day. Maybe if you were even nicer to us, we might maybe someday think of not smearing poop on your face every day, and calling you an ignorant sucker behind your back. Maybe, not likely, but keep trying. Don’t give up hope.”

    Your want of discussion is what? To see “both sides” of why poop is going to continue to be smeared on your face every day? The people have been speaking their peace for longer than either of us have been alive. This new age “positivity” bullshit ala internet is mindboggling to watch. How forgetful some people are. The powerful relying on the shortsighted to argue for them. The real people in control aren’t engaging us in discussion. They’re too busy lining their pockets at our behest.

  98. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 10:29 am

    “You must understand that there is no one alive today that had anything, whatsoever, to do with the killing of the Indian people.”

    And if somebody killed you and stole everything you had today, they would ignore your family until everybody involved was dead, at which point their descendents would tell your descendents to just shut up about it and move on, from the comfort of your old home.

  99. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 10:31 am

    ” my Indian friends and relatives prefer to be called “Indian”, and they are very proud of being Indian,”

    Did you tell them “well it’s about time you started being proud of who you are! your people have not been very compromising these past decades!” Would you dare show them your statements here?

  100. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 10:32 am

    “To humor the bullshit is the biggest insult to one’s intelligence that can be delivered.”

    We agree about that. But I think there are more choices, even in a blog discussion, than “humoring the bullshit” or telling people to “drink bleach.”

    “Your want of discussion is what? To see “both sides” of why poop is going to continue to be smeared on your face every day?”

    I guess it depends on whether or not you think you can save the world by “seizing control” and “destroying” those who are smearing the poop. I don’t think I can. Even if I thought I could seize control and destroy the current crop of poop-smearers, I don’t think it would change all that much.

    Discussion, I sometimes think, might. (Probably not, but…)

  101. May 8, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Due to the fact that I have always been an open minded listener, I have heard many stories from local people that had historic connection to the early history of California. Most of the very true stories will never make it to the pages of a history book. Whether you are a “cowboy or an Indian” great evil lurks in the depths of our souls. We are all the same. Genetically we are the same people that murdered each other back in the 1800s.

    The stories that will never be told is the ones that relate how the Indians treated each other before the white man came upon these shores. Somehow it never seems fair. Not much changed, as Mitch said we had the greater numbers and technology. The fact that we had more powerful diseases to offer helped kill most of the Indian people. But, somehow it just doesn’t feel fair to relate the stories of some of the things that the Indian people would do to pick a fight with a neighboring tribe. The truly inspired student could research the inherent brutality of all mankind, and find that the “Noble Savage” also had and evil side. Culture clashes are the largest part of history. The strongest will always survive. To say who was the most “evil” has never been a factor. We are all equally evil.

    It’s just that the more educated of us have learned that getting along is our best chance of survival with peace and tranquility.

    “Anonymous” reminds me of the Indian People that would drop poop into the smoke-holes of the unpopular Indian people to drive them away… Not much has changed.

  102. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:00 am

    “I guess it depends on whether or not you think you can save the world by “seizing control” and “destroying” those who are smearing the poop.”

    That’s beside the point, you’ve sort of already said that. This is just discussion. What I would really like is if the people who continue to screw everything up for everybody drank bleach and died painfully. It would be so great! That’s what I really think, because they’ve always told me, and continue to tell me, that my opinion is worthless no matter how I, or anybody for th,at matter addresses them contrary to what they’re going to do anyway.

    The fact is you and I and just about everybody here are “comfortable”. Nobody is kicking down our door, we don’t have to worry about our immediate futures. You’re all older than me, settling in, coming to terms with life, finding CONTENTMENT. I won’t let my comfort or contentment distort the facts of reality. If I shoot myself in the foot and become my own victim, so be it, I will at least have spoken the truth of my peace.

  103. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Ernie says “we, we, we”…why include yourself in what happened? “We” are not involved, remember? Human activity is specific to the active human. “They” did that, “they” are doing that. “They” should do what is right. Because “they” don’t, “I” have nothing but contempt toward “them”. Nationalism is a bad bad bad philosophy to follow…”we” are expendable blips to “them”, even right here in humboldt.

  104. High Finance
    May 8, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Those who believe in reparations aren’t thinking clearly.

    My Great Grandfather many generations back was killed by indians and I am sure made my family destitue. Should the indians now give me money in reparations for that crime ?

    My Great Uncle of generations back was killed in the Civil War by Union deserters. He was a peaceful farmer and they robbed him at his farm. Should my cousins get reparations from the federal government now ?

  105. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 11:07 am

    What I would really like is if the people who continue to screw everything up for everybody drank bleach and died painfully.

    I’ll take you at your word.

    The sad thing is, I doubt you’d really feel much better, or be much better off.

    And what’s worse, you might turn out to be one of us.

  106. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:12 am

    ““Anonymous” reminds me of the Indian People that would drop poop into the smoke-holes of the unpopular Indian people to drive them away…”

    This makes no sense. I’m sitting at my desk like you just discussing this stuff, right? I am not in any way a physically violent person. But if you want to enter the realm of honest talk with me, I will tell you the sinking ship of our way of life would be better off without people who do nothing but add more weight to it.

  107. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:16 am

    mitch, you’re speaking for yourself and it says a lot about your philosophy about this kind of “discussion”, as you call it. There is only what is happening. You’re entering religious ideology, which is all good but karma is transcendent. Brutal backstabbers are living in the lap of luxury, and will until they die. And their relatives will pick up where they left off. Don’t lose sight of the forest through the trees.

  108. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:20 am

    The internet is becoming (has become) a brain hovel for so many people. They preach that their own eyes need to be protected from that which they choose to look at themselves. Sorry to put a damper on your day, your stupid fault for caring so much. I care more about the health and wellbeing of the rest of our lives.

  109. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:28 am

    “The sad thing is, I doubt you’d really feel much better, or be much better off.”

    It’s completely hypothetical. IF it happened, just like IF a bunch of soldiers killed a bunch of natives, I would feel no sympathy for them. my personal emotional relationship with these subjects is for all practical purposes no different than yours, I just refuse to lie to anybody about it.

  110. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:31 am

    “And what’s worse, you might turn out to be one of us.”

    I don’t mean to ramble, (but I will anyway) but shouldn’t this be capped with “if you’re lucky.”? I WILL be able to say I didn’t compromise what I know to be right. I will become a fuddy duddy just like everybody else, but not ideologically.

  111. Mitch
    May 8, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Anonymous,

    If I’m entering religious ideology, it’s without any awareness of it, or intention to do so. I’m not talking about karma, or transcendence, just the nature of being human as I understand it.

    All I’m saying is exactly what I said — I’m not intending any coded messages, and I certainly don’t mean “us” in any transcendent way.

    Good luck and good wishes. I’ll be unplugging from the brain hovel for a little while.

  112. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:38 am

    ” I’ll be unplugging from the brain hovel for a little while.”

    …but you’ll be back, again and again and again. And you will read the same lies over and over and over again. And you will watch the children repeat the lies that have been said to them over and over and over again. This is now a way of life for every generation to follow until who knows what.

  113. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    “I have had many more relatives that were killed by Indians.”
    “I feel that it is important to note that If it weren’t for some of my ancestors, that stood their ground and fed and protected the Indian people, wrote letters to our government officials of the time, and basically said that “there will be no more killing’, there would be no Indian people alive today.”
    “My ancestors stood their ground and saved what was left of the Indian people.”
    These are 100% bullshit lies, Mr. Branscomb. The lengths you will go to inflate yourself via inaccurate claims is reprehensible.
    Provide a list of the “many” relatives killed by Indians past the two you have cited.
    Since the wholesale killing of Indians occured in the 1850-1860 period, please do inform us of any letters sent to stop the killing originating from from your family, or any evidence in this time period of family members standing their ground to save what was left of the Indian people.
    Proof please.

  114. May 8, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Anon 12;05
    “Proof please” my ass.

    I’m not about to to give you a hit list of my ancestors. I already told you that ALL of my ancestors on my fathers side date back to the 1850s. Most all of them lived in rural areas. Use your imagination.

    More frustration for you… I not going to tell you about my family members that were kidnapped and raped either. You don’t deserve the sweat of of my upper lip.

    We live in peace and harmony now, and I like it that way. Do you have a problem with that? If you do, you are a very sick imdividual.

    Last comment.

  115. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    “We live in peace and harmony now, and I like it that way. Do you have a problem with that? If you do, you are a very sick imdividual.”

    what you’re really saying is you’ve got it good so there’s no problem. you’d cry like a baby in most peoples’ shoes.

  116. suzy blah blah
    May 8, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    To say who was the most “evil” has never been a factor. We are all equally evil.

    -long ago Coyote opened a bag of darkness and it spread over the world.

    It’s just that the more educated of us have learned that getting along is our best chance of survival with peace and tranquility.

    -LOL!

  117. sweet dreams
    May 8, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Anon of May 8, take your meds, cry like a baby, go to bed.

    In the morning, take a good poop. Smear your face with water (poop if preferred). Eat and drink (bleach if you like).

    Make children (or not). Repeat lies, over and over and over again.

    Welcome to life. What you get is on the stage you set. The stage you set is designed by your mind and limited by its depth and vision.

    Sweet dreams

  118. Anonymous
    May 8, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    “The stage you set is designed by your mind and limited by its depth and vision.”

    So it never happened? Everything’s hunky dory? We’re all on the golden road to prosperity? Nobody’s being ripped off? Nobody’s bullshitting anybody? If everybody just shuts up about the problems of the world, the uberwealthy will make us all happy beyond our wildest dreams! We’ll no longer just be their sheep, we’ll be their PET sheep!

    Try a few handfulls of sleepers and a bottle of whatever alcohol you’ve already been drinking. Sweet dreams indeed.

  119. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 7:25 am

    Anonymous 11:18,

    A few things.

    First, I don’t think anyone here is claiming “it never happened.” People are minimizing it, diluting it, and trying to keep it in the box of the past. But given that no one is denying it entirely, that’s a starting place.

    Second, it seems to me that you are suggesting that what is happening today is due to the very same people who are responsible for what happened to indigenous people. You probably mean “the same types of people.”

    Coyote quote aside, we all have some of that in us, and a good way to maintain denial about that is to be hyper-focused on its presence in the other. Solzhenitsyn put it perfectly: “But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

    Are particular individuals from the past more responsible for harm than other particular individuals? Of course. Can whole societies take on the blame for their past behaviors? That’s less clear to me, but it’s a different, more complicated question than whether return of stolen lands can help right past injustices.

    Finally, it seems to me very likely that there were some white settlers who attempted to treat indigenous people with decency — even during the Third Reich in Germany, there were heroic people who hid Jews, risking their own lives to save them.

    I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to mix together what happened then with what si happening now, unless it’s to make the general observation that people with power will often screw people without power, sometimes even denying to themselves that they are so doing. That’s a good reason to work for justice, but it’s an even better reason to try to look for those tendencies in oneself, lest one turn out to be, even against one’s public wishes, the next round of the very same process.

  120. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 7:59 am

    I hope you are in my FEMA camp Mitch… I will enjoy the conversations.

  121. roger ebert
    May 9, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Yes, what natives were doing to other natives pre-columbus was horrible, certainly as bad or worse than after europeans arrived. I saw it in the Mel Gibson movie apacalypto, and he wouldn’t put out a movie that was racist or portrayed christians inaccurately.

  122. High Finance
    May 9, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Oh for God’s sake, read some history.

  123. sweet dreams
    May 9, 2012 at 10:18 am

    No, 11:18. I am speaking to your adolescent angst at the world. Spitting and twirling does nothing the change what you are lashing out at. See how you misread and misinterpreted wrong? That’s what happens when your brain is in a cage, as yours is. Relax. Find some equanimity. It will help you.

  124. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 10:22 am

    sweet dreams, go back to sleep.

  125. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 10:24 am

    mitch, you’re off on some remarkable philosophical tangent along with sweet dreams. rome wasn’t built in a day. (it burned in one though, right?)

  126. Percy
    May 9, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Would that be history as approved by the Texas Board of Education?

  127. roger ebert
    May 9, 2012 at 10:32 am

    I’d suggest you read your own history, but only if you want to actually know something.

    The doctrine of discovery promulgated by the pope and other european christian sects declared it ok for christians to take what they wanted, by force or other means, from non-christians, with essentially no rules. Atrocities were sanctioned by the various european governments and churches as long as some of the booty got kicked back to the church and to royalty. How do you think europeans rationalized taking over the rest of the world without conscience? The ‘why’ of it was simple greed mixed with religious blessing.

    That was how it all started and how you ended up here enjoying the inheritance your forebears left you. I understand that you may not want to dwell on it. But to not even know about it, and how it effects our world even today, seems like willful ignorance.

  128. Percy
    May 9, 2012 at 10:37 am

    Willful ignorance is a great term and describes a whole lot of what is going today and in the past. Hopefully, some will learn from their mistakes.

  129. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 10:51 am

    Anonymous 10:24,

    Yes, Rome burned in a day. That’s exactly the problem. At least in my opinion, that’s no philosophical tangent.

    It’s not hard to spot our hypocrisies, failures, and unfair dismissals. Really, I think it takes work to NOT see them, work that only highly motivated individuals like Hi Fi are willing to put in.

    The problem is, it’s much easier to destroy and tear down an admittedly far-from-ideal system than it is to erect one that’s better.

    I’ve noticed my own opinion of the relative ease of building vs. destroying has changed as I’ve grown older — I always felt building was harder, but every decade I get more and more amazed that anything good happens at all, given the imbalance in difficulty between tearing stuff down and building stuff up.

    Yes, the “system” we have today is awful and unfair. I believe President Obama (for example) knows that. But he doesn’t want to see the millions of deaths and generations of harm that would come about if the nation were to go into civil war.

    Many younger people may imagine some weak caricature of the disaster that takes place when a society fails.

    But others have a more realistic idea of the true impact of societal failure. So, as I understand it, people of good will often end up focused on compromise against their basic values, trying to work within a bad system to make it better, rather than trying to tear the system down. It doesn’t usually work, but neither does tearing the system down.

    You might want to study the history of the two Russian revolutions, and then read about Stalinism. The “good guys” rarely live more than a few years after their revolutions, and they are supplanted by colleagues who possess so little self-understanding that they try to remake the world with themselves in charge. They then make the decisions about what is to be done, never noticing that they’ve become the next round of despots.

  130. High Finance
    May 9, 2012 at 10:56 am

    The point is, dear Roger, there were plenty of atrocities committed by BOTH sides. Committed by both sides before, during and after the colonial period.

    Why is that so hard for you to admit or understand ?

  131. yep
    May 9, 2012 at 10:58 am

    “willful ignorance”

    yep. creating comfort in one’s own mind, loops of conjecture around very factual matters. The land, sea and sky continue to be hurt, and it’s like we’re supposed to make people happy when discussing it, or ignore it, or come to some justified conclusion about it, or concede that there’s at least some sense in it regardless based on the perspective of the literal, physical human beings who are making these decisions. A cognizant understanding of time on this planet, and how we fit into it, is a rare thing.

  132. A Little Matter of Genocide
    May 9, 2012 at 10:59 am

    High Hater. Have you had a chance to read “A Little Matter of Genocide”?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Matter_of_Genocide

  133. nope
    May 9, 2012 at 11:01 am

    “The problem is, it’s much easier to destroy and tear down an admittedly far-from-ideal system than it is to erect one that’s better.”

    Nope. Defeatist attitude. Your neighbor doesn’t HAVE to dump his garbage on your lawn. He can stop tomorrow. Your neighbor is what people who are well endowed with common sense refer to as an “asshole”.

  134. uhhh...
    May 9, 2012 at 11:02 am

    “Why is that so hard for you to admit or understand ?”

    that doesn’t have anything to do with this specific issue, how it came to be, or its resolve.

  135. roger ebert
    May 9, 2012 at 11:05 am

    No, not hard at all to admit individual atrocities.

    Now, how about you admit that pillaging of the planet was sponsored by the church and european royalty? And that the benefits of that pillaging have accrued primarily to europeans and their descendants today?

  136. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 11:07 am

    nope,

    “Your neighbor doesn’t HAVE to dump his garbage on your lawn. He can stop tomorrow. Your neighbor is what people who are well endowed with common sense refer to as an “asshole”.”

    Yes, if your neighbor is dumping his garbage on your lawn, you have an asshole for a neighbor.

    What is your response going to be? If you propose going to the police or city council, that doesn’t really apply, because in the situation we’re talking about, your neighbor is the police AND the city council.

    So what’s next? Are you going to dump the garbage back? That will get his attention, for sure, but it might land you in jail, given that he’s the police and the city council (and the guy who appoints the judges).

    So what’s next? Shame him? OK, but what if the other neighbors just think you’re a pain-in-the-ass, because they all know the guy from their country club, and they know what a stand-up guy he is, buying ice-cream cones for all their kids and always ready with a great joke.

    So what else? Are you going to take violent action against him? OK. As long as you understand what that entails. I don’t think you do.

  137. nope
    May 9, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Mitch, I haven’t once claimed to be the answer guy. I’m just another person who isn’t afraid to say rome is burning more and more everyday without sugar coating it. It’s like you feel YOU have to find some kind of peace in your mind about it, that isn’t provided when the facts are looked at without philosophical context. I think it would be great if your neighbor drank bleach and died painfully. Beyond that, it’s not within my power to do anything just as it’s not within yours. That’s NOT saying it’s difficult to turn things around, it’s saying there are some very real assholes on this planet and we owe it to eachother to never forget the seriousness of what they’re doing to us all.

  138. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Well, then, nope, we’re probably in pretty complete agreement.

    Except I probably think things are worse than you do.

  139. nope
    May 9, 2012 at 11:23 am

    …more to the point, mitch, the constant sugar coating and philisophical justification of the horrible acts that are being commited by people who sit behind desks and call all these shots is counterproductive. If your neighbor was dumping his garbage on your lawn every day, and your humane attempts to stop him fail every time, and nothing was being done about it otherwise, and when it came time to discuss the matter everybody tried to sugarcoat his behavior with philisophical justifications before doing nothing about it themselves…you can elaborate from there.

  140. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 11:27 am

    I’ve got to run, but I’m curious how you think I’m sugar-coating anything.

    It seems to me I’m just warning that, without some serious understanding of human nature, the sugar being promised is likely to taste as bad as what we’ve got today, or even worse.

  141. nope
    May 9, 2012 at 11:30 am

    “Except I probably think things are worse than you do.”

    maybe so. For whatever reason, the person you have become isn’t “aggressive”, you probably provide comfort to those who really know you with your mere presence. That’s a good thing. It’s a natural draw to want to be like that. I am very passive myself, but I place a huge difference between talk and action regarding how we are all governed by people we will never, ever even see. I won’t even see any of humboldt’s political assholes in person, but they’re changing the landscape of my backyard forever. If you’re afraid to say what you really believe, it’s everybody’s loss.

  142. nope
    May 9, 2012 at 11:33 am

    …and re: human nature, there are starving people in this world who are eating other human beings. “high finance” exists. Human nature is exactly my point. “They” don’t give a FUCK about “you”. They really really REALLY don’t. You’ve met some born and bred racists in your life, I’m sure. Think you could change their mind? It’d be better for everybody if they didn’t exist, don’t you think? That’s NATURE nature.

  143. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 11:57 am

    How are you sugar coating it, mitch? I’m more interested in the point you are tyring to make to me.

    ” without some serious understanding of human nature, the sugar being promised is likely to taste as bad as what we’ve got today, or even worse.”

    …is philisophical sugarcoating. there’s no substance to that quote whatsoever. It’s a hiccup, a speedbump. If you say “yes, but” every time somebody makes a valid point, what’s being accomplished? It’s like the internet shills who barf all over the internet that poor people need walmart, that clearcutting our forests is necessary, etc. etc. etc. they say it over and over and over again. And who, specifically, are you talking about in that quote? Are YOU susceptible to the kind of corruption we’re discussing?

  144. suzy blah blah
    May 9, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    -you just gotta love how nonchalantly Mitch puts the Coyote quote “aside”. Kinda reminds me of how easily the whole native american culture was “put aside”.

  145. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    It’s bad enough we’re all addicted to electricity, gasoline, running water and processed food…the line CAN be drawn RIGHT NOW regarding where any individual stands morally. There IS a right and a wrong. The perpetual grey zone is great for slowing down the change that desperately needs to happen. The more people who refuse to compromise some basics rights over wrongs, the better….no if ands or buts about it. It was my point earlier about a nation of people being fooled into sieg heiling genocide being no different than the people alive today who patriotically salute the same thing, sugarcoated with all the latest greatest tried and true propaganda techniques. (internet)

  146. What Now
    May 9, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    There appear to be multiple threads unraveling here and some opinions that are based on fantasies of “noble savages” vs. “who owes what to whom” and the pathological syndrome whereby exploiters and their descendants come to feel victimized.

    In the pre-Columbian period there were countless nations and countless systems of self-government ranging from warrior-kings, hereditary monarchies, quasi-democratic counsels and some examples of egalitarianism that would have seemed radical to the Committees of the French revolution.
    These societies ranged from hunter gatherers, raiders, and dependencies all the way to established empires.

    The idea of “noble savages” “living in harmony with the land” may have had SOME truth in SOME instances, but to insist that there were no warring tribes before the europeans arrived is to ignore all available evidence.
    For example,the Sioux wars appear to have raged for generations and crossed the continent from the Great Lakes to Pacific Northwest and back again several times. Some tribes were reduced to eating their dogs (which contrary to ‘Little Big Man”, was NOT the standard more of most tribes).
    The Cherokee nations had many tribes that had been forcibly assimilated as their own history recounted.
    And of course, there’s always the Pawnee who seemed to delight in war and subterfuge.

    The issue with return of lands and reparations is based on treaty.
    The Supreme Court of The United States identified the U.S. government’s relationship with tribal nations as “a curious form of internal colonialism” early in the 19th century in a dispute with the state of Georgia over which governmental body (state or federal) was entitled to the spoils of seized lands.
    In a later ruling, this same august body of thieves and apologists for genocide declared that since the U.S. government routinely broke treaties with foreign nations there was no reason to believe that a higher standard should be upheld in dealing with the ‘dependent creatures” who were, at that time, wards of the state.
    The “dependency” status was only changed in 1926 when tribal members were given the franchise out of international embarrassment.

    What many tribes and organizations have been pursuing since the middle of the last century is judicial remedy to force governmental bodies to honor their treaties and commitments. Using the american system of jurisprudence to obtain justice appears to be a threat to those who’ve already abused this same system for personal advantage and is, of course, a threat to a narcissistic culture where “caveat emptor’ and the cowboy mentality of “might makes right” is ascendent.

    For perspectives and historical background on issues of tribal sovereignty, broken treaties, legal obligations, and competing views of reparations and reconciliatiopn I would suggest the following reading material:

    “Custer Died For Your Sins”, “God Is Red”, “Red Earth, White Lies (by Rev Dr Vine Deloria Jr.),
    “Still Waters Run” (by Angie Debo),
    “The War On The Weak”(by Edwin Black),
    and
    “On the Justice of Roosting Chickens”.(by Ward Churchill).

  147. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    “The issue with return of lands and reparations is based on treaty.”

    I stole your bike. I will neither give it back to you nor compensate you for your loss until you…come to some sort of compromise with me??? You’ve said nothing to do with the issue, which is much more along the lines of practicing what you preach. “Our” government isn’t doing that. “Our” government is continuing to kill natives and plunder everybody’s resources.

  148. suzy blah blah
    May 9, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    There IS a right and a wrong.

    -yep, and the more insensitive one with the most greed and power most often wins.

  149. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    “Our” government is continuing to kill natives and plunder everybody’s resources.

    Huh?

  150. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    11:57 asks,

    Are YOU susceptible to the kind of corruption we’re discussing?

    Absolutely. I’ve done things that make me cringe when I think about them.

  151. Mitch
    May 9, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    nope @11:30,

    the person you have become isn’t “aggressive”

    My persona on the Herald isn’t aggressive. I doubt you know much about me. I can be very aggressive, I just don’t enjoy it, and feel like a fool afterwards. It’s usually self-destructive, too.

    Blogs are places where you can, if you wish, compose what you want to say before saying it. Real life, alas, isn’t.

  152. suzy blah blah
    May 9, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    -everyone, even Mitch, has a “little Hitler” inside of them. But it’s the one’s who are in denial, unlike Mitch, who’s little Hitler can get to growing stronger and larger, until it’s so big that it’s no longer able to be corralled inside, but manifests itself in the world.

  153. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    “-everyone, even Mitch, has a “little Hitler” inside of them.”

    hmmm…I believe in virtuous spirits. They can be fooled into behaving “badly” but will never intentionally cross a line. To understand how an “evil” mind justifies itself doesn’t mean one has it within them to behave as such. It’s all “talk”, that’s my big point. It would sure be great if those shady motherfuckers drank bleach and died. I won’t condone the activity in real life whatsoever. They’re not going to drink bleach and nobody’s going to force them to drink bleach. Or will they? Completely out of my hands. IF it happened (fact from fiction, the infinite now, REALITY) what would YOUR reaction be? Was it a good thing Hitler died? All that really DID happen, and an opinion is allowed either way. Why live in fear of “thinking wrong” while still knowing we are “doing right”. It’s like the thought police…1984 stuff…how easily it’s forgotten that these philosophies…this exact discussion…has been repeated for decades. Walmart’s coming to town? How has the discussion changed from twelve years ago? It hasn’t. Understanding that there IS a right and a wrong, the people who support walmart have NO evidence that what they say (fiction) expresses itself in active reality (fact) surrounding the events that have transpired over the last twelve years, whereas the people who oppose walmart can point to the events that have transpired over the last twelve years (fact) to support what they say (fiction, more resembling fact than the fiction of walmart supporters).

    …etc Siht, wtf.

  154. suzy blah blah
    May 9, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    To understand how an “evil” mind justifies itself doesn’t mean one has it within them to behave as such. It’s all “talk”, that’s my big point. It would sure be great if those shady motherfuckers drank bleach and died.

    -that’s what i mean by denial.

  155. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    “-that’s what i mean by denial.”

    And that’s what I mean by separating fact from fiction. Denial of what?

  156. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    (point is, suzy, you’re speaking hypothetically just like mitch. Philosophy…”karma”…karma for who? Not the ones who get away with it.)

  157. Naigacho's dog
    May 9, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    During the time of the “War on Indians” there were far more Indians killed by other Indians than white men killed by Indians, far more. A few of the “larger” fights were at Horse Canyon on the Northfork of the Eel where a few white ranchers from Covelo took a number of Concow out to punish some ‘gun Wailakis’ who had raided and stolen horses from Round Valley. Although instructed not to hurt women and children, in the bloodlust of battle, the Concows slaughtered indiscriminately. Their Chief was very very upset afterwards as traditional hatreds had erupted out of control. One band of the Redwood Indians who had been betrayed by General Kibbe under the white flag of truce, marched to the coast and shipped to the Mendocino Reservation, did escape but were nearly all killed by the Cahto whose turf they were crossing. Similarly a group of Chilula escaped from the Mendocino Reservation but were attacked while crossing Lassik country, starting a small war that involved revenge raids on the Lassiks, with the help Hupa allies. Jack Woodman described five fights that he had been part of, only one of which was on whites. Anthropologists have described the war practices of some of the southern Athabaskans as a limited warfare where after some severed head taunting, fighting ensued, but deaths were kept to a minimum and everyone went home. The causes for such fights seem to be boundary disputes, or the killing of tribe or tribelet members. From what I have read, some of the Natives in Sohum/Normendo had far less compunction about killing other Native women and child than killing white women and children. There were very few recorded attacks of Indians on women and children in our area, particularly compared to the “Nits make lice” mentality of the worst of the white “warrior thugs”. Bodily mutilation did occur, which to some extent was done in the belief that this would prevent the deceased from recognizing the killer in the next life. I know of no such philosophy informing the bodily mutilations of the Larrabees, Flemings (he had a row of skulls lining his path), or Mr. Farley. The dominant white race not only committed genocide and ethnocide on the local tribes/tribelets, but clearly “outsavaged the ‘savages”’.
    What has occurred here on the northcoast is part of our cultural denial, something I believe has roots in generational children of alcoholic syndrome and Christian repression. We are taught about the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee massacres, but who has been told of the massacres in our area? 600 hundred Tolowas killed at one time, and a few hundred another time. Yukis slaughtered by the hundred in a weeks time over a long period….
    Opening the shame closet is important work and must be done to honor the victims more than point fingers at the guilty. I think it was Jung who said that wholeness comes from facing and acknowledging one’s dark side, our work as individuals and a culture and a species. Nice ideal. Thanks a heap Coyote.

  158. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    “During the time of the “War on Indians” there were far more Indians killed by other Indians than white men killed by Indians,”

    That’s not saying anything…the numbers of indians killed by white men was more than those combined…”far more”….and your diatribe has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Indians killing other indians? Wasn’t anybody else around. Whereas most of the indians sustained the same tribes within the same boundaries for at least an eon, the society built (and being built) by the white man is a rapidly sinking ship that includes toxic garbage for every future generation to have to deal with. BIG difference in what you’re alluding to by pointing out the obvoius, that native americans had their “wars” too.

  159. suzy blah blah
    May 9, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    -being in denial is not fiction or philosophy. It’s psychiatry. And i’m talking about it being used as a part of a defense mechanism which projects your own evil onto the other. So when you say, “To understand how an “evil” mind justifies itself doesn’t mean one has it within them”, i see that as being an obvious illustration of the kind of denial that i referred to in my previous comment about people not recognizing evil inside themselves and the consequences of that.

  160. Naigacho's dog
    May 9, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Between this and my previous post as Naigacho I thought that I had made the genocidal scale of the number of Native people killed by whites obvious. My comment was saying something, as you pointed out, the obvious, “that native americans had their ‘wars’ too”, though the scale of violence was usually much smaller. I meant to support the notion of the darkness of violence (my values) in all hearts, and probably didn’t communicate my thoughts well. Don’t mind your criticism a bit. Sometimes in writing a long diatribe and not checking to see who had added comments before posting, you jump out of thread focus, or maybe it was a crappy post.

  161. May 9, 2012 at 11:09 pm

    Naigacho

    I know that I said that I would no longer post on this thread, but “Naigacho’s Dog” drew me out. I have been raised with the stories of the settling of the north coast. I was lucky enough to have heard the stories with no punches pulled. Complete with all the graphic horror. The problem of telling history stories today is that nobody can get past the horror and try to get to the real history. I have often said that I know at least five versions of every history story, but after you hear enough of them, you can get a pretty good idea of the truth that is inherent in all of them. Sadly, I only poorly remember most.

    Reading Naigacho’s tale of the settler stories gave me chills. The reason that it gave me chills is because he is relating versions of stories that I heard as a small child. The thing that he didn’t include is actually how horrible all of mankind treated each other back then. He is obviously one with deep history on the north coast, or, is an open minded researcher. It is with a heavy heart that I say that he probably shares the burden of knowing the true horror of what really happened in the history of the north coast. Most of it is unprintable. My apologies to Naigacho for doubting your knowledge. You told about things here that I’ve only heard parts of, and I deeply suspect that most of my knowledge of “Uncle Jack Farley” came from you.

    I appreciate the respect that you give the people of the North Coast, even knowing their history. You probably know that not all stories can be told. History can be very damaging to the survivors. Five to eight generations later is a difficult time to change things.

    I have often said that “you can’t judge what happen back then by who we are now”. But as you know we have 100% the same genetic make up. The only change is better law enforcement and education. The good news is the killing has dropped way off.

  162. Anonymous
    May 9, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    suzy, I agree completely. The point I was trying to make is that there’s no context, and for all practical purposes it’s all conjecture. When I comment, I (try to) focus on the actual physical activity involved, and what physical activity should result as best I can describe. And tablespoons full of opinion.

    Nacho Dog, guilty as charged, I misread your tone as being along the lines of “they did it too, so what’s the difference, get over it, move on, etc.” like other commenters above.

  163. Mitch
    May 10, 2012 at 6:51 am

    Naigacho (and dog),

    Do you know if the history you begin to describe is written down anywhere? Seems like that would be very worthwhile; perhaps not for our time, but for a possible future.

  164. Naigacho's dog
    May 10, 2012 at 7:48 am

    I woke up with a little dread about facing the reading/listening audience this morning, but look, genial comments, 3 in a row! Is this a record here Heraldo? :)
    Thanks for the acknowledgements. I was trying to add local historical context to the thread, but point the finger at the darkside of human behavior…from a white windbag perspective.
    Mitch, I am very very pregnant with such a book, and tired of “carrying” it around, it feels like quintuplets. Herk Shriner took 16 years to write his account of the Bridge Gulch massacre, hope mine doesn’t go that long, but tracking down primary sources takes time. I may lift a quote from his Thunder Up the Creek as part of my title. He had a few sensitives go to the massacre site and listen. They were informed to “Tell all whites”.

    (Ernie, do I know you? I feel like we may have met? :)

  165. Mitch
    May 10, 2012 at 8:02 am

    Naigacho,

    Wonderful. Here’s wishing you a painless delivery.

  166. suzy blah blah
    May 10, 2012 at 9:21 am

    What has occurred here on the northcoast is part of our cultural denial, something I believe has roots in generational children of alcoholic syndrome and Christian repression.

    -Important points. Put it in the book.

  167. May 10, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    Naigacho’s Dog said: ”(Ernie, do I know you? I feel like we may have met? :)”

    Naigacho, If I don’t know you personally I know your heart. I know that no one who knows the history of the north coast can ever truly accept the horror, it is overbearing. I know that your heart is more heavy than the “pregnancy” you are packing around. The history of the north coast is like jumping off a bluff, you can’t unjump. No matter how pure we think that we are today, we are the same. There is no way around what happened. There is no fair way to make it go away.

    I envy the people that moved to the north coast two generations ago and don’t even know who their grandfathers were. If they only knew the evil that was in their own ancestry they would maybe temper their outrage just a little.

    I am 67 years old, and I have heard various versions of these stories since I was a kid. I have a friend whose white ancestors were killed by Indians years ago. Since then his ancestors married Indian people. He is of mixed blood. Imagine his thoughts on the “Indian Wars”. There is no fair way to sort out history. What does his left hand owe his right? We need, at some point, to accept that we are all equals, and each of us needs to be proud of who we are. If we want to change things, we can change that.

  168. Jack Sherman
    May 11, 2012 at 11:25 pm

    “The good news is the killing has dropped way off.”

    As in every former imperial economy, the killing and environmental devastation was exported.

    As in every former imperial economy in collapse, it will return.

  169. 45689
    May 14, 2012 at 1:05 am

    The UN is not a government. The UN does not pass laws. The UN’s main purpose is to conduct global research and provide an open forum for foreign affairs and global issues. The UN has no means of actually forcing countries to do anything it recommends.

    If two countries ever go to International Court of Justice they both have to agree. The US even went to the ICJ and agreed to any outcome. Well when they lost the case against Nicaragua they decided to not accept the verdict. The UN was/is essentially powerless to enforce it.

    Some here in these comments claim the UN hates the United States. The US has a huge role in the UN and is always sought after for resolutions. Most investigations typically focus on African nations. Many in South America and East Asia as well. The United States is hardly ever focused on for past and current atrocities.

    Also, any “demands” will have to be passed through a UN resolution. This will have to be approved by the security council. The United States is on the security council and has a veto vote. It only takes one veto to kill a resolution.

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s