Home > Uncategorized > Wings Against Meth

Wings Against Meth

  1. Anonymous
    September 5, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    And…the money goes where….to do what?

  2. Eric Kirk
    September 5, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Fair enough question. I don’t know much about the organization or what it does, but here’s the website. I do trust a number of the people involved, but probably a page summarizing some of the work would be a good idea.

    http://www.chickenwingfest.org/index.html

  3. September 6, 2012 at 12:12 am

    We’re an all volunteer 5013c registered non profit and the proceeds go to fight meth abuse. We have donated proceeds to the Hum co Health and Human services and to the Eureka Problem Oriented Police and would like to educate youth and adults on the effects of meth abuse. Some of the board would like to conduct a media campaign like the controversially effective Montana Meth project which may have reduced meth use by 72% relatively in Montana. –According to a 2007 Montana State Office of Public Instruction Report,[17] since the inception of the program in 2005, there has also been a 72% relative decrease in adult methamphetamine use, and a 62% relative decline in methamphetamine-related crimes.[18] Additionally, the percentage of teenagers who are aware of meth’s dangers increased from 25% to 93%, and Montana’s ranking among U.S. states in meth abuse fell from #5 to #39.[19] – See http://methproject.org and check our the very hard hitting commercials.

  4. Eric Kirk
    September 6, 2012 at 12:14 am

    And there’s your answer. Thank you Mr. Krueger.

    Time for bed for me.

  5. G. Gilbert Yule
    September 6, 2012 at 6:59 am

    Wouldn’t miss it. It combines two of my favorite things. Tasty wings and our lovely
    bay.

  6. Jack Sherman
    September 6, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Psychologists have known for years that some people are inclined to abuse drugs, no matter what, while most respond to education, as I did when the teacher showed us those brown lungs and rotten teeth due to cigarettes and poor hygiene.

    Fully funding prisons, without also fully funding education, community rehab centers, job training, placement, (and jobs!), is self-defeating and barbaric.

  7. September 6, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Jack Sherman :  ***

    Fully funding prisons, without also fully funding education, community rehab centers, job training, placement, (and jobs!), is self-defeating and barbaric.

    Education, training and self-fulfilling jobs totally defeats the purpose of the so-called war on drugs. For some insight into the real purpose you might want to read this: Because we destroyed ourselves. It’s rather fitting, I’d say since it shows how really self-defeating and barbaric the whole thing is.

  8. suzy blah blah
    September 6, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    -legalize methamphetamine and educate realistically. The ads on the methproject site are melodramatic BS. Reminiscent of reefer madness propaganda from the 30s.

  9. Eric Kirk
    September 6, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    I’m not sure I would support the legalization of meth. I understand the arguments, but the dynamics are different with each drug and this one is considerably different from marijuana. I might support some pilot programs where you have centers where you can come and use safely administered hard drugs – as a part of a recovery program where you are weaning yourself off the habit. But this is a dangerous one to be on the street.

  10. High Finance
    September 7, 2012 at 8:21 am

    “I’m not sure” about legalization of Meth ? Stop being a wuss & take a stand.

    “centers where you can come and use safely administered hard drugs” ? Why don’t you just open suicide centers instead & get rid of the surplus population ?

  11. September 7, 2012 at 8:31 am

    Or better yet a “Suicide Booth.” on every other corner. Futurama, Baby.

  12. Eric Kirk
    September 7, 2012 at 8:33 am

    High Finance – I’m not a conservative, which means that unlike you, I’m not an expert on everything under the sun. I’m not an expert on things I know nothing about.

    There are pilot programs such as those I described being tried in Europe, with mixed success. What’s clear is that your desired approach as failed. Miserably.

  13. Anonymous
    September 7, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Eric, PLEASE stop flattering bigoted Reich-Wingnuts with the “conservative” compliment, it is extremely inaccurate. If anything, the anti-war/environmental visionaries of the ’60’s turned out to be the true conservatives.

    Has everyone forgotten the rapid side-effects of bootleg whiskey? A short, blind, painful life and the most violent mob this nation ever knew.

  14. September 7, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    Eric says, “I’m not an expert on everything under the sun. I’m not an expert on things I know nothing about.”

    I say, “You sure could of fooled me. In fact, you sure can fool a lot of people.”

  15. Not A Native
    September 7, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Suzy is the only non-hypocrite in the crowd.

    And other than prohibition mentality, what is the scientific difference between a “hard” prohibited drug and other contraband drugs? And please, don’t use the old “Everybody knows….” or history of the Controlled Substances Act.

  16. suzy blah blah
    September 7, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    But this is a dangerous one to be on the street.

    -it’s already on the street, duh. I don’t believe that legalization of meth (as well as legalization of other drugs like heroin, etc.) will increase the user population. They’ve
    showed evidence of that in Great Britain. But it will improve the quality of the substances and thereby the health of the users. It will eliminate home made meth labs, shooting galleries, etc., and largely diminish the crime surrounding the whole scene. It’ll help empty jails. Addicts will be availed of treatment, as alcoholics are now.

    The methproject site’s reefer madness style of melodramatic fear mongering is only exasperating the problem by demonizing “tweekers” and polarizing community. Sure they may be able to come up with something that they can call “positive statistics”, but the chickens will come home to roost when the kids see through the blatant propaganda. I plan to boycott all the businesses listed on the poster and will suggest to everyone I know that they do likewise. I don’t support keeping meth illegal any more than i support a return of bathtub gin and bootleg liquor.

  17. Will Strunk
    September 7, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    I’ve always wondered if there really is a correlation between legalising an illegal drug and increased use. . .beyond “I think,” “it’s obvious,” and “maybe.” It’s there on the street, bigtime, but I wonder if, say, Altria started peddling meth, and advertising it to kids (using Madison Avenue’s ability to control us) if THAT might be a problem.

    And it’s “exacerbating”, not “exasperating”. You on something?

  18. suzy blah blah
    September 7, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    -exacerbating noted, thanx.

  19. Eric Kirk
    September 7, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    And other than prohibition mentality, what is the scientific difference between a “hard” prohibited drug and other contraband drugs? And please, don’t use the old “Everybody knows….” or history of the Controlled Substances Act.

    Prohibition of any activity is much more successful if there is a consensus on the stigma (using the term with a neutral focus). The use of marijuana is culturally accepted, even encouraged in certain areas. There is no cultural association with meth to speak of. It’s thoroughly transgressional – even you won’t defend its recreational use. You can control an act much more easily if there is consensus as to the nature of the act. We can’t prevent murder for instance, but we can greatly reduce it’s occurrence using the coercive apparatus of the state.

    There is a pro-marijuana lobby. There is no pro-meth lobby.

  20. Ben Thair
    September 7, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Amphetamines are not transgressional in the military.

  21. Anonymous
    September 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Or when prescribed to children…by the truckload.

  22. suzy blah blah
    September 7, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    There is no cultural association with meth to speak of

    -Beatles, Dylan, Johnny Cash, Charlie Parker, Sartre, Burroughs, Capote, Monroe, Judy Garland, Robbert Downy Jr, Lenny Bruce, Salvador Dali, Robert Raushenberg, Andy Warhol. The list goes on and on of people who had huge influences on culture who also used meth. All documented. Not to mention all those we don’t know about due to the secrecy bred from its stigma. JFK used it.

  23. September 8, 2012 at 10:47 am

    You’re advocating meth use? Unbelievable.

  24. September 8, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Eric says: “We can’t prevent murder for instance, but we can greatly reduce it’s occurrence using the coercive apparatus of the state.”

    And that is based upon what? Your expert opinion? Or simply your wishful thinking? Or is that one of your expounding beliefs?

  25. Not A Native
    September 8, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    I too doubt that “coercive apparatus…” prevents many murders.

    By definition murder is premeditated homicide. And the murderous intent preempts concern of potential later “coercion”.

    Eric shows himself to be politically conservative, claiming the death penalty prevents murder. But we’ll certainly find out how Eric attempts to weasel his way out to retain his claimed mantle of “PROGRESIVE”. But it ain’t true.

    Now “coercive apparatus” probably does prevent many homicides due to carelessness, neglect, or immediate anger. But those acts aren’t murder. I for one am coerced to not drive too recklessly by the possibility of long jail or prison time, in addition to wanting not to be the immediate cause of a death.

  26. September 8, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Joe, I suspect that’s just a slip of the tongue for Eric’s last statement to come out reading quite that way. I think he’s on very firm ground in his main thrust, of which this could have been worded better as an example:

    “Prohibition of any activity is much more successful if there is a consensus on the stigma (using the term with a neutral focus). … You can control an act much more easily if there is consensus as to the nature of the act.”

    This leads me to you, Suzy, whose own words I found myself thinking over quite carefully last night, and doing a little research.

    First of all, your list is highly incomplete without other names of period. Adolph Hitler, for example, who apparently quite liked his own amphetamines.

    Barbituates and amphetamines were the staple of drug conversation for much of the middle of the century, aside from the marijuana and heroin of the ‘lower’ classes. Lots of art made about them, and most of it as with Marilyn Monroe’s reality, not with nice atmosphere or endings.

    Notice we are speaking of amphetamine, not methamphetamine, which though discovered in the same 1890’s, wasn’t much available until the 1980’s.

    Methamphetamine,is far stronger and more addictive than other amphetamine compounds, which caused such an amount of trouble on their own. It is for example much more likely to result in drug-induced psychosis.

    Amphetamines themselves were experimented with and used by bomber crews on the Allied side, and by soldiers on the Axis side during WWII. The Allies decided against them due to just those problems of mental instability, and went to using Dexadrine. You’ll know that low doses are part of attention aids like Ritalin and Adderol, and of course in diet pills which are now required to be only by perscription, due to the same dangers.

    In other words, you’re quite incorrect that methamphetamines were used by many of the persons on your list; your list doesn’t include many, many bad examples from Hitler on down, and of those we may well appreciate, the very talented Robert Downey Jr., who I really enjoy and appreciate, surely the well-known facts of his life alone would support a quite negative conclusion. Once gain, the artist survived _in_spite_ of great threat which they fell into by experimenting with strong drugs.

    Here I feel to come back to Eric’s accuracy of insight, about things which yes, have been experimented with, and for which there’s a pretty sweeping societal conclusion that they are bad business. It’s a principle that can also be abused, of course, but when you have a truly wide base of personal conclusion, there tends to be some truth in it, just as in those tribally civilized cultural taboos and traditions which you and I discussed Europeans of a century ago having a particular interest in.

    What drew me to go into this was a non-plussed feeling which came in seeing you come out with yet another set of very broad-brush, flat statements that everything known of should be made available without caution or restriction.

    I consider this rather unexpected thinking for someone who seems to be pretty well educated in art history, for example. What happens for you to the essential artistic practice of very finely making distinctions, for example?

    I could make all sorts of speculations as to what may drive you and apparently sometimes Amy in this mission, but whatever those truths may individually turn out to be, I can’t think of any politics or personal happenstance which would step beyond an essential adult responsibility — which as far as I have found it, only grows with experience.

    We put rat poison in containers with clear labels. We require admittedly imperfect professional advice before going near compounds at the mildest edge of what you speak, as well as many others in their always present mix of medicinal use and dosages of toxicity. We require bands of educated persons, professional officiators, to decide where the worst materials, the curares, radiums, etc. can be used in quest of some possible decidable benefit.

    I like very much to listen with and encourage to come to visibility any amount of very personal takes on subjects here. It’s interesting, it’s instructive, it’s personal in the sense of enjoying to know persons, to appreciate each of us in spite of what they may actually feel their own mistakes. And it’s often enough suggestive in ways I’m most deeply interested in, towards a future we are more than we probably often know, now inventing.

    I subscribe also to agreement that ‘Reefer Madness’ was a nonsense — though to think about it led me also to recall in surprising detail how the occasional radio drama of similar subject and period was chilling, and far more effective.

    Also I found memory cast over all those turns of life I saw and which gave pain each time, for someone turning from best awareness into the cannibis fog. It’s something those tending to art I think would always feel pain to, for art is about awakeness, isn’t it?

    Again, I’m sure you have some drive behind the words you stream out sometimes, Suzy. I don’t enquire exactly about it, as I’m sure that which you wish to will eventually come out. I bite my tongue from asking if you really want all those poisons of radiation and deeper organic involvement made free in the sense you argue for some of them.

    I guess I would just ask as to any friend, that you consider where you make your distinctions, and find how useful it can be to make them quite carefully. That walking along the peak edge that Georgia O’Keeffe, and many other artists have spoken of, as their own experience.

    Best on your week-end, both of you.

  27. Felix
    September 8, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Aside from ending the prison Industrial complex by ending prohibition(YES) I am compelled to note that with all these drugs illegal, the consumers are exposed to dangerously inferior street-quality drugs, greatly increasing the harm they do. To the user and the party they may victimize to get their street-priced ‘fix’ (and the healthcare system for that matter).
    Prison sentences destabilize many communities (no coincidence). They deprive wholesale the voting ability of these same communities (in many states – again, NO coincidence).
    And as Ben Thair noted, our military still uses ’em……
    Breaking Bad (TV) is the most hard core anti-meth propaganda ever! And an addictive entertainment at that.

  28. September 8, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Useful points, Felix, thanks (I just happened to look in).

    Over years in Europe, I saw a number of experiments and some results with how to handle what you bring up.

    Times-and-places legalization of lower-level drugs – in Amsterdam, particularly, it has been largely moved away from, as the sheer volume of problem persons and worse it attracted overwhelmed the hoped-for benefits. Open prostitution is maintained.

    Low-level-policing-acceptance, while pushing use to go outside public areas, in Norway – this may have somewhat reduced criminality (not sure it did) and quality concerns, but in any case seemed to work inversely in terms of reducing public danger and nuisance. The more thoughtful among the users left little careful packets in a styroform coffee cups in corners of building walls on city streets, replete with makings and syringes. Unfortunately, right where 3-year-old curiosity and carelessness among others would run right into them. Not judging this one as a success, as besides seeming the drugs still came from European criminal networks, also as it left police (I watched them do it) in the position of having to intimidate users, who then just showed up in places like the steps leading up to the national Art Gallery, snapping their arms and adjusting rubber bands leading to the fix.

    State-substituting-as-drug-source-for-addicts – this I got to see close at hand, living in Basel for some years. I think it worked to circumvent your problem issues. It wasn’t very pleasant to walk to places as you normally would, through the hordes of takers with their greedy aspects at the agencies nearing hand-out hours, and as they spread out to take their doses wearing the same highly focused intent. And it didn’t stop me from finding syringes among the bushes in areas children play, and having to throw them away in drinks bottles to minimize the HIV risk. But I think it did accomplish the good purposes.

    Not an easy subject, no doubt. Above I’m questioning from another view. Possibly it’s not as different as I have thought.

  29. September 8, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    And some in the blogosphere accuse ME of being too wordy? LORD!

  30. September 8, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    p.s. feel at least one distinction needs to be kept here, on the military question.

    Amphetamines yes, Methamphetamines no. According at least to sources I can find, who often correct people who confuse the two in the military purpose, not to speak of ritalin etc., which have of course their own questions.. As always with medicines, dosage highly matters.

    I’d think you’d well make those distinctions, if you were the one charged to be responsible to stay awake for an extended mission, while remaining in mental stability to be able to fly the plane. So would the medicals dispensing the stuff and in measured dosage, just calculated to be fit for that purpose.

  31. September 8, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Says: “Joe, I suspect that’s just a slip of the tongue for Eric’s last statement …” That’s just the point, IT WAS NOT. It’s always only a matter of time before the truth comes out. And no matter how the apologist try to justify, they always fail.

  32. September 8, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Not me (yet), Joe ;).

    This one is about cases, or it rapidly gets reduced to generalities. Also, only carefully expressed thinking is respected, as I imagine you’ve seen.

    Best…

  33. suzy blah blah
    September 8, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    @Joe, all three of your guesses are correct, but the third one “beliefs” is the key.

    @NAN, to retain his claimed mantle of “PROGRESSIVE” LOL! awaiting the weasel show.

    @Filix, good point about the danger of the inferior product that comes out of illegal meth-labs and is so prevalent on the streets.

    @Narator, Enjoy the weekend. Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  34. Eric Kirk
    September 8, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    The phrase “coercive apparatus of the state” was deliberate, and applies to any situation in which the government punishes transgressive behavior. Yes, I do believe that if there were no laws against murder, and consequently no punishment for committing murder, murder rates would be much higher. No, I guess I don’t have the science to prove it. I regard it as more a postulate than a theorem. I know that anarchists disagree. I am not an anarchist, and though I have great respect for the anarchist ideology, I fear that it takes far too optimistic a view of human nature.

    Laws backed by force, whether they pertain to murder or jaywalking, are effective when the principle behind the law is backed by a critical mass of the public. The consensus for preventing meth use, by any means, is much higher than the consensus for preventing marijuana use. The consensus for preventing marijuana use is a bit higher than that for preventing the drinking of wine. The drinking of wine is opposed by a very small subset of the population. The threshold is probably best defined by the level of civil disobedience. There are many who will smoke marijuana in political defiance of prohibition. Some may even be willing to go to jail in such a protest. I have met nobody, not even the most libertarian of us, who will go to Sacramento, onto the steps of the capital building, and take meth in public protest.

    As for my “progressive mantle,” well, my views are what they are. Label them as you prefer.

  35. suzy blah blah
    September 8, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Jack Kerouac wrote the entire cult classic novel On the Road while on speed. Isn’t that terrible. Someone should have tried to “coerce” him into a more stultifying position where he could have made more accurate distinctions and thus a more positive contribution. If he wouldn’t of been messing around with drugs he could have found a path to happiness in a more civilized manner, like a wife and two kids with a car in the garage and a retirement plan from the post office. This would’ve been a productive contribution to society. But no, he had to go off the deep end and become a drug fueled “writer”! And culture has suffered for it ever since, heaven forbid.

  36. September 8, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Hello….? Stuck in “Moderation” since 10:47am…is anybody home?

  37. Eric Kirk
    September 8, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    Kerouac was also a heavy drinker who in later life became a right winger ranting about how the communists took over the Beat movement – his last appearance being a drunken one on Buckley’s Firing Line. Shortly thereafter he died at 47 years old coughing up large amounts of blood. He If that’s your best defense of the use of meth Suzy, you shouldn’t have bothered.

  38. September 8, 2012 at 11:04 pm

    All persons read with interest — thanks to each.

    Moviedad, I had trouble like that a few days ago – post not registered, post stuck in moderation, next day disappearing, etc.. I wrote an email, but no response there either, except the desiperado the next day. Probably they are having trouble in control central.

    I’d just post it again. I copy mine before sending, in case needed. Inability to regenerate also, no doubt ;)

  39. September 8, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    p.s. to any for whom this discussion is about anarchism (is it? very interesting) I have to think of the classic by Ursula Le Guin, ‘The Dispossessed’.

    It keeps regaining attraction in different ways, at least personally, and in particular is an interesting and very humane take on Kropotkin, who seems to have been pretty humane himself, in his intention.

    Now I am really going to get it…but if you think to try the book, pay no attention to any rocket ship on the cover. Writers have nothing to do with choosing covers. Though even an exceedingly brief rocket ship is interestingly considered here. The story is about who goes, and who is met, on either ends of journeys, and very much about lives here.

  40. jr
    September 8, 2012 at 11:38 pm

    And then there is Murray Bookchin’s work “Post-Scarcity Anarchism” that is worth reading and contemplating.

  41. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Loved The Dispossessed. Her best novel is the Left Hand of Darkness, but The Dispossessed is a close second.

    It makes a good double feature read with Marge Piercy’s Woman on the Edge of Time, also involving a semi-anarchist utopian future.

  42. September 9, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    I looked into Murray Bookchin late last night, and Marge Piercy this morning.

    Very interesting, from each of you. Thanks for the suggestions, appreciated.

  43. suzy blah blah
    September 9, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    -Eric, “coughing up blood”! -omgosh! That’s even scarier than those jive-ass ads on the website. LOL! Too bad BAMU doesn’t have a video of that to scare the kids better. No Eric, the deception on the website and your BS about culture are much more disgusting than Kerouac’s truth. And he wasn’t the only one to give us truth in an atmosphere full of lies. Look over the list suzy made, Beatles, Dylan, Warhol, and on and on, even JFK used speed. Did these people influence culture? Their influence was enormous. Kerouac had a HUGE influence on our culture. I’m sorry for anyone like you who can’t see that or deceivingly denies it. You are just propagating deception. I feel sorry for your kids to have to hear such foul crap oozing from their father’s mouth, ew. The truth is that Kerouac had more influence on the culture than you and your progressive pals will ever even imagine having.

    If you miss Kerouac and his message you are missing the wisdom contained in now classic novels that had a great deal to do with the shaping of the 2nd half of the 20th century. Amazingly enough he wrote the whole manuscript of On the Road in three weeks on speed. He used one roll of paper hundreds of feet long to type it on. And he presented it to the publisher uncorrected and they published it just like it was. Did it have an influence on culture? Sheeesh! Only a complete moron can’t see that it did. Besides being a master of spontaneity, Kerouac was a great GREAT literary genius. With enormous generosity he gave society 20 or so novels and several books of poetry that helped to influence the course of humanity. Gee, it’s too bad he got drunk on tv once.

    “The best teacher is experience and not through someone’s distorted point of view”
    ― Jack Kerouac, On the Road

    Again, i encourage everyone to boycott the businesses on the poster.

  44. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    He was a great writer, probably the greatest of the Beat writers excepting Burroughs, who was also very tragic in his choices, including of course heroin.

    Speed didn’t kill Kerouac. Alcohol did. I was just remarking on your poor choice of role model for personal health.

    And if you really believe that communists took over the Beat movement, well, don’t let me try to change your mind. Amiri Baraka is the only Beat communist who comes to mind, and he became a communist years after the last Beatnik banged on his last conga in public.

  45. Plain Jane
    September 9, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    I thought beatniks preferred bongo drums.

  46. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    I don’t know PJ. It was before my time.

  47. suzy blah blah
    September 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    if you really believe that communists took over the Beat movement . . .

    -did suzy say that? No of course i didn’t. Eric lives in a fantasy world made up of flimsy unfounded conclusions. Then he reacts to his own illusions as though they were real and can thus pretend authoritativeness. He ignores the enormity of the point about the influence of speed on culture, and in its place he sets up a pitiful little straw man that he tries to make from a red herring that he found out in left field. LOL! This nonsense doesn’t even have the herky-jerky kind of finesse that his usual bobbing and weaving displays.

  48. suzy blah blah
    September 9, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    if you really believe that communists took over the Beat movement . . .

    -did suzy say that? No of course i didn’t. Eric lives in a fantasy world made up of flimsy unfounded conclusions. Then he reacts to his own illusions as though they were real and can thus pretend authoritativeness. He ignores the enormity of the point about the influence of speed on culture, and in its place he sets up a pitiful little straw man that he tries to make from a red herring that he found out in left field. LOL! This nonsense doesn’t even have the herky-jerky kind of finesse that his usual bobbing and weaving displays.

    Sorry if this appears twice but the moderation faculty is fucked up.

  49. Not A Native
    September 9, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Just wonder whether Eric’s certainty that the prospect of receiving unpleasant force deters people from doing things they’ve already decided to do applies only to “other people” or to his children and spouse as well.

    Of course, a belief in the deterrant virtue of corporal punishment puts Eric in with those who preach “spare the rod, spoil the child”.

  50. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    (Sigh). I just wonder if NAN ever gets tired of arguing with her own strawmen rather than discussing what I actually say.

  51. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    -did suzy say that? No of course i didn’t.

    In response to my post, you referenced “Kerouac’s truth.”

    He was an addict who could put words together well. Do you really think it was the speed which made him creative?

  52. suzy blah blah
    September 9, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    -Eric, no i don’t think it was speed that made him creative, i never said i did. I also never said that i thought that communists took over the Beat movement, that’s a ridiculously large stretch as well as petty idea for you to choose to respond with when i made so many other points. I was of course referring to the truth in his 20 novels not some emotionally immature statement he used to make to get attention when he was drunk. And you know that. Sounds more like a drunk’s emotions coming up, rather than anything seriously political. Really, i think he was a pretty sad guy. You get that from the books. In the episode in Tom Wolfes’ book, when he visited Neil Cassady in Ken Keesey’s bus when they were doing the Koolaide acid test he refused to sit on an American flag that was draped over a chair, said that LSD was a communist plot, etc/. LOL! One can’t take that very seriously. Give him some slack. I think a lot of it probably came from drunkenness and of jealousy of Keesey’s attentions to Cassady. After all On the Road was based on Cassady, and now Keesey was a famous public figure like Kerouac had been a few years before. having a best seller in Cuckoo’s Nest like Kerouac did with On the Road, driving Keesey around the country in a bus and taking LSD together. In Jack’s mind replacing him as the bard who’s muse is Cassady. Anyway that’s my limited opinion. But you’re right in that Kero was not politically savy, i don’t think he even voted. And likely quite paranoid too.

    But anyway, i’m glad you brought it up cuz how could i forget — it was Neil Cassady that was the biggest speed freak of the whole thing called the Beats. He was the master speed freak. And he was the hero who Jack idolized in the classic novel On the Road. He also was a major influence on Burroughs and Ginsberg. He was probably the biggest influence of the whole movement, this according to Ginsberg. And what’s amazing is that he never wrote a word. But he certainly talked a lot of them, ha. And he was also a big influence on the hippies as a part of the Grateful Dead family. Sort of their uncle ;) Did speed influence the culture? Sometimes i think speed is almost like a metaphor for it. But if you want to ignore that and talk about communism instead… whatever.

    -btw, i forgot to mention Lou Reed, who was one of the biggest speed freaks to ever make rock and roll. And also one of its biggest influences. Right up there with Elvis (who also took speed) and The Beatles. Just sayin’. Now of course i have no idea about what Lou may have thought of politics, or communism, or anything like that, but i know that he was a frequenter of Andy Warhol’s factory. And that Warhol was the manager of the Velvet Underground, a humongus influence on R&R … Um, i’m not sure where that leads, maybe to something anarchanarcisstic based on Kerouac, like spitting up blood … on stage, LOL! I wonder if Johnny Rotten, another very influential and drugged rocker charactor, ever read On the Road or listened to the Velvets? Maybe not. But i’m sure he took his share of speed.

    mao by warhol

  53. Eric Kirk
    September 9, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    So, in one sentence or two Suzy, what exactly is your point?

  54. Anonymous
    September 9, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    High Finance :
    “I’m not sure” about legalization of Meth ? Stop being a wuss & take a stand.
    “centers where you can come and use safely administered hard drugs” ? Why don’t you just open suicide centers instead & get rid of the surplus population ?

  55. Name(s)
    September 9, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    What the fuck is a “wuss,” tough guy?

  56. suzy blah blah
    September 9, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    You said, There is no cultural association with meth to speak of

    -suzy refuted that.

  57. Eric Kirk
    September 10, 2012 at 9:07 am

    Well, suzy, it helps if you take the sentence in context. You seem to be saying that because people who contributed to culture took speed that there is a cultural assocation around the drug. There is no meth culture that advocates for itself. There is such a culture for marijuana. Ergo, conventional prohibition tactics are more effective with meth than with marijuana where there is overt civil disobedience.

  58. Just Another Anon
    September 10, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Anything that’s so toxic that it has to be made in the toilet bowl, because any other container would be destroyed by it, probably shouldn’t be put into the human body. Just a thought, cultural context or no. As for legalization–it’s already legal, and it’s called Ritalin. Meth is bad, unless you’ve been “diagnosed” with ADHD and your parents and teachers can’t deal with the fact that you’re a normal, high-energy kid!

    Just thought I’d give you all something else to arg… er, discuss.

  59. suzy blah blah
    September 10, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    -Kerouac didn’t care about politics, civil disobedience, or advocacy groups in the least. Yet he had a HUGE cultural impact. In fact Kerouac’s vision started a cultural revolution. Neil Cassady, archetypal image of the speed-freak and hero of On the Road, played a leading part in that vision. Today’s people, even many drug users, may not even know Cassady’s name, yet the relationship of the masses to the form, one of the largest cultural icons and legends of the 20th century, is indelible. Sorry if that’s too subtle or complex for some but that’s where the real world lives. Not saying its good or bad, just saying its true. And that if you don’t pay attention to that association, all the laws and politics in the world will not help.

  60. Anonymous
    September 10, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    “The phrase ‘coercive apparatus of the state’ was deliberate, and applies to any situation in which the government punishes transgressive behavior. Yes, I do believe that if there were no laws against murder, and consequently no punishment for committing murder, murder rates would be much higher. No, I guess I don’t have the science to prove it”.

    The mass murderer in Switzerland was just sentenced to the maximum 23 years. He can be held longer if it’s determined he would likely kill again.

    Almost all of the industrialized world learned, long ago, that execution and life in prison, are not effective deterrents.

    They learned the same about drug abuse. Nations that legalize it, while providing rehab clinics, have lower abuse-rates.

    But then, nearly all of the industrialized world provides fundamental jobs, health care and shelter for citizens…except the U.S….drunk and armed to the teeth in fear of everything.

  61. September 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Pretty interesting article, from a certainly intriguing source, which was high on Google’s attention-based list when I went looking last night.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-kerouac/comment-page-1/#comment-439078

    The comments, as often, were as evocative over a considerable range.

    I particularly noted the one discussing Kerouac’s perception that he was descended from French aristocracy, which would explain a few things given it has a basis in truth.

    Whatever one may think of this, it’s a signal about how the concept of ‘culture’ has many actual facets, isn’t it?

  62. September 10, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    I think you mean Norway, 1:39. And I think you miss a point here, along with some others.

    Coercivity doesn’t affect those who go past a point of ‘flipping out’, to use the vernacular, yes.

    However, if you have an idea of the spectrum inside each human being at all times, you might form a different opinion of how much violence and other discomfort is averted because individuals have a sense that they won’t be able to freely do it.

    What stops the bully, to begin with children? And then, most of them learn something better for themselves, once they realize that.

    Again, however one might idealize or otherwise politicize, my sense is that Eric is on very solid ground.

  63. suzy blah blah
    September 10, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    -Narrator, JK wrote a book about how he goes to France to research his genealogy called Satori in Paris. He quickly gets bored with and abandons the formal project and instead relates to French people that he meets incidentally. It’s hilarious. If you really want to know what he thinks about aristocracy etc., give it a read.

  64. September 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Ok, I’ve got the first few chapters as a preview on my pseudo-Kindle, and am already dizzy with the glossolalia. Also in some sympathy; let’s see what happens.

    Also, I had my own satori, actually, last night, but will hold on to that. About what country or time I visit in some conversations here ;) Actually, it’s a pretty interesting and depth-attracting thought, possibly a very useful insight for this and other things..

  65. Eric Kirk
    September 10, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    suzy blah blah :

    -Kerouac didn’t care about politics, civil disobedience, or advocacy groups in the least. Yet he had a HUGE cultural impact. In fact Kerouac’s vision started a cultural revolution. Neil Cassady, archetypal image of the speed-freak and hero of On the Road, played a leading part in that vision. Today’s people, even many drug users, may not even know Cassady’s name, yet the relationship of the masses to the form, one of the largest cultural icons and legends of the 20th century, is indelible. Sorry if that’s too subtle or complex for some but that’s where the real world lives. Not saying its good or bad, just saying its true. And that if you don’t pay attention to that association, all the laws and politics in the world will not help.

    He was a good writer. I don’t know about Kerouac’s “cultural revolution.” He certainly cared about politics when he appeared on Firing Line. He’s dead now. Get over it.

  66. Eric Kirk
    September 10, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Narration :

    Pretty interesting article, from a certainly intriguing source, which was high on Google’s attention-based list when I went looking last night.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-kerouac/comment-page-1/#comment-439078

    The comments, as often, were as evocative over a considerable range.

    I particularly noted the one discussing Kerouac’s perception that he was descended from French aristocracy, which would explain a few things given it has a basis in truth.

    Whatever one may think of this, it’s a signal about how the concept of ‘culture’ has many actual facets, isn’t it?

    The possibility of 23 three years in prison will certainly coerce me against any particular behavior. You’re talking a difference in degree, not kind.

  67. September 10, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Eric, sorry, not at all understanding what you’re on here???

    Maybe replying to someone else, on a second thought?

  68. September 10, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    For anyone who turns out to like it, here’s a bit of music I was listening to last night, letting a few thoughts roam around their places about what was being written in here.

  69. September 10, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    Hmm. That didn’t turn out quite as I expected, but perhaps ok.

    The brief roar at first is rain — should be pretty familiar in air-conditioned Humboldt..

  70. suzy blah blah
    September 10, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    -Eric, I feel sorry for you that you don’t know about Kerouac starting a cultural revolution. You should make an attempt to read up on it a little. And btw, he’s not dead as you’d like to pretend, he’ll be with us long after you are buried and forgotten. Ginsberg referred to him as an “immortal”. He lives on forever in libraries, on bookshelves, and on youtube. His immense influence continues. It’s something to be commemorated.

    So if there’s anyone out there among us who doesn’t care for Eric’s advice to “get over him”, but wants instead to celebrate his achievements, here’s an original old time tv show clip that captures the flavor of the era he came out of. A wild eyed beatnik smiling in ecstasy, not being able to disguise the happy enlightened dharmic grin beaming at you as he tells his story of the joy of how he became the great writer he is. And then you get to see him, high as a kite, adjusting his beret and stroking his goatee while playin’ the bongos and reciting hip poetry. Of course i’m sure that it sounds republican and racist to those who don’t get it … whatever.

  71. jr
    September 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Narration: What is the name of this bluegrass group, and where is Oak Grove? Very entertaining.

  72. jr
    September 10, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Bill Morgan has written a good book on Beat era entitled “The Typewriter is Holy: The Complete, Uncensored History of the Beat Generation”. Another book is “Why Kerouac Matters” by John Leland.

  73. September 10, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    jr, glad you enjoy. The first videos center around Sierra Hull, and various walk-ins as people trade around in bands for summer festivals, based on her Highway 111 band, these days touring out of Nashville. She’s 20 now, and the first tune here is just one of many branches these days showing — first class in talent, intent use of abilities, and an opening mind.

    The later set is from Mandolin Orange, of Chapel Hill, NC, who write and arrange their own unusual songs, and could wear the same compliments, also are not much older.

    I thought Oak Grove was in Tennessee, but it’s actually Louisiana. Pretty wide range of roots festivals in those parts, and once in a while people come out here. I think either of these could be pretty interested for a gig in Humboldt, among the trees, and as can fit on a tour.

  74. jr
    September 10, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Suzy: What an amazing video. Thanks for digging it up and posting it.

  75. September 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    By the way, I found this article linked from a comment on the other, and if you can weave among the critcizing (of others; it’s actually an appreciation of Kerouac) I think it has interests to recommend it.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/115694/sec_id/115694

    Back on the music for a moment, I’d intended it to be a link rather than a player, but you can remedy that and see a lot more information.

    Just click red arrow start button, and then you’ll see a YouTube emblem on the bottom row of the video, pretty far to the right. Click on that, and it’ll open the music in a fresh window with everything showing much better.

    Goes for all the videos everyone is putting up, as well.

  76. September 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Yes, suzy’s video sounds so. I’m waiting to put it up when I get home tonight.

  77. Eric Kirk
    September 11, 2012 at 8:54 am

    It is a great video.

    Makes me want to take speed, so I can be part of that culture!

  78. September 11, 2012 at 11:20 am

    suzy, I found the video quite endearing. It and the quotes themselves bring a better picture of the liking for Jack Kerouac’s work, myths or no.

    Maybe will have time to read more of Satori today.

    Thanks for putting both up, and a smile for what seems to be in your spirit.

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