Home > environment > Clearcutters seek stewardship certification

Clearcutters seek stewardship certification

[From EPIC]

Green Diamond Resource Company (previously known as Simpson Timber Company) is seeking to certify its forest lands through the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC), a non-profit organization that sets standards for forestry practices in an attempt to balance environmental, social, and economic values. While this could be a promising development, many questions arise because of Green Diamond’s aggressive clearcut logging.

FSC is using a third party company, Scientific Certification Systems (SCS), to conduct the audit of Green Diamond’s forest lands.  This process is open to public input and there will be a public meeting on June 11th at the Bayside Grange.  EPIC encourages all of its members and the general public to learn more about the FSC certification process, and to comment at the public meeting.

Read the Public Notification Letter about this process and for more information.

Comments can be sent to:
Dr. Sheila Steinberg, Social Scientist and Auditor
Scientific Certification Systems, Inc.
2000 Powell Street, Suite 600,
Emeryville, CA 94608
Email: fscinput@gmail.com

Public Meeting on Green Diamond & Forest Stewardship Council

When:
Monday, June 11th
7:00pm – 8:30pm

Where:
The Bayside Grange Hall
2297 Jacoby Creek Rd. Bayside CA

  1. Anonymous
    June 10, 2012 at 5:56 am

    Please define “aggressive clearcut logging”

  2. steak n eggs
    June 10, 2012 at 8:12 am

    Haha…more hyperbole for the sheep

  3. Pitchfork
    June 10, 2012 at 9:11 am

    Please define “aggressive clearcut logging”
    simple, a 40 year rotation with herbicides on top!

  4. Tree hugger
    June 10, 2012 at 9:23 am

    With Palco/HRC a few years ago and now Green Diamond going FSC, there’s not much left for the forest activists to be exicted about. If all of the large redwood timber companies are FSC certified, will we see environmentally conscious consumers buying FSC redwood decking, or will they still buy plastic trex because it comes in colors.

  5. Anonymous
    June 10, 2012 at 9:52 am

    there’s not much left for the forest activists to be exicted about

    Never underestimate an activist’s ability to find something to be upset about. They’ll even launch a lawsuit to stop a road widening.

  6. SNaFU
    June 10, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Clear-cut: Making room for “The Home Depot”

  7. Anonymous
    June 10, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Tree hugger,
    Please note that this is just the beginning of the process for Green Diamond. It seems they are quite a ways off from truly sustainable practices. Sure some of Green Diamonds roads are well maintained, but they carry out intensive rates of harvest in degraded watersheds, with clearcutting as their primary silvicultural method, and excessive herbicide use to boot. As far as examples of aggressive clearcut logging, take a look at aerial photos of little river, subdrainages of the Mad, etc.

    You mention Humboldt Redwood Company: it would be a huge step forward if Green Diamond actually followed HRC’s move to more sustainable practices.

  8. wouldn't it be nice
    June 10, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Pitchfork is accurate. A forty year tree growth cycle with herbicides to keep down the tanoaks is not stewardship. More like a sterile monoculture.

  9. Bo chee
    June 10, 2012 at 11:07 am

    yo baby, you gotta be down with the forest products industry. Pays a living wage, they can do whatever want within the law because they own the land. Got that? Unless you feel like working your ass off to get laws passed to protect this public resource called trees, water, wildlife, your going after the wrong person. They would use less herbacides if it was more accepted to burn, and smoking out the entire towns up here, they would do that.

  10. Anonymous
    June 10, 2012 at 11:23 am

    So, to recap, Green Diamond wants to start doing the right thing, so let’s beat them up about it to be sure they don’t. We will then continue to have a target to vilify.

  11. anonomous
    June 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Clearcuts are good. All those stumps give hikers a place to sit.

  12. HumBiz
    June 10, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Just as point of note there are plenty of clearcutting companies with FACT certification.

  13. HumBiz
    June 10, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    FSC that is

  14. June 10, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    it is a pattern- add KAY BECKER with MY WORD re the General Plan–a DELPHI conspiracy

  15. Cut trees, not forests
    June 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Bo Chee,
    FSC certification isn’t about what the timber companies are allowed to do. It is a claim that a company’s practices meet a higher standard, and it’s voluntary.

    You want to manage your forest on a 40-year rotation? Fine, we’ll see you at the Board of Forestry meetings, but in the meantime, don’t go trying to greenwash your business and get certification from the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC).

    As for paying a living wage, anyone know if Green Diamond pays better, worse, or the same as companies like Humboldt Redwood Company and Collins Pine that are certified? I wouldn’t assume that those extra short-term revenues necessarily get divvied up to the workforce in extra compensation.

  16. 713
    June 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    green diamond pays well. i have a family member who works there.

  17. Gil Yule
    June 10, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    I’ve recently retired after 40 years in the NorCal timber industry. I sold out for the wages but was always a sort of 60’s union/activist working in a predominantly redneck industry and have never really fit in.

    I would like to go on record saying that you’re going after the wrong demon when you attack Green Diamond/Simpson. I believe that these ones are really trying to get it right.

    Our society continues to need wood products and my sense is that Green Diamond/Simpson are earnestly trying to deliver. There are better targets for our outrage.

  18. June 10, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Where’s the attack? This is a call for everyone who is concerned with this companies practices to attend the public meeting on Monday, ask questions and voice their opinion. It’s a chance to tell FSC what matters to you and what you think Green Diamond needs to change to become sustainable.

    I’m not saying that FSC is perfect, they do certify clear-cutting for instance, but they have not certified a redwood logging company that didn’t shift their practices away from clear-cutting and they should hold Green Diamond to at least the same standard as HRC.

  19. Paul Bunyon
    June 10, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    To achieve a healthy forest, why is selective cutting so superior to clear cutting?

  20. Dan
    June 11, 2012 at 7:17 am

    Paul, seriously?
    Selective cutting leaves the forest
    and soils somewhat intact.
    Clearcut disturbs the soils and
    removes the entire canopy, 40-60 inches of rain falls,
    and son of a gun the soils are now in the waterways!
    You might want to take a peek at Maple Creek,
    Green Diamond are clearcutters extraordinaire,
    hell, check-out some aerials, if you’d like to
    kick-it up a notch the Humboldt Main Library, 2nd floor
    has aerials of industrial clearcuts that are sure to turn
    your stomach, while at the same time, explain why
    are watersheds are so torn apart and why the Coho and
    many other life forms are in trouble.

  21. just middle class
    June 11, 2012 at 7:31 am

    Your opinion is just that, your opinion not based on the facts. Most sedimentation comes from roads, not the logging site. With Green Diamond’s practices, there are fewer roads to a site and that road is opened once every 40 years. I have visited their lands and understand why they use thier practice of even age management. Your clearcutting is an emotional response, not a factual one. I will agree that clearcutting is not pretty and selective logging is more easy on the eye.
    Green Diamond is a vey responsible company. Current logging practices have practices to protect wildlife and Green Diamond has gone beyond minimum requirements to be responsible.

  22. June 11, 2012 at 8:06 am

    Thanks to Heraldo for posting this announcement. It would certainly be good for the local community if a large number of people come out and participate in this meeting tonight. If you have concerns about Green Diamond ex-Simpson Timber that you want the FSC auditors to be aware of and include in their assessment, come on out. As well, if you believe Green Diamond meets or could make changes in their operations to meet FSC standards, come on out. Whatever your opinion, this is a meeting to attend and make your voice heard. This is a tremendous opportunity for our community to be involved in promoting the establishment of a ecologically viable and sustainable forest products industry on the North Coast. See you there!

  23. unanonymous
    June 11, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Selection silviculture requires a larger road network to harvest and manage the timber. Roads are the issue as anyone objectively studying this issue knows. Slash loading of selection harvest units can be a future fire problem. The reality is, because of the past logging abuse prior to forest practice rules many timber stands need to be clearcut to bring a healthy forest back.

    Things people don’t want to understand:

    1. Spraying herbicides allows the conifer to regenerate faster and reduces the amount of opportunistic species to colonize the slopes. Look at the old growth aerial photography, most of the timberland was predominantly conifer.

    2. Burning redwood clearcuts after harvest promotes a healthier stand. un-burned, redwoods sprout from the stump and after about 20-30 years many stems start peeling off like onion skins. Burning forces the tree to sprout from the roots and promotes a much healthier stand.

    3, California imports 70% of its wood products from places with less environmental protection. Much of the Canadian wood we use especially that cedar fencing Piersons likes to promote is coming from virgin forests. A timber permit costs ~10 times more in CA than it does than other States.

  24. Anonymous
    June 11, 2012 at 11:30 am

    unanonymous, don’t introduce facts and science into an emotionally-based fight against The Man.

  25. June 11, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Perhaps the meeting this evening will be a litmus test of the character of the anonymous trolls who make so many comments about advocacy efforts concerning key natural resource management issues. It is one thing to make comments in the blogosphere, it is another thing to actually get up off the couch and participate in these key processes for working towards advances in stewarding public trust resources in our bioregion. This meeting is important, we hope to see you all there.

  26. tra
    June 11, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    “Comments can be sent to:
    Dr. Sheila Steinberg, Social Scientist and Auditor”

    Interesting job title.

  27. Anonymous
    June 11, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    EPiC lies!

  28. Former colleague
    June 11, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    @tra: Sheila’s former title was asst prof of sociology at hsu. She has a new gig now, as does Steve.

  29. Bolithio
    June 12, 2012 at 7:27 am

    There are two philosophies that dominate our views of the forest. Preservation and Conservation. The preservationist believes that little to nothing should be done to forest, regardless of the needs of man. The conservationist believes in utilizing all the benefits of the forest to the maximum extent. In CA, we have done a excellent job of meeting both of these objectives. Not only do we have large intact wilderness areas (that few states or countries have), we also have large forests dedicated to providing the resources that people need. Our forests dedicated to fiber production also must comply with the most progressive, stringent regulation in the world. Seriously, I think only New Zealand comes close to CA’s forest practice act.

    I believe that it makes sense to have areas designated for forest products. GD’s ownership is ideal for this as there are no primary forests on the ownership, and the land base is large enough for the intensive management regime they implement.

    If we shut down our large forest product producers in the CA, the demand does not diminish. Instead, the demand is met immediately elsewhere where the forest practices go from less to heinous real fast.

    Without complaining too much about Oregon, Washington, and Canada… Siberia – one of the largest timber exporters in the world – continues to fill the lumber needs of the world with no regulation whatsoever. And then there are the rainforests – which unlike our resilient temperate forests – are significantly effecting our worlds climate.

    In other countries, it is rare that forests are managed. They are typically harvested and converted to other uses such as agriculture. This is a huge problem. It is also a huge distinction between CA logging practices and elsewhere. Do to effective regulation and forest policy, clear cuts in CA do not result in deforestation.

    Here are some links to were there are real problems occurring in forests:

    http://rainforests.mongabay.com/defor_index.htm

    http://www.fao.org/forestry/en/

    http://www.thinkglobalgreen.org/deforestation.html

  30. firesidechet
    June 12, 2012 at 9:01 am

    times have changed- grow up little loraxes.

  31. Bolithio
    June 12, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Can you moderate me already! I know Hughes is dieing to read my 2-cents!

  32. Bolithio
    June 12, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Well the links I posted must have killed my post, so Ill re-post it:

    There are two philosophies that dominate our views of the forest. Preservation and Conservation. The preservationist believes that little to nothing should be done to forest, regardless of the needs of man. The conservationist believes in utilizing all the benefits of the forest to the maximum extent. In CA, we have done a excellent job of meeting both of these objectives. Not only do we have large intact wilderness areas (that few states or countries have), we also have large forests dedicated to providing the resources that people need. Our forests dedicated to fiber production also must comply with the most progressive, stringent regulation in the world. Seriously, I think only New Zealand comes close to CA’s forest practice act.

    I believe that it makes sense to have areas designated for forest products. GD’s ownership is ideal for this as there are no primary forests on the ownership, and the land base is large enough for the intensive management regime they implement.

    If we shut down our large forest product producers in the CA, the demand does not diminish. Instead, the demand is met immediately elsewhere where the forest practices go from less to heinous real fast.

    Without complaining too much about Oregon, Washington, and Canada… Siberia – one of the largest timber exporters in the world – continues to fill the lumber needs of the world with no regulation whatsoever. And then there are the rainforests – which unlike our resilient temperate forests – are significantly effecting our worlds climate.

    In other countries, it is rare that forests are managed. They are typically harvested and converted to other uses such as agriculture. This is a huge problem. It is also a huge distinction between CA logging practices and elsewhere. Do to effective regulation and forest policy, clear cuts in CA do not result in deforestation.

  33. tra
    June 12, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    “If we shut down our large forest product producers in the CA…”

    No one is trying to “shut down” Green Diamond. The discussion is about whether / under what conditions they should receive Forest Stewardship Council certification.

  34. 713
    June 13, 2012 at 6:39 am

    Won’t the standards either be met or not? I don’t see how the conditions of meeting a certification could change based on public input.

  35. anonymous
    June 13, 2012 at 11:05 am

    What happened at the meeting?

  36. Bolithio
    June 14, 2012 at 9:23 am

    TRA, but they are. My point (I should have been more clear) was that certification in the US, and especially CA is a nice but arbitrary gesture when we consider what we are faced with in other countries. The Forest Stewardship Council does a excellent (and very changeling job) of bringing developing countries into a more sustainable approach to logging.

    Right now, CA imports 70% of the lumber it uses. And this number has been steadily increasing. Every little hurdle that major timber/lumber suppliers face is compounding this problem. In many ways this is the cost of doing things above and beyond everyone else, but it needs to be checked. EPIC, and their supporters, are constantly trying to slow and hinder progress by companies such as GD from competing in this tough market. Look at the headline of this thread: CLEARCUTTERS! Its an emotional campaign – and one that I see as not really calibrated to the big picture. If CA is going to continue to provide wood to society (under the strictest regulatory environment in the world), it needs more support, not auto-reactionary opposition to everything the industry tries to do to keep the ship floating.

    Remember, 70% of the wood in CA comes from places where there are little to no regulations! A 20 acre clear cut on Green Diamond is nothing compared to the hectacres cleared daily in Siberia or Brazil. And whats worse is most times these places are actually deforested – that is converted to other uses such as grazing.

    We need to get behind our forest products industry in CA. If our model for advanced planning, comprehensive assessment, and modern forest practice fails – there will be no chance that these policies will spread to other areas.

  37. June 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    I’m wondering if Steinberg is too closely tied to the HSU Forestry department which has a horrible reputation in the industry and academia right now. They bend to the will of industry as they try to keep their failing department alive :( It would be nice to get someone less partial.

  38. tra
    June 14, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    Bolithio,

    Nobody’s putting a gun to Green Diamond’s head and forcing them to apply for FSC certification. They decided to apply, presumably because they think the FSC cert will increase the market value of their products.

    EPIC’s position seems to be that even-aged management (clear-cutting) of redwoods on a 45 year rotation isn’t deserving of the FSC stamp of approval, and that to earn that approval, Green Diamond should have to make some changes in their practices.

    But it won’t be up to either Green Diamond or EPIC to decide whether GD gets the FSC cert or not, it will be up to the FSC, through the independent auditors they work with.

    None of this is even remotely close to an effort to “shut down Green Diamond.” MRC and HRC have received the FSC certification, and they have not been “shut down.” Why would being held to the same standards as MRC and HRC mean Green Diamond would be “shut down?”

  39. Thirdeye
    June 14, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    I don’t think Bolithio was contending that complying with FSC standards would force Green Diamond to shut down. There are, however, a number of factors that could negate the strategy of accepting the added costs associated with FSC certification for the promise (not certainty) of higher market value. A premium for FSC certified wood in strong and weak markets means very different things from the standpoint of a forest products consumer. The effectiveness of the strategy hinges on the ability of FSC to see eye to eye with economic realities.

  40. Anonymous
    June 15, 2012 at 11:03 am

    “Look at the headline of this thread: CLEARCUTTERS! Its an emotional campaign – and one that I see as not really calibrated to the big picture.”

    Unless clearcutting is fiction, meaning my own eyes have lied to me, then it is not an emotional campaign any more or less than it is one around the fact of clearcutting. You prescribe clearcuts, bolithio. You promote logging. You are an ‘industry insider’. You are emotionally (as well as economically) tied to clearcutting, not the other way around. I have no attatchment to the practice, it can AND SHOULD stop tomorrow…those employed as clearcutters can go find work at walmart with all the other former employees of outdated industry.

  41. Thirdeye
    June 15, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    11:03, your argument is a wonderful example of an ill-informed, emotional response to clearcuts. You also blew away the notion that environmentalists are on the side of timber workers. If you’re not one of the smart ones making money off pot, you deserve what you get, right?

  42. Bolithio
    June 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    OK 11:03. Do you have anything else to say about what I have posted here, or is that all you got? That we should all go work at wlamart?

  43. Anonymous
    June 15, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Bolithio, you are financially and emotionally involved in clearcutting. Your responses are emotional attempts to refute the material reality that is clearcutting. I doubt you see the “positive” in clearcutting. I would like to think at least a few cells in your sponge are fully aware that it would be for the better health of the entire planet if clearcutting were to stop immediately. And yes, it would be great if you worked elsewhere. How about you find employment at the walmart they just built on what was once thick forest right down to the water’s edge. If that’s not to your liking, another formerly forested subdivision will no doubt be paving you another golden opportunity in minimum wage retail labor within a few years, as always.

  44. Thirdeye
    June 15, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Just go ahead and wear your elitism and ecobabble, 3:28.

  45. Bolithio
    June 16, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Anon; you have a steadfast narrative of what ‘I’ am and you are consistently wrong. You accuse me of this and that, and all the while can not offer anything substantial to the discussion. It is becoming increasingly apparent that you are not capable of articulating any arguments on the subject, and instead just rely on insults.

    Is your interest in this topic merely just to be mean to anyone who isnt adamantly opposed to logging and clearcutting? What a waste! Im sure your smart, perhaps you could apply some of your intellect to science about ecology and biodiversity – then you could actually contribute something to the conversation and the forest it self! There are people who are able to have intelligent debates on this issue without resulting to baseless accusations and insults. Id love to discuss this with those people.

    Give it another try. Can you respond without insults?! What do you have to say about this:

    70% of the wood in CA is imported and comes from places where there are little to no regulations! A 20 acre clearcut on Green Diamond is nothing compared to the hectacres cleared daily in Siberia or Brazil. And whats worse is most times these places are actually deforested – that is converted to other uses such as grazing.

    If you had a choice, would you prefer that the USA get wood from CA – the most regulated forest practice environment on the planet, or from OR and WA where there are no clearcut size restrictions (that means 2-5 times the area cut than on Green Diamond), or worse, from developing nations where very sensitive forest environments are being deforested?

    This is why I promote CA logging. If you are not in favor of it, and work to hinder it, you support the alternative – unregulated logging in the 3rd world.

  46. Anonymous
    June 16, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Bolithio, I have not responded with insults. You are being emotional and have not responded to simple facts about clearcutting.

    You present an irrelevant hypothetical: “If you had a choice,”

    Your question has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that clearcutting is harmful to the environment and its practice should stop immediately.

    The only reasons you state to continue clearcutting are financial. You are employed in the industry, you are emotionally and financially associated with a bad industry practice. You continue to justify it in this very thread. You continue to be emotional about it, even claiming my response is simply emotional. It has nothing to do with who I am or what I do. Somebody has been clearcutting all these years, somebody continues to clearcut today.

  47. Bolithio
    June 16, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    You present an irrelevant hypothetical: “If you had a choice,”

    Your question has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that clearcutting is harmful to the environment and its practice should stop immediately.

    Silly. It has everything to due with the fact that unregulated logging is absolutely harmfull! – especially in non-temperate environments where the forest systems are very sensitive. You seem to be able to come to the conclusion that job outsourcing to the 3rd world is harmful to the environment and human rights, yet you dont think that same thing applies to logging? And it is not a hypothetical choice. We are setting a policy that effects where our products will come from. You seem to ignore the fact that clear cutting in CA is only done in a regulated fashion (with slope considerations, riparian buffers, sediment controls, endangered species protection, site preparation, restocking, cultural and historical site protection, worker safety, and on and on). These are things that are not done elsewhere – get it?

  48. Anonymous
    June 16, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Bolithio, what do you think you’re talking about? You insist it’s an either/or matter, but it is not. You are trying to put words in somebody’s mouth, not the other way around. You also get a paycheck to participate in logging, not the other way around.

    Clearcutting should stop right now. Get it?

    Clearcutting should stop in china, Clearcutting should stop in russia, Clearcutting should stop in south america, and clearcutting should sure as hell should stop in Humboldt County. You are a sick individual to continue arguing otherwise.

  49. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 8:59 am

    You are a sick individual to continue arguing otherwise.

    Does sick = a foundation in science? Tell me, how do you account for the supply and demand fundamentals that shape the consumption of forest products? Do you not realize that the scales of the global economy will self correct by balancing the deficit of product from one place be getting it from another? The loss of manufacturing in the US has not led to less demand. It just offset where things are manufactured. This is exactly the same for resource extraction.

    Yes, I argue in favor of a mitigated, regulated clear-cut in CA over the unregulated mass destruction of tropical and boreal forests. Forests which are a 100 times more sensitive and critical to the global climate than our stable temperate forests.

    Do you even understand the significance of forest types relative to their climatic biomes?

  50. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Sick = continuing to support clearcutting in Humboldt County.

    Bolithio = supports and participates in clearcutting in Humboldt County.

  51. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Ill take that as a ‘no’. lol

  52. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Good to know this >> http://tinyurl.com/cf4u7ph << is a laughing matter to you, Bolithio.

    Delusional meth dealers justify their trade by stating demand, too. Old growth is almost entirely gone forever because of "demand". Nobody was obliged to profit from destroying so much forest. Nobody is obliged to profit from such a harmful practice now. Shame on you, Bolithio.

  53. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Thats the perfect link! Almost all of those pictures of from other states and countries. Note the lack of riparian buffers and size/adjacency limits in the places that are not in CA. Your starting to understand!

    Ill see the most aggressive picture (from the last 10-20 years), such as the SPI one, and raise you a Mount Rainer, or a Finland, or an Alabama, or a Canada, or a Brazil, or a….

  54. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 10:18 am

    http://tinyurl.com/6vyu325

    What’s your salary, bolithio? Care to share? What’s it cost to get somebody like you to be a cheerleader for clearcutting in Humboldt County these days?

  55. Dan
    June 18, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    unanonymous says:
    June 11, 2012 at 10:11 am

    “Things people don’t want to understand:
    1. Spraying herbicides allows the conifer to regenerate faster and reduces the amount of opportunistic species to colonize the slopes.”

    What unanon is offering us is 2-4D.
    A defoliant product of the Agent Orange category-
    use to be aerially applied in Humboldt County.
    No thanks, not in my watershed.

    If by “opportunistic species colonizing the slopes-”
    I take it you are speaking of the natural succession
    broad leafs that actually nurse and protect the slower growing
    conifers which actually makes possible decent lumber.

  56. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    10:18, the fact that no one wants to pay you for your knowledge doesn’t somehow make your opinions pure. You’re getting paid what your opinions are worth. Jumping up and down screaming about clearcutting this, clearcutting that just shows how ignorant you are.

    Dan, conflating 2,4-D with agent orange is factually wrong. The problem with agent orange was dioxin contamination associated with a specific manufacturing process for 2,4,5-T. 2,4,5-T underwent a regulatory clampdown as a result of the agent orange problems and has been banned outright for about 30 years.

  57. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    “Dan, conflating 2,4-D with agent orange is factually wrong.”

    Wrong, thirdeye. It is as correct as “conflating” toxic chemicals. If you’d care to demonstrate otherwise, perhaps drink a cup of locally distributed herbicides, or allow your children to come in contact with them, I’d be open to considering a different conflation.

  58. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Dan, where did you get that bit about broadleaf species making decent lumber possible? Tanoak sure doesn’t help conifers along.

  59. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    4:07, you clearly don’t know squat about the issues with agent orange. Do you think gasoline shouldn’t be used because you can’t drink it?

  60. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    I don’t think gasoline should be sprayed in forests either. My father can tell you a few things about agent orange, you stupid motherfucker. Go fucking die somewhere already, shithead.

  61. steak n eggs
    June 18, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    4:13…wow, you are really articulate! I mean, super persusive with you’re well thought out arguements. Makes me want to hang up my cork boots and chainsaw and instead hug a tree. Just keep shoving it down their throats, but LOUDER!

  62. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    What is your contribution to the dialog, steak n eggs?

  63. Dan
    June 18, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    Thirdeye says:
    June 18, 2012 at 4:08 pm
    Dan, where did you get that bit about broadleaf species making decent lumber possible? Tanoak sure doesn’t help conifers along.

    I’ve found that conifers that grow without competition, grow to fast,
    (growth rings 1/4 inch apart) rendering their wood weaker than the conifers that had to compete for sunlight.
    Maybe there is something about tanoak I am not aware of, otherwise it would have the same effect as if it were ceanothus,
    shading and competing until the conifer finally pops through the
    canopy.
    making a stronger (better) but, longer to grow, lumber.

  64. Dan
    June 18, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    From Wikipedia the (2-4D was a major ingredient in Agent Orange)
    2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (usually referred to by its abbreviation, 2,4-D) is a common systemic pesticide/herbicide used in the control of broadleaf weeds. It is the most widely used herbicide in the world, and the third most commonly used in North America.[1] 2,4-D is a synthetic auxin (plant hormone), and as such it is often used in laboratories for plant research and as a supplement in plant cell culture media such as MS medium. It was a major ingredient in Agent Orange alongside its chemically similar relative, 2,4,5-T (2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid).

    Thirdeye, I hope this answers your question.

  65. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Dan, 2,4,5-T has been banned because of the inevitable dioxin contamination that occurs during the manufacturing process(es). The stuff used in agent orange was manufactured with a process that resulted in high dioxin contamination. That process was abandoned and 2,4,5-T was banned for use on food crops when the problems were recognized around 1970. It was eventually banned outright because of the dioxin issue. 2,4-D does not have the dioxin problem that 2,4,5-T had.

    Crown competition within a stand and overtopping of conifers by hardwoods are different issues. The former can be used to produce higher quality wood. The latter can keep a conifer stand from becoming established. Those seedlings need help.

    4:13,35, your competition to the dialog is simply a tantrum.

  66. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Stop clearcutting in Humboldt County now!

    http://tinyurl.com/6vyu325

  67. Not A Native
    June 18, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Bolithio wrote:

    “If we shut down our large forest product producers in the CA, the demand does not diminish”

    His first contention, that FSC certification will shut down Green Diamond was revealed here as a pure scare tactic.

    His second contention, that demand does not diminish is also pure BS. Lumber, as sawn by GD, is a commodity. Commodity usage is elastic(that means it can diminish) based on many factors, primarily price and alternatives. Does Bolithio contend the worldwide economic decline hasn’t diminished the “demand” for lumber?

    To further ridicule Bolithio’s contention, If GD gets FSC certification and increases its lumber prices, then just which ‘undiminishing demand’ won’t be met? Or will GD’s certified lumber go unsold?

    Bottom line, Bolithio is a hack. Some logger who took a couple of training classes, calls himself a forester(and might even have a certificate) but really doesn’t know anything about economics or science other than filling out forms for the California Department of Forestry.

  68. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Contribution, not competition.

    The biggest hack of all is Dr. Pot. He starts out with a straw man argument, that Bolithio is somehow contending that FSC would somehow shut down Green Diamond. He overlooks the fact that California’s demand for wood products has resulted in importation of 70% of wood products from areas where it is less costly to produce, largely due to regulatory processes. He also makes the unwarranted assumption that wood consumers will pay the premium for some feel-good stamp when price competition among wood producers has seldom been higher. Home Depot isn’t going to sell much FSC wood if wood consumers decide the premium isn’t worth it and find another source.

  69. tra
    June 18, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    Well apparently Green Diamond thinks FSC certification is worthwhile, since they’re the ones who initiated the process. Nobody’s forcing them to seek the FSC certification. My guess — and yes, it’s only a guess — is that Green Diamond has done the market research and believes the demand will be there.

  70. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    I have nothing whatsoever to do with this: http://tinyurl.com/72rd6z5

    This should stop happening right now: http://tinyurl.com/72rd6z5

    Somebody is doing this in exchange for money: http://tinyurl.com/72rd6z5

    This should not happen in Humboldt County: http://tinyurl.com/72rd6z5

    This is the real environment: http://tinyurl.com/72rd6z5

    There is only one of these, and that’s no bullshit: http://tinyurl.com/7zo9n4t

  71. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    Oh look NAN’s here to ridicule people! Fantastic.

    I never made the first ‘contention’.

    I stand by the second contention, and so will all forest economists. Of course the economic conditions globally have effected demand. Particularly the demand for cheaper, less regulated products and industries. Hence the third world boom in the tropical and boreal regions.

    Lumber prices wont increase much if at all following FSC. The real motive is to maintain market share, where the other large producer of redwood is ahead (MRC/HRC). And lumber will go unsold too in periods of low growth. Its.. complicated. Oh, but your the lumber/forest economy expert NAN, right!!!

    And regarding your last paragraph, thanks but no thanks. Your juvenile bullying doesn’t hurt my feelings. It also doesn’t make for fun conversation, so why don’t you just go back to your pathetic cave of mean spirits and leave us alone.

  72. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Here is Bolithio’s dialog with only select words corrected for literal application to clearcutting:

    “I stand by the second contention, and so will all clearcutters. Of course the environmental conditions globally have effected price. Particularly the price of cheaper, less regulated clearcut trees and related industries. Hence the third world boom of clearcutting in the tropical and boreal regions.

    Clearcutting will not cease at all following FSC. The real motive is profit, where the other large producer of clearcut trees is ahead (MRC/HRC). And clearcut trees will go unsold too in periods of low growth, but eventually generate profit. Its as real as clearcutting.

    Why don’t you just leave us clearcutters alone.”

  73. Not A Native
    June 18, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Bolothio if you didn’t care, you would nhave not responded. The truth hurts only because you’re living a lie, and you know it.

  74. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    So says Dr. Pot, the chronic and habitual liar.

  75. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    Care about what? Personally I post on blogs because it can be fun to share ideas with other people. Why do you do it again? To ridicule people? Bravo!!

  76. Bolithio
    June 18, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    Anon @ 7:08; Did you know HRC/MRC only use selection?

  77. Anonymous
    June 18, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Bolithio, I’m sure you’re aware of the metaphore ‘raping mother earth’. I should be glad I can’t imagine what must be done to constitute such a metaphore within you, that the practice of clearcutting isn’t enough to satisfy.

  78. Dan
    June 18, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    “Those seedlings need help.” Thirdeye

    What type of help? Water? Or what used to be called
    “conifer release”- removal of competition for sunlight.
    No good reason why, those conifers would eventually out-compete
    their broadleaf competition, just not fast enough for
    modern forestry.
    The product (lumber) suffers accordingly.
    I’ve spent too many long, hot summers doing what we know colloquially as Manual Conifer Release. I did it for one reason
    Stop The Spray.

  79. Thirdeye
    June 18, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    Dan, the widespread areas dominated by tanoak are the result of regeneration where there was no effort to shade release the conifers. The conifers may *eventually* outcompete the hardwoods, but the suppression of conifers by hardwoods lasts for multiple decades. That’s a bummer environmentally as well as economically.

  80. Dan
    June 19, 2012 at 6:56 am

    “the suppression of conifers by hardwoods lasts for multiple decades. That’s a bummer environmentally as well as economically.” Thirdeye

    Quantity or quality? As a woodworker scanning boards-
    some grew fast, some grew slow. I choose the slow growth.
    Not just that, I pay more for the tight grain.

    Environmentally waiting multiple decades for ones trees to grow properly, seems fitting.
    The release is a shock to the watershed and exposes soil to sunlight and harms the watersheds water holding capability.

    For example, our Redwood, we are not replacing ‘in kind’
    anything close to the quality that we have harvested.

    An example of Tanoak suppression, say Titlow-Hill above
    snow line. The Cedars growing there are magnificent, I believe the Tanoak competition helped rather than hindered the Cedars.
    And yes they have out competed the Tanoak at this point.

  81. Bolithio
    June 19, 2012 at 8:30 am

    Dan and 3Eye:

    If a tree’s growth is effected by competition, it generally doesn’t really matter what the species of trees are. That is, its a density issue. So if a stand is fully stocked with young conifer regeneration, it will have the same growth rates as a stand that is mostly tanoak with a few scattered conifer.

    Sure we could simply say, lets let natural succession run it course. And I can see the argument for that is some cases. Yet its mostly impossible to say that we have ‘natural’ conditions – mainly due to the absence of fire which plays a major role in succession – even in redwoods.

    Dan, you said its ‘too slow for modern forestry’. And I think that is a fair statement. Sure it is. When we can see a route to restore a conifer stand by skipping several decades (if not much longer) of succession it becomes a logical choice.

    As far as chemical control, I can see the arguments for both. I come from the mechanical control school, so I rarely work with herbicides. I have seen hack-n-squirt units turn out really nice though, so Im not completely opposed. But I believe in regulating the application.

    Either way, if the goal is a conifer dominated stand 20 years after regeneration, some control – either chemical or mechanical will be needed on higher sites where tanoak thrive.

  82. Dan
    June 19, 2012 at 8:45 am

    “some control – either chemical or mechanical will be needed on higher sites where tanoak thrive.” Bolithio

    I do not agree. Check above snowline around
    Horse Mountain. Never was released, the watershed is intact in those areas, the soils and microbes are thriving AND the lumber
    is superior. Add a decade to your rotation, keep your tanoak
    and your product will show it.

  83. Bolithio
    June 19, 2012 at 9:00 am

    I wont disagree with you about your observation. Horse Mountain – above the snow line – is a little different than most of the stands I was thinking about. That cedar you are talking about is absolutely a shade tolerant species which needs to grow underneath a well formed canopy. Above the snow line the growing season is shorter, and Ill bet the site index is low, so the trees are growing slow regardless – and that means tight growth rings in the lumber.

    Thats different than eel river valley site II and III redwood or doug-fir stands which where taken over by tanoak following the logging in the 50’s 60’s. This is were restoration efforts are more meaning full.

  84. Anonymous
    June 19, 2012 at 9:14 am

    NAN @ 5:55 is correct, verbatim. First time for everything.

  85. Thirdeye
    June 19, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Tanoak dominance slows conifer regeneration by much more than just a decade. There are rangeland conversions of conifer forests from the first half of the 20th century all over the hills that have been abandoned and are experiencing succession. They’re dominated by hardwoods. That isn’t just slowed conifer regeneration. That is essentially stopped conifer regeneration.

  86. anonymous
    June 19, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Thirdeye and Bolithio look at the trees as if they’re a corn patch. The word Forest is beyond their comprehension.

  87. Dan
    June 19, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    To concentrate and base ones enviro policies on
    a specie or a group of species is an error too often repeated.

    Instead of projects about Cedars or Amophylla or
    Plovers or Layia, concentrate on your wetlands, show
    them the highest regards- Macro-manage, micro-
    management is killing us.

    Keep all soils vegetated, no poisons, concentrate on
    water quality and clearcuts? Bad soils management,
    absolutely non-sustainable. If GD needs to clearcut to
    make a profit, the costs (ruined waterways) will be borne
    by society and the profits? Absolutely private.

  88. Bolithio
    June 19, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    A clear-cut, with a properly applied riparian buffer, has absolutely no effect on a waterway.

    Clearcuts in other states and countries are causing the same problems that happened here prior to regulation and advanced planning. Much worse though, considering the sensitivity of environments in tropical and boreal areas.

  89. June 19, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Bolithio, so you remove everything in an area taking up water and intercepting rain and there is no effect on adjacent waterways? hahahahahahahahaha

  90. Dan
    June 19, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    “A clear-cut, with a properly applied riparian buffer, has absolutely no effect on a waterway.” Bolithio

    Bolithio,
    Have you thought this through, you really want
    to stand by that?

    When Teddy Roosevelt saw his first clear cut
    “[upon seeing a large section of forest that had been clearcut for lumber] I hope the son-of-a-bitch responsible for this burns in Hell!

    I can understand Teddy.

  91. Bolithio
    June 19, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    I can understand Teddy.

    Me too. That was when? Circa 1890? Things were slightly different back then…

    Yeh, Ill stand by what the widely known studies have found regarding the effects of clearcuts on sedimentation, turbidity, woody debris, organic mater, and temperature. If you do not apply riparian buffers, clearcuts can adversely effect all of those things.

  92. Anonymous
    June 19, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Bolithio and Thirdeye sound like a couple of wannabe oil execs deciding where to drill next.

  93. Thirdeye
    June 19, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    ….and the Anonymous tantrum continues…..

  94. High Finance
    June 19, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    I hope for our country’s sake that everybody in postions of authority are “deciding where to drill next”.

    Our country (and our children’s) future depends on it.

  95. uhh....
    June 20, 2012 at 10:00 am

    “A clear-cut, with a properly applied riparian buffer, has absolutely no effect on a waterway.”

    uhhh…

  96. Dan
    June 20, 2012 at 10:07 am

    HiFi thinks ” “deciding where to drill next”.
    Our country (and our children’s) future depends on it.”

    I agree. How about we drill a hole in JP Morgan.
    Start with Jamie ‘Dimon’-tip bit.

  97. Anonymous
    June 20, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    How about we put industry smokestacks right upwind of high finance, thirdeye and bolithio’s homes. For the sake of the children, clearcutting is necessary!!!(???)

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