Home > Uncategorized > A Divided County, A Divided Country

A Divided County, A Divided Country

Every now and then, someone with whom I disagree produces something that offers me the opportunity to see the world through someone else’s eyes.

Occasional Herald commenter Ponder z did that in a comment he (she?) left last evening on the Pelican Bay thread.

While Herald readers may wish to respond to it, I hope we can also reflect upon it, recognizing that this is the way a substantial number of Americans feel about the world.  It’s rather long, but I think it is well-worth reading.

Here’s the link. https://humboldtherald.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/lawsuit-filed-against-pelican-bay-solitary-con

  1. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 8:06 am

    PonderZ makes something like a dozen or more points each one of which could be a topic on its own.

    Thinking people will not make a blanket condemnation or blanket approval of his post.

  2. wurking stiff
    June 1, 2012 at 8:56 am

    How thoughtful of fee-FI-fo to dictate the terms of how this discussion should be conducted.

    but it isn’t that complicated & it doesn’t requiire an equal volume of verbose (& boring) pontificating about “the way things really are”.

    It is ironic at best (and hypocritical but for the utter lack of self awareness of Maunder Z), wherein the same blathering stew of ideological dogma that accuses “those others” of a simple minded, one size fits all assessment of the human condition, the commenter offers up their own matching simple minded, one size fits all assessment.

    Out here in the world, most people are basically good at heart but can lapse into selfishness on occasion. There are also awful people who are selfish-to-sociopathic and who act out those internal drivers in behavior that cannot be tolerated.

    the bottom line is whether or not we wish to live in the dog-eat-dog Hobbesian society of all-on-all war as Zzzzzzz propones or do we want to try to facilitate a society that aims for more than that.

  3. Giggles
    June 1, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Plagiarism 101… always search out the most interesting phrases on Google….


  4. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 9:23 am

    Fair play: Ponder z does believe people are bad, so plagiarism would be consistent. I’m sure it’s not outlawed in the Bible. If using it helps you climb your way to the top (where the best people are), it’s just something you do, and beg Jehovah’s forgiveness if you hallucinate that he’s angry with you.

  5. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 9:31 am

    So Ponderz view that people are bad is merely projection – so typical of the authoritarian mindset. His mind must be a really scary place.

  6. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 9:55 am

    It is a nice pipe dream but human nature will forever stand in the way of that goal)

    If by ‘human nature’ he means ‘religion,’ then I agree with him.

  7. Nannymouse
    June 1, 2012 at 9:59 am

    The essential problem with Ponderz “view” is that it’s not his own, it’s just some crap he found on the Internet and dittoed like a good dittohead is trained to do by the plutocrat truthspeak media empire, the one that’s dominated by Rupert and his underlings.

  8. HUUFC
    June 1, 2012 at 10:31 am

    I like ponder z’s posting, explains alot about the state of the United States.

  9. Fact Checker
    June 1, 2012 at 10:47 am

    Nothing but drama, hyperbole, and fear-mongering. No facts to check, just a summary of Rush Limbaugh’s and Rex/HiFi/Robyn Arkley Junior’s view of Planet Earth.

  10. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Ponder Z’s point about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and evolution is pure nonsense and a fundamental misunderstanding of this physical science concept. Evolution is not an idea that requires conservation of energy in a closed system.

    Many fundamental aspects of scientific understanding such as gravity and quantum mechanics are ideas that cannot be absolutely “proven” (directly observed) because of the constraints of time and space. They are therefore theories (ideas that have passed repeated testing and allow successful prediction, and are explanations that are the most consistent with observations).

    However, biological change through mutation and natural selection (“evolution”) is proven on shorter time scales – e.g., PCB tolerant fish in the Hudson River: http://www.economist.com/node/21534749.
    Even the conservative Economist acknowledges this evidence.
    The Vatican even acknowledges the validity of evolution:

    Ya need to ponder some more.

  11. 2 cents
    June 1, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Indeed, it ‘splains a lot! Horrible to think that many share these beliefs . But it’s too stupid and long to respond to. A cautionary ‘tale’, but I don’t know about a gift.

    I will only argue with the basic premise – that human nature is evil. The vast majority of people are just trying to get on with their lives. There is a wonderful book by Daniel Quinn called Ishmael. In the novel, the circular effect of this belief is explored. We are taught we are by nature selfish, sinners etc. We then become so (to differing degrees) after having absorbed this message from so many channels (pun intended, but TV isn’t the only source – this story’s as old as the Bible).

    Referring back to the thread this forked off – I did not say I was against incarcerating ‘Monsters’ and I’m not so naive as to think there aren’t many out there. But our society creates them (it may take generations of neglect and/or oppression, but we allow or encourage this). Some, as was pointed out, benefit from it. As a society we do not and we aren’t safer for it either.

    As a society we are loosing our soul to allow the rape of the earth, the wars being fought for oil and control – IN OUR NAME, the dismantling of public education, the incarceration of such a proportion of our population and so much more….

    Not gonna go on or I might as well have addressed the z’s rant point by point.

  12. Eric Kirk
    June 1, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Do Iowa, Colorado, and Wisconsin belong in Jesusland? At least take Philadelphia out of Pennsylvania!

  13. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Perhaps it was too much to hope for an intelligent response from the bloggers on this blog ?

  14. Fact Checker
    June 1, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Hi Fi. Pot-Kettle-Black

  15. What Now
    June 1, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Mr. Kirtk, with all due resepect, the late U.S. Congressman Johm Murtah, served 26 years in the lower house and nailed the definition of Pennsylvania as “the northern most reaches of Apalachia”.
    Philadaelphia has an abysmal record of racism, rogue police and prosecutor’s offices, and an unhealthy percentage of dominionist church goers.

    And to Darth Finance;
    It’s nothing short of amazing that a lowly lying degenerate like you, after calling other posters :
    ‘sissy”, “fool”, ” “nerds”, “geeks”, “lowlifes”,”liars”,” “parasites”
    casting aspersions on on the sanity, veracity, or sobriety of anyone who dares to call you out on your misrepresentations, dated and discredited information, insidious aspersions and and troglodytic value system decry the comments of others on this blog.

    You’re one selfish,pathetic, dimwitted waste of space and resources. I can fully understand why you question evolution;it certainly bypassed you and your entire knucklescraping family.

  16. 2 cents
    June 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    H.F. – Uckfay ouyay………….

  17. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    OK, HiFi, here are my thoughts about the comment:

    If anyone tried a similar blanket condemnation of conservatives the outraged wailing would be audible from Mississippi to Orange County.

    I’m probably someone who the author, whoever it might have been, considers a “libtard,” so I’ll just give a quick rundown of some of my beliefs.

    I believe human nature contains both good and bad. For the good to dominate, I believe, a society has to ensure that all or almost all of its members feel valuable, valued, and included. In the absence of positive efforts in that direction, I believe, people’s fear takes over and makes them more greedy and self-centered than is necessary in a properly functioning society.

    There are always groupings of every size in every modern society — from individuals through nuclear families through extended families, neighborhoods, towns and cities. The more fearful a society’s members are, the more they depend on the smaller groupings, with the ultimate fear producing groupings of one — everyone for themselves. When a society’s members feel they can trust and rely on others, larger groupings flourish due to mutual support.

    I recognize that when a government steps in and ensures a minimal level of support for those who don’t get it from their families, that reduces people’s dependency on family, and can weaken families that are held together mainly by dependency. I recognize that as a genuine risk, but I think it is outweighed by the safety it can provide. I don’t think the elderly should die in poverty just because their children won’t support them, and I don’t think a child should go hungry just because their parents are incapable of or unwilling to provide for them. I don’t think any spouse should remain in an abusive relationship for fear they have no possible economic alternative. I don’t think someone born into complete dependency — say, a person with severe mental illness or lacking limbs — should be solely dependent on their family’s support for leading the best life they can.

    I believe there will always be those who try to get a free ride, and I don’t think that’s all that much of a problem as long as it remains a small minority, and the free ride is at the level of the safety net. When a large portion of society wants a free ride, or when a small group feels entitled to a free ride at the level of a First Class Frequent Flyer, the society’s cohesion becomes endangered.

    I believe that everyone is entitled to a free ride now and again, as proof that they are part of a supportive community. Almost all of us need one on occasion, and almost all of us contribute more than our share in other ways, so if we need a safety net at a bad moment in our lives, or in connection with one aspect of our lives, that’s not a sin.

    I believe that much (though not all) of our success or failure in life is dumb luck: we choose the right parents or the wrong parents, choose to be born in the right country or the wrong country, land a good brain or a bad one, a pretty face or an ugly one. Even willpower is doled out in an unequal manner, and it seems non-sensical to me for someone to take pride in the willpower they happen to have been born with. Because I believe that, I think it’s important that government treat everyone equally, regardless of wealth or status.

    I believe that humans will try to cheat. Because I believe that, I think it’s very important for a functioning society to enforce laws and regulations that exist to provide for a common good. I don’t think people should be allowed to make money in business by directly harming others, or by taking shortcuts that no one else is allowed to take. I think creating and enforcing fair regulations is probably the most critical economic role any government can play, and I think our government completed its abandonment of that role when it stepped in and “saved the banks” from their risky and idiotic bets.

    I believe it is people’s responsibility, when making rules, to discuss with other members of society the rational reasons for the rules. That is, I don’t find it acceptable to make laws based on one’s faith. There’s nothing wrong with having laws that conform to most people’s faith, but the laws have to be supported by rational argument, not just a statement that “God says do it this way.”

    I don’t think God talks to you more than he talks to me and I don’t often agree with others about what God has supposedly told conservatives. I don’t think he’s in the habit of directing hurricanes based on political policies.

    I think the ways in which we measure success are faulty, and I think the GDP in particular is a damaging concept. I think people can earn money by doing useful things, neutral or pointless things, and genuinely damaging things. I think in the end, the societies that encourage the useful things, rather than the profitable things, will be successful. I think the societies that allow large numbers of their people to devote their lives to rearranging who has the money rather than to creating genuine wealth will become impoverished, as ours is becoming.

    I think the largest contributors to society are those who use creativity to make material things accomplish more and those who use creativity to engage us and bind us together. I don’t think those people are generally rewarded financially in any way related to their contributions.

    I think every society needs a way to ensure the safety of those within its boundaries, but I don’t think any society is entitled to maintain military operations outside of its boundaries. Like Eisenhower, I think the military-industrial-Congressional complex is dangerous; unlike Eisenhower, I can look back at forty or fifty years of proof that his unheeded warnings were prescient.

    Since the author of Ponder z’s comment brought up thermodynamics, I’ll bring that subject up as well. I think money acts similarly to most gases. That is, it takes pumps and boundaries to have more of it in one spot than in another. The higher the pressure difference, the more sturdy the boundaries need to be, and the more energy needs to be devoted to maintaining the pumping stations. When you have high pressure in a gas cylinder, it had better have really thick walls. When you have really high income inequality, you’d better have lots of troops and police. There comes a point where the walls have to be so thick that there’s no space left for the gas, and our society is fast approaching that point.

  18. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Eloquently stated Mitch. But do you think people who share Ponderz views can understand it?

  19. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm


    That’s beyond my control. But I can tell people what I think.

  20. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Ponderz said something that is true to the nth degree.

    Liberals see the world as it should be, conservatives see the world as it is. Perhaps Cons are cynics but Libs are naive.

    Libs say the way to help the poor is to transfer wealth to them from the “rich”. Cons recognize that does nothing but foster dependence, saps will and hurts the people receiving something for nothing. It is like that old commercial from the 60’s. Some UN program that said something about giving a man a fish feeds him for the day. Teaching how to fish feeds him for a lifetime.

  21. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    …and depleting his fishery by sending your factory fleets to suck up every fish in the sea means he’s SOL, and liable to start making annoying requests that UNICEF send protein. Damn dependency!

    On the bright side, you can make high income from doing clever advertisements to get people to buy fish-based pet food!

  22. goatboy
    June 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Like almost everything in life Mitch you have no clue about economics or thermodynamics.

  23. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Ponderz also said that “people have different levels of intiatives, are basically selfish and often work for their own interests before helping others.”

    That is true for all humans, lib or con, Dem or Rep, rich or poor. That fact is neither good nor bad. It is only bad when carried to an extreme.

    You have no hope of ever helping the poor until you realize what it is that motivates everybody. Henry Ford revolutionized the car industry and created a company that made cars affordable for everybody when previously only the rich could buy them. He did not do it for any altrusitic reason but to make a profit.

    The same can be said for the people who create life saving miracle drugs, cheaper food and a better lightbulb.

  24. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm


    What would you say if I told you my doctorate was in thermo?

    (I don’t have one, so it’s not, but still….)

  25. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    HiFi, despite his lifelong advantages due to picking the right parents, can’t understand what liberals really think. Maybe someone was teaching him to fish when they should have been teaching him reading comprehension.

  26. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    The factory fleets are not all bad Mitch. They provide cheaper food for desperatly poor people in other countries.

    It is bad only when carried to such an extreme that it threatens to deplenish the supply.

  27. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    5.25pm, why don’t you try to stop your knee from jerking long enough to think ?

  28. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    You left out the part about Ford realizing workers needed to make enough money to buy what they were making and not just cars. It’s always one sided with you.

  29. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    No, HiFi.

    The people who create life saving miracle drugs tend to be researchers paid by the NIH — by us. They go to schools and universities that are subsidized by us, and then work in laboratories that are heavily dependent on government grants.

    The pharmaceutical companies then get to keep the profits from manufacturing the drugs. They may do some final steps to make sure a good drug candidate works, but the vast majority of the pure research required to drive the system is done at universities.

    The people who create cheap food have learned how to mine soil. They are destroying the ability of our grandchildren to grow food on the soil they deplete, and are dependent on a non-renewable supply of often petroleum-based soil amendments as they drain the life-growing capacity out of the ground.

    Henry Ford would be called a libtard today, because of the high wages he paid. He also implemented a system which reduced the work lives of many perfectly intelligent people to nothing but, “twist, screw, reach, insert, REPEAT.”

  30. Ponder z
    June 1, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Right HF. So you libs keep your hands off my income. If I have a surplus, I can donate to the needy.

    (Disclaimer: all basic tax collected by the government for general operation is excluded for the above statement.)

  31. Ponder z
    June 1, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    I’m not sure where the map came form, but Mexico called, and they pissed we gave California to Canada, Eh.

  32. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Those researchers, even if they LOVE their jobs, are working for a paycheck Mitch.

    The pharmaceutical companies form in order to raise the tens of billions of dollars necessary to pay for the R & D to bring successful drugs to the market.

    The stockholders are not Mother Teresa, they are people that want a return on their investment. Those profits on the few successful drugs developed are necessary to pay for all the unsuccesful drugs and to give a return to the stockholders. And BULL on your assertion that “the vast majority of the pure research is done at universities”. I posted those facts earlier this week that debunks that claim.

    Not 50 years ago many were forecasting worldwide starvation as the earth’s population soared. Those fears seem silly now as ways were discovered to grow and deliver cheaper food.

    “Perfectly” intelligent people tend not to work on assembly lines.

  33. What Now
    June 1, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Once again, braced with his choice of “liquid courage and reason”, Darth Finance spews more noxious effluvia:

    High Finance says:
    June 1, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    “Ponderz also said that ‘people have different levels of intiatives, are basically selfish and often work for their own interests before helping others.’…

    “That is true for all humans, ”

    “The same can be said for the people who create life saving miracle drugs, cheaper food and a better lightbulbs.”

    Jonas Salk.
    Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
    Mohandas Gandhi
    Mother Teresa

  34. High Finance
    June 1, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    And by the way, those universities make money out of their research departments as well. Those profits help keep their staffs salaries up so the profit motive is alive and well even there.

  35. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    So Mr. Finance, which one of Rex’s donors are you? He may need another 300 grand real fast:


  36. Mitch
    June 1, 2012 at 5:52 pm


    The researchers receive paychecks so they can live. They work because they want to make a difference, and often because they want what the kinetic sculpture race refers to as “the glory.” They don’t work for their paychecks. It’s similar with other creative workers who are creating what they want to create, as opposed to “product” or “content.”

    It’s an important distinction that you really may not understand, and it’s a distinction that our country has been bulldozing under.

    A banker works for his paycheck, as does an assembly line worker. That’s because there’s no inherent benefit to either as a result of their work — they need to be “compensated” for their wasted time.

  37. Saturday's Child
    June 1, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    So, Mr. Finance, which of Rex’s donors are you? He’s gonna need another 300 grand real soon:


  38. 2 cents
    June 1, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    The factory fleets ARE all bad. They HAVE depleted the supply; there are an incredible number of creatures killed that are not targeted; they drag the bottom so destructively their trails can be seen from space and many countries use their slave-labor prisoners to work these ships – ALL BAD.

  39. Anonymous
    June 1, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Ponder Z. Sounds like he fell asleep while pondering. The blather he plagiarized is beyond his ability to comprehend. Forget about the responses to his cut-and-paste diatribe.

    What is the point of arguing with someone who can’t form and express his own ideas? Talk to your dog or cat. They are much smarter than Z.

  40. Ponder z
    June 1, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Stereotyped, are you Anon 7:24?

    As for your dog or cat, now you know how I feel.

  41. Thorstein Veblen
    June 1, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    Theres just too much here, and not nearly enough time or energy to set you folks straight on how the world really works. Sorry.

    Ok, the part about liberals seeing the world as it ‘should’ be is incorrect, they see it as it ‘could’ be. The fact that the righties think they see the world ‘as it is’, is itself evidence of how they don’t see the world as it is.

  42. anoni-I Hate Cheaters
    June 2, 2012 at 9:48 am

    People keep writing ‘Ponder Z said this’ or Ponder Z said that.’ Ponder Z didn’t say shit. Ponder Z came across some doctrine from Urban Dictionary and did a cut and paste. You could probably teach a chimp to do that given enough time.

    Ponder Z is aptly named, for he(she…whatever) is just another ponderous ditto-head spouting the same old same old. “Tell me what to think and I’ll tell everyone.” From the first paragraph, the only original one in the post, we can actually see Ponder’s writing skills and intellect leak through. Not very impressive, but kind of what I expected.

    I love lines in diatribes like this that state, “The reality is…..” Yeh, we are supposed to accept reality from the garbage-head who wrote it. Again…not Ponder Z, Ponder Z simply learned how to click the left and right buttons on a mouse.

    Next time you want to lecture us Ponder…….at least put an original thought into it or fess up to the source, you plagiarizing, low-browed mutton-head.

  43. Bolithio
    June 2, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Leaving Jesusland…

    My favorite part…

    We want people with college degrees,
    drug use experience and STD’s
    People with open-minded philosophies,
    come hug California trees

  44. Anonymous
    June 2, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Bolithio, a clearcutter, has him some contempt for people who know clearcutting should and could stop, forever, starting tomorrow.

  45. 2 cents
    June 2, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Cool! Love the song, thanks. What? He wasn’t using it as an example of political creativity? Tut tut – he has contempt? Oh well, I guess he doesn’t have a sense of humor either.

  46. suzy blah blah
    June 2, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    they leave these activities with a feeling of success “because they have raised awareness” or “let their voices be heard.”

    -sounds like Mitch.

  47. firesidechet
    June 3, 2012 at 10:06 am

    libtards in leotards always playing the race card when are they gonna quit with the canard

  48. Casual Observer
    June 3, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Ponder z- the map is a screen shot from the music video for “Franco Unamerican,” by the band NOFX. It was produced around the time (2004) when it became very financially viable for aging Hollywood stars and bands to produce anti-bush rhetoric. Unfortunately, this vortex of libtardation sucked in, a once pretty kick ass punk band, NOFX. This can be understood best by listening to the simple, bumble-gum, lyrics of Bolithios post of “jesusland.” I mean how can we take these guys seriously, have you seen their reality show? “The Decline,” by NOFX was at least somewhat thought provoking, while at the same time was kind of the end of an era for those guys, and the beginning of their decent into libertardation. — “I’ll never fly S&M airlines again!”– too bad

  49. Ponder z
    June 3, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Thanxs CO, suzy bb, and firesidechet.
    (that’s, thank you, for all you anal retentive libtards)

  50. Bolithio
    June 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    I mean how can we take these guys seriously

    Good point. You obviously have a deep understanding of punk.

  51. Casual Observer
    June 4, 2012 at 7:51 am

    Bolithio said:
    Good point. You obviously have a deep understanding of punk.

    Please…Greg Graffin just buried his head in disgust! Bolithio you should go have lots of sex with your STD infested, drugged-up, delusional, wanna-be brethren. We’ll see where that gets you.

  52. Bolithio
    June 4, 2012 at 11:19 am

    I doubt that! Greg and Fat Mike are actually good friends! But since you referenced Dr Graffin, a song comes to mind… this is for you Causal:

  53. Anonymous
    June 4, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    It is disheartening to see so many argue over a broken political system. The left and the right are two sides of the same coin – control.

    Less than a handful of national politicians are doing anything in the best interests of their constituencies. And we argue over human nature. Meanwhile, our future is being seriously jeopardized.

    The global elite have been preparing the world for the next World War. Everything will change once the war starts. And the war drums are beating. Libya’s done, Syria is on the chopping block. Once Syria is overrun by NATO, China is going to stop paying for oil with dollars, and WW3 begins, officially.

    At the same time, big banks are going to fail and our global elite is going to blame this on Iran, Russia, and China. When in actuality, an unsustainable monetary system of debt once again caused another civilization to collapse. Last one was Rome. This was planned. Again.

    If we do not cross the aisles and stop this war, our futures are lost. A divided America is a vulnerable America, please, stop promoting what you think is ‘best'(libtards and rethuglicans don’t know how the world works so they cannot best decide the direction for the country), and work with others to promote peace and sustainability on local levels

  54. Anonymous
    June 4, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    We must keep open minds and take useful ideologies from both political ‘doctrines’ of liberalism vs conservatism

    A safety net is reasonable and caring for others can prevent larger costs on society later on. Within reason.

    Keeping taxes and regulations on businesses reasonable allows businesses to operate and keep us fed and clothed.

    An armed population is essential to a bountiful society.

    Helping others makes it possible for upward social mobility which America is way behind on.

    Why is it everyone pushes their ideas but not common sense at such a tumultous time?

  55. Anonymous
    June 4, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    “An armed population is essential to a bountiful society.”???

    Where is there a good example of that?

  56. Casual Observer
    June 4, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    Bolithio- Of course, Fat Mike and Greg Graffin are “good friends,” they are in business together. What I gather from everything I have ever read from or about him, Graffins idea of punk and Fat Mikes differ in many ways. Do you think Greg covers “Talk about Suffering,” to be sarcastic or maybe to teach punks that it’s not always about tattoos and ugly hair? Anyways, sounds like we have similar tastes in music. I would almost say we should hang out, but it sounds like you run with a fast and dangerous crowd. Plus, I’ve got kids to take care of, much like Professor Punk.

  57. Anonymous
    June 4, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    @ Anonymous 3:25pm

    There has never been an example of a bountiful society, because humanity has never been offered a situation where we could have such a system. Humanity has always seen elite controlled ‘capitalism’. Never have we had free market capitalism. Ever. In human history. Period.

    Instead of trying to furrow your brows on concepts you can’t understand, think deeper about the concepts. If we don’t have guns to protect our families from oppresive government, we are slaves to an unfair system. Period. I used to be a gun grabbing liberal, until Barack Obama’s failures made me look deeper… now I understand how the world works. You should study history too.

  58. Bolithio
    June 4, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Casual, lol, Im actually much more like you, as you describe yourself. We were all young once…You imply that NOFX writes songs to ‘cash in’ on the some market i.e. Bush. Thats nonsense. Have you really listened to them? Dinosaurs must die? Wolves in wolves clothing?

  59. Anonymous
    June 4, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    nofx is punk like bling…er…blink 182 is punk. “a product of three million millionairres”. You should say you like music that sounds sorta like punk rock, as performed by mtv flavors of the week. They sold out because they were sellouts. “dreadlock kits on sale at hot topic, woo! better ask the label if i can go with that look!”

    Do you feel punk, bolithio, when you sign off on a clearcut?

  60. Bolithio
    June 4, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    Sold out to who? They own their label.

  61. Anonymous
    June 5, 2012 at 9:35 am

    “They own their label.”

    A subsidiary of….?

  62. Bolithio
    June 5, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Anonymous, your a dumbass. Read for yourself:

  63. Anonymous
    June 5, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    bolithio, your ass is dumb. They are a subsidiary of basically all the major distributors. They pay them. They got and get their money from them. Part of necessitating “punk” image is disconnect with “major labels”. They became MTV flavors of the week, and fell under multimillion dollar management…but I can understand your need to think your lyrical muse is still so “punk”. Heaven forbid they’re not as “indy” anymore as you’d like to believe. Their music sounds like crybaby emopop too, you’ve gotta know that. Punk? They should tour with Bling 182. Or have they already? I stopped caring a very long time ago.

  64. Casual Observer
    June 5, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    When Bad Religion was on their “New America” tour I saw them open for Blink 182. I swear I left though before Blink performed! (lol) Bolithio, I’m glad I made you laugh, but still gotta say that “You’re Wrong!” Seriously, watch the video extra on “The War On Errorism,” and I swear you’ll hear Fat Mike selling out, “we never cared that much about politics until we realized how bad Bush is and how much money we could make exploiting it… Blah, blah….” There music is comical and their act nothing more than a packaged schtick of juvenile behavior.

  65. Bolithio
    June 5, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    There music is comical and their act nothing more than a packaged schtick of juvenile behavior.

    Well I wont dispute that entirely. I love me some comedy and juvenile behavior from time to time. But as a musician, I can say that that band remains one of the tightest, most talented acts in that type of music. As with Frank Zappa, adding comedy to tight songs works fairly well. And trying to make a living by playing music is not ‘selling out’. I still dont believe they are being contrived though. They play to have fun, its that simple. I dont think he wrote the songs on War on Errorism to send any message or change anyone’s minds. It was just his commentary at the time. Think of all the songs about Regan from back in the day. Its the same thing.

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