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Second Presidential Debate

Is our embassy on Sesame Street safe?  If not, is it Hilary Clinton’s fault, Barack Obama’s, or Big Bird’s?  And if Paul Ryan does a photo op on Sesame Street, will he take his tie off before he sweeps up Big Bird’s, um, malarkey?  Hey, Mitt, BB looks like he could use a fugging haircut, don’t he?

Discuss. If you can stand it.  And if you want some pre-debate reading, here’s what passes for common sense once you’re beyond our borders, in the land of socialist Tories:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/07/americans-deserve-better-choice-election

  1. October 16, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    There will also be a Presidential candidate debate on October 23. Romney and Obama were invited but declined. Four other Presidential candidates have agreed to participate:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/al-jazeera-to-air-opposition-presidential-debate-amidst-us-black-out

  2. Mitch
    October 16, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Got time before the debate? You can review debate number one with this guy:

  3. Eric Kirk
    October 16, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    I hope Axelrod found a brain between the last debate and tonight, and prepped Obama accordingly.

  4. TelepromptBarry
    October 16, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    They are heroes……they are clowns…..they wear Illuminati crowns.

    GREAT DEBATE ROUND 3 POSTER

  5. Anonymous
    October 16, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Obama can handle himself. He just didn’t know how to handle Romney. Payback time.

  6. Plain Jane
    October 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    If Romney is going to decrease the size of the revenue pie, which he has to do with the working class tax cuts, the rich would still be paying lower taxes while paying the same percentage. Of course, with trillions more in defense spending taken out of that smaller pie, how much is left for everything else – without massive deficit spending, of course.

  7. Plain Jane
    October 16, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    China is so attractive to investors because they have little in the way of environmental regulation and slave wages so how would Romney make the US more attractive to investors than China? hmmm…..

  8. Mitch
    October 16, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Well that was certainly pleasant enough.

  9. Plain Jane
    October 16, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    I predict that Obama won by a large margin.

  10. 06em
    October 16, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    New website timed to go live at same time as debate:

    RomneyTaxPlan.com

  11. Anonymous
    October 16, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Obama was on the attack. It was a lively debate. I think there is hope for the country. Romney will be an effective Prez!.

  12. Plain Jane
    October 16, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Good one, 06em.

  13. Ponder z
    October 16, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Obama was better prepared this time, but Romney still kicked his ass so bad the kids will feel it. Of course the libtards will think BO won, they are bias. The media has BO as the winner, but they have not had enough time to do a real poll. The moderator was a real c’nunt, she was rude and condescending to Romney. And on top of all that its time Big Bird paid back all the tax money he has been given over the 40 years. SS has shown a profit for twenty years now. Why are we paying for it? BO has Billery take the fall for Libya, always a woman’s fault. The Fake movie thing never really caught on. Did you believe it? You could be a libtard too.

  14. tra
    October 16, 2012 at 11:09 pm

    According to the “instant polls” most voters felt that Romney clearly won the first debate, and the follow up polls confirmed that, and according to the instant polls Obama won this one, so don’t be surprised when the follow-up polls show the same.

    Pretty funny to see the Romney True Believers reacting so similarly to the way Obama True Believers reacted in the immediate aftermath of the first debate. Kind of like the political equivalent of stages of grieving there is denial, bargaining, etc. So we hear desperate pleas that (1) Their guy didn’t really lose, (2) That if he did lose it was only on style and not on substance, (3) That if voters think he lost that’s only because it’s what the media told them to think, and, of course (4) It was all the moderator’s fault.

    In other words, quit yer whining and move on. There’s one more debate to go.

  15. WhatNow
    October 16, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    Hilarious, PonderZ.
    What’s your blood alchol level?
    Romney:
    “Government doesn’t create jobs”.
    Romney:
    “As president, I’ll create 12 million new jobs.”
    Romney:
    “I had binders full of women.”

    The moderator moderated this debate unlike Lehrer.
    That makes her a *?
    Add misogynist to to your image of idot-savant without the savant.

    Romney was called on his inability to even tell the truth.

    Enjoy your 90 proof kool-aid, Ponder.
    It certainly assists you blingly fanatic ideologues believe that if things aren’t getting fixed fast enough we should hand it back to the quasi-fascists that want to break it all again and even more so.

  16. Walt
    October 17, 2012 at 6:08 am

    All you need to know about this “race” is contained in Fred’s link (go Fred!). Both candidates dodged or simply didn’t answer questions, both petted (heavily) the NRA, and both are clearly corporate-owned. I don’t hunt deer with AK47s, I don’t drink Red Bull, I don’t get off on watching people fight, I don’t support wars for oil, kidnapping, drones and torture. I’m voting for Jill.

  17. October 17, 2012 at 6:11 am

    I have so little faith in either of these two. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

  18. Ponder z
    October 17, 2012 at 6:13 am

    NowWhat, you also believe the unemployment level is less than 8%. Do you understand the less than 8% is tossed out there under false pretence? Almost like BO has his fingers crossed behind his back, and you wont be smart enough to digest the rest of the facts. As long as you get your kickback you will vote BO. See “47%”

  19. Anonymous
    October 17, 2012 at 6:49 am

    Memo to Walt: Nader voters gave us Bush 2 and Citizens United.

  20. October 17, 2012 at 7:13 am

    All government officials are private contractors:
    http://www.dailypaul.com/258853/bombshell-rod-class-gets-fourth-administrative-ruling-govt-offices-are-vacant-all-govt-officials-are-private-contractors

    “Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”
    Denis Diderot (1713-1784).

    In 1992 George Sr. said: “If the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down the streets and lynched.”

    “The history of the world is the triumph of the heartless over the mindless.”
    Sir Humphrey Appleby

  21. October 17, 2012 at 7:52 am

    Doug Brunell :
    I have so little faith in either of these two. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.

    I’ll remind everyone- some of who might feel the same as Doug and Walt- that Presidents aren’t elected by popular vote. They’re elected by the Electoral College.

    Obama is expected to easily win California. Once he gets 51% of the vote, he gets all the state’s electoral votes. Any other votes are essentially meaningless. A vote for Romney, that won’t earn him one electoral vote in this state.

    The same could probably be said for voting Obama: once he gets his 51%, he has won the state. More votes for him won’t make a bit of difference. Most of you here could get every one you know to vote for Jill Stein, yet Obama will still win all the state’s electoral votes as is the case for Romney voters.

    We need to open up the issues in Presidential debates. Instead of going back and forth over whether we should attack Iran next week or next month, wouldn’t it be nice to have someone asking whether we should be involved in middle eastern affairs at all? Wouldn’t it be nice to hear a candidate say he wants to defend American’s civil rights rather than how much tougher he’ll be on terrorism? That’s not happening with the status quo.

    This is the perfect time for you to feel safe in “wasting your vote”. Only the 51% voting for Obama won’t be wasting it. By voting for the alternatives, you have the potential of making the media finally take notice of a different point of view and there’s plenty of alternatives from all sides of the political spectrum:

    My own favorite, Gary Johnson, the Libertarian Party candidate who believes in you being able to live free.

    Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, for those that like a lot of government but want their civil liberties protected.

    Virgil Goode, the Constitution Party candidate, for those who abhor abortion and Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party (not sure what they’re about).

    Let’s open up the playing field and the issues in Presidential races. There’s no better time to waste your vote than now. If not now, when?

  22. notafan
    October 17, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Obama threw out all his talking points. Non of which are real. You poor sob’s keep talking crap. PJ, keep licking up after your folks. Progs are down in Humboldt and now down goes the prog garbage running the US.

  23. Plain Jane
    October 17, 2012 at 8:25 am

    You really shouldn’t get drunk so early in the morning, Steven (Notafan).

  24. October 17, 2012 at 9:09 am

    Forest Queen says, ““Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.” Denis Diderot (1713-1784).”

    I wondered what happened to all the smart people (present company excluded). It seems they all died in the sixteenth century.

  25. Just Watchin
    October 17, 2012 at 9:12 am

    From a self admitted heavy drug user, sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, PJ.

  26. October 17, 2012 at 9:13 am

    I see Fred still believes all that brainwashing propaganda pumped into him when he was in grammar school. He still believes his vote actually counts for something — besides making him responsible for what the government does in his name. Guess the jokes on him.

  27. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 9:14 am

    Joe and FQ,

    If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
    — Alexander Solzhenitsyn

    An ocean of blood from kings and priests will not solve humanity’s problems and it might make them worse.

  28. October 17, 2012 at 9:21 am

    That’s right, Mitch. There is an answer – Solzhenitsyn had it right. But I’m afraid it’s way too late for the world, including this country. What in America correlates to Kings and Priest? We do have plutocratic oligarchy ruling this country with their High Priest and under-priest legislatures, you know?

  29. Eric Kirk
    October 17, 2012 at 9:22 am

    The problem in the first debate was that Obama sat by and let Romney give his corporate power point presentation without challenging him. Didn’t happen last night, and then when Romney, a victim of his own campaign’s lying hype about what the President and his cabinet said after the attacks, overreached, Candy Crowley reflexively acted like a journalist and fact-checked him. She immediately regretted it and tried to walk it back, but then Obama seized on the opportunity, “Say it louder Candy!” Cheers and applause. It’s the moment that will be played over and over, and the right wing noise machine is making a huge mistake by whining about it over and over again, and whining about Crowley. Apparently they haven’t read George Lakoff.

    Obama was too far in his head the first debate. Not last night! The way he drew Romney in as Romney thought he was in for the kill – it was poetry!

  30. October 17, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Actually Eric, Obama was right where he wanted to be in the first debate. He’s a helluva lot smarter than you give him credit for being. If you think he got sandbagged these past four years by the blocking Republican congress, think again. He’ll show his true colors soon enough once re-elected.

  31. October 17, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Mitch, on occasion you’ve asked me for some positive offerings. Have you had the opportunity to read Deepak Chopra’s book “God – A Story of Revelation”? If not, you might find your answer to what is required to “solving humanity’s problems.” He identifies a class of rare people that are the answer. You might want to find one and see what they have to say. You’re not going to get your answer from likes of a Barack Obama or a Mitt Romney, Gary Johnson or Jill Stein. Or for that matter a Linda Atkins or a Joe Bonino.

  32. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Joe,

    Thanks. I’ve met some people I admire enormously as models. In particular, Maylie Scott was a remarkable woman and I was privileged to be able to observe the way she led her life. It’s helpful to know that such people exist; I’m not sure whether they are fundamentally special or whether they have successfully brought forward the best inside them. Perhaps its the same thing. I’ll look at the Chopra book.

  33. October 17, 2012 at 10:04 am

    I didn’t say they were “special,” Mitch. I said they are “rare.” Rare because they “are” the answer. Chopra says, paraphrasing, these people exist to show their way “as direct experience rather than a matter of hope and faith.” To be such a person is to walk a tenuous path.

  34. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 10:06 am

    I’ll look at the Chopra book. No, you didn’t say they were “special.”

  35. Anon
    October 17, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Today’s Gallup Most Likey Voters Poll is Romney 51% – Obama 42%

  36. Jack Sherman
    October 17, 2012 at 11:26 am

    I chose to watch the presidential debate on Amy Goodman’s democracynow.org, (still available to watch ), where she had Stein and Anderson answer the moderator’s questions immediately after Obama and Romney. Hearing responses that are more relevant t working families exposes the debate-farce and the real reason they’re closed to all but 2 parties.

    I have to agree with Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Everyone has the capacity for great good or harm. It is our institutions: family, education, media, gov, that poorly prepare and inform citizens to make good decisions.

    If America’s neighborhoods were kept informed of the record-foreclosures they suffer each quarter, maybe the vast majority of non-participants would start voting, at least on local issues.

    Can’t blame Nader for 38% turnouts!

  37. Eric Kirk
    October 17, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Anon – That’s 51-45, but even Rasmussen isn’t showing similar numbers and Gallup switched its methodology a week ago with a lot of questions about their “likely voter” model. It’s an outlier. Reuters had Obama ahead, and a slew of swing state polls had Obama with good leads yesterday. And that was before last night’s debate.

  38. WhatNow
    October 17, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    Ponder Z:
    “As long as you get your kickback you will vote BO. See “47%”

    I’m self-employed and paid more in taxes last year than I did under Dumbyah.

    MY “kickback” numbnuts, would be keeping some hideous cretin like Bishop Willard from appointing 1, 2, or 3 Supreme Court Jusitces like Scalia, Alito, THomas, or Roberts to put the last nails in the coffin of this experiment in republicanism of ours.

  39. HUUFC
    October 17, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    What in obummers presentation last night indicates he will do anything different than he has done for his first term? Anything? If reelected he will have the United States over 20 trillion dollars in debt. Any plan to make social security, medicare or medicaid solvent, anything?

  40. Jack Sherman
    October 17, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Please cite your source that SS, Medicare and Medicaid are insolvent, and how Romney’s fortune-making (exporting U.S. jobs and hiding the loot offshore), will reduce U.S. debt?

    The debates are fascinating for avoiding Bain’s “slash-burn-hide” profiteering.

  41. FUUHC
    October 17, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    solvent? nah, the prez be a kenyan taliban socilist. vote for bonino for mor american jobs

  42. Joe Hill
    October 17, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    HUUFC: What Romney was saying, between the lines, is what the Koch Bros (the hand in the puppet) have been saying. . .eliminate unions and start paying lower wages than the Chinese pay and we will bring the jobs home. “Work and pray, live on hay” indeed.

  43. October 17, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    In July 2011, I checked on manta.com website, a database provided by Dunn & Bradstreet, to find that the owner of the United States is an archbishop named Deric R. McCloud of Basicilla Shrine Michigan and 4th n.e. street washington, d.c. Keep in mind that the united states is not a landmass, it is , or was, a corporation. July 2011 I was surprised to see that the first ‘company’ on the list of the then manta.com web page (Government of the United States HQ link) listed 7,666 ‘companies’ with an estimated number of employees of 2,768,886, (2.7 mil), with 3 at this location -the u.s. capitol Washington D.C. Three? at the HQ (head quarters) on Capitol Hill – same place as Congress. Where were these 3? In the Senate chamber? The House of Representatives? If there were only 3 at the HQ, that HQ might be as small as the cloakroom. Today’s search I see that there are now 50,186 ‘companies’ of the u.s government. I’m on dial-up, and lose patience waiting, would be interesting to see the number of employees listed today. Some of you may want to check-out manta.com. Lots of the info. is free, just keep putting different requests in the search box, top left. Today’s search for HQ (head quarters) brought up 5,112. If you can get to the HQ where Congress is, I’d be interested to know if archbishop deric r. mccloud is still listed as owner. Myself, I never register on this website. Also, last year, the date of incorporation of this “Government of the United States” under the heading “Years in Business” was 224. That was odd, because were we not taught that the Constitution created the “Government of the United States,” and therefore could not have existed prior to the ratification of the Constitution? Wikipedia article “United States Constitution reports: “Once the Congress of the Confederation received word of New Hampshire’s ratification, it set a timetable for the start of operations under the new Constitution, and on March 4, 1789, the new [federal] government began operations.
    2011 minus 224 would be 1787.

    Just my thoughts and arbitrary opinions – that something funny is going on.
    Not funny ha ha.

  44. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    FQ,

    1787? First of all, one plus seven is eight, right? That takes care of the first three digits, OK? And then you take the last digit, that seven, and subtract it from the eight, right? And that gets you to one. Proof that the trinity is a lie.

    But there’s more. Look what I get by typing “Forest Queen” into manta.com: http://www.manta.com/mb?search=forest+queen

    The Queen B Salon?! Forest Queen is a royalist!!!

    Just sayin. And no, none of this is funny ha ha.

  45. HUUFC
    October 17, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    I asked first.

  46. October 17, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Mitch,
    My main point was regarding the ‘priest’ discussion of this a.m., and archbishop deric mccloud being listed by Dunn & Bradstreet’s database (last year) as owner of the us gov’t. Would you see if you can ‘search’ for that link instead of Forest Queen?
    1787, 1788, or 1789? that was/is the confusion as far as his story, Dunn & Bradstreet, and
    Wikipedia go. And, yes I can add, thank you. You miss my point. Where in the hell is Narration when you need him?

  47. tra
    October 17, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    “the owner of the United States is an archbishop named Deric R. McCloud of Basicilla Shrine Michigan and 4th n.e. street washington, d.c.”

    But the owner of archbishop Deric R. McCloud is a small grey squirrel living in suburban Minneapolis. So there’s that.

  48. Eric Kirk
    October 17, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Re the Gallup Poll.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/17/1145957/-About-that-Gallup-poll

    Definitely an outlier, given the other tracking polls including the Republican-leaning Rasmussen poll. But check out the regional results. Romney has a huge lead in the south, which only has three swing states.

    These are the other polls.

    Rasmussen (national): Romney +1, was R+2 yesterday
    Rasmussen (Swing states): Obama +3 (50-47)
    Ipsos/Reuters: Obama +3
    YouGov/Economist: Obama +1
    IBD/TIPP: Obama +1
    RAND: Obama +5

    All of this is based on polling prior to the debate.

  49. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    FQ,

    I checked with my good buddy Quickdraw McGoogle, and he found 611,000 hits on google about Archbishop Deric McCloud. You are right — the archbishop is apparently owner and overlord of the United States, because what the Pope says trumps what Presidents say. Quickdraw even checked the internet fraud site “snopes.com,” and there’s nothing about it being a fraud.

    So, I guess you’re right, FQ.

    Archbishop, I hereby bid $5, and I can put together a coalition of the willing that might pay up to $100 for the US, including — and I want to make this clear — acceptance of ALL DEBTS! Hawaii must be included.

    This offer stands only until midnight tonight, but given that the Archbishop represents an omnipotent and omniscient deity, I figure he already knows about it, so time limits are no problem.

  50. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    And who owns the squirrel, you ask? The Flying Spaghetti Monster, sauced be his name.

  51. tra
    October 17, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    Yup. But after that… it’s turtles all the way down.

  52. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    Schism-bringer! It’s blessed, sacred, all-loving tortoises! Tortoises all the way, you turtle-worshipping, evil, godforsaken fools, damn you all to hell!

    Bun! Bun!!!! Bun FYAH!!!!!

  53. October 17, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Hmmm…maybe there was something to that Emperor Norton fellow in San Francisco back in the 1800s?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton

  54. October 17, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    No need to understand.

  55. tra
    October 17, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    The Judean People’s Front completely rejects all tortoise-based cosmologies as pure heresy and asserts the primacy of the Great Turtles!

    You sound like you’re probably one of those scheming bastards from the People’s Front of Judea, with your tortoises and fyah buns. A pox on the lot of you!

  56. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Thelma Norton was always the Emperor’s brains. But it’s a patriarchal world, so she let Ed think he was in charge.

  57. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    Damn you tra! Everyone knows that the people who truly speak for the JPF are the JPFR, the reformed group that has merged with the People’s Front. Bun JPF!! JPF and dem turtles Babylon!!!!!

  58. October 17, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    You guys are good – keeps me smiling. Turtle Island – dare we go there? Well, we’re already there/here, physically. I mean, a CIA website (of all places), has a map of North America – no state lines – all illusion. We’ve (me anyway) just been living a life of dee lusion, based upon lies, upon lies, upon lies, upon lies – told knowingly, as well as un-knowingly.
    Didn’t ya think ye ol ‘smallpox’ vaccine/immunization/shot was supposed to last a lifetime? Or that, getting under our desks (there was a turtle – “duck and cover”) would protect us from a holier-than-art-thou nuclear fire-ball hollocost? Sorry, as usual, I have an impossible time staying on the, what is this one? ‘marionette debate’ waste-of-energy (IMHO) discussion. Can’t we just lay the ax at the root? Did ya link to “All Government Offices Are Vacant” link I posted this morning? Out of the many people I forwarded that link to, (just) one just sent me a, “Never send me this stuff again.” Is it me? Or do some PERSONS have their head so far up the Matrix, that they’ll just ‘will’ not even consider – What if, everything we know is wrong?

  59. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    tra,

    I’m sorry. That was awful of me. Sometimes I get overexcited, and I end up feeling ashamed of myself. Let me try to explain rationally and logically.

    Way back in 1973, I was walking on a hill and an angel of the FSM directed me to a set of algae-covered, platinum plates. The angel would not let me take the plates, but four years later, in 1977, I returned with others in the PFJ. The plates, I was to find, were written in the tortoise’s language, and I was warned not to share the information on them until I had translated them. Fortunately, I found Solomon Spalding. From that monent on, the translation flowed like honey.

    And the plates say it’s tortoises. Not turtles. Many think it’s turtles, but that is because they’ve been misled. The TRUE turtles are tortoises.

    I hope this clarifies things for you. Again, my apologies for my earlier outburst. I will say ten bun fyahs before bed tonight.

    (Oh, PS to FQ: there’s an untranslated, sealed segment of the second Platinum Plate, which I’ve named Urkel. I’m translating Urkel right now, and it can have good things to say about you or bad things. Which do you prefer? Think about it, FQ.)

  60. tra
    October 17, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    C’mon, who do you think you’re fooling? We all know JPFR is just a stalking horse for those PFJ dead-enders, a few tortoise-coddling traitors rightfully purged from the JPF, and a bunch of shadowy crypto-Romans types. And I’ll tell you one thing, I’ll take a Babylonian over a Roman any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Long live the JPF and all praises to the sauce and the noodles and the most holy meatballs, hallowed upon a throne of endless turtles, amen.

  61. October 17, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Emperor, Emperor. . . are we finally going to tell the Emperor he’s naked?

    And/or, can we discuss/share why the ‘Eel’ River isn’t the ‘Eel’ River? Lies, ALL lies.

  62. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Incorrigible. Pearls before swine. The only way to deal with the JPF cryptofascists is to blot them out in holy sauce. Long live the PFJ and all praises to the sauce, and the noodles, and the MOST high holy meatballs, hallowed upon a throne of endless tortoises — tortoises at the beginning AYEZ, tortoises through the middle AYEZ, and tortoises all the way down, AYEZ. Tortoises. Amen.

  63. October 17, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Mitch,
    I don’t want any thing to do with ‘Urkel,’ thanks just the same. Platinum and ‘Urkel’ – I see no connection. – Ahh, it’s the good ol vowel-before-two-syllables stymie.

  64. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Norton? Naked? Dumpy old Norton? Obese, bald, short Norton? Shudder.

  65. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    “I’ll believe in any God, if he’ll believe in me.” — from Leonard Bernstein’s Mass

    “I’ll believe in Forest Queen, when she believes in me.” — from Urkel (the sealed part of Urkel)

  66. WhatNow
    October 17, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Looks like were headed to the realm of the 5th dimension blood drinking shape-shifting reptilian satan worhippers’idiocy real quick.
    Tragic.

  67. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Nah, whatnow. Romney won’t win.

  68. tra
    October 17, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Asserting that the FSM relies upon the support of tortoises and their ilk is akin to casting a rose petal upon a toiletpaper shrine constructed in depths of a sanitarium outhouse and then declaring it a temple of roses!

    Clearly you have been led astray by the shadowy forces of the accursed Invisible Pink Unicorn, who has sent a tortoise-pandering minion in the guise of an angel to cloud your mind with these delusions and confuse you with false prophecies based on counterfeit platinum plates.

    The algae, the fact that the plates were written in tortoisese and especially the oh-so-convenient role of Solomon Spalding — any of these should have been a dead giveaway that this was nothing but a cheap conjuring trick emanating from the diabolical mind of the IPU, who as we all know, consorts with tortoises — tortoises! — in the most unsavory ways when the moon is full and the wind is from the east.

  69. October 17, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Mitch,
    C’mon now, you named the platinum plate, won’t you re-name it? Something that sounds better than Yerk ill? It’s like ‘soy milk’ – leaves a bad taste. Probably because there is no ‘soy’ titty.

  70. October 17, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    Mitch,
    Never mind the re-name – I’m in complete agreement with tra’s eloquent explanation.
    “Counterfeit platinum plates,” just as I thought! No wonder you couldn’t come up with a better label/name. Yet more fiction to shed.

  71. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    You’d probably prefer it be called something ridiculous, like Ummim or Thurim. But those are homophobic names, FQ. Urkel it is. Sweet kid.

  72. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Forget I said that, FQ. I can see you’re a schismatic now. May the FSM have mercy, and purify you with bun fyah from the Emperor Norton.

  73. Mitch
    October 17, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    tra,

    If the FSM rests on turtles, it is a dried shit-stick! Meditate on that, JPF scum!

  74. October 17, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Jill Stein — Inarticulate at best. I’m sure her heart is in the right place, however.

    Here’s a quote I tend to like. “… the capitalist class knows all too well that officials, whether they belong to the Right or to the Left, can be bought. Or they are of no consequence to their pledge. Whereas strong and determined economic methods strike the capitalists in their most vulnerable spot — their material interests. That is the reason they dread the organized economic power of the workers. That is why they see in the general strike their deadly foe.” — Emma Goldman.

    That was written in May of 1936. It was easily grasped then. It hasn’t changed now. Politicans of either side can be and are bought on a regular basis. Capitalists may not like Obama, but they have no reason to fear him. He hasn’t really been an enemy. Now, some reactionary conservative Republicans really seem to fear him, but I believe it has less to do with his economic stance and more to do with the color of his skin and his name. Of course, they can’t openly say that without ridicule most of the time, but if you look at the attacks, one thing that is very apparent is that the economy has far less to do with it than most people think.

    That is why I have little faith in them. That is why I see them as the same shit in different piles. Cry foul over one candidate or the other all you want, but neither is really for the vast majority of the American people. One of them, however, is far better at hiding that.

  75. Just Watchin
    October 18, 2012 at 5:30 am

    When Forest Queen starts sounding like Forest Gump, it’s time to move on.

  76. October 18, 2012 at 8:25 am

    Im still waiting to hear how these guys view the North West Forest Plan and if there will be any attempt to change the way it is being implemented. In essence, the NWFP has not been implemented at all. If it was, it would mean significant jobs in both government and private payrolls. They both talk about resources and green jobs, yet no mention of this crucial element of the economy.

  77. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 8:29 am

    bolithio,

    A write-up of the plan you describe would be great for the Herald. If you send one in via Quick Notes or my email account — not the herald’s or I wouldn’t see it for a week or more — I’d be happy to put it up for discussion on the front page, after offering opponents an opportunity to respond.

  78. October 18, 2012 at 8:42 am

    Log baby log.

  79. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Hey, let both sides present their “facts.”

  80. October 18, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Manage, Heraldo, manage. That cynicism is a huge reason the NWFP has failed, at least in Six Rivers.

    Mitch, Im not sure I have time for that assignment…

  81. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 9:21 am

    bolithio,

    Isn’t “your side” the one with the big payrolls? I’m not saying that *you* should have time to inform the public, but do you seriously think the timber industry has fewer resources than the environmental activists? If you don’t think your story is getting told, maybe you should look in the mirror.

  82. October 18, 2012 at 9:54 am

    OK Mitch, well said. You underscore the major problem. In politics we get two sides to a story. Thats it.

    And in this case, as the two sides maintain their sustainable battle, the entropy of the forest resource continues. The ‘big payrolls’ continue their lowest common denominator approach to investment and growth. On the other hand, environmentalists continue to exploit the system with never ending lawsuits (this has essentially shut down 90% of production on six rivers).

    Just like when Obama took office, the republicans have done everything they can to prevent the policies from being implemented. We will never know how beneficial his plan would have been because he was unable to fully carry it out.

    Likewise, the NWFP has been more or less monkey wrenched by groups like EPIC. As result, our complex forests are suffering. Fire threats are high and increasing. The risk of catastrophic stand replacing fires is the highest in recorded history – including the special places we are trying to protect! Our oak woodlands, prairie habitats and aspen environments are going extinct.

    I and most of the people I work with, would simply want to the see the plan enacted as proposed by the Clinton team in 1994. Yet when we state this, we get accused of bullshit like “log it all cowboys!” Again the two sides. Your either for all regulation or none. There’s no compromise in American Politics!! [puke]

  83. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 10:08 am

    I’m somewhat sympathetic, bolithio, but unfortunately I don’t trust anyone’s arguments these days on issues like logging. That’s why I’d welcome hearing from a large set of perspectives, starting, alas, with two.

    Lots of forest has been clearcut and anyone with an airplane or access to google can see for themselves how the industry has left land bare behind vanity strips alongside highways.

    Maybe in some magical implementation of some wonderful academically-certified plan, the forests will be healthy again, Bambi will run free, and every logger who’s ever lived will be comfortably employed and will be able to pass their job on to one of their children.

    But I’m more inclined to think that you, bolithio, are being used as a patsy by people who really couldn’t give a shit about either the environment or labor. I’d love to be convinced I’m wrong on that. But until such time, I’m happy that activists are able to throw lawyers at the extraction mechanism to jam it, and I’d remind you that it’s the COURTS that say certain things cannot proceed, not activists.

    You’re probably right that California logging rules are better than those in Bolivia (to pull a country name from a hat). But the task is to get Bolivia’s rules up to those of civilized operations, not to dumb ours down until they can compete with those who are destroying forests outside the US (on behalf of “US” multinational corporations, of course).

  84. October 18, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Mitch, you would love to be convinced but you don’t trust anyone’s arguments. Good luck with that! Oh and thanks for giving me the befit of the doubt. I didn’t realize I was just a patsy tool in your eyes. What a disappointing exchange!

  85. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Sorry you’re disappointed, bolithio. No, I don’t trust the arguments I hear these days, because there are really no neutral parties out there vetting them for truth.

    Locally, am I supposed to listen to the sages at the TS? The reviewers at NCJ? The blowdries on the teevee or the blowhards on the radio? Should I just listen to whatever mouthpiece Mr. Arkley has hired for the month, because he or she comes with professional packaging?

    That means that the best I can do is seek to have people with different perspectives present their facts for responses from one another. That way, I can listen to all sides and attempt to reach my own conclusion. Sadly, you’re not sure you have time. Oh, well. That’s “disappointing,” if not an exchange.

    Yes, I think people working for an industry (pot comes to mind, but logging will do) tend to push the opinions of the industry bigwigs. I don’t doubt your sincerity, but I do doubt that you are right. I’m happy to give you the benefit of the doubt, but that doesn’t mean trusting you or siding with you — it means listening to you.

  86. October 18, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Mitch, speaking as someone who once was professionally involved in such things, bolithio comes across very consistently as someone particularly in touch with reality, boots on ground, in the most important sense: how the forests and their human communities live: the full ecology.

    If you continuously create logjams, in the sense of perfection-seeking lawsuits and other overly intent activism, you prevent the system from ever achieving the strength of a balance. You’ve raised the attention level, the activation level, too high, and nothing can function as it might.

    On the other hand, if you accept a reasonably judged next plan, let it operate, you have the chance to observe how it’s working and then make each next modification in it. This is a very natural mechanism, and I would venture to say it works as well as a principle with human persons as it does in the array of life of a forest.

    In fact, there’s been work earning some respect which treats the forest and human ecologies together, I think often under a name that’s a little unfortunate for the general population to hear, panarchy. And I find that word actually has a European revolutionary history, just the thing for overeager activism — not, of course.

    Here’s Wikipedia on the recent development and meaning of the term:

    “Lance Gunderson and C. S. Holling, in their book Panarchy: Understanding Transformations in Systems of Humans and Nature also simultaneously coined the term, saying:

    “The term [panarchy] was coined as an antithesis to the word hierarchy (literally, sacred rules). Our view is that panarchy is a framework of nature’s rules, hinted at by the name of the Greek god of nature, Pan.””

    Here’s a reference from an aptly named group who’s been interested in just the sort of thing I think bolithio speaks towards:

    http://www.resalliance.org/index.php/panarchy

    You’ll see in the diagram that there’s a place and an understanding for a path of revolution in it, Mitch — but that the working system doesn’t waste its resources or time always holding in that state, hoping to nail down ‘those others’ and achieve a static perfection.

    I don’t think static perfections exist, in fact, and here I am even more on the side bolithio shows such instincts for, to work and a bit gently with a complex thing you come to learn and respect. Even the variations of persons involved in their myriad ways with it.

    /soapbox

  87. October 18, 2012 at 11:23 am

    One more quote, to suggest how apropos to the Humboldt situation the ideas may be:

    “Panarchy is the structure in which systems, including those of nature (e.g., forests) and of humans (e.g., capitalism), as well as combined human-natural systems (e.g., institutions that govern natural resource use such as the Forest Service), are interlinked in continual adaptive cycles of growth, accumulation, restructuring, and renewal.”

  88. Mitch
    October 18, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Narration,

    I can’t disagree with a thing you’ve written, and I thank you for writing it. I’m glad you’re here, whoever you are, and I mostly love everything you say. However, context is important, and you’ve left it out this time.

    This is a blog, not a legislature or court. It’s not going to make any decisions; it has no military, no police powers, and runs no bureaucracy. It’s a place for people to hear about events and discuss things in various ways. If someone just expects to be believed, fine, but it’s not going to happen. They need to present their facts, allow others to respond, and hope that the truth emerges in a way that members of whatever audience might exist can reach their own conclusions.

    That’s not the reality, of course. The reality is nasty name calling, rhetoric, arguments to emotion and to “what everyone knows,” and the not-so-occasional loopy comment from someone who’s not entirely present. Unfortunately, that’s us in all our glory. Bolithio is consistently one of the blog’s participants who comes down more on the “offer your facts” side than the nasty screaming one. That’s why I’d be delighted to see him as a participant in a discussion here.

    After that discussion, I might even conclude that he’s correct. But that conclusion would have to wait for after an in-depth discussion complete with advocates of different perspectives; it doesn’t just come because one person sounds reasonable. Not everyone, certainly not me, has paid all that much attention to the wide variety of logger/enviro conflicts to have settled opinions on every matter related to the forests.

  89. tra
    October 18, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    I’d like to see that discussion. I hope Bolithio finds the time to write a guest post, as Mitch has invited him to do, elaborating on the points he raised in his comments at 8:25 (#77) and 9:54 (#83).

    I’d also be interesting in hearing other views, and given that Bolithio has stated that the Northwest Forest Plan has been “monkeywrenched” by EPIC, it seems only fair to offer EPIC a chance to respond.

  90. October 18, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Mitch, thanks, and I do understand the context you’re speaking of — it’s much in my thinking always, trying to discover best ways to weave in these forums from an old home, which please me greatly.

    Identity? Well, probably a pretty composite personality here, that’s what comes, isn’t it, on the trail. I try to be pretty open about enough of it; that’s building understanding as well as indulgence I really like to have.

    I’ve read your comment several times this afternoon, letting its messages penetrate. I guess I think most of what we best deal with is not very straightforward, starting with the idea of any one person being correct, compared to very valued in their insights.

    I guess I think we can handle those multiple insights, and that we have to learn to, as this will do a lot better with the challenges we face.

    It isn’t where I get this, but it is a very interesting and in a way innocent example, how Franklin Roosevelt kept things going for a decade and a half by hiring people who could generate such a number of individual, small-sized, not closely linked programs. I’ll have to dig up the fascinating account of it by a sixties sociologist, which was quite a fascinating read a couple of years ago in the depths of our dive. I have an image for the ringleader of much of it which would certainly anchor a great film or a novel in the sense of Raymond Chandler, a real and tricky swashbuckler, who apparently had all the appearance of it too, and used it himself to get very real and much improving things to get done.

    Because in those days, powers didn’t mind starving the schoolteachers of Chicago, for one example, by cutting off their salaries. They fainted in the aisles, literally, to keep the schools for children operating. I don’t remember what was done to pull things together for them, but it was done, by FDR’s people, and was effective. And then they moved on. As you probably know, artists were among the very many included in these programs to create jobs when the monied absolutely would not budge, and achieved such things as the construction and all the furnishings of Timberline Lodge, which is still a great place like Benbow operating, and was the external scenery for Jack Nicholson in the film of The Shining, so you can see what a great place it was and I presume still is. Very comfortable, built of human sight and hands..

  91. October 18, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Looking back, hat last sentence wants to finish something like, “built of human sight and hands, rough-hewn, wood everywhere to touch, and please the eye…”

  92. Mitch
    October 21, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Joe Blow,

    I’ve gone through the first half of the Choprah book on God: A Story of Revelation. Thanks for the suggestion. I don’t know if we find much similar in our readings of the book and, unless each chapter is about one of the people you call “rare,” I don’t see how the book deals with rare people.

    To whatever extent Choprah is describing God, I am no atheist, not even an agnostic. I totally feel the presence of the God Choprah describes, but to me it has nothing whatsoever to do with the pinched representations we are offered by any institutions. I’m afraid it’s not even — to me — something to worship, and I’ve never found it offering me any advice. If you find it does, and I mean this with sincerity, I think you’re fortunate.

  93. October 22, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Well, good for you.

    You ever meet people like he’s defining there, those I say are “rare”?

    Can you see the real issue that is dividing people as he explains in his observations?

  94. Mitch
    October 22, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    The closest I’ve come, Joe, is Maylie Scott.

    I’ve met many people who probably think of themselves as “in the Rumi mold,” but I’ve never found any of them convincing, at least not for the last thirty years. I spent some time in a Gurdjieff group when I was much younger, and I still don’t know if it was a cult or not. I’m glad I had the experience, and it was pretty formative for me even though I was in my twenties. I think the group’s leaders were very capable actors, but these days I don’t think they were touched by divinity any more than I think I am.

    I can’t imagine myself wanting to spend time with anyone like Paul; actually, very much the opposite.

    No, I don’t see any connection between Choprah’s observations (the ones I’ve read so far) and what you call “the real issue that is dividing people.” I find reading people like Karen Armstrong much more interesting, though this isn’t nearly as bad as I’d expected given my caricature of Deepak Choprah.

  95. October 23, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Mitch, I probably should have been a bit more specific. Your earlier experience with Gurdjieff group explains why you are more open-minded than most. Chopra identifies the division when he defines two classes of people in the very first sentence in his Prologue: “Like a car with two steering wheels, the world has been guided by two forces, the spiritual and the secular, that fight for control. The secular has seized the advantage today, but for many centuries the power lay with spirituality.” Notice he does not say religion. I broke that down some years ago as simply “thinkers” and “believers,” and in some ways “male” and “female.” He goes on to say, “I became fascinated by the perplexing situation that visionaries find themselves thrust into. Very few asked for this power to affect other people.” Further along he says, “In a world that made a spectacle of feeding martyrs to lions, crucifying saints as enemies of the state, and jealously guarding old religions, the voice of God could by pronouncing a death sentence.” To such people I hope you realize there are many kinds of deaths?

    He then identifies these “rare” people, “’God’ is an empty term except as it finds expression through the revelations of all the saints, prophets, and mystics of history. They exist to plant the seed of spirituality as direct experience rather than a matter of hope and faith.” “Direct experience” is not a verbalized way, by writings and oratory. These people become their “expressions” of God – sometimes verbally as an assist. Most people only know “God” in their minds through “hope” and “faith.” It never becomes practical and real or experienced beyond a thought or a belief as a secular expression.

    So, there is your answer to today’s problems, that is if you know where to look.

    By the way, I’ve spent 60 years looking for one of these “rare” people. To date I have yet to find one.

  96. Mitch
    October 23, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    Joe,

    I wish you the best on your search. I may reply at greater length after giving this more thought, but I don’t really think the secular/spiritual divide is any sort of driving force, and from my own life experience I can say that increased scientific understanding has always increased my awe of the creation.

    I think the divide is between arrogance and humility, and those on opposite sides of the secular/spiritual divide each tag the other side with arrogance. In my experience, the truly remarkable scientists I’ve been lucky enough to meet are extremely humble; the same with the truly remarkable people who would be called spiritual. When you realize how big the universe is — whether from the scientific side or the side of spirituality — I think it helps you to understand humility.

  97. October 24, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    You missed the point Chopra is making Mitch. Sorry. I thought it would help you in your quest for solutions. Are you sure you’re not confusing “secular” with “scientific”?

    You did help me understand your thinking though. I might point out that true humility is NOT about getting down to the level of wallering in the dregs of society to become like them, but to lift them up to the level of equality. True humility is in the offering.

    I wonder if you know what it means for mankind when there are no apparent “rare” people to be found?

  98. Mitch
    October 24, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    I’ve only read through Julian so far. It wouldn’t come as a shock if I’m missing the point. When I think of humility, though, I don’t think of descending to the dregs or of lifting others; I think of recognizing limitations. I think with the exception of God (whatever that means) we are all limited in our knowledge, our ability to understand, and pretty much everything else.

    In my experience, and I make no claims about anyone else, many people who voice God’s opinions are just voicing their own opinions and pretending to know those of God. That to me is the opposite of humility. (Of course, if they do know God’s opinions, and I’m missing them, I’m just blind.)

  99. Plain Jane
    October 24, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    A lot of people are going to be very unhappy if it turns out Muhammad brought us the latest word of god (a bit harsher than what Moses relayed). I can imagine Mr. God ranting to Mrs. God, “Your hippie son’s rebellion against parental authority, confusing people by telling them I changed my mind, or was wrong about anything has to be NIPPED IN THE BUD! Now they’ll see how harsh my tests of their faith will be, but for the faithful….. Muhammad!”

  100. Mitch
    October 24, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    PJ,

    Are you forgetting about Joseph Smith and the (other) sci-fi author who brought the world Scientology? Muhammed’s old hat compared to either of them.

  101. October 24, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Is this not an argument for telling people to keep to themselves. How can someone with “limitations” dare offer anything, god forbid “truth,” to another limited individual? Unfortunately, that argument only works from a secular point of view. The people Chopra is writing about, “rare” spiritual people, certainly didn’t hold back even when it meant their lives. But then, I guess you could say, from a spiritual point of view they possessed NO limitations. Their humility was expressed in their offering of themselves when they were under no obligation, as seeds of spirituality, to those with great limitations.

    It’s been my experience too, “people who voice God’s opinions are just voicing their own opinions and pretending to know those of God.” Chopra wasn’t talking about these people. In fact, to understand what he’s talking about you have to go with his definitions. In the Prologue he defines “secular” and “spiritual.” I quote: “They exist to plant the seed of spirituality as direct experience (spiritual) rather than a matter of hope and faith (secular).” I’m confident you’ll connect the dots.

  102. October 24, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Who is to say he didn’t PJ? It works for a third of the world’s population.

    Where do you get this Mr. and Mrs. God? Remember, there’s a difference between religion and spirituality.

  103. October 24, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    If I may suggest the book “Digital Dharma” by Steven Vedro. It’s one of those books that you can’t put down. As it says on the front: “It’s a juicy read . . . and needed.”
    A User’s Guide to Expanding Consciousness in the Infosphere.

    As well, this Saturday there is a global event that will be streamed:

    http://www.activistpost.com/2012/10/huge-david-icke-event-will-be-streamed.html

  104. Plain Jane
    October 24, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    It was all in humor, Joe.

    I didn’t consider any of the newer cults, Mitch. Religious myths should be rooted in ancient history and impossible to check. The entire premise of the Mormon religion has been scientifically proven to be a con.

  105. October 24, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    I know PJ, but there’s a certain truth to it when you get beyond religion and its dogma. Christians claim God as there own and all others as false Gods. Chopra is showing how man’s understanding of God is evolving.

  106. Plain Jane
    October 25, 2012 at 8:08 am

    Most Christians don’t even know that Allah is just a different name for the god that they and Jewish people worship or understand that their New Testament is a huge departure from the Old Testament, the Torah and the Quran as far man’s interpretations of gods rules. There is more similarity between the Old Testament and the Quran as far as what their god demands as proof of their devotion such as the rightful place of women in the world, making war on people who believe differently, blasphemy, slavery, etc. than either of them share with the New Testament. There are monstrous extremists in all religions; those who would kill over an insult to their prophet (Moses, Jesus or Muhammad), a disobedient wife or child, a doctor who performs legal abortions, or to advance their religion in the world by force. We have government leaders spewing superstitious nonsense about “god’s will” to justify what they want to do, just like they do in Iran. Just the other day Coulter repeated her claim that the US should bomb Muslims countries and kill any who won’t convert to Christianity. Demonizing delusions that are different than your delusions has been going on for thousands of years, justifying the murder of billions of people. Religion is a mental illness that may very well destroy humanity and a large percentage of life on earth.

  107. Mitch
    October 25, 2012 at 8:21 am

    No need to invoke obvious nutcase Coulter. When George W Bush, occupant of the Oval Office, announced a “crusade,” that translated to the Arab world exactly the way “jihad” translates to mainstream America.

    But Bush didn’t just announce a “crusade,” he actually used the world’s strongest military to invade an Arab country that had not attacked the United States, while ignoring countries that had hosted terrorists that attacked the US. That is what people who think they know God’s will do to one another. That’s why they frighten me.

  108. October 25, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Goes back to the key, basic issue Chopra is writing about. “Believers” no matter what religion they profess they all think the same way. It’s not about proven facts, truth or reality, it’s only about what these wannabe little gods know in their minds. Compare what they say or teach to what kind of people they actually are and you have your answer – they’re all frauds. When these would-be gods spout lies and you call them on it, you impugn their integrity because you attack their sacred beliefs. “Believers” know – believe they are superior to people that think. That’s why Romney, the would be leader of the Believers, looks down on Obama. Don’t conflate or confuse Chopra’s definition of “spiritual” people with “Believers.” Most “Believers” are totally devoid of any spirituality. The life’s experiences of the “rare” people Chopra writes about exemplify a legitimate connection to the Divine. In other words the Truth is defined by what kind of people they were. So, if you were wondering how I knew what kind of people to look for when I was just a kid, Mitch, there’s your answer. What caught my attention with Chopra, is that he actually “gets it.”

    By the way, Bush’s Crusade was supposed to convert who to what?

  109. Mitch
    October 25, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Joe,

    What you are describing is essentially the reason I keep citing Maylie Scott as the closest I’ve ever witnessed to your “rare” person. She lived her life as a demonstration of her faith. One of the most surprising and delightful things about Maylie, to me, was that although she was a Buddhist priest and her sister was a leader in a Christian faith community, they got along perfectly as far as I could tell.

    I’ve now read through the “Bruno” section of Chopra’s book. The Church: same as it ever was.

  110. October 25, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    Mitch: ” She lived her life as a demonstration of her faith.” Which is more than most. Perhaps it’s a product of her faith. I’d like to have met her. I’m not sure, however, that is what Chopra is describing. It is surprising how the more enlightened one becomes the more tolerant they are of others.

  111. Mitch
    October 25, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Joe,

    (Responding to your comment on another thread.)

    The entire Christian idea of Satan is bewildering to me. I understand that he represents God’s adversary, but I’ve never understood the idea that either an omniscient omnipotent deity or a less personal idea of “all that is” could have an adversary that accounts for evil in the world.

    I’m more comfortable with the less personal terminology of Buddhism, and I’ve heard the terms “big mind” and “little mind,” or “big heart-mind” and “little heart-mind” and interpret them as corresponding to recognizing oneself as part of the universe versus identifying with one’s ego. But I don’t think the Christian conception of Satan corresponds to ego or self-interest, and it strikes me as an inherently contradictory add-on to the whole idea of an omniscient and omnipotent deity, forced into the mythology by a need to explain evil. The mythology that represents both God and Satan as of human appearance strikes me as highly problematic, just inviting a division of people into God’s people and Satan’s.

    I’m Jewish and grew up in a neighborhood filled with holocaust survivors. I find it very hard to imagine a benevolent personal deity, or even a benevolent universe. I can believe in benevolent individuals, and in benevolent components of a personality, but I’m not able to accept Julian’s “all will be well and all will be well” even though I long to accept it.

    As for myself, I doubt I’m very different from most people and I find myself perfectly capable of horrifying behavior not just in theory but in practice, so I wouldn’t be very anxious to support my own behavior with a belief that I was carrying out God’s will, at least not more so than the next schmoe.

    I passed the chapter on the Bal Shem Tov, and it was a treat. I’ve loved Elie Wiesel’s hasidic tales, and the idea that the world is a result of broken vessels, and needs humankind’s consciousness to reassemble is very appealing, and provides me with a more comforting idea of evil — that it is an accidental and all too real mess, not a result of some hypothetical adversary.

  112. Plain Jane
    October 25, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    It is my understanding that the idea of Satan was demonizing of the “goddess consort,” Mitch, as part of Christianity’s cooptation of pagan gods. The crescent moon and the horns of a bull were his symbols. The snake was a pagan symbol of rebirth and wisdom (still used in the physician’s Caduceus) which was turned into another symbol of Satan by Christians. The “snakes” that St. Patrick drove out of Ireland were pagans.

  113. suzy blah blah
    October 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    -you’re forgetting the idea of free will Mitch If God gave man free will (metaphor) then man has the choice to do the atrocious. If God stops it, well then it isn’t free will.

  114. Plain Jane
    October 26, 2012 at 7:32 am

    GOP’s Benghazi Smoking Gun Goes Up In Smoke: “Reuters reported Wednesday that on September 11—the day of the attack—a State Department email with the subject header “Ansar al-Sharia Claims Responsibility for Benghazi Attack” was sent to the White House. The message stated that “Embassy Tripoli reports the group claimed responsibility on Facebook and Twitter and has called for an attack on Embassy Tripoli.” Case closed, conservatives said: The White House had engaged in a cover-up.”

    Except…

    “There’s only one problem—well, actually, there are many, but one big one: The email appears to have been incorrect. Ansar al-Sharia in Benghazi, the group suspected of attacking the consulate, never claimed responsibility for the assault. In fact, according to Aaron Zelin, a fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy who monitors jihadist activity online, Ansar al-Sharia in Benghazi didn’t post about the attack on its Facebook or Twitter page until September 12, the day after the attack. They expressed their approval of the incident, but they didn’t take credit; they did imply members of the group might have been involved, according to Zelin, stating, “Katibat Ansar al-Sharia [in Benghazi] as a military did not participate formally/officially and not by direct orders.” The statement also justifies the attack by implicitly alluding to the anti-Islam video linked to unrest in other parts of the Middle East, saying, “We commend the Libyan Muslim people in Benghazi [that were] against the attack on the [Muslim] Prophet [Muhammad].”

    “Even if the State Department email had been accurate, conservatives pounced on it eagerly without underlying corroboration, thereby providing a pretty good example of how complicated intelligence analysis can be and why it’s a bad idea to simply jump on a piece of information that fits your preconceived biases. The email was just one piece of information gathered in the aftermath of the attack. While the White House’s initial explanation that the attack had begun as a protest turned out to be wrong, the email itself doesn’t bear on two of the major remaining questions: what role the video played and whether the attack was planned or spontaneous. “

  115. Mitch
    October 26, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Joe,

    Here are the words of her last “dharma talk.” As with most words, they’re more powerful when attached to the voice, but she still comes through:

    http://www.arcatazengroup.org/maylie.php#dharma

  116. October 26, 2012 at 11:15 am

    First I’d like to say, thank you for the introduction to Maylie Scott. As I thought about what she said in her last talk on April 15, 2001, I was reminded of my transition at that time. When considering your comment about Satan I thought about these questions she raises in her talk:

    “So what do we do in this world that we have beliefs about, but essentially we don’t know.  And sometimes there is a whiteout, sometimes there is a blackout, and then what?  It is said that the Middle Way has no point of reference, so how do we find our grounding in a place where there is no point of reference?”

    “…so how do we find our grounding in a place where there is no point of reference?” Chopra gives us a clue: “The saints and sages of the past were Einsteins of consciousness, explorers into the nature of reality. They were testing the soul hypothesis.” To know “reality” is to know one of these people today.

    To understand about Satan as defined in the Bible would require, at least from my point of view, taking the time necessary to sit down face to face and come together on a couple of fundamental understandings regarding the purpose of the Bible. Then correlate that understanding with what we know about the “observer effect” and how it relates to Quantum Reality. A good base point would be Chopra’s conclusion regarding “God” and consciousness. He has an explanation of the “observer effect” only he calls it “soul hypothesis.” Like our understanding of “God” is evolving, Mitch, so is our understanding of “Satan the Devil.” — I’m still thinking about your comment.

  117. Mitch
    October 26, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    My pleasure, Joe, though re-reading that talk myself left me a bit weepy.

    I’d be happy to sit down face to face, but I’m not sure how that can happen given your anonymity.

    I’ve finished the Chopra book and I found it valuable, so thank you again. I’d had a very incorrect impression of Chopra — I’d imagined him to be a bit like the “Deep Thoughts” character from twenty or thirty year old Saturday Night Live tv shows.

    I’m not comfortable with the conclusion he and others seem to come to that modern quantum physics justifies mysticism, but I don’t think mysticism needs any justification, so that’s not much of a hindrance to my at least trying to hear the rest of what Chopra is saying. I don’t find science to be in conflict with mysticism at all — to me they are different ways of understanding what we perceive.

    It doesn’t matter to me whether modern physics says matter is energy or not, or whether physics is interested in observer effects. Like everyone, I’ve had moments when I feel great joy or sorrow, and when I imagine those feelings multiplied by all the conscious beings on Earth or in the universe I simply cannot accept that such feelings do not have enormous power simply because they appear to come from inside us. There are different levels of description suitable to different ways of understanding.

    I’ll probably give Chopra’s book a second read before long.

  118. Plain Jane
    October 26, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Have you read The Dancing Wu Li Masters, by Gary Zukav, Mitch?

  119. Mitch
    October 27, 2012 at 7:04 am

    PJ,

    I can’t recall if I’ve read it or just skimmed it or just read a review. Either way, my impression of it was highly unfavorable.

    I’ve read a fair amount of stuff trying to connect the “new physics” with mysticism, it usually makes me laugh and it always leaves me cold. That includes books by extremely well-respected practicing physicists who try to explain consciousness and free will via reference to quantum uncertainty effects. I suppose it could be my own ignorance combined with hyperactive BS detectors.

  120. Plain Jane
    October 27, 2012 at 8:49 am

    I read it years ago and found his layman’s level essays on quantum physics fascinating in the same way as Lives of a Cell or pondering the wonder of the chain of our DNA going back millions of years to the beginning of life on earth, Mitch.

  121. Mitch
    October 27, 2012 at 8:59 am

    PJ,

    I’m a complete layman when it comes to quantum physics, but I’ve never felt that any of the layperson’s essays on quantum physics really help anyone to understand the concepts, and I’ve felt like many of them do the field violence. The whole idea of connecting Heisenberg uncertainty to free will has always felt to me like carnival hucksterism, and when I read a book on consciousness by Roger Penrose it read to me like: “I know a lot about this, and this, and this,” — now here’s something I don’t know shit about, but I’m very smart and have jargon you don’t — “and I know a lot about this and this and this.”

    Feynmann’s lectures on science are fantastic, and his explanations of QED have always struck me as far more honest: “This is the way the world seems to work. You don’t understand it: I don’t understand it. You don’t like it? Too bad. I may not like it either, but this is what the experiments keep showing. Amazing, huh?”

  122. Plain Jane
    October 27, 2012 at 9:10 am

    I wonder if the feelings of awe inspired in nonreligious people over “the way the world works” is similar to “religious feelings.”

  123. October 27, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    I had a reason for directing you to Chopra’s book, Mitch. I wanted you to become aware of the two classes of people, one a majority, the other an extreme minority, populating this earth that goes beyond religions and political affinities. It makes it easier to understand sometimes when it is written down in logical order. And, coming from some other source. You’re one of the very few that are willing to communicate is an intelligent and decent manner. I think you summed it all up in this sentence: “There are different levels of description suitable to different ways of understanding.” As your understanding grows I’d like to think about what Chopra meant when he made this definition of a Spiritual person: “They exist … as direct experience.”

    As you can see from your own comment, personal impressions preclude one’s judgments and confuse conclusions. (That’s why you never want to make assumptions.) Which should explain why I blog anonymously. That may change sometime, but I’ve had my time under the sun. Just remember, we exist on this planet because of who we are. Not because of who we think or believer are and certainly not because of what or who someone else thinks or believes we are. I appreciate the comments.

  124. suzy blah blah
    October 28, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    -anyone who doesn’t recognize the reality of Satan is a real problem.

  125. October 28, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    suzy blah blah,
    What about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy?
    Once upon a time, the people were told the world was flat. Today we’re led to believe that Soetoro is the first Pres. of U.S. Inc. with dark skin. Or that we have to carry a drivers license to travel on the FREEway.

  126. suzy blah blah
    October 28, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    -suzy don’t know nuthin bout no president, but the tooth fairy has nitrous, the easter bunny mushrooms, and santa’s caught in the chimney with your gift, they’re askin’ to see his license, ;-)

    … did you watch the David Icke stream today? I forgot to check it out but thanks for the tip. (synchronicity?), My friend came by tonight and we watched half of the African interview with Credd Mutwa just an hour ago. An awesome story. He ate the body of the “gods”. The Zulu ancestors knew the world was spherical thousands of years ago.

  127. Plain Jane
    October 28, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are both based on pagan beliefs, don’t know where the tooth fairy came from.

  128. suzy blah blah
    October 28, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    -i think there were a lot of fairies all through Europe, Having a tooth come out can be traumatic for a child and sounds like the remnant of sort of an initiation rite to adolescence or something. Fairies, like santa’s elves, have gifts in folklore. A metaphor could be the Universe has gifts, of knowledge, for going through certain passages common to all. Like Santa and the Easter bunny, that sorta got lost in an orgy of wrapped presents, chocolate and money under the pillow. Sad.
    Back to Africa, we’re watching the 2nd half. Some of them knew it was spherical 1000 yrs ago. Some thought it was hemispherical –they had it half right.

  129. October 29, 2012 at 3:01 am

    Ahh suzy, you’re just too funny, crack me up. Can’t stream diddle, stuck with dial-up – many, many redwoods – oh well. I have all of Icke’s books and videos from years past tho.

    Plain Jane, for the Santa Clause and Easter Bunny story, see Pharmacratic Inquisition – two guys talkin slow for a couple of hours . . .lots of mushrooms.

  130. Plain Jane
    October 29, 2012 at 5:16 am

    David Icke???? Seriously? OMFG!

  131. Tim Whatley
    October 29, 2012 at 5:22 am

    “…don’t know where the tooth fairy came from.” American Dental Association.

  132. October 29, 2012 at 9:42 am

    “The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.” J. Edgar Hoover

  133. Plain Jane
    October 29, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Icke has no more credibility than the zombie apocalypse or Joseph Smith.

  134. October 29, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Here’s a wrap-up to go with Jane’s — not as lofty a source, but well thought and written.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/opinion/keller-the-no-agenda-myth.html

  135. October 29, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    fairies and ‘nisse’ — you can bet there are a lot of them believed or at least smiled with in Europe, particularly as you go north. A side of wonder in personality which I confess to like.

  136. October 29, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    “When words lose their meaning people will lose their liberty.” Confusis
    Apocalypse (13c) – to uncover. As in the Internet. We have been provided tools to uncover the truth. Either you choose (free will) to research, or you don’t. If we want something we’ve never had, we must be willing to do something we’ve never done.

  137. suzy blah blah
    October 29, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    “…so how do we find our grounding in a place where there is no point of reference?” Chopra gives us a clue: “The saints and sages of the past were Einsteins of consciousness, explorers into the nature of reality. They were testing the soul hypothesis.” To know “reality” is to know one of these people today.

    -wisdom can’t be obtained through books or lectures. It is only transmitted from one individual to another in a personal and unique way. The depersonalization and mass organization of society is destructive to feeling. In the collective consciousness the brain rules over the heart. Eros isn’t honored anymore. And Eros is personal. One being to another.

  138. Anonymous
    October 29, 2012 at 6:49 pm
  139. October 30, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    suzy, you’ve been writing some very insightful and interesting things lately, most on other postings, but this is the one I like best.

    I’m trusting it is still you personally, for the ‘wrinkles’ of a fine cheer visible.

  140. October 30, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    I don’t believe Chopra, Mitch or I were discussing “wisdom,” Suzy. Mitch was trying to get at workable solutions to our collective problems. I offered him, based upon a lifetime of experience, a “reference point.” However, your point is well taken. Chopra’s book is about unique and very “rare” people. Unless you can find such people today, you are not going to get what you call “wisdom” or anything else of any relevant importance that will make a difference. What I learned from Chopra, while he doesn’t claim to be any of these kinds of people, he does understand who they are, which is more than I can say for most if not all others. “Einsteins of consciousness” are not people easily understood or accepted.

  141. October 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Joe Blow,
    I think you’re confusing knowledge with wisdom. One may have all of the knowledge in the world, but what good is it if we don’t act upon it? Which is what wisdom means to me. I certainly did not know Gandhi or Thomas Jefferson, however, I feel that they, and many others, left behind messages of knowledge for us all. Such as:
    “Your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, your habits become your values, and your values become your destiny.” Gandhi
    I’ve learned much here on Humboldt Hearld’s blogs/threads, whether we ever meet in the flesh or not.

  142. October 30, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Forest Queen, much agree with you that there’s a lot of real interest coming on these Humboldt weblogs, from a distinct locale in the world. I keep getting the surprise.

    Thomas Jefferson, though. His story seems to contain much beneath its surfaces to show why we need to be just as interested in the growth in thinking as we are in actions. I found a long and interesting read, off all places, in the Smithsonian magazine, which I just happened to glance at in a library. It tells how, and most importantly, why and with what effects that he caused in his own life that Jefferson reversed himself on slavery after such fine words.

    You could never learn so well why it is important to move beyond the ‘founding fathers’, whatever they in a time and place began. Sobering, and energising.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Little-Known-Dark-Side-of-Thomas-Jefferson-169780996.html?c=y&story=fullstory

    See the full magazine if you’re in town and can, because it has some good illustrations and if I remember, photographs, which ‘add to the picture’ as it is told.

    Ghandi was also a quite complex character, who’d had a full life as a lawyer in Africa before his historic time in India. He knew rather precisely what he was doing, and who would suffer for it, for what their group would gain. More a Lincoln, or in fact a George Washington, I think, and interesting to know with what thoughtfulness and remove from the imaginary, yet strongly following imagination that he arrived at his own actions, have felt..

  143. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    many, many redwoods – oh well. I have all of Icke’s books and videos from years past tho.

    -that sounds extraordinarily beautiful. Where i am it’s been logged thoroughly and there are only a few clusters of redwoods around. As a booby prize there is satellite reception. We watched most of the six and a half hours of the Matwa interview over the weekend. Then today i watched the Pharmacratic Inquisition on youtube. There’s lots of Icke videos there too, 20 or 30 hours, i’d guess. Thanks again for the direction. David Icke doesn’t have credentials? LOL! Maybe he doesn’t have a drivers license either.

    -Joe, Deepak Chopra is a popular product. But for me a little too arrogant. He’s a lot like you though. Which is a compliment ;- But it’s a little too heavy on the system for me, suzy’s waiting for the Chopra Lite to come out.

    -PJ, suzy saw Gary Zukov on Oprah. He was explaining about the quantum soul-mates, or some shit. Then they switched to a commercial on Coffee-mate … and when they came back on Oprah had this subtle little smile on her face.

    “A person that seeks relationships only to satisfy his or her own needs, such as his or her own emotional or sexual needs, will find that each relationship is essentially identical. That the people in his or her life are replaceable, that experiences with the first and experiences with the second are essentially the same. Each new experience is not really new. It’s more of the same (suzy calls that the “coffee mate”). To experience relationships of substance and depth requires entering into relationships with consciousness and concern for the other. (the soul mate?) ” -Gary Zukov.

  144. October 30, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    suzy is ever adept at making the useful smiles that implore, like ‘coffee mate’ ;) Plus, quantum indeed.

    Forest Queen, the pictures for the article are actually there on line — found them from an area you click on the sidebar. They are worthwhile, when reading what and who they are images of. Like the nails..

  145. October 30, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    For those who might not get to the article on Jefferson, a capsule from it on why he reversed on his words, and went back full force to employing slavery. The page from the journal is among the pictures.

    “The critical turning point in Jefferson’s thinking may well have come in 1792. As Jefferson was counting up the agricultural profits and losses of his plantation in a letter to President Washington that year, it occurred to him that there was a phenomenon he had perceived at Monticello but never actually measured. He proceeded to calculate it in a barely legible, scribbled note in the middle of a page, enclosed in brackets. What Jefferson set out clearly for the first time was that he was making a 4 percent profit every year on the birth of black children. The enslaved were yielding him a bonanza, a perpetual human dividend at compound interest. Jefferson wrote, “I allow nothing for losses by death, but, on the contrary, shall presently take credit four per cent. per annum, for their increase over and above keeping up their own numbers.” His plantation was producing inexhaustible human assets. The percentage was predictable.”

    Sound like any ‘principles’ we are laboring to throw off again today? And I can say it sounds just like the story a local star accountant told of his exploits against local tradespeople, in a still-showing-Dickens district I live outside of for some years, in Northern England.

  146. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    suzy is ever adept at making the useful smiles

    -“smile”? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Useful? … Maybe it’s one of those old hippy things, but i suspect Narr must’ve meant “simile”. The “coffee mate”, a chum you meet at the water cooler during break. Could’ve maybe been one of those quirksome typos –suzy doesn’t know. Could’ve been anything …
    “A man of genius makes no mistakes. His errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.”
    ― James Joyce,

    ‘wrinkles’ of a fine cheer visible

    -that one i’m not gonna touch without calling in the bomb squad first.

  147. October 30, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Ok, call them, if you are that worried, but wrinkles in this case are sort of dimensional wrinkles, in the surfaces of things you write.

    For me, out of them peeks a kind of delightful aspect of person, unrepressed. That’s all, except that I remember this whenever there are misunderstandings.

    ‘useful smiles’ — well, you can get this surely if you want to. An otherwise sort of heavy monologue (about seventies ‘relationships’?) is well relieved, and also highlighted then, by the trope of ‘coffee mate[s]’.

    I honestly didn’t catch until later the link to Oprah’s commercial, but this was effective anyway. Useful. All I meant to say.

    I do possibly make the mistake that someone good at inventing linguistic items is prepared to play catch with them from others. When you want.

  148. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    -that’s okay, i think it’s called “transferred identification syndrome”. Heard about it watching Dr. Phil. When typing/acting really fast it’s easy to confuse an “am” for an “I” –or when listening/receiving really fast, a “me” for a “b”. Lot of people confuse the subject for the object. And/or the predicate for the promise. Like all of the time (space), man. But suzy knows who i am. Knowing, not necessarily understanding, that “all at once” is the samething as “one – thing – after – another” … in one yard, a game of catch, ( > —– < ). In another, * a * * danc*e * of * fire*flies * *… * NOW! for real. One is two, and the "third person" is the holy ghost/spirit.

    “Every life is in many days, day after day. We walk through ourselves, meeting robbers, ghosts, giants, old men, young men, wives, widows, brothers-in-love. But always meeting ourselves.”
    ― James Joyce

  149. October 30, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Ok, good. And for once, I particularly agree with your Joyce…besides a few other things.

    And definitely, fire/flies

    ;)

  150. October 30, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    Narration,
    I don’t place any more on the ‘founding fathers’ than I do on, for example, Alistair Crowley. However, that’s not to say that A.C. didn’t have some insightful things to say: “Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external imposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe, and suffers accordingly.”

    Underneath George Washington’s bust/plimp in D. C. it reads:
    Free Mason AND First President. Pretty much up front. And he had this to say: “I have heard much of the nefarious and dangerous plan of the Illuminati . . . It was not my intention to doubt that the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism, had spread in the United States, on the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied than I am.”

    I may not get ‘in town’ for some time. Haven’t seen my truck in 6 weeks and a day. I’m beginning to think that my mechanic friend has either sold it for parts, or repaired the clutch and drove it, then to his surprise found that it isn’t registered – no corporation plates – and it got impounded. Thanks for the Jefferson link, I’ll check it.

  151. October 30, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Suzy,
    Thanks for the Gary Zukov quote . . .what I find fascinating is how the Universe serves up the next ‘right in-tune’ step as our foot is on the down stroke.
    Also, if you haven’t watched Michael Tsarion’s “Origins of Evil,” I’m sure you’ll like it too.

  152. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    -i suspect you meant my “choice”, but lookout, here comes a couple of bright lights.

  153. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    -that kermit video was thrown @ Narration’s baskethoop (is that what they call it?). Forest, i’m gonna watch it, The Origin’s –maybe tonight.

  154. October 30, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    Hmm. Second take, you know. I often do that, or more likely, even don’t count the numbers..

    How/should I tell suzy a whole/thing strikes me as beautiful? but it is, and others inclusive of Joyces may become better illuminated. A(ye) thank you, for we should say that.

    Quite too far to offer you a ride, but I would otherwise — to a film I saw just Sunday. I can’t really recommend it to anyone somehow, except to reflect a little on the large size in which I enjoyed it, and the gently expanding time this has lasted, certainly not done.

    I would offer Jack the same, and first intended to out of a different pocket, but he’ll find that out here.

    The film is Cloud Atlas. Among many other things, a true gift from Europe, in our time, I felt. It has just enough flaw in sides to be very really of artists. Pay no attention to critics, even the best. Though I agree the best of them in his word, that it is most about freedom,.

    I think you have to drive up to the Broadway Cinema in Eureka, though maybe that changes. I hope that’s a theater with good screening, which will be worth it. Know that it’s long, and that the first 40 minutes may seem a bit abrupt, but probably from then you won’t mind anything.

    That is all, so I don’t begin another story…/of/this evening.

  155. October 30, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    My, lots of things going on while head was down this time,,,

    Forest Queen, George Washington, yes. He was one who did give up his slaves. A Deist, like a number of them, which seems to have a part in matters; not sure if of the slavery question part.

    I got over the wooden teeth and the silk pantaloons, and became a bit interested in him, particularly what seems his quota of mystery. Maybe you will tend me to discover more, out of these conversations.

    As mentioned, you don’t have to go to town, either — the pix turn out to be there on the website, once you click to them. Much more convenient, I think even on your piece-of-string at present. Enough places in the world I’ve worked with that sort of connection.

    Do watch out for the sold-it-for-parts (much laughing, and thinking of another movie, Doc Hollywood if you ever saw it, of some wit). Or that he got impounded, either. Would hate to hear you are stranded.

    Ok, I have to go catch suzy’s backetball, or whatever its metamorphed into in flight. That’s a fun of it…best to both of you.

  156. October 30, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    Well, basketball = very fun. Thank you also.

  157. suzy blah blah
    October 30, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    others inclusive of Joyces may become better illuminated

    -i don’t think so:

  158. October 30, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Ha ha, don’t distract me. I’m listening to an interview with your Michael Tsarion.

  159. suzy blah blah
    October 31, 2012 at 2:10 am

    @ Forest Queen, i tuned into it and realized i’d already seen The Origins of Evil. It’s excellent though, for sure, so i listened to him again. I do that a lot. It sometimes goes in one ear and out the other, LOL! You are strong and brave in rejecting what i see as the false “need of safety and comfort” offered and sold to us by society in exchange for your licensing, registration, etc. –yOur enslavement. I appreciate that.

  160. October 31, 2012 at 8:50 am

    suzy blah blah,
    Strong and brave? I see it as fact and fiction. More of a challenge . . .”Show me the law!”
    And yes, ‘safety and comfort’ have nothing to do with enslavement via adhesion contracts.
    I stopped supporting the illegal d/l, and regis three+ years ago – it was a milestone.

    There is no crime, just commerce. There’s no such thing as a sovereign in commerce.

  161. October 31, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Narration,
    “How do I tell suzy . . .?”
    suzy,
    IMHumboldtO, Narration doesn’t operate at the lower frequencies of ego, control and intimidation. He’s attained the higher vibrations of autonomy, mastery and respect,
    (no we don’t need a room). As a reader of both of your posts, what I interpret as “wrinkles of a fine cheer visible,” is a compliment. And suzy’s “won’t touch it without calling the bomb squad first,” I find to be suzy’s usual enchanting wit – also of a higher vibration.

  162. October 31, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Suzy: “-Joe, Deepak Chopra is a popular product. But for me a little too arrogant. He’s a lot like you though. Which is a compliment ;- But it’s a little too heavy on the system for me, suzy’s waiting for the Chopra Lite to come out.”

    Thanks for the bit of insight. It seems, that’s most peoples problem with me – too heavy.

  163. October 31, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Forest Queen, talks of “messages of knowledge.” What makes them credible knowledge, such as Gandhi’s example below, is if they are proven true. These are the people Chopra is talking about, those that by “direct experience” prove truth and reality. They take simple words that reside in the thoughts or beliefs and make them real and practical in their lives. They come to know the difference. Gandhi’s words may be true, but then again they may not be true. How would you know?

    Forest Queen :
    Joe Blow,
    I think you’re confusing knowledge with wisdom. One may have all of the knowledge in the world, but what good is it if we don’t act upon it? Which is what wisdom means to me. I certainly did not know Gandhi or Thomas Jefferson, however, I feel that they, and many others, left behind messages of knowledge for us all. Such as:
    “Your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, your habits become your values, and your values become your destiny.” Gandhi
    I’ve learned much here on Humboldt Hearld’s blogs/threads, whether we ever meet in the flesh or not.

  164. October 31, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Joe Blow,
    For example: I changed my belief after researching/due diligence regarding, among other things, taxes, labeled license and registration. My thoughts became/changed . . . my words changed (I travel, I do not drive),which became my action to ‘Notice’ revenue trolls, labeled law enforcement (an oxymoron) that if any one of them attempt to force their corporate, criminal, commercial codes, rules, or regulations on Me that they will be held responsible in their personal capacity (a Fee Schedule is also attached). That if they perceive any obedience by Me, it shall be viewed to be a mistake. That if I reply/speak to them, it is only out of courtesy. It’s a 20 page legal size document, that explains in detail, with Court rulings, and codes. “No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefore.” Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105. “If the State converts a right into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right with impunity.” Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham Alabama, 373 US 262. Foreign copyrighted codes begin with “No person shall . . .” The word ‘no’ is a negative state of being. Where’s the fact? As well I am not a “person,” “individual,” “driver,” “passenger,” “Ms,” “Mrs,” (title of nobility). I don’t use the word ‘vehicle.” I explain the federal use of zip codes, and that my Name is EXACTLY this, and my address is EXACTLY this (California, not abbreviated, no zip), and if not shown exactly like this, in any communication with Me “You, Michael Downey, the private male acting as Sheriff of Humboldt County, and subordinates and successors, are NOTICED as implied under your oaths, that you intend to be guilty of mail fraud. Any communication with me in any manner not “Under penalty of perjury” would constitute an acceptance to the fee of:” and I list amounts to be paid in ounces of pure silver. They are my servants, I am part of the public. You, me, we pay their salary – we are their employers. I simply spell it all out in irrefutable language. If, for some reason, my public servants were to try and force their commercial process on Me, I file a Criminal Complaint (notarized), and attach the evidence, my NOTICE, along with proof of service (registered mail receipt). A recorded, un-rebutted NOTICE/Affidavit (I allow ten days usually) stands as truth in a court of law.
    So, my habit of traveling for over 3 years, have become my values, and hence my destiny of traveling on FREEways without paying into their corrupt system.
    If we want control of our lives, we must take control of our language.
    And, of course, I’m practiced in how to reply to the police in a police state. They are our brothers and sisters and in need of education – as we all are.

  165. October 31, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Forest Queen. Does it work?

  166. October 31, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Hey suzi,
    Serendepity? The Shift Network is hosting Gary Zukov tomorrow on-line. It’s a free registration.
    http://authenticpowercourse.com/authenticpower

  167. October 31, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Joe Blow,
    What do you mean does it work? As in, am I motioned roadside – no. It’s preemptive action. This is who I am, this is what I’m not. Any county I travel in – 3 – are NOTICED. It’s been over a year since my last encounter in Arcata. “Are you from Southern Humboldt?” he said with a drawl. “Are there more like you?” I just start laughing, and told him that I’m working on it. I ask if there’s an emergency? “No.” And, “Did you witness me committing a crime?” “No.” Those are the ONLY two reasons to be legally motioned roadside. I had a nice conversation with a Sergeant Bertain. Autographed their citation with By: in front of my name, and didn’t receive anything in the mail. Same with Eureka Police, who by letter tried to force their commercial crap on me, via letter, saying I had been in a hit-and-run over last year’s holidaze. I replied, via letter, that I wasn’t in Humboldt County on that day, and that I do not consent to any frivolous investigation. That was the end of that. Oh, and the only reason I opened it was because my Name wasn’t in all caps.
    Ya gotta stop complying, cooperating, and consenting. It’s all by VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE. I do not have any contracts with CA. INC. – I’m not in their jurisdiction.

  168. October 31, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    Forest Queen, “Stop complying, cooperating and consenting” my sentiments exactly. Mitch, for one, doesn’t think this is a Gandhian solution to any of the current problems facing everyone.

  169. October 31, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Funny, cause this is where Gandhi started when he freed a nation without firing a single shot. If we want freedom, proven freedom, I’d say it’s a good place to start. We are the source of all currency – disconnect your battery cables. I don’t get it when ‘persons’ complain about ‘current problems’ (whatever that means), and carry around the corporation’s cards- SUPPORTING THE VERY SYSTEM THAT THEY’RE COMPLAINING ABOUT!
    If you can’t see the game, then you’re not even looking for the rules. “You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play it better than anyone else” – Einstein.

  170. November 1, 2012 at 8:22 am

    “If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; for that is where they should be. Now put foundations under them.” Thoreau

    We’ve been calling this the time of Awakening – the time of realizing who we really are – a time of more deliberate Awareness, and a time of greater sensitivity to broaden perspective. Humanity has always had access to this non-physical energy stream, but if you’re not consciously aware of it, you’re not AWAKE to it.

    As we deliberately look for positive aspects in those around us, we train our vibration into increasing improved vibrations. It does not matter how many negative thoughts of before, or how long negativity has been focused on. We can deliberately focus on improved thoughts right now – Law of Attraction.

    So, come now my sisters and brothers, ye Queens and Kings, step into your long-awaited rightful and righteous positions. If you remain bowed-down and bent over, more than your knees will be sore.

    As George Carlin said in 2005 – “The game is rigged – it is a big club, and you ain’t in it.”
    However, theirs is a club of illusion and glass, and the club now in the hands of the people, is real . . . can you hear it swinging?

  171. November 1, 2012 at 9:02 am

    Five surgeons are discussing who were the best patients to operate on.
    The first surgeon says, ‘I like to see Accountants on my operating table because when you open them up, everything is numbered.’
    The second responds, ‘Yeah, but you should try Electricians! Everything inside them is color-coded.’
    The third surgeon says, ‘No, I really think Librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order.’
    The fourth surgeon chimes in, ‘You know I like Construction Workers . . Those guys always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end, and when the job takes longer than you said it would.’
    The fifth surgeon shut them all up when he observed, ‘You’re all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There’s no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains, and no spine, and there are only two moving parts – the mouth and the asshole – and they are interchangeable.’

  172. November 1, 2012 at 9:19 am

    A rather appropriate joke, but what about the people that support and enable the politicians? What’s that say about them? They breed through osmosis?

  173. November 1, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Poly – many, ticks – blood suckers. People do not support many blood suckers, PERSONS do. “The word “person” includes corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as “individuals,” 1 USC 1.
    I think they just ‘merge.’

    Woe to the lawyers and their enablers. (I just typed this in my browser, and up came my same reply on Kym Kempe’s blog – same day last year, exact same time!) de ja vue
    I couldn’t remember if the word is attorneys, or lawyers. Woe means death in it’s original term.

  174. November 1, 2012 at 11:00 am

    When it comes to holding the persons/people who are truly responsible, it seems Forest Queen you, like most people have a hard time. Problem is, Democracy works. You vote, you own it.

  175. November 1, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    I know exactly to hold responsible Joe, – the ONLY ones we can hold responsible Joe, are the ones who took an oath – NOTHING to do with demonology, republicanitice, lefty, righty, uppie, downie, or any other label of division. You own NOTHING, you just beLIEve you do.
    We have the government we deserve – the blame is on our shoulders.

    “Leave no authority in place that does not represent the will of the people.”

  176. November 2, 2012 at 9:23 am

    Well, that clears that up. Probably a better way to say it: “We have the government we deserve – the blame is on our shoulders.” Not many people understand that simple truth. Tragically, I don’t think there is much if anything anyone can do to head off or circumvent the Karmic reality facing the American people today.

  177. November 2, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Tragically, I don’t think there is much if anything anyone can do to head off or circumvent the Karmic reality facing the American people today.

    Yeh, thats a tragic indeed. I think there is plenty you can do, but whatever. Votes are not the only thing that effect the quality of life in a free society. And as far a that being taken away, I think convincing 300 million Americans of that will be harder than catastrophists think.

  178. November 2, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Too many assumptions postulated as mass confusion, there guy. First, I’m not talking about “Votes.” I’m talking about VOTERS. Read and try to understand what is written BEFORE yapping. If you believe we live in a “free society” you must have just crawled out from under some rock out here in the bay. Good try confusing the commentary.

  179. November 2, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Joe Blow,
    The people must act in unity with one common goal until the standard is in place, and not allow ourselves to be distracted (or killed) by the foxes.

    “If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you, and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it’s better to perish than live as slaves.” Winston Churchill

    “Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” Einstein
    You know that of course.

  180. November 2, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Know anyone that thinks like you do, Forest Queen?

  181. November 2, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Joe Blow,

    Perhaps you?

    Just enough – you know, the 3% that pulls the 97% . . . who are capable of fighting, fleeing, freezing, feeding and . . . reproduction.

    Many have sacrificed their lives for us. There is no lesser human being. How can we not be humble in Humboldt? We’re at the tree’s roots – where the root of the truth is.

    “I know of no safer depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, and if we think them not AEnlightened enough to exercise their control without wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion.”
    Jefferson

  182. suzy blah blah
    November 2, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    So, come now my sisters and brothers, ye Queens and Kings, step into your long-awaited rightful and righteous positions.

    I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
    Alive as you or me
    Tearing through these quarters
    In the utmost misery
    With a blanket underneath his arm
    And a coat of solid gold
    Searching for the very souls
    Whom already have been sold

    “Arise, arise,” he cried so loud
    In a voice without restraint
    “Come out, ye gifted kings and queens
    And hear my sad complaint
    No martyr is among ye now
    Whom you can call your own
    So go on your way accordingly
    But know you’re not alone”

    I dreamed I saw St. Augustine
    Alive with fiery breath
    And I dreamed I was amongst the ones
    That put him out to death
    Oh, I awoke in anger
    So alone and terrified
    I put my fingers against the glass
    And bowed my head and cried

    bobdylan

  183. November 2, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    suzy blah blah,
    I just love you . . . thanks for this.

    . . . I was amongst the ones that put him out to death . . . yep, we always kill the messenger.

  184. November 3, 2012 at 11:53 am

    I’m not dead yet – damn near it, though.

  185. November 3, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Forest Queen, yes, suzy committed another beauty here — much enjoyed in the finding, and to look a little further, yesterday evening.

    Joe, hang in there. For one reason, I’m still patiently decoding the things you say, and insights come on this that are interesting ;)

  186. November 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Narration, than you.

  187. November 3, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    This is really more aimed at Anon and Mitch on the ‘Lesley Gore’ blog – but I’d rather post on this more friendly one:

    Live a life that matters, ready or not, someday it will all be gone. Living a life that matters doesn’t happen by accident. It’s not a matter of circumstance, but of choice.

    What will matter is not what you bought, but what you built. Not what you got, but what you gave.

  188. November 3, 2012 at 10:31 pm

    Let me offer this to you who have been enjoying a little of the atmosphere gathered here. I came across it tonight after reading in a series of articles about the presidential decision, but that’s not the subject here. I’ll give a hint by quoting some of it, and just say that I found a particularly pleasant moment somehow, far from where any of us would probably normally go.

    In the end, which may sound at first a little harsher, instead I found perhaps a reason I’ve long appreciated Erich Fromm, from my youth and for his faults, in the ways he showed as well as expressed his practice as a mystic.

    I will go back to the things I do, maybe with a little fraction more of a certain light on them. May this be true for any and each of you.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/08/what-can-you-really-know/?pagination=false

    Here’s the promised quote, from somewhere in this essay which also is a book review: When you get to the end of the last paragraph, you’ll know why I thought to put this quote, at least, here. I’ll put a link to the author, after.

    “The philosophers that Holt interviewed wander over a wide landscape. The main theme of their discussions is a disagreement between two groups that I call materialists and Platonists. Materialists imagine a world built out of atoms. Platonists imagine a world built out of ideas. This division into two categories is a gross simplification, lumping together people with a great variety of opinions. Like taxonomists who name species of plants and animals, observers of the philosophical scene may be splitters or lumpers. Splitters like to name many species; lumpers like to name few.

    Holt is a splitter and I am a lumper. Philosophers are mostly splitters, dividing their ways of thinking into narrow specialties such as theism or deism or humanism or panpsychism or axiarchism. Examples of each of these isms are to be seen in Holt’s collection. I find it more convenient to lump them into two big groups, one obsessed with matter and the other obsessed with mind. Holt asks them to explain why the world exists. For the materialists, the question concerns the origin of space and time and particles and fields, and the relevant branch of science is physics. For the Platonists, the question concerns the origin of meaning and purpose and consciousness, and the relevant science is psychology.

    The most impressive of the Platonists is John Leslie, who spent most of his life teaching philosophy at the University of Guelph and is now living in retirement on the west coast of Canada. He calls himself an extreme axiarchist. The word “axiarchism” is Greek for “value rules,” meaning that the world is built out of ideas, and the Platonic idea of the Good gives value to everything that exists. Leslie takes seriously Plato’s image of the cave as a metaphor of human life. We live in a cave, seeing only shadows cast on the wall by light streaming in from the entrance. The real objects outside the cave are ideas, and all the things that we perceive inside are imperfect images of ideas. Evil exists because our images are distorted. The ultimate reality hidden from our view is Goodness. Goodness is a strong enough force to pull the universe into existence. Leslie understands that this explanation of existence is a poetic fantasy rather than a logical argument. Fantasy comes to the rescue when logic fails. The whole range of Plato’s thinking is embodied in his dialogues, which are dramatic reconstructions of the conversations of his master Socrates. They are based on imagination, not on logic.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson

  189. November 3, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Thank you for that Narration,
    Some of this page is missing ?

  190. November 4, 2012 at 12:06 am

    I think what I said and quoted is all there, Forest Queen. It ends on a link to wikipedia.

    If you don’t get to that, maybe it’s that connection you sometimes mention, as the note is long. Maybe try reloading?

    The NY Review of Books article linked and quoted is very long, if the problem is occurring there.

  191. November 4, 2012 at 12:10 am

    Oh, no, you’re right. That link worked fine earlier but it doesn’t now, late at night where it comes from.

    Instead use this link, and just click to go to the second page when you get to the intended break, in the usual way.:

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/08/what-can-you-really-know/

    Sorry about that — Internet, you know ;)

  192. November 4, 2012 at 12:13 am

    Thank you again for that, Narration
    So, Into the Now, same ‘ol, same ‘ol
    There is order in Nature, and because this order is inheritantly comprised of self-similar fractal patterns. There is nothing new under the sun.

    “First it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
    Arthur Schopenhauer , German Philosopher

    The fictions are bleeding from their finger nails, trying to hang onto the lies. The fiction is minus any foundation – no truth.

    How do you distinguish theft from taxation? Is this not the question?

  193. November 4, 2012 at 12:37 am

    Well, two things. I think there is still quite an enormity of room in what science can work to discover, not same ‘ol, same ól. Quantum mechanics, no one understands. The best will tell you so. I can say though that while it may turn out to have connection, so far no one has a link to fractality or deeper complex adaptive system views. QM is truly a mystery, though we use it practically as we type here, and in nearly everything electronic.

    Now, theft/taxation, and the range of your views that I do look at. Forest Queen, I think there’s a basic question not unlike in difficulty to the quantum mechanics (and some have gone off looking in that direction for a better sociology, even).

    That question is what you think to do, if you really were to get an abandonment of our present systems, reminding also that they are several — what the Chinese do is pretty different from our Wall Street wrecker/genii (they aren’t), just for one example. Korea, where I lived during their great turn which would lead from starvation to prosperity, has been yet again different. And all the faces of Europe, just to have a few of the possible sides..

    At basis, I would have to paraphrase Winston Churchill, that half-American who reminded that the then-present democracy/caplitalism arrangementwas a pretty awful thing…except for any of its visible alternatives. I presently live, and was helped in need, by the cultural morality individuals kept, in some connection with the Soviet and Russian system. It’s been a fascinating experience in the midst of actually getting caught where I never imagined, in the maelstrom of a true collapse of part of the American system, even thinking I had left it.

    If you have had that kind of experience, known the fearfulness of really being abandoned of all the advantages you had a life of depending on, which includes such things as your own humorous relationship with the authority of police, then you better understand the waters that lie beneath the fragile ship we constructed, and keep constructing, to keep afloat, and progressing so all may progress.

    That’s a big job in itself, and I have and have had enough of the real anarchist in character to know a viewpoint or two on this well enough, and from an amount of time.

    I’ve let you know my appreciation for your own maritime adventures, Forest Queen, and that doesn’t change. Imagination, as Dyson hints, is clearly enormous in our capability, and it comes in as many forms as persons, which can be often enough our delight.

    I just think there always has to be a sense of proportion, of judgment that lets the art have the chance to become, so to be real. If we are actually out there without the benefit of contemporary systems, we not only have no internet to converse, we are spending all our time in only surviving, getting food, shelter, and health. Life is then short, and with little to spare of advancement, of its essential, time.

    There was that guy back then of Nazareth who is reported to have said a useful thing on the subject, it seems. Render unto Caeser what is Caeser’s. He then also dispatched the moneychangers who got near the temple. It’s not the worst model, is it? A due amount of each importance, a proportion. Then we have a balance that can be worked with, a balance in which to be engaged.

    In a real world, there’s nothing I know that’s more pragmatic, or effective. I’ve had the friendship of a few artists of considerable fame, or just ability. I found myself remarking on what I saw at close range, that ‘these are some of the most practical persons I ever see.’

    Artist or any other seeker, I think there’s something gained, to observe that way, so can recommend it.

  194. November 4, 2012 at 12:56 am

    In the American Republic there can be no law that compels specific performance, including the payment of any tax, except excise tax on gasoline, cigarettes, and alcoholic beverages, they must be uniform throughout the states. Less than 5 out of 100 Americans know this truth. Partial List of Taxes:
    Building Permits
    CDL License Tax Telephone Recurring & Non-recurring Chg.
    Cooporate Income Tax Telephone State & Local Tax
    Dog License Tax Telephone Usage Charge Tax
    Federal Income Tax Utility Tax
    Federal Unemployment Tax Vehicle License Registration Tax
    Fishing License Tax Vehicle Sales Tax
    Food License Tax Watercraft Registration Tax
    Fuel Permit Tax Well Permit Tax
    Gasoline Tax Worker’s Compensation Tax
    Hunting License Tax
    Inheritance Tax
    Inventory Tax
    IRS Interest charges(tax on top of tax)
    IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax, on top of tax)
    Liquor Tax
    Marriage License Tax
    Medicare Tax
    Property Tax
    Real Estate Tax
    Service Charges Tax
    Social Security Tax
    Sales Tax
    Recreational Vehicle Tax
    School Tax
    State Income Tax
    State Unemployment Tax
    Telephone Federal Excise Tax
    Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
    Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax

    (And to think we left Britain to avoid so many taxes).
    Still think this is funny?

    Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago. And this country was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt. We had the largest middle-class in the world. . . and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What happened? Can you spell
    ‘politician?’ – (along with all-the-way-dumbed-down so-called ‘education.’)

  195. November 4, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Well, consider that a rough hundred years ago our people as you define them existed on frontiers. We could out-run (walk) any situations, and there were resources where we could survive.

    The world is more complicated than that, now, as it was within the Chinese civilization(s) a thousand years or more earlier. You’d notice that systems of organisation and sharing out flows (taxation) took root there too, just as they do in natural ecologies where lives touch each other.

    I don’t think we can outrun, now, Forest Queen. That’s why to be interested in learning how to make cultures more complex, more multiple inside themselves, more generous, and more free. To include the times and efforts both you and I as well as a suzy spend very fruitfully in forests, contemplations, arts, and other chosen places.

    With sense and according to the techological levers of our time, there can be more of freedom, because the endless book-keeping, the bureaucracy, the insistence on extraction can be more and more reduced, especially in its demand on time and on resources and in influence.

    Keeping our heads above water, swimming in the streams, I think we can manage this. Swimming, rather than over-resisting, or over-thinking.

    Just my thought, and now to rest…

  196. Anonymous
    November 4, 2012 at 1:46 am

    “In the American Republic there can be no law that compels specific performance, including the payment of any tax, except excise tax on gasoline, cigarettes, and alcoholic beverages.”

    There you go again: Another claim made in the absence of any source or evidence to back it up.

    “Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago.”

    So it is your contention that there was no such thing as property taxes 100 years ago? Sorry, property taxes go all the way back to colonial times, and beyond.

    If, by any chance, you’d like to learn some actual facts, as opposed to just parroting the usual right wing nutjob talking points, you could start here:

    http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/fisher.property.tax.history.us

    Or you could just keep mindlessly cutting and pasting from the wingnut websites that just tell you what you want to hear.

  197. Anonymous
    November 4, 2012 at 1:48 am

    As far as how swell life was 100 years ago, if you’re as attached to that belief as you appear to be, then be sure not to consider what life was like for African-Americans, Native Americans, women, immigrants, mentally ill and developmentally disabled people, child laborers, sharecroppers, sweatshop workers, and poor people in general.

  198. November 4, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Narration,
    The ultimate reality hidden from view is goodness – I like that.
    I prefaced ‘same ol, same ol’ with into the ‘Now’- not discounting ‘science’ which has pretty much become the same word as politics. “Quantum Mechanics no one understands.” The Teslas, the Einsteins, the Wilhelm Reichs, etc. didn’t know quantum?
    “No one has a link to fractuality” – are you unfamiliar with western man’s medicine that stopped the Vietnam War? – patterns, sacred geometry shapes, tetrahadron – all in perfect harmony, from the quanta, to the most minute quirk.
    “What I think to do” – one small piece – Stop Serving. I’m willing to pay any obligation I might owe, when proof of claim is provided. The essence of an individual’s freedom is the opportunity to deviate from ‘programmed’ traditional ways of thinking and doing things. I’m not talking about Shut Down the System. We are here to ‘correct’ the system. We’re not in China, or Korea, or Europe . . . we’re at the same cross-roads where we met before. . . to keep one another in check.
    No one is going to give up their toys – the Internet to converse on, the infrastructure, as part of the ‘contemporary systems,’ is in tact. We’re not re-inventing the wheel. “Render unto Caeser what is Caesers. Does it not say on the D/L who/what it belongs to? It is not yours. Do people think that they’ll forget how to drive without that badge of slavery to carry around?

  199. Plain Jane
    November 4, 2012 at 10:05 am

    That “badge of slavery” is what identifies and holds you accountable if you do damage to someone else while operating a huge and potentially deadly machine, FQ.

  200. Mitch
    November 4, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Someone else, PJ? Don’t use language people don’t understand.

  201. November 4, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Narration,
    With regards to what the State produces – scarcity, debt, and fear – have you bought a lie, or have you been sold a lie? Not unlike the ’30’s G R E A T Depression, we are not short on labor or intelligence. The rivers of California are still flowing, plants still growing. Open up a pomagranite, see all the seeds? Abundance. Perhaps my advantage is I haven’t had a weapon of mass deception, labeled t.v., in 30+ years. New, new, newspapers, I pick up to start my fire with.

    And, I’m not interested in making our culture more complex, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant here.

  202. Plain Jane
    November 4, 2012 at 11:04 am

    I’m sure most people understand what “someone else” means, FQ, but since you apparently do not, “someone else” used in this context means “if you do damage to someone who is not you with the machine you are operating, your driver’s license identifies you and by identifying you the authorities and your victim can hold you responsible for the damages you caused.”

  203. November 4, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Hi, Forest Queen. I hope you enjoyed your extra hour, as I did.

    I think I remember mentioning Native American cultures for their high degree of sophistication in combining the viewpoint of the group, and of the intensely personal individual, within each of their members. You might quite enjoy getting to know some of them, if there are any remaining in the southern Humboldt area. Particularly younger people, on the edge of adulthood, where lots of this mix shows, and strongly.

    The state — well, some politics is anti-statist, yes. Part of our own myriad mix. Going back to Winston Churchill quoted above, though, I have to thing our states (at all levels) are just our best human attempts so far to try to combining organizing as we must for survival, and degrees of freedom for the human life and the human potential. We are decidedly far from perfect, and every once in a while a crisis comes to show so to us in a mirror. As others have said, the percentages and mere presence of certain candidates is eloquent.

    Buying in — well, I will just have to let you come to know me better. No comment needed, except let’s both continue in respecting each other’s intelligence, ok?

    Various persons and quantum mechanics. No, nobody understands, and Einstein would have been the first to tell you; later, the brilliant Richard Feynman put it in very direct words. Albert got his Nobel prize for QM, not for relativity, and then spent most of his adult life trying to untangle the discovery to any understanding which made sense with the rest of what he knew.

    What he actually had done was experimentally discover that QM existed, and then with a group of friends, work out a mathematical formalism (one not unrelated to the thermodynamics the quest began on) which _imitated_ what could be observed, thus could allow some predictions that could be tested. The understanding is nil — it is just a model for the external appearance. Einstein himself liked to grumble about ‘spukhafte fernwirkung’. My German isn’t a patch on Sandra Bullock’s, but I always like that phrase, pretty literally, ‘spook-responsible action at a distance.’ It is a deep mystery which we’ve now proven experimentally exists, and about which there are coming various startling ideas and possibilities, but again no solution or its knowledge as yet.

    Now, fractality, and its extremely larger parent, complex adaptive science. It isn’t just patterns various artists can enjoy. It does illuminate many disparate areas such as how sandpiles look (angle of repose), and how immune systems operate. You can look on santafe.edu for a glimpse at where the serious effort began many years ago, and I would mainly recommend their magazine called the Bulletin, particularly earlier years as we are now in the midst of a generational turnover.

    Let me give you something more definite to chew on — an interesting paper from John Padgett, Univ. Chicago, who unwrapped here how the Medici came to their power, various specific winds and wends to it. His summary at the beginning pages is the thing to read — the rest has become his largest life work. You’ll find it challenging as I did, but there’s a lot of substance there, food for growth and understanding even from something so ‘imperfect’.

    https://webshare.uchicago.edu/users/jpadgett/Public/papers/published/robust.pdf

    Apologies that it’s photo-based, and so a large pdf to download and not the easiest to view, but worth it. Here’s where the Bulletin issues are:

    http://www.santafe.edu/research/publications/sfi-bulletin/

    And here’s an issue that introduces Padgett and his work, in a pretty interesting way.

    http://www.santafe.edu/media/bulletin_pdf/summer1998v13n2.pdf

    Got to go…bus coming.

  204. November 4, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Plain Jaane,

    I did not comment to you. Mitch did. You need to aim your comment at him.

  205. Plain Jane
    November 4, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Sorry, I read that wrong.

  206. November 4, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Forest Queen, I left you a friendly reply a little after noon. It seems to have the moderation disease.

    Maybe because it has 3 links. I’ll repost if it doesn’t come out shortly.

  207. November 4, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    [ok, reposted anyway – no reason Mitch has to work on Sunday afternoon. I took out one link and explained where to find its topic — let’s see if that lets me post without moderation, then we all learn something]

    Hi, Forest Queen. I hope you enjoyed your extra hour, as I did.

    I think I remember mentioning Native American cultures for their high degree of sophistication in combining the viewpoint of the group, and of the intensely personal individual, within each of their members. You might quite enjoy getting to know some of them, if there are any remaining in the southern Humboldt area. Particularly younger people, on the edge of adulthood, where lots of this mix shows, and strongly.

    The state — well, some politics is anti-statist, yes. Part of our own myriad mix. Going back to Winston Churchill quoted above, though, I have to thing our states (at all levels) are just our best human attempts so far to try to combining organizing as we must for survival, and degrees of freedom for the human life and the human potential. We are decidedly far from perfect, and every once in a while a crisis comes to show so to us in a mirror. As others have said, the percentages and mere presence of certain candidates is eloquent.

    Buying in — well, I will just have to let you come to know me better. No comment needed, except let’s both continue in respecting each other’s intelligence, ok?

    Various persons and quantum mechanics. No, nobody understands, and Einstein would have been the first to tell you; later, the brilliant Richard Feynman put it in very direct words. Albert got his Nobel prize for QM, not for relativity, and then spent most of his adult life trying to untangle the discovery to any understanding which made sense with the rest of what he knew.

    What he actually had done was experimentally discover that QM existed, and then with a group of friends, work out a mathematical formalism (one not unrelated to the thermodynamics the quest began on) which _imitated_ what could be observed, thus could allow some predictions that could be tested. The understanding is nil — it is just a model for the external appearance. Einstein himself liked to grumble about ‘spukhafte fernwirkung’. My German isn’t a patch on Sandra Bullock’s, but I always like that phrase, pretty literally, ‘spook-responsible action at a distance.’ It is a deep mystery which we’ve now proven experimentally exists, and about which there are coming various startling ideas and possibilities, but again no solution or its knowledge as yet.

    Now, fractality, and its extremely larger parent, complex adaptive science. It isn’t just patterns various artists can enjoy. It does illuminate many disparate areas such as how sandpiles look (angle of repose), and how immune systems operate. You can look on santafe.edu for a glimpse at where the serious effort began many years ago, and I would mainly recommend their magazine called the Bulletin, particularly earlier years as we are now in the midst of a generational turnover.

    Let me give you something more definite to chew on — an interesting paper from John Padgett, Univ. Chicago, who unwrapped here how the Medici came to their power, various specific winds and wends to it. His summary at the beginning pages is the thing to read — the rest has become his largest life work. You’ll find it challenging as I did, but there’s a lot of substance there, food for growth and understanding even from something so ‘imperfect’.

    https://webshare.uchicago.edu/users/jpadgett/Public/papers/published/robust.pdf

    Apologies that it’s photo-based, and so a large pdf to download and not the easiest to view, but worth it.

    And here’s a Bulletin issue that introduces Padgett and his work, in a pretty interesting way. You can find all the other Bulletins under the Research menu on the main site.

    http://www.santafe.edu/media/bulletin_pdf/summer1998v13n2.pdf

    Got to go…bus coming.

  208. November 4, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    p.s try the article starting on its own page 14 of the Bulletin — That’s the one I intended, and there are actually several other writings mentioning Padgett and Florence in that issue.

  209. November 4, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Narration,
    You’ll have to come to know me better too, as a Platonist, a lumper tho . . . I like to correctly name/label few things, very few things. Because of this, quantum language is of more interest to me – simple, no mystery. I did, however, participate in Lynn McTaggert’s ‘The Field’ experiments years ago. Long story short – the participant’s persona, other than the intention we were sending/focusing attention on, played a significant role in the end results.
    I just don’t want to go into detail here. Instead, a maritime story:
    In an administration room, before the banker/judge/cross-dresser, for trespassing on a foreign copy-righted code, labeled traffic fine – about $850, I read aloud Art. I Sec. 10 from both the California and US (federal) Consitutions. I then asked the alleged judge how he wanted me to pay, and he said, “We take cash, or credit cards.” I asked very politely, “Would you accept irredeemable privately printed promissory notes for payment of the debt?” He said, “Absolutely not! That is ridiculous.” I pulled out some Federal Reserve Notes, erroneously called U.S. dollars (as there has been no such thing since they shot JFK), and I said,”As I understand your ruling you just made, you do not accept these?” He started drooling like crooked lawyers and judges do when they see doll hairs. “OH. . .well. . ..of course . . .we take those!” “Respectively, your Honor, these are privately printed by the private Federal Reserve Bank, which it says right on the front. They are irredeemable for lawful money, like silver or gold, they are a promise to pay s o m e d a y . So I ask again, how would you like me to pay? “Sit down, I’ll deal with you later.” I know this means when the Administration Room is cleared – at the end of the session. Three hours later when the vessel-in-dry-dock was emptied, he said, “Is there any other business before the court?” I raised my hand, “Well, there is me your Honor.” “Your fine is waived, and I never want to see you again!” And he got up and fled the room. Truth and Justice is there, we have to bring it out of abeyance.

  210. suzy blah blah
    November 4, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    The ultimate reality hidden from our view is Goodness.

    -bullshit.

  211. November 4, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Glad you sailed that landbound ship through Scylla and Charybdis — let’s hope not needful again, especially at such amounts. A traffic court at least allows the judge to do whatever he wants, pretty much, as in this case. I liked your honesty on the Lynn McTaggert experiment also. It’s the only thing that will allow anything like that to find some determination.

    I’ve got your line better on such things, Forest Queen, and would say, nothing precludes what she wants to ‘have in the world’, as far as I know, no more than it does Roger Penrose’s ideas on nearby subjects (he’s a very famous mathematician who has been a work partner for many years with Stephen Hawking).

    Those contemporary spooky-action-at-a-distance experiments show something well beyond understanding is present, and my own private intuition wants to suggest it may be more a question of identity than action. There turn out to actually be some ideas about that point of view, and there’s kind of a wonderful speculative novel that Greg Bear wrote using them called Moving Mars. It’s a particularly feminine-orientated book in a way, which I kind of think you might like, and as all of Greg’s books, has its quiet politics — a little more on the surface of the story in this one. Not much to pay to get it used.

    You got me to thinking this way towards another author I appreciate much, Ursula Le Guin. She has a book of short stories called The Fisherman of the Inland Sea. In it is a flight of a ship that goes from star to star in no time…except it turns out in a very quantumish way that whether it gets there, and what there is like, depends precisely on the crew. Including children. It’s murky, but comes to be seen as a very good story, and a great myth or metaphor for other things than the apparent subject.

    There are a lot of other particularly good stories in that book, such as the one about the university, the woman servants, and the colors of stones — my mother was quite taken with that one. Or the one where people find they can’t leave the dirt and reality of earth behind. The long title story at the end of the book is simply wonderful; at least it really touched and continues to touch me, in more than one way to be sure. I think you’d appreciate it as well, and this is another book that Amazon can find for a low enough price to try it.

    A nice evening to you, Forest Queen, and with all the on-line hubbub, still it will be only 48 hours or so before the next part of a path is settled. Living a bit beyond that path is assumed, isn’t it, thus multiplying freedoms.

  212. November 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Eric or Mitch, can you fix this? I’ve been moderated again, with no links, no obtuse words I think, etc. Three tries, so the original would be fine as you’ll assume.

    Thanks, appreciated.

    [Narration: I don’t know of any “knobs to twiddle” on the moderation. It’s just a matter of pulling stuff out of the box when it gets noticed. Sorry. –Mitch]

  213. Anonymous
    November 4, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    Alternate interpretation: A judge feels sorry for the feebleminded lunatic with the nonsensical arguments, and waives her fine. The lunatic believes her brilliant argument won the day.

  214. November 5, 2012 at 7:40 am

    Tax his land,
    Tax his bed,
    Tax the table,
    At which he’s fed.

    Tax his tractor,
    Tax his mule,
    Teach him taxes
    Are the rule

    Tax his work,
    Tax his pay,
    He works for
    Peanuts anyway!

    Tax his cow,
    Tax his goat,
    Tax his pants,
    Tax his coat.

    Tax his ties,
    Tax his shirt,
    Tax his work,
    Tax his dirt.

    Tax his tobacco,
    Tax his drink,
    Tax him if he
    Tries to think.

    Tax his cigars,
    Tax his beers,
    If he cries
    Tax his tears.

    Tax his car,
    Tax his gas,
    Find other ways
    To tax his ass.

    Tax all he has
    Then let him know
    That you won’t be done
    Til he has no dough

    When he screams and hollers;
    Then tax him some more,
    Tax him till
    He’s good and sore.

    Then tax his coffin,
    Tax his grave,
    Tax the sod in
    Which he’s laid . . .

    Put these words
    Upon his tomb,
    ‘Taxes drove me
    to my doom . . .’

    When he’s gone,
    Do not relax,
    It’s time to apply
    The inheritance tax.

  215. November 5, 2012 at 9:38 am

    Beginning of week #7 of no transportation. Bring weed, whites, and wine . . .hold the whites and wine.

    I have come to see where people are holding onto long accepted beliefs and “understandings” that were merely handed down from others in a long chain of people who came before us. Those people did the very same thing as us without EVER questioning the TRUTH about those beliefs and “understandings.” If the case where those things we’ve received were really TRUE . . . then, no harm. But if those things turned out to be FALSE from the time the first one of us began handing them down, then that is a recipe for DISASTER.

    Since corporation fictions can’t contract with living souls, but only other corporation fictions . . . where isn’t the proof? It isn’t a theory when you think you are signing a check on a solid line, when taking a closer look, it states YOU are the agent for a corporation fiction – OOPS!

  216. November 5, 2012 at 9:49 am

    “Beginning of week #7 of no transportation. Bring weed, whites, and wine . . .hold the whites and wine.”

    Don’t worry about studies showing pot’s effect on growing brains, kiddies. Just look at FQ. She can find words inside other words and everything.

  217. November 5, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Mitch,

    “Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt

  218. November 5, 2012 at 10:18 am

    deLIEtful

  219. suzy blah blah
    November 5, 2012 at 10:44 am

    I have come to see where people are holding onto long accepted beliefs and “understandings” that were merely handed down from others in a long chain of people who came before us. Those people did the very same thing as us without EVER questioning the TRUTH about those beliefs and “understandings.”

    -that applies to the quote from Narr’s link: “The ultimate reality hidden from our view is Goodness”. Which refers to Plato’s cave, and his invention of Pure Spirit and the Good in Itself. A lie handed down in a long chain of dogma.

  220. Anonymous
    November 5, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    We get it: Taxes exist, and you don’t like them.

    Meanwhile, taxes on the wealthiest Americans are at their lowest in modern history. Which leaves people with lower incomes, and our children and grandchildren, to pick up more of the tab.

    Taxes are necessary to fund important infrastructure, educational, and social needs. Instead of mindlessly ranting about taxes in general, or posting childish rhymes, why not concentrate on advocating for the wealthy to pay their fair share, and for our government to cut spending in specific wasteful and/or counterproductive areas (such as bloated military spending, subsidies to Big Oil, etc.)?

  221. November 5, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    [Narration: I don’t know of any “knobs to twiddle” on the moderation. It’s just a matter of pulling stuff out of the box when it gets noticed. Sorry. –Mitch]

    Mitch, thanks, not a problem, and the original is there now, appreciated.

    I may have had an insight on what it is doing in trying to be so clever. There’s a kind of spam that’s surrounded by random words out of a dictionary. So if you use too many words, or ones it doesn’t think you ought to know, etc., it’s the clink for you. A theory, anyway.

    Forest Queen can put it with the rest of hers which are angry with machines, while i will increase my preference for stories, just as I enjoy every it time she makes one.

    Looking at all the grump-grousing around here, must be a Monday morning. In fact I believe I hear strains of Mama Cass. The DJs of Humboldt loved to play it, once upon-a-time. Or it might just be hubbub from some Steinbeck i’m reading again, on coastal life.

  222. November 5, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    Re: taxes — I’ve always liked this one. Used to play from Revolver when I was a DJ, and get manager phone calls. Only the approved list, you know..

  223. Mitch
    November 5, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Narration,

    I got moderated myself when I tried a comment on Eric’s thread this morning. We can only moderate/approve on threads we initiate. It was a small comment, including no links or video, and the saltiest word was “thug.” By all means, if you keep gathering clues, please keep putting them out there.

    Grump-grousing. Yeah. Oh well.

  224. November 5, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    suzy blah, blah,
    You can’t sit on the fence of the plantation claiming zero.

    Anonymous,
    “”We”” (?) get it.” One only has the rights that one can assert. Why don’t I put my energy towards “advocate for the wealthy . . .?” is it your opinion that I should vote for the next dictator, write and make telephone calls to the mindless, and go to meetings of the criminals and thieves, perhaps protest? – been there, done that. And . . . I realize that I only have control of myself. What I desire to get across is a mixture of information and insight, prose and poetry, science and mysticism (with MUCH help from Narration), contrasting tones and voices – part mythology, part medicine. These all have to be included. Some will read it, and we can discuss – I’m wide open to others’ experiences. My experiences have been mostly in ‘courts,’ dealing with the uninformed (cops), and researching to the inth regarding taxation.
    This is not about who is right and who is wrong. Sharing our truth, as we live it – what could be more important for us? We will evolve only as our capacity to communicate peacefully evolves.
    The tax rhyme is from Charley Reese’s final column: 545 v 300,000,000 People.
    He’s retiring from being a journalist after 49 years.

    Delightful

  225. suzy blah blah
    November 5, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    What I desire to get across is a mixture of information and insight, prose and poetry, science and mysticism (with MUCH help from Narration), contrasting tones and voices – part mythology, part medicine.

    -” she’s a poet, she’s a preacher, she’s a problem when she’s stoned. she’s a walking contradiction partly truth and partly fiction taking every wrong direction on her lonely way back home.”
    Kris Kristofferson –(according to David Icke Kris is a shape-shifting reptilian)

    “(Icke) set out a moral and political worldview that combined New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of totalitarian trends in the modern world. At the heart of his theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

  226. tra
    November 5, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Kristofferson strikes me as more of an amphibian than a reptillian.

    And Icke…more of a marsupial, perhaps?

  227. suzy blah blah
    November 5, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    -here’s Boxcar Willy doing a nice little apocalyptical tune. I think the Zombies may have covered it over in England, I don’t know. I’m gonna google Zombies/Queen Elizebeth and see if suzy can find out what’s really real:

  228. November 6, 2012 at 8:36 am

    suzy blah, blah,
    Ya might want to pull your head out of the Matrix long enough to find that, what is real ain’t in the Matrix. The greatest distance we have to cover is within us. To keep looking for answers outside of ourselves, when it is “we” who have the solutions, seems silly to me. We are timeless and of a greater power.

    Imagine a world where everyone has reached the capacity to freely embrace difference without judgment.

  229. November 6, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Hi suzy. Re: goodness, Plato, caves, etc..

    Just speaking personally, the way I took the quote pulled out of that essay was as one aging philosopher doing another a kindness, just for a moment. ‘Goodness’ knows they find few of those in the world most seem to want to inhabit, rather than one which realizes Wittgenstein was wise.

    I think Freeman Dyson wants to say that Leslie had the insight to see Plato’s idealisms as a story he just constructed, rather than the rigid (and I agree, dangerous and unpleasant) absolutism truths they are presented as. “Fantasy comes to the rescue when logic fails”, and “…based on imagination, not on logic.”

    I’ve always had a pretty visceral reaction against Plato as he presents himself, which is certainly not with this contemporary deconstructionist wisdom of view. I do think the cave metaphor can be one of his that is useful, at least for high school level to help begin understanding that all is not ‘clearly as it may seem’ in a world.

    What about goodness? It could indeed be the dogmatic failing of seeing the world as separated, as only black and white. Somehow I was instead drawn towards the story from Kabbalah that I really liked as Chaim Potok told it in a novel, the one where there was some kind of error that occurred when Jahweh was setting aside what there was, so that the present universe could be constructed. This what-there-was was put in jars, and the jars cracked, spilling good and not-good all mixed together, throughout the new construction.

    The idea that the ‘mensch’, the decent person, would then be on the lookout for the shinier parts, and thus retrieve and polish them up for others seemed a nice enough one, in sense of a day-to-day view on life’s journey.

    This simplicity still has the dangers, though, and maybe our growth in thought, of which I think there is some, would be ever so interested in all those shadows-and-light, chiaroscuro, and even greyer mists that are ever present wherever the jars’ contents flow, as refreshing and freeing as can be the Pacific fog on a certain coast, and as it gathers in the high boughs of the tall trees.

    Are there any of those habitually over-reaching Greeks, proclaiming to their small demos to indicate their wealth was right, that I could like? Well, there’s Heraclitus, who walked away from any of that, and who said as you’ll know well of that Eel somewhere beside your doorstep, winding its way from summer trickles to miles-wide torrents in winter floods, that rivers can indeed never be walked in the same way twice.

    This is why, in a knit-work of my own influences, that I find I simply delight when you follow your own rivers as they will flow, suzy. It’s in those avenues where the waves turn and then run, showing up as they do all manner of flashes in beauty, set free where they don’t have to be always joined up.

    I think you have a real talent there, wherever other ways you like to do work, and I continue to notice how other persons show they like it. It’s also something to manage, as you know (suzy knows herself), and that’s what artists, and those who don’t use that name, do.

  230. November 6, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    To Narration,
    Backing up a day or two, you mentioned that if I had experienced a loss of creature comforts; had lost all of what I knew as support in this lifetime. In remembering, quite vividly, a one-time-only experience – in an Administration Room – where else? I was being ‘judged’ – such a timeless stage setting for such an occurrence. All of my friends kept assuring me that “No one will find you guilty.” This was for ‘sales,’ AGAIN. I was at the time In Pro Per, a joke of a position to assume. Nevertheless I knew enough for the times to ‘commit’ (by choice) to 90 days instead of the seven years being offered. I should back up here – ‘judge’ number one (who was wearing an ankle bracelet) thought that I was going to admit my prior. I told him that I had paid my debt to society and the balance on that account was zero.
    With only myself, a Bailiff, and Judge number four in the room, the Judge said these condemning words: “Take her into custody immediately. She is a flight risk.” At that moment in time ‘ some thing’ fell away from me. It was so real. I could feel it exiting my body, accompanied by a sudden drop in temperature, from my head to my toes – drained.
    All safety nets removed, all that I was familiar with – gone. Even though this depth of being forsaken was upon me, was I fearful? No. Some years before I realized that I didn’t have fear – which is usually packaged as False Evidence Appearing Real. I went to peace – after all, I placed myself in this position. I went into third-party observer . . . witnessing myself witnessing. Sort of like, lets see if the California Taxpayers are getting their moneys worth, lol.

    I’ll stop here, thank God, thank Allah, thank Buddha, thank Jesus. Nothing like sharing personal maritime/admiralty experiences where anybody can watch on the WWW.

    “Life is just a ride.” Bill Hicks

  231. suzy blah blah
    November 6, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    -FQ, You may have, “went to peace”, but suzy saw The Light. And so i say, get off your inert ass and shake like jelly, get down on the floor and crawl on your belly -do the Reptile Boogie!

    It’s also something to manage, as you know (suzy knows herself), and that’s what artists, and those who don’t use that name, do.

    -no Narr, that’s what bureaucrats do. Once again suzy is disgusted by your ethics.

  232. November 6, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    suzy, something lost in the translation here. Bureaucrats do what?

    By the way, I’m about as far as you will ever find from a bureaucrat.

    Oh, I see. From your quote, which tends to fade. Manage. Well, I am about as far from a manager as you’ll find, also, and so are my friends who do art, or don’t say so, but do. Somehow, I don’t think you’re quite taking the moment to listen. Maybe a better word for the one you arise to is ‘articulate’. And yes, there’s a lot of play in that one.

    Are we not supposed to like you, is that a part of the problem? Tough sell…even as you try to show a young girl’s scabs on your knees.

    Most likely to get a ‘yuck, but let’s move on’, from anyone you’d care to know yourself.

  233. November 6, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Forest Queen, I kind of thought there might be a story something like that in the background.

    Good on you for telling it, not so unusual as it may seem, and in all ways then you have the freedoms. Each of your choice.

    I’ve travelled and moved many ways in the world; as even that spelling which just slipped out shows. So often in any place, the best surprises you in just a bit of a walk down the road, when you take that.

    Any other method, it would go by too fast.

  234. Mitch
    November 6, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Narration,

    Regarding your comment about Platonists and Materialists (way back at #189), I’ve always found “In the beginning was the word” to be one of the more interesting bible phrases.

    Logos, at least according to my personal God (Wikipedia), is this incredibly fascinating constellation of meanings.

    Originally a word meaning “a ground”, “a plea”, “an opinion”, “an expectation”, “word,” “speech,” “account,” “reason,”[1][2] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.[3]”

    And then lo and behold, in the years before Jesus it turns into a sort of divinity:

    Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[27] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo “the first-born of God.”[27] Philo also wrote that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated.”[28]

    Who says science and religion need to be at odds? In the beginning were the laws of nature, and the rest has followed. I’m sure there are plenty of laws of nature that science has not yet discovered; maybe goodness is one of them, or the one at the center.

  235. Mitch
    November 6, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Also, isn’t pretty much every force “spooky action at a distance”? We’re just more familiar with some than with others — we’re no longer amazed, as we should be, that gravity happens, or that walls stop us.

  236. suzy blah blah
    November 6, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    -Narr, ideals are mere fantasy. But love can be real if you don’t know the person too well.

  237. November 6, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Hi Mitch. Back to front, since back is easier, the distinction with ‘spooky action’ is that it takes place in no discernable time — at last attempt to measure which it was really happening, at minimum 30,000 times the speed of light. Or, as far as we can know, instantaneous. You have to love methodical Swiss scientists to draw such a point.

    We don’t understand the light-speed things (light, radio/tv/microwaves, etc.) too well either. But when you can touch one ‘entangled’ particle, and the other one in the entanglement, but far away, changes apparently at just the same time, this is a different game. It does appear to happen, and the potential early recognized is what bugged Albert.

    Philo, I didn’t know about, and your discussion is interesting, thanks. Reading a little more about him, but particularly with your lines, then there’s more understanding of how Logos got so wrapped in things, especially considering the nature of enough Jewish people I have known, which is also front and center if you really think about the history. Probably it really has acted as that bridge or glue between tendencies. A bit fragile always, and where we are needing more than ever not exactly to see thing glued in their relations together, would feel.

    I think it’s that long time wild renegade in me, I fear (said in a smiling way) pretty close to that in suzy, which just turns to the side as soon as logic is mentioned, though, more personally speaking. Not that we don’t depend on it every day; but while Philo may see logic/Logos as a translator, it’s perhaps the size of things that logical argumentation typically wants to see tied down which makes it be sensed so automatically as a prison. Besides the sense of dullness that pervades any time an only logical argument may succeed. I think there’s a great instinct to have more than this, and that this is equally a root of the creative in each one of us, as persons.

    Quantum logic in fact holds that material things, at least quite small ones, can be in more than one state (position, speed, momentum, etc. and also wierd things like ‘spin) at a time, and that’s why it attracts persons when they are wanting an anchor for their sense, good sense I would feel, that matters are actually multiple in the world.

    Multiple would tend towards freedom, and also towards our better senses of ourselves. Who, after all has many actually singular opinions, unless driven into some dark decision or defense of the kinds in politics? We better decide when we need to, to take a tack, but continue keeping well in mind that there are always many others.

    It doesn’t mean moral equivalency, but does mean that many more than one way can be moral, and that anything that tries to be tied down too tightly or for more than a moment’s expression is likely headed for not being too moral.

    I think I’ve mentioned that ‘straightforward’ Chinese speech, at a level of intensity, can be quite multiple in its senses of a great world always present while drawn into a single sentence, just as the older Taoist field of view would see this.

    Hope I’m not being obscure here, Mitch — just drawn more into a more personal self here, after too many days of explaining. Thanks again for your entry here.

    Here’s a smidgen from a lyric of some talented and not too enclosed young, Mandolin Orange:

    Ease my mind and climb into my bed
    may you find no rest here
    for I am but a boy, brought to bring you joy
    and you to bring the same to me…I fear

    A multiplying line, and some explication of ‘I fear’…always performed with some variant of a singer’s manner of momentarily shift, each new time, of their senses in a lyric, and in its world.

  238. November 6, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    suzy, that is very clever, and definitely a little too true…;)

    I think it can become more real, but this is very much an amazing project. There’s something about careful distancing in it, while not in other ways, which I have never quite been able to have adequately happen, except perhaps on a page. Though very nice things have happened.

    Maybe I have seen it though, and again, through masterful navigation and appreciation of illusions, even if the persons didn’t know they were masterful at all.

  239. suzy blah blah
    November 7, 2012 at 6:15 am

    Philo also wrote that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated

    -interesting because everything isn’t holding together. I think Yeats said, “The center no longer holds … The falcon no longer hears the falconer.” Paraphrasing, but my idea is that –things are separated. Logos can’t hold together what isn’t together. But Eros, is about putting things (back) together, ie relating. And here we are today a century after Yeats, with a satiation of “falconers” all telling us different things. How do they relate? How do we relate? How do the different aspects of yourself, the different hats you wear, relate? Where is/are the center(s)? where is the circumference? That’s Eros, making a tapestry.

  240. November 7, 2012 at 10:37 am

    Knowing that everything in the Universe is connected, the falcon flew to it’s freedom, thus escaping the falconer’s assumed ownership. Uni -one, verse -sound.

    All life forms must, by the Nature of their existence, possess sovereignty over their own being, and afford that same sovereignty to all other life forms.

    “When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
    Wayne Dyer, speaking on quantum physics.

  241. November 7, 2012 at 11:00 am

    Are you two (Suzy & Forest Queen) getting things figured out – yet?
    Forest Queen says, “All life forms must, by the Nature of their existence, possess sovereignty over their own being, and afford that same sovereignty to all other life forms.” Is this not the way of or to peace?

    Your quote from Dyer prompts the question(s), what about the “observer effect” and it’s effect on Universe? Who are the “Observers”? What do they have to do with reality and “sovereignty,” if anything?

  242. November 7, 2012 at 11:09 am

  243. suzy blah blah
    November 7, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Knowing that everything in the Universe is connected, the falcon flew to it’s freedom, thus escaping the falconer’s assumed ownership.

    -and they lived happily ever after.

  244. suzy blah blah
    November 7, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

    -ah, so rose tinted glasses really work!

  245. November 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Joe Blow,
    Figured it out? Hardly. All any one of us ever has is a partial view of the whole. Which is why the necessity of sharing our experiences – to bring more and more of the whole into focus for us all.
    Yes, sovereignty is the way of, or to, peace. It’s not an event. It’s a lifestyle. A way of life.

    We must become deeply aware of the constant interactive relationship between consciousness and energy. Basically, we are participants, not observers. However, when we consciously choose to become an observer – witnessing ourself witnessing – then we empower ourselves in effecting our desired results for reality, and, coupled with being sovereign, knowing who you are, brings fruition. It will require that we ‘step-up-to-the-plate.’
    If you’re not living on the edge, you’re taking up too much space.

    Change the way we look at things . . .When I see the ‘court’ for what it is – a foreign vessel in dry dock, and that the judge is an actor (FRCP 44.1), and the only thing happening is I’m supposed to assume the role of the debtor – ah NO. The clerk of the court appoints the judge as trustee, and the persecutor as the executor when they create the temporary trust with the dock et #. Then they pull the ‘bait and switch’ making the defendant-in-error, the trustee by admitting they are the fiction (The ALL CAPS NAME on the cesti que trust.) NEVER give in to jurisdiction. Attack the jurisdiction, not their irrelevant claims. That’s witnessing as an observer.

  246. November 7, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    I’ve been accused before of wearing rose colored glasses. They help. Remember the 3-D glasses to view certain movies? It’s like that to me . . . tones down the harshness, while bringing the lies, the deceit, the fiction, into view. Keep your focus on the man behind the curtain.

  247. suzy blah blah
    November 7, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    -did you see the movie They Live? The hero gets hold of these dark glasses that let him see certain people as aliens who look kinda like reptile humanoids. LOL! The glasses also let him see billboards as subliminal messages like, “buy”, “submit”, etc. … I fell asleep through part of it but i think in the end they bomb, or stick a spear through, this open computer/eye on top of a tower, or tall building, or pyramid, or something, to stop the evil shenanigans. Kinda violent as i recall. If suzy was there i would’ve obtained some red shoes and just clicked ’em. It would be awesome cuz the movie is in black and white. Red shoes in a black and white flick –super tastefully aesthetically awesome. Or maybe pink. But of course that wouldn’t have had the flashy sparks and smoke and fires and special effects, and/or the moral that the bad guys lose.

  248. November 7, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    I didn’t see They Live, sounds interesting though. Live rock-n-roll has always been my favorite form of entertainment, and plays of course. Not to say that good ol love stories, and comedy aren’t great. I’m usually ready to exit if I’m not learning something. I find it entertaining to go into ‘court rooms’ – the last one I went to was where 3# of MJ was the respondent! How absurd is that?

  249. November 7, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    [other voices, resting, this day…]

  250. November 9, 2012 at 12:09 am

    Looking pretty quiet in here, and maybe just the time for that. Words need to recover.

    The three musics above should have been together, and I’ve put a further three here so that they are. Yes, both sets are in connection with something in the discussion, but maybe you can just enjoy them. Everything does not always need to be told, does it, and these are for each of you who’s come over here.

    In the last which closes, a film lets you meet the musicians, where they are, and hear two songs, which I promise are worth it.

  251. November 9, 2012 at 9:39 am

    I’ll post this link, for those of you who have “come in here.” IMHO, it is $6.95 well spent. Takes 3-4 weeks for delivery. If I was savvy enough to upload it, I would.
    http://www.thekillshot.com/

  252. November 9, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Went back and was re-reading the fine posts on this blog. Please permit me, if I may, to re-word my arrogant post #182/Nov.2, regarding the 3%. We all have our (minuscule) part to do – bring to the forefront our own experiences and current realities. Me, myself, I, couldn’t exist in any type of a pleasant manner if it weren’t for the musicians, artists, writers/authors, bakers,[mechanic repair guys], the oh-so-extraordinare cooks, and farmers . . you know, the working people of Humboldt County. Maybe I’m prejudice. But I think that most would agree that we’ve got the cream-of-the-crop. Play on.

  253. November 9, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Hi Forest Queen — I went back and read #182 also. Not so bad, really, I think, though I like your re-statement here.

    I think you are actually saying now just what you want to also with regards to that 3% or whatever the number is.

    For me the key is to take the hierarchy out of it. Each of us is good at some things — fine, we can have a role in them, if wanting to do that at a time, and to take the responsibility. A person really good at structuring practical ideas is in their way just as much an artist as the ones we call so, and most would like them to use their talent so that practical things don’t get out of whack, so we have bread on the table with the rest of the things. Or more, a lot more, for other persons where they themselves are happiest.

    One of those favorite authors of mine called something like this ‘thick planning’, and it’s in fact one of the sidelights of that Fisherman story above. A bit in the vein of Ernest Callenbach and his Ecotopia, though with a little more recognition that the better things don’t really come out of committees, present-day ‘managing’, or any other arrangement that heads off the capability, sight, and own activity of individuals.

  254. November 9, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    …anyway, I liked that you looked again, as one person here, anyway ;)

  255. November 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Good evening Narration,
    Your post prompts me to post the following:
    . . .it behoves us to remember, that men can never escape being governed. Either they must govern themselves or they must submit to being governed by others. If from lawlessness or fickleness, from folly or self-indulgence, they refuse to govern themselves, then most assuredly in the end they will have to be governed from the outside.
    Theodore Roosevelt: Jamestown Exposition April 26, 1927.

    And the following in from Ireland today:
    “They” say . . whomever “they” are; that “you should never take the law into your own hands.” We disagree with “they” or “them.” We say, You should always take the law into your own hands . . . and that way, you will be guaranteed that Justice will not only be seen to be done, more than likely, and in reality, justice will actually be done, and you will be the better and happier for it.

    It behoves us all to Govern ourselves, otherwise those that would and do assume to govern us, and control us, will do so, and will ultimately, with the wrath of Kahn.

    Taking the law into your own hands, does not mean that you will be lawless, fickle, stupid or self-indulgent. That is not the natural order of things, and despite what “they” would have you believe, it’s NOT in the nature of men, women, or their children, to be of that said persuasion.

    Babies/People are NOT born with a wanton or inherent need for disorder, chaos or hate. That idea is anathema. The very opposite is true. Babies/People are born of and from love, and evolve and grow fluently and rapidly to crave and respond constructively, to love and affection.

    On the other hand, current societal constructs are divisive, destructive and willfully chaotic by design. The State, via the puppet Government of the day, invoke and willfully impose a strict indoctrination of measures and controls on the People that is both subtle and overt in equal measure, from the cradle to the grave.

    A programme of “Divide and Conquer” is invoked at every possible and conceivable level. Competition is actively promoted and encouraged as a means to separate and isolate the People and to divide families and communities.

    All that aside, there is a positive perspective to all this pain and suffering that is being perpetuated upon the People by the State. There is only so far any group of People can be pushed. For the People of this Island, in the past, they have been pushed really far. They have historically been pushed beyond the point of starvation, to death and forced migration. Ignorance and poverty have precluded our ancestors from any form of a cohesive individual or collective resistance. That does not apply today!

  256. November 10, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    This year we will reach the “tipping point.” We are conscious of the fact that the number of People now standing up for themselves as Lay Litigants in the Courts has and is steadily growing. Our numbers have grown from 1% in 2009 to 20% + thus far this year. That means that less Solicitors, Barristers and Liars are getting paid, and significantly more time is used up by the Courts by Lay Litigants, which in turn reduces the turnaround time of the Courts business.
    The Court is a business, and like any business, it needs to turn and churn so many customers/cases every day, and then shake them down for all they are worth. In court eb\veryone wins; the Solicitors win, the Barristers win, the Court wins, and the man or woman that is acting as the defendant ALWAYS loses. The Court finds it extremely difficult to “Shake Down” Lay Litigants. Especially Lay Litigants that are educating themselves, in terms of knowing and learning the Courts own Rules and Orders.

    To reach the “tipping point” and stop the Courts from operating and acting for the purposes of raping and pillaging the People for the State and the financial institutions, will not require 51% of the People within the Courts to go in as Lay Litigants. The tipping point will come much sooner than that, and it can be counted in the hundreds. ONE MAN or WOMAN alone can tie up any Court for a whole day, with just a little knowledge and some confidence. If there are 30 Courts running per day, five days a week . . .it would require 150 People per week to go in and present their case as Lay Litigants. For four consecutive weeks we would require 600 People in total to clog up the whole High Court Machine or System in just one short month. That would literally represents tens of millions in lost revenue to the Barristers, the Law Society, the BAR Council, Court Services and the State. As they say, “Money talks and bullshit walks.

    The truth is the Judges and Barristers fear the People, whom they are out numbered by, will in reality become educated in the game that is called “the Law.” Judges are showing signs of weakness, as more and more Lay Litigants are sacking Solicitors, taking them off the record, and opting to go face to face, and head on opposing the Barristers. Every day another Lay Litigant demands FULL PLENARY hearing. Every day another Lay Litigant accuses a Judge of “Rushing Judgment.” Every day another Lay Litigant demands an Adjournment in order to have time to build a defense. Every day another Lay Litigant advocates Human Rights and Contractual challenges against those that would and do, wrongly assume authority, and would and do assume wrongly to Govern and Determine for People, the Men and Wo,en like you and me.
    It boils down to this: You can be Governed or You can Self-Govern. this is the basic choice for us all.

  257. November 10, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    This year we will reach the “tipping point.” We are conscious of the fact that the number of People now standing up for themselves as Lay Litigants in the Courts has and is steadily growing. Our numbers have grown from 1% in 2009 to 20% + thus far this year. That means that less Solicitors, Barristers and Liars are getting paid, and significantly more time is used up by the Courts by Lay Litigants, which in turn reduces the turnaround time of the Courts business.
    The Court is a business, and like any business, it needs to turn and churn so many customers/cases every day, and then shake them down for all they are worth. In court eb\veryone wins; the Solicitors win, the Barristers win, the Court wins, and the man or woman that is acting as the defendant ALWAYS loses. The Court finds it extremely difficult to “Shake Down” Lay Litigants. Especially Lay Litigants that are educating themselves, in terms of knowing and learning the Courts own Rules and Orders.

    To reach the “tipping point” and stop the Courts from operating and acting for the purposes of raping and pillaging the People for the State and the financial institutions, will not require 51% of the People within the Courts to go in as Lay Litigants. The tipping point will come much sooner than that, and it can be counted in the hundreds. ONE MAN or WOMAN alone can tie up any Court for a whole day, with just a little knowledge and some confidence. If there are 30 Courts running per day, five days a week . . .it would require 150 People per week to go in and present their case as Lay Litigants. For four consecutive weeks we would require 600 People in total to clog up the whole High Court Machine or System in just one short month. That would literally represents tens of millions in lost revenue to the Barristers, the Law Society, the BAR Council, Court Services and the State. As they say, “Money talks and bullshit walks.

    The truth is the Judges and Barristers fear the People, whom they are out numbered by, will in reality become educated in the game that is called “the Law.” Judges are showing signs of weakness, as more and more Lay Litigants are sacking Solicitors, taking them off the record, and opting to go face to face, and head on opposing the Barristers. Every day another Lay Litigant demands FULL PLENARY hearing. Every day another Lay Litigant accuses a Judge of “Rushing Judgment.” Every day another Lay Litigant demands an Adjournment in order to have time to build a defense. Every day another Lay Litigant advocates Human Rights and Contractual challenges against those that would and do, wrongly assume authority, and would and do assume wrongly to Govern and Determine for People, the Men and Women like you and me.
    It boils down to this: You can be Governed or You can Self-Govern. this is the basic choice for us all.

  258. November 11, 2012 at 8:25 am

    Sorry or the double post . . . dial-up ya know.

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