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Arctic ice

denialFrom Nature:

A global team of researchers has come up with the ‘most accurate estimate’ yet for melting of the polar ice sheets, ending decades of uncertainty about whether the sheets will melt further or actually gain mass in the face of climate change.

The ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are melting at an ever-quickening pace. Since 1992, they have contributed 11 millimetres — or one-fifth — of the total global sea-level rise, say researchers. The two polar regions are now losing mass three times faster than they were 20 years ago, with Greenland alone now shedding ice at about five times the rate observed in the early 1990s. (emphasis added)

This latest estimate1, published this week in Science, draws on up to 32 years of ice-sheet simulations and 20 years of satellite data.

  1. HUUFC
    November 30, 2012 at 10:19 am

    So when is the ocean level going to start rising?

  2. A-Nony-Mouse
    November 30, 2012 at 10:39 am

    And what will the 1%ers put in their drinks when all the ice is gone?

  3. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 10:49 am

    We should try to get a local theater to play “Chasing Ice.” The closest available viewing at this point is San Rafael and I can’t see driving that far to see a video about climate change.

    http://www.chasingice.com/see-the-film/bring-it-to-my-local-theater/

  4. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Here you go, Huffy: http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/critical-issues-sea-level-rise/

    Short answer, it has been rising at an increasing rate since 1900 and modest estimates are it will rise by 2.5 to 6.5 feet by 2100 and, if the Greenland ice pack melts, a 23 foot increase, enough to drown LA.

  5. November 30, 2012 at 11:05 am

    I wonder if Mars’ southern ice cap is still melting?
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

  6. November 30, 2012 at 11:06 am

    HUUFC :
    So when is the ocean level going to start rising?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/368892.stm

    Islands disappear under rising seas

    Rising waters threaten small island states

    By Environment Correspondent Alex Kirby
    Two South Pacific islands have disappeared beneath the waves, as climate change raises sea levels to new heights.

    They are Tebua Tarawa and Abanuea – which ironically means “the beach which is long-lasting” – in the island state of Kiribati.

    Neither island was inhabited, though Tebua Tarawa was used by fishermen.

    Swamped by the sea

    The news is reported in the Independent on Sunday newspaper, which says predictions of the danger are coming true more quickly than anyone had expected.

    The South Pacific Regional Environment Programme (SPREP) says other islands are at risk, both in Kiribati and in nearby Tuvalu.

    It says most of the coastline of the 29 atolls of the Marshall Islands is suffering erosion.

    On one, second world war graves are being washed away.

    Pressure on people

    All three island groups have experienced severe flooding by storms and high tides, and populated islands are now being affected.

    And even where the seawater is not a direct threat, livelihoods are being damaged as salt poisons the soil.

    The small island states of the world contribute only 0.6% of all global warming pollution, but they are suffering disproportionately.

    They cannot afford to protect themselves. To build a temporary sea wall for one Marshall Island atoll would cost $100 million, more than twice the wealth the country produces annually.

    Warm water problems

    In the Indian Ocean, the beaches of a third of the 200 inhabited islands of the Maldives are being swept away.

    President Gayoom of the Maldives says: “Sea-level rise is not a fashionable scientific hypothesis. It is a fact”.

    More frequent storms will add to the chaos
    The rise in levels is happening because water expands as it warms up. Coastal areas of countries like the USA, China and Bangladesh are also threatened.

    Although considerable uncertainty still surrounds the probable impact of global warming, the best estimate is that sea levels will rise by about half a metre over the next century.

    But the process is unlikely to stop then, because the rise in levels observed today is caused by warming that happened decades ago.

    Today’s warming, which is more serious, will cause levels to rise higher when it eventually makes its impact felt.

  7. Just Watchin
    November 30, 2012 at 11:56 am

    I just have to ask…….if the ice melt in Greenland and Antartica has caused one-fifth of the sea level rise, where has the othe four-fifths come from?

  8. November 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    der der der der derrr…..

    “The rise in levels is happening because water expands as it warms up.”

    ^^^^^^^^^

  9. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    And land subsidence, Eurekawork.

    “As global temperatures rise and land based ice melts, oceans expand. As ocean volume expands, sea level rises globally. This is known as eustatic sea-level rise. Relative sea-level rise is the combination of eustatic rise in sea level and land movement * and is unique for each location. The combination of the two processes determines the rate of submergence in each coastal area.”

    *subsidence

    http://gallery.usgs.gov/videos/347#.ULkU-eQ1mSo

  10. Santa Plaus
    November 30, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    You gotta wonder how stupid a person can be and still be smart enough to get on the internet.

    I think its a small window.

  11. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Apparently it’s too small to do any research on the internet, SP.

  12. November 30, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    eurekaworker :
    der der der der derrr…..
    “The rise in levels is happening because water expands as it warms up.”
    ^^^^^^^^^

    Unlikely. Even if it did it wouldn’t account for the other 4/5 of the rise. Just try that old thing with the glass of water full of ice cubes. When the ice cubes melt, the water level doesn’t change.

  13. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    OH FRED! Try adding ice cubes to an already full glass, Fred. And then heat it up.

  14. November 30, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Even if that worked as you suggest, you’re heating it way more than ocean water is being heated. It still wouldn’t account for the 4/5.

  15. Just Watchin
    November 30, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Fred….don’t you realize that if a tree hugger gets something published in a magazine, it HAS to be true!
    I asked the four-fifths question earlier, just to see if the melting polar ice caps and glaciers would get a mention, but got sediment settling as a reason instead.

  16. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Fred, maybe if you think about it as a full swimming pool with piles of ice cubes sliding into it for decades, melting and flooding your yard, you might get it. Even without the water expanding due to global warming, the sea level has to rise. Where is the additional water going to go?

  17. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Subsidence isn’t sediment settling, it is land sinking. I’m sure no one thought there was a need to point out that Greenland and the Arctic aren’t the only places which are losing ice mass at an alarming rate, but apparently that was too optimistic about your knowledge of the subject.

  18. Just Watchin
    November 30, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    The original question was where does the other four fifths coms from

  19. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    From other places where the ice is melting, JW. If Greenland’s ice pack melts, no matter what happens elsewhere, sea levels will rise over 20 feet. If all the ice melted it would be over 200 feet. Aren’t you allowed to do any research for yourself?

  20. Thorstein Veblen
    November 30, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Um, arctic, perhaps? Glaciers?

  21. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    You would think someone living in Florida would have enough of an interest in sea level rise to try to inform himself.

  22. Just Watchin
    November 30, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    You must really be hittin the good stuff PJ. Just remember what happened the last time.

  23. Fat Checker
    November 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    November 25, 2012 at 5:58 am | #14 Just Watchin

    Quote

    Anonymous……I may be a Republican, but my opinions are not always with the party line. For example, I’m O.K. with abortion. As a matter of fact, I believe abortion should be mandatory for pregnant women with two or more children who are collecting any form of welfare.

    November 28, 2012 at 9:26 am | #133 Just Watchin

    Quote

    My good friend Shudder Bug got me to thinking, and I’ve changed my position on forced abortions for welfare women. Here it is: A woman collecting welfare and having her second (or more) child should have thier tubes tied during the birthing procedure. Once she has been “welfare free” for a period of two consecutive years, the procedure could be reversed, at the government’s expense, and she could have another child. However, if she is back on welfare at the birth of her third child, tubes are tied again, and she must be welfare free for three years. No infants are killed, and the baby factories may think twice before spreadin them without protection!!

  24. Just Watchin
    November 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    And the Legend lives on!!!! Thank you Factless.

  25. Plain Jane
    November 30, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    And again when confronted by facts he turns trollish. I give up.

  26. November 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Quickdraw McGoogle sends this, from: Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, online at:

    http://www.acrim.com/%5C/Reference%20Files/CLIMATECHANGE%202001%20-%20The%20Scientific%20Basis.pdf

    Note that the report is 11 years old and relies on data even older than that. Things are worse than the report theorized back then.

    Firstly, as ocean water warms, it expands. On the basis of observations of ocean temperatures and model results, thermal expansion is believed to be one of the major contributors to historical sea level changes. Further, thermal expansion is expected to contribute the largest component to sea level rise over the next hundred years. Deep ocean temperatures change only slowly; therefore, thermal expansion would continue for many
    centuries even if the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases were to stabilise.

    and

    F.9 Projections of Future Changes in Sea Level

    Projections of global average sea level rise from 1990 to 2100, using a range of AOGCMs following the IS92a scenario (including the direct effect of sulphate aerosol emissions), lie in the range 0.11 to 0.77 m. This range reflects the systematic uncertainty of modelling. The main contributions to this sea level rise are:
    ● a thermal expansion of 0.11 to 0.43 m, accelerating through the 21st century;
    ● a glacier contribution of 0.01 to 0.23 m;
    ● a Greenland contribution of −0.02 to 0.09 m; and
    ● an Antarctic contribution of −0.17 to +0.02 m.
    Also included in the computation of the total change are smaller contributions from thawing of permafrost, deposition of sediment, and the ongoing contributions from ice sheets as a result of climate change since the Last Glacial Maximum…

  27. Anonymous
    November 30, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    Just Watchin=troll. Please disregard all comments.

  28. Inconvenient truth
    November 30, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    When water freezes it expands. test it by filling a bottle and putting it in your freezer. Conversely, when it melts it takes up less volume. So icebergs melting would actually lower the sea level.

  29. Hu-man
    November 30, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    All icebergs melt, genuis.

    The problem is the ice that is melting around the world, on Greenlands glaciers, the Alps, the Himalayas and in Antarctica is not sea ice, it is iice that is on land.

    Ignorance is inconvenient too, when we all share the same planet.

  30. Anonymous
    November 30, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    There’s always a way to harvest an iceberg. We just start buying up pieces of ice property for consumption. It’s the cleanest drinking water on earth! You can make a good living as an iceberg hunter.

  31. November 30, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    Apologies, I can’t post on ‘Quick Notes’ – it won’t load – so, figured this was a better spot than ‘My First World (?) Problem’- and thought perhaps some would be interested in knowing that we’re at level 9.0 HAARP http://www.haarpstatus.com/status.html – and the ChemSoup mix of the day ain’t much better. I’ll post something positive next time.

  32. HUUFC
    November 30, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    In 1942 a P-38 Lightning crash landed in Greenland. In 1992 it was recovered buried under 268 feet of snow. In the fifty years since the crash mother nature had covered it up. So what if the snow is melting now? Glacier Girl was restored to flying condition. Sounds like the circle of life to me.

  33. HUUFC
    November 30, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    I went to Yosemite last February, no snow there at all, It was very nice. I was told that glaciers carved the valley millions of years ago. Must have been colder then, guess it’s warmer now.

  34. Big Al
    November 30, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    I post this from time to time, how high are you?
    http://flood.firetree.net/

  35. Anonymous
    November 30, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    Amazing. The blog moderator posts a report concerning a scientific article posted in one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world. The journal article being discussed was written by scientific experts from major research institutes and universities. The report cites extensive data and analysis from a variety of disciplines using sophisticated technology.

    Then a bunch of blog trolls expose their utter ignorance of science and scientific research by trying to make comparisons with kitchen ice cubes and a trip to a park they took a few years ago. Do you people actually think before your post or is just a reflex that happens after you listen to Rush? I challenge any of you knuckleheads to walk into University of Washington’s Atmospheric Science Department or the Earth Science Department at the University of Leeds and have a rationale discussion with the scientists. You don’t get to these places by making crap up and shooting from the hip. These folks are highly trained and very accomplished scientists. It’s as if a Little League coach is telling Bruce Bochy how to win a baseball game. Unbelievable.

  36. November 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    Corporate propaganda has done its work. There are huge portions of the populations who refuse to believe anything scientists say about the Earth and its systems. The Koch Bros. and their ilk have convinced the ignorant that global climate change is an “opinion,” and a “theory” as if theories are only guesses and nothing more. People say really stupid things like: “Look at how cold it got last winter, I told you global warming was a hoax set up by Al Gore so he could start a carbon sequestration scheme to get rich and enslave all the hard working “white” people into FEMA camps to work for the Blacks and Mexicans getting food stamps and welfare!”
    I’ve actually heard this. You wouldn’t believe what some of our brother’s believe, it’s downright scary.
    Personally I don’t believe in conspiracies, only policies. With the policies in place to protect the wealthy, there is no need for conspiracies.

  37. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 6:34 am

    The highly trained and very accomplished manager Bruce Bochy has a lifetime record of 1454 wins and 1444 losses. Kinda like being wrong half the time, if he were a scientist.

  38. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 8:24 am

    I’d respond to your comment Just Watchin, but you’re a troll so I won’t bother.

  39. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Anon…..Can’t handle the truth, can you?

  40. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 8:48 am

    BarryO promised to lower the sea levels, and it seems that it’s one of the few promises that he’s kept. You want science, here’s science:
    http://iceagenow.info/2011/09/sea-level-continues-inexorable-decline/

  41. Ponder Z
    December 1, 2012 at 9:02 am

    So we should all pay a tax for climate change? And feel good about doing our part? Do all you libtards driving a Prius fell like good world citizens? Do you libtards like the idea of the UN collecting this tax? How about the ITU taxing the Internet? Barry is handing over our nation to world leaders, but you all are OK with it?

  42. Just Watchin
  43. HUUFC
    December 1, 2012 at 9:22 am

    It’s medication time. Please take your medication. Then relax.

  44. HUUFC
    December 1, 2012 at 9:31 am

    On the Fox News website, “Serbian villagers stock up on garlic in fear of vampire rumor”. So if they try to come to the United States (illegally I assume) we have bigger problems than some water on Hwy 101 between Eureka and Arcata. ( Which isn’t there yet either.)

  45. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 9:35 am

    Just debunking the trolls’ post for those who might be confused.

    We had La Nina in 2010 and more water was in the atmosphere and soil than usual for part of the year, (google 2010 floods) following the 2009 El Nino which caused a higher than normal increase in sea level. Notice that they used only a part of 2010 and then projected that there would be a decrease in sea levels if it followed that path? Which of course it did not and, since the article was written before the end of 2010, they didn’t have to correct their mistaken projection. Sea levels rose in 2010 and continue to rise. The rate of increase isn’t linear because it depends on other climate factors throughout the year including El Ninos and La Ninas. The claim from the “skeptic” is based on the same faulty logic that if it snows anywhere global warming is disproven.

    Fastest sea level rise in 2,000 years linked to increasing global temperatures

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110620183242.htm

  46. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 9:41 am

    There is an interactive graph here at an NOAA site where you can select the period and different climate issues such as sea level, glaciers, Arctic Sea ice, greenhouse gas emissions, etc. Check it out.

    http://www.climate.gov/#climateWatch

  47. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 9:49 am

    When data matches your views, then it’s science. When it doesn’t, it’s voodoo. Both sides can trot out “scientific” studies to reinforce their views.
    Like I’ve said before……you libtards crack me up !!!

  48. December 1, 2012 at 9:51 am

    Just Watchin,

    I’m genuinely curious. Do you believe that the IPCC is wrong? If so, do you think the scientists involved are lying, or just mistaken? If lying, do you think it’s for political reasons? Career?

    What sort of consensus would satisfy you that major action to reduce carbon emissions was necessary? 99%? 99.9%? Or is a scientific consensus, in your mind, worthless in terms of decision making?

    Do you think the press reporting on climate change is all wrong except for those outlets that highlight the people who disagree with the consensus? Again, if so, why do you think they put out false news? Mistakes? Politics? Laziness?

    If it turned out that agriculture and industry were behind observed atmospheric changes, and you became convinced that the atmospheric changes would lead to mass extinctions of life forms and very expensive relocations of urban areas, what action if any would you think advisable to reduce or counter the atmospheric changes?

    Does your skepticism extend to the coal industry or the oil industry? Do you ever wonder whether studies sponsored by coal or oil might have a bias towards those industries continued status quo behavior?

  49. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Mitch, someone who is so functionally illiterate that it can’t even understand what was actually claimed in the article and data from the article he posted isn’t likely to understand much of anything. The skeptic author admitted in the article they were only using a few months of data and extrapolating that data for the entire year. If he really is a scientist he knows that sea rise isn’t linear and that we had an El Nino in 2009 and a La Nina in 2010 and they have a large impact on sea level. His attempts to mislead his readers (successfuly in the case of our resident troll) into believing there actually WAS a decrease in sea level in 2010 makes a true skeptic more skeptical of his motivation.

  50. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Pertinent quote from the troll’s link to save you from wasting 10 minutes of your life:

    “2010 could likely show a significant drop global sea level. By significant I mean it is possible that it will likely drop between 2-3 mm from 2009. Since the data has not been updated since August it is difficult to guess more precisely, but the data ends at the time of year that the seasonal drop begins to show up. If the drop does show up as expected it is possible that 2010 will show the largest drop in sea level ever recorded.”

    Could, possible, likely, guess, if, possible (again). What sort of idiot considers this science?

  51. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Why would a “scientist” leave out a single mention of a major sea level effect like La Nina and El Nino if he was really trying to educate and not mislead? Even the headline of this story has a question mark, but apparently trolls don’t get their significance any more than they do the importance of context.

  52. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 10:26 am

    The “skeptic” in question, John Kehr, is a Chemical Engineer by schooling and Research and Development Process Engineer by profession. He has more than a decade of experience at the cutting edge of technology for a large semiconductor company. That experience was critical for him while wading through the often contradictory information that exists about global warming. He was generally neutral about the subject of global warming until he met and married a wonderful woman who challenged him to make a choice.

    He obviously knows more about climate science than scientists who actually have PhD’s in climate science. (sigh) But this shows again how desperately they cling to anything, no matter how transparently misleading, rather than change their view. And they call liberals closed minded.

  53. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 10:44 am

    So John Kehr knows more than PhD climate scientists (sigh), you blame his positions on a woman (sigh), then call his position desperate (sigh). If you don’t like the message, you attack the messenger.
    You’ve learned much from master BarryO, grasshopper.

  54. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Did you even read the article you posted? From “John Kehr” to “choice.” is a copy/paste that HE WROTE! Critical thinking and/or intellectual honesty is completely absent on the right.

  55. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 10:58 am

    And the “desperately they cling” is in reference to idiots like yourself who can’t comprehend what you read and rely primarily on spoken news bytes and faux science blogs for your information reinforce to what you already believe, no matter how obviously false it is.

  56. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 11:04 am

    WOW…..an idiot functional illiterate with 7 figures of net worth. I’d say that there was hope for you PJ to get off the government teat, but that ship sailed long ago.

  57. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 11:08 am

    You obviously inherited it, JW.

  58. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 11:09 am

    No, I’ll bet you won it on a lottery ticket!

  59. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 11:11 am

    And yet here you are, JW. Spending your hours at a free entertainment site. Why not live a little? May I suggest a round-the-world trip? I understand there are many beggars in India who you could taunt!

  60. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 11:11 am

    For the record, I have never received a dime of government assistance having worked in the same field for decades and being well compensated for it. Unlike you, there are people who participate on and read this blog who know who I am so I don’t lie.

  61. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 11:13 am

    I cannot make the same boast. I once received unemployment benefits for about eight days, while back on the East Coast. It was a useful hundred bucks or so, at the time.

  62. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 11:14 am

    (That was me, Mitch, from yet another damned computer.)

  63. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 11:14 am

    As was #59.

  64. Mitch
    December 1, 2012 at 11:15 am

    As was #59

  65. December 1, 2012 at 11:16 am

    moviedad,
    The ‘Theory’ of Relativity – Einstein was smart to place the word ‘theory’ there, because life is change.

    “We must all face the fact that our rulers are certifiably insane or worse.” Wm. S. Burroughs
    It is error and error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

    If you’re content with the status quo, bowing-down and bending over to ‘policy,’ STAY THERE! You won’t be comfortable outside of those bonds. It’s a free country and you’re free to be a slave if you want.
    What you think, what you feel, and what you manifest is always a match – every time – no exceptions.

  66. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Notice the troll didn’t explain why he was so mistaken about what his link actually claimed or try to even defend it? There is also the discrepancy between what the skeptic claimed the University of Colorado data showed (using just a few months of data, of course) and what UofC data actually showed for the entire year (see my link at #45),

    I hate when that happens, Mitch. For me it is usually after clearing my cache and I forget to fill in the fields.

  67. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Plain Jane :You obviously inherited it, JW.

    Just hard work PJ. Actually grew up quite poor. But we never took anything from the government.
    And Anon……I’ve been everywhere that I have had any desire to go, But I have to admit my favorite is Vegas several times a year, and it doesn’t cost me anything because of the comps, which I give back to the casinos at the tables.

  68. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Must be an idiot savant then, JW, because your reading comprehension and logic are really sub par.

  69. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Yea….but a millionaire idiot savant…..LMFAO !!!!

  70. December 1, 2012 at 11:50 am

    So Just Watchin

    All of those jobs that you create. Do you create them out of kindness or because of some kind of social duty? Why are you a job creator?

  71. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 11:59 am

    The world’s top climate scientists publish an article in one of the two most renowned scientific journals and the right-wingers are doing back flips to deny it has any merit. You therefore must doubt all of the other articles in these types of journals – the ones on biology, physics, chemistry, medical research. Do you refuse medical attention because it’s based on hypothesis testing and research? Do you refuse to fly because it’s based on theories?

    These climate scientists are not part-time retired hacks, they conduct serious research and have attained their positions at these universities by the merit and logic of their work. Their ideas have stood up to the rigorous testing and scrutiny of their peers. And where it doesn’t they have used the scientific method to modify ideas and test again, and those results are reviewed again by the rest of the scientists in the field (some of whom having opposing ideas). Didn’t any of you learn about this process in school? Do you have a clue about the difference between a hypothesis and a theory? Do you understand the role of hypothesis testing in science and how scientific knowledge progresses through an iterative process?

    This thread should be used to teach a course in science literacy.

  72. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    LIgget Meir :So Just Watchin
    All of those jobs that you create. Do you create them out of kindness or because of some kind of social duty? Why are you a job creator?

    Where did I say that I was creating jobs?

  73. December 1, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    What has happened to people? I mean people here in the USA. Why are so many people seemingly so dumb? Is it television? Is it high fructose corn syrup? I don’t know but even when I was a kid my friends had better understanding of the natural world than has been displayed in this thread.

    have a peaceful day,
    Bill

  74. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Plain Jane :For the record, I have never received a dime of government assistance having worked in the same field for decades and being well compensated for it. Unlike you, there are people who participate on and read this blog who know who I am so I don’t lie.

    I’m guessing you work in the public sector, some type of government job, maybe HSU? Those are the only types of jobs I can think of where you can spend half of your day on the computer blogging and still get paid for it.

  75. LIggett Meir
    December 1, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Aren’t millionaires job creators? Isn’t that why they need low taxes? Won’t higher taxes impair your ability to create jobs?

  76. 69er
    December 1, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Sure has been an interesting and comical read.

  77. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    LIggett, Just Watchin is a troll who will continue to provoke. You won’t get a straight answer from JW because he’s not interested in an actual dialogue. I suggest you just ignore his nonsense as most of the rest of participants in this blog are beginning to do. :)

  78. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    LIggett Meir :Aren’t millionaires job creators? Isn’t that why they need low taxes? Won’t higher taxes impair your ability to create jobs?

    Liggett…..I helped create plenty of jobs when I was working, but I’m retired now. And actually, I’ve put myself in a position where I probably won’t pay any taxes this year.

  79. December 1, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Just Watchin,
    A millionaire huh? What, on paper? Paper is poverty . . . it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself. Unless you have gold/silver, land patents to your real estate, & recorded your status as a freeman (thus removing government’s presumptions)- you ain’t got nothin’
    “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.” Jefferson
    The American dream – you’d have to be asleep to believe it.

  80. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    No, JW. I am now self-employed after many years in the private sector. I’ve never gotten any type of government check except for tax refunds and not even that since I’ve been self-employed.

  81. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Notice how the troll still hasn’t explained why he thought the “skeptic” link he posted said sea levels declined in 2010? He has diverted the discussion to personal economics – again – apparently because that’s the only claim he can make that we can’t logically dispute since no one but he knows who he is or what his real net worth is. There are about a million times more internet millionaires than there are actual millionaires and who believes that a retired millionaire would spend so much time on a blog from across the country and do such a lousy job of demonstrating his superior intellect? Anyone can claim to be a millionaire when no one knows who they are. I don’t care if he is or isn’t. He is poverty stricken on an intellectual and emotional level.

  82. Mitch
    December 1, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    Anonymous #71,

    Please don’t do that. Just give the students this Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”

    Or, better, teach students to value literature and logic, and to beware of baubles and myths.

    Start now and 2035 will be better than what’s currently planned.

  83. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    I don’t always respond to your drug induced ramblings PJ. Since you posted your support for turning the U.S. into a dictatorship, your opinions mean less than zero to me, but you do entertain me in a “I feel sorry for you” kind of way.

  84. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    It shouldn’t be so hard to get him to understand something that human survival depends on. It’s weird that people who claim to be so concerned over the economic future they are leaving their grandchildren don’t give a hoot about leaving them a planet on which they can thrive. It makes me suspect that their concern for future generations is really just a disguise for their desire to reduce their already low taxes which played a large role in exploding the deficit in the first place.

  85. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    LMAO Troll. When did I do that?

  86. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Plain Jane :LMAO Troll. When did I do that?

    Aren’t you part of the majority??

    “Plain Jane :He was right then and it’s still right, Eurekawork. Unfortunately there are too many in Congress beholden to those who have different agendas who won’t do anything to reverse the dangerous accumulation of wealth at the top and consequent increase in poverty. We don’t elect dictators who can impose their demands on an unwilling Congress even if the majority of the people want it, and they do.”

    WOW…..I knew you were a left wingnut PJ, but I never thought you were in favor of turning our government into a dictatorship. Good thing that people don’t take you seriously any more.

  87. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Let me translate that into trollish for you. I can see why you would mistakenly think I was advocating dictatorship, because that is what you want to believe; but in fact I was talking about Obama’s agenda for which he was elected twice but which an unwilling Congress won’t enact, not that he should be a dictator. To clarify even more since I know how difficult this is for you: The “it” was Obama’s demands which can’t be imposed even though the majority want them enacted. Did you get it this time or do you need an even more simple explanation?

    You had the same problem misunderstanding what I said about drug use. Never have I been or said I was a drug addict. Never have I said I am a current drug user. I was, in fact, using personal anecdote of a youthful and very negative exploration of psychotropic drugs to explain why I didn’t think kids should be using them.

    It’s fun chastising you on your intellectual laziness. I may have been a schoolmistress in a past life. (JOKE)

  88. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    The first step in solving your problem is to admit that you have a problem.

  89. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    You really should consider getting a reader/translator Troll if you want to avoid such embarrassingly obvious errors such as your posting that skeptics’ nonsense above, calling it science and claiming it said what it didn’t say. I’d offer my services but I really don’t think you could afford my rates.

  90. December 1, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    So now we’ve sunk to the fantasy level of debate where imaginative children pretend to be “millionaires?” Why not a “billionaire?” or better yet, why not claim to own all the land the schools are on, so as to have a legitimate right to spout an opinion?
    Silly waste of time, nothing relevant to say.

    Hey there “Forest Queen,”
    I didn’t really get the point of your post. I assume you were talking about “Theory” and what it actually represents. I appreciate your comment nonetheless.
    I think Einstein is relevant to this discussion. He did not even have the benefit of working models, as do present-day climatologists. His “theories” we mathematical abstracts, and yet things went “boom” when the first working model was created. Thanks

    Climate change is one area where the ignorance and “Luddite” mentality of those supporting the rulers really shows itself. The Koch Bros. have a real, financial motivation for denying global warming science, but stooges in the Tea Party have no such motivations. They merely act as “enforcers” of the wealthy’s right to gut the world of its resources during their own lifetime and take what is needed by the whole of humanity for themselves exclusively. I just don’t get it. Why does anyone think these greedy brutes have a right to strip the Earth? I sure don’t. It’s just as much mine, as it is theirs. It’s just as much yours, as it is mine. In the end they will have to kill all the people who think like I do, if they want to keep on stealing the future.

  91. December 1, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Please stop calling JW a troll, PJ. (JW, the Herald will soon be accepting advertising. Care to buy a small banner ad? Only $10K per month, in small bills. Humboldt always needs legal income brought in from outside the county, and you’re looking like our best chance after the railroad. I’m happy to offer you a wide array of advertorial options. Plus four color for a small additional fee.)

  92. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Mitch :Please stop calling JW a troll, PJ. (JW, the Herald will soon be accepting advertising. Care to buy a small banner ad? Only $10K per month, in small bills. Humboldt always needs legal income brought in from outside the county, and you’re looking like our best chance after the railroad. I’m happy to offer you a wide array of advertorial options. Plus four color for a small additional fee.)

    Mitch…..I don’t do small bills. But if it weren’t so expensive, I actually would consider it. That would frost a lot of behinds !!

  93. December 1, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Naming rights may still be available. Think about it: The Humboldt JW Herald? Or you make a proposal? I love this country!

  94. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    I will stop calling him a troll when he stops acting like one, Mitch. I have tried to engage in a logical and fact based discussion and all he does is make false accusations to discredit without refuting any of the facts. I don’t tell you how to respond to posters and I would appreciate the same respect in return.

  95. December 1, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Yes, PJ, you’d appreciate it, as would anyone. But the question is, how likely are you to get it, and will calling our benefactor a troll help you get it?

    The best way to negotiate with people on the right is to talk dollars and cents. Sure, it may involve selling your soul, but only a teensy piece of it. And just think how comfortable you’ll be on your yacht when the riots start. Of course, the Orlando property will be a total loss, but that’s not as much fun as the yacht anyhoo.

  96. December 1, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    PJ,

    I misunderstood your #94. I meant no offense, I just didn’t want our potential benefactor to be upset by the tenants.

    PJ, you can buy advertising and naming rights as well if you’d like.

    Makes no diff to me — highest bidder is the American way, and there ain’t nothin fairer than that. Look at what wonders it’s done for America’s free press. And, as everyone knows, opinions brought to you be GE’s employees or Rupert’s (I hope he doesn’t mind my calling him Rupert, I’m anticipating a windfall of my own) are as objective as objective can be. That’s why the press in America is supported by its advertisers — to maintain its objectivity.

  97. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    JW pretty much got his ass kicked on this thread. A turning point is post #83 where he refuses to discuss his idiotic interpretations of science and then pulls out his tired slogan about drug addicts. He also side-steps at #69 where he changes the subject to some idiot statement about being a millionaire. You’d think such a drubbing would discourage this troll – but I suppose it’s just mud wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

    And in regards to the idiot statements about drug abuse:
    Most of my generation got blasted on drugs. Most don’t do it anymore, but it may be a contributing factor for the innovation and creativity that occurred in the “drug belt” to produce the microcomputers and software we all now enjoy. Ever notice that Silicon Valley and MIT/Harvard thrived in the hippy states – those crucibles of creative and intellectual thinking didn’t originate in the red states. Some of our greatest thinkers, scientists, and artists had substance abuse problems. That is a sad state of life, but it doesn’t preclude logical thinking, as clearly shown on this thread.

    Oh by the way troll – it’s been raining here all day. That may explain why people are sticking around to rub your face in your idiotic posts.

  98. December 1, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Anonymous,

    True enough, Mr. Watchin’s argument did not carry the day this time. He just needs to part with a bit of his excellent stash to hire better propagandists. I understand they are easily found in Washington, DC, and will work for anyone with money. Once Mr. Watchin has located the appropriate consultants and purchased the appropriate media, there is no question in my mind that the Tea Party will honor him as it has so many of his illustrious predecessors.

    I just hope, if he uses one, that his hairpiece is better than Mr. Trump’s.

  99. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Thanks, Mitch; I don’t need any more business and believe that false propaganda (is that an oxymoron?) is a detriment our society.

  100. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    oops, I meant redunancy, not oxymoron. I need to get off here and take my walk between downpours.

  101. Just Watchin
    December 1, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    < Smiling Pig…..Oink ! Ass kicked…..LMFAO. Sorry about the rain. It was 80 degrees and sunny here today.

  102. December 1, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Just Watchin,

    I looked up Orlando weather and it appears you were accurate. Careful, please! You have a reputation here to maintain!

  103. December 1, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Sort of back on the original topic, it’s been occurring to me today that the real thing those interested in getting people to be knowledgeable and interested should be going after is storm surges. As in the one a few weeks ago across the entire Atlantic seaboard — and which could very easily have been quite a bit worse.

    Energy goes up in the atmosphere (that’s temperature rise to those not schooled in this) just a weensy bit, and you build larger storms — and it doesn’t take much. More rise, more intense the storms, and more of them to collide and make gigantus ones.

    New Orleans, Sandy, it’s just a start, and as we see, it arrives a lot more quickly than visible sea level rises. Lots and lots from Texas to the northern East coast is very susceptible to this. The recent storm’s flooding was predicted to reach Central Park on Manhattan; looks like it didn’t make it that far this time.

    Now, let’s see. Orlando, just for interest. How high is it on that mainly flat limestone plain that most of Florida is made of, where the water can just come right in and also not drain off except when the sea goes back down?

    Well, the webnet says Orlando, at least where the posh live, is relatively safe from this, at 32 meters. So, you could be an island. I bet that would be a lot of fun.

  104. Anonymous
    December 1, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    The longer it goes, the more comical it gets.

  105. 69er
    December 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Not by anonymous, but by me, 69er

    The longer it goes, the more comical it gets.

  106. Plain Jane
    December 1, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Glad you enjoyed it, 69er. It was fun.

  107. December 1, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    69er,
    Not comedy: as I’ve stated before, we’re racing towards galactic center at 240km per second, of course the planet is heating up -SO ARE ALL OF THE OTHER PLANETS.
    The ‘green, green, green projects’ go back to the meeting of the Club of Rome when they were discussing the next war which would ultimately be the environmental war, which would include all of the planets. The Club’s leader in the ’70’s said the following: “in searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine, and the like, would fit the bill . . . all these dangers are caused by human intervention” – from the book The First Global Revolution.

  108. December 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    “we’re racing towards galactic center at 240km per second, of course the planet is heating up”

    Is it our friction against the ether causing the warming, or is it the heat from the galactic center? And will it have any effect on Orlando? Or Dawn?

    This really sounds like something Team America should investigate!

  109. Dr. Sun Burns
    December 1, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Mitch,

    If you would only let yourself live in the moment, relax and enjoy the prose, Forest Queen really does have a way with words. She is a talented and intelligent writer, in the moment.

    Say FQ ten times very quickly.

    You are welcome.

    That will be $150.00

  110. December 1, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    Well, thanks, but which moment is the one I should be living in? The present one keeps slipping away. I completely agree that FQ is a talented and intelligent writer.

  111. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 6:23 am

    So what were we racing toward before 1900? Were we going in the opposite direction during the ice ages?

  112. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 6:32 am

    Mitch :“we’re racing towards galactic center at 240km per second, of course the planet is heating up”
    Is it our friction against the ether causing the warming, or is it the heat from the galactic center? And will it have any effect on Orlando? Or Dawn?
    This really sounds like something Team America should investigate!

    everyone knows it’s the greenhouse gas methane at the core of global warming, and the number one contributor……COW FARTS !! I’m in the process of designing a butt plug with a balloon attached to capture the gas. I’ll keep everyone posted on my progress.

  113. December 2, 2012 at 7:14 am

    At last Just Watchin reveals he knows about a source of global warming. Unfortunately, agriculture, including methane from cows, is estimated to be 8% of humanity’s contribution to greenhouse gas emssions, at least for the UK:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/9334019/Flatulent-cows-gas-emissions-measured-by-scientists.html

    So, JW, the scientists are with you on the need to reduce GHG from cows. How’s about joining the scientists on the less obvious sources, like the burning of fossil fuel? Or, of course, you could become a late night TV comedy writer.

    But please don’t blame the cows — they are only around in the quantities we see because humans like eating them.

  114. December 2, 2012 at 7:17 am

    Then there’s this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17953792

    And, while I can’t be sure this isn’t a fraud, but: http://phys.org/news135003243.html

  115. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 7:49 am

    I can’t believe someone already beat me to the buttplug/balloon idea, but my dog farts a lot, and I can try it out on him, but I might have to scale back the size of the prototype

  116. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 7:55 am

    Grass fed, local beef has a smaller carbon footprint than cows fed on corn and shipped around the country, tastes better (IMO) and helps the local economy. While grass fed cows produce more methane in their lifetimes than feedlot beef (feedlot beef having a shorter life due to faster weight gain) they also maintain and fertilize a carbon sink (the soil of their pastures) which makes their footprint close to neutral. Sheep have a lower carbon footprint still due to their lives being even shorter.

  117. December 2, 2012 at 8:00 am

    No, JW, you’re not the first person to realize fart jokes are funny, nor is whatever right wing faux journalist from whom you heard this. Scientists have long acknowledged that modern day agriculture, including the vast numbers of ruminants bred for their meat, are a substantial contributor to GHG emissions.

    Your butt plug “idea” is not new either.

    Don’t worry, I’m sure the Herald’s readership could, if asked, come up with an alternative use for your prototype.

    The sane solution to this part of the climate problem would involve shifting human diets away from meat, which is already consumed at unhealthy levels in the developed world. It could be done with the same sort of ad campaigns that worked to reduce tobacco usage. The planned “solutions” instead involve changes in the diets fed to the ruminants. The meat industry has lobbyists; the cows do not.

  118. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 8:19 am

    Geeeeez….make a cow fart joke, and it gets taken seriously. For cryin out loud, lighten up people !

  119. Light Em Up
    December 2, 2012 at 8:30 am

    Geez, lighten up pipple!

    November 25, 2012 at 5:58 am | #14 Just Watchin

    Quote

    Anonymous……I may be a Republican, but my opinions are not always with the party line. For example, I’m O.K. with abortion. As a matter of fact, I believe abortion should be mandatory for pregnant women with two or more children who are collecting any form of welfare.

    November 28, 2012 at 9:26 am | #133 Just Watchin

    Quote

    My good friend Shudder Bug got me to thinking, and I’ve changed my position on forced abortions for welfare women. Here it is: A woman collecting welfare and having her second (or more) child should have thier tubes tied during the birthing procedure. Once she has been “welfare free” for a period of two consecutive years, the procedure could be reversed, at the government’s expense, and she could have another child. However, if she is back on welfare at the birth of her third child, tubes are tied again, and she must be welfare free for three years. No infants are killed, and the baby factories may think twice before spreadin them without protection!!

  120. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 8:45 am

    And the legend lives on!!!!!! LMFAO. Thank you light em up!

  121. Light Em Up
    December 2, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Since I am working to destroy the Republican party all I can say is keep posting. You notice that there is not a single Humboldt Republican with the stones to defend you? You are a wanker that is too stupid to understand this so you’ll keep posting here until they finally put the bozo filter to use.

  122. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 9:37 am

    I didn’t think there were Republicans in humboldt, not that I really care. And I’ll keep posting for all of my fans like you.
    And really……is wanker the best you come up with?? Most of my fans are smarter than that.

  123. December 2, 2012 at 9:38 am

    Mitch @108,
    Friction. As far as I know the galactic center is what we term a black hole. Heat -I don’t know. Effect on Orlando -I don’t know. Has anyone been following the ‘mysterious’ loud booms being heard back east? I’m not up on Biblical chapters/verses, but one in Revelation mentions 7 horns/trumpets(?) being heard. Could it be the earth’s electro-magnetic field going down? Makes me think of clothing myself in organic grown, preferably not dyed, 100% hemp. If you place a magnet on one side of the cloth, and one on the opposite side – there’s no attraction.
    Thank you Dr. Sun Burns and Mitch for your kind words. We live in the now -always (present is something that’s wrapped-up with a bow). I MEAN . . . if we just replaced the mongrel word ‘marijuana’ with the correct original word -kanabosm – when all of their codes, rules, regs. have the word marijuana/cannabis – think about it.
    In 1828 Webster (attorney & Mason) said: ” The bastardization of the English language is the worst crime that I could commit against mankind. I have to make a living.” Like Walt Disney and many others, he was forced to go along with the banksters – they had families to protect.
    P.J. @111
    I don’t buy his story about ‘ice age.’ As far as I’ve read and heard, approx. 13,000 years ago, the earth spun the other direction, and probably was on the out-wave from the center.

  124. Anonymous
    December 2, 2012 at 10:05 am

    I don’t “believe”, “buy”, or have “faith in” ice ages (periods of colder climate and glaciation).

    However, I have observed the evidence of glacial striations on rocks, the evidence of large boulders that cannot easily be transported by streams, the evidence of moraines and sculpted topography in alpine areas and northern and southern latitudes, and I’ve read about the immense amount of geochemical data extracted from soils and ocean sediments that are consistent with colder climates. I’ve also seen the same striations, rocks, and landforms left behind as modern glaciers recede. I’ve read and listened to scientists and their descriptions of glaciation as the best fit to the observations. Of course you could dismiss all of that and say it is the hand of God (or Satan) or the work of elves at night, but that wouldn’t be science. Rather it would be something you chose to “believe”, “buy” , or have “faith in”.

    It might be easier in these type of discussions if people posting just stated: “I choose to not accept the scientific method” as a preamble, so we wouldn’t waste time trying to interpret their objections in the context of a scientific dialogue. Most of the people in the Middle Ages did not accept scientific explanations either, and that was certainly a glorious “new age”.

  125. December 2, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Mitch @117,
    “The sane solution is to shift diets away from meat . . .”- climate or otherwise. This takes 18 months to taper away from. Six months of fish and chicken, six months of fish and dairy products -cheeses/yogurt/milk, and six months of eggs and fish. Then, I’m told, we could make it on fruits, veggies, eggs, dairy products. The chickens ‘gift’ of eggs is so we don’t eat them (the chickens). As long as there are slaughter houses, we will not have freedom. The reason that in India the cow is sacred is because of the earth being flooded thousands of years ago – the horned animals were the only ones capable of climbing the heights, along with the people, for survival.
    What I really want to know is, WHAT HAPPENED TO HUMBOLDT BUTTERMILK six months ago??? It flat-out disappeared from the shelves!!!

  126. December 2, 2012 at 10:20 am

    Anonymous,
    You’re correct. Thank you for the correction. Ice age and ‘global warming’ are not my expertise. Rather . . I think we should lead ourselves out of this quagmire we find ourselves in and not look for individuals to lead us out of this mess.

  127. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 10:35 am

    We need individuals to lead us out of this quagmire. We need legislation, research and funding which requires the individuals we elect treat the threat seriously and take the best action available on our behalf. We as individuals need to decrease our carbon footprint by using less energy, changing our diets and other consumption patterns. Either/or isn’t enough.

  128. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Did that happen before or after the Vedic age (1500-600 BC), FQ? India changed from a primarily meat eating populace to primarily vegetarian with the arrival of Buddhism and Jainism (circa 500 BC). Cows aren’t so much sacred as they are taboo to eat, their nutritional value being so much greater when used for dairy products instead of meat. It was during this time that they ended the practice of slaughtering the best animal to impress visitors which was detrimental to the health of the herd.

  129. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 11:09 am

    And maybe the White House could lead the way and put up the solar panels like they promised. Maybe they’re waiting for stimulus money.

  130. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Maybe they would if they could get a promise from Republicans not to tear them out before they even have a chance to pay for themselves in either reduced energy consumption or lower bills. Carter had solar panels installed in 1979 and Reagan had them removed in 1981.

  131. December 2, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Plain Jane,
    You said, “We need individuals to lead us out of this quagmire.”?????? You completely missed, and reversed my point. “We” who? Not me. We have all agreed to “Be Here Now” for this event in humanity’s evolution, so LET’S REMEMBER WHO WE ARE, and why we’re here.

    It ain’t working (legislatures/legislation and doll hair funding), so let’s keep doing it – there’s no logic there. We can’t keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. If/when I ever think I need someone else to tell me how to live my life – I’ll rattle their cage.
    It all comes down to fear, lose that and we can turn the tables on those who prey on and profit from it. “When the people fear the government, we have tyranny. When the government fears the people, we have liberty.” Jefferson. Ain’t no one gonna do this for us.
    So come on now P.J., you’re awake, sitting on the edge of your bed – STAND!!!!!!

  132. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Plain Jane :
    Maybe they would if they could get a promise from Republicans not to tear them out before they even have a chance to pay for themselves in either reduced energy consumption or lower bills. Carter had solar panels installed in 1979 and Reagan had them removed in 1981.

    BJ….still livin in the past. Did Lincoln do anything to piss you off?

  133. December 2, 2012 at 11:47 am

    Plain Jane @128,
    I was speaking of the Biblical flood. I appreciate your info. on the nutritional value of cows being so much greater when used as dairy products rather than meat.

  134. Anonymous
    December 2, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Although cows are capable of transforming grasses that we can’t digest into protein that we can consume. If we aren’t trucking cows all over and not feeding them things we can eat (e.g. corn), then they are an environmentally viable food source (excluding ethical considerations one may have about consuming other animals). This also requires that the wild grasslands are not overgrazed and attention is paid to drainage and water quality.

  135. Just Watchin
    December 2, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    Only here could cow farts conjure up a discussion about the biblical flood.

  136. December 2, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    Forest Queen, actually I think Jane didn’t reverse your point;. Maybe it was that word ‘lead’ that made it seem so, though.

    We could maybe use that earlier Americans model, where there have been chiefs for each knowledge and wisdom the tribe needs. No-one can know enough to do all themselves, as I am sure you are clear.

    In fact, one of the more interesting things going on in development of the necessary to have our future is the way some groupings of ‘experts’ are starting to actually converse with each other, due to the same internet we’re using here, as well as their ‘tribal’ meetings.

    Not going to go into this, but it is certainly interesting, and makes I think a lot towards your ‘let’s do this ourselves’, if I am getting more glimmerings of your intention there.

  137. Plain Jane
    December 2, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Emissions of Carbon Dioxide Hit Record in 2011, Researchers Say
    By JUSTIN GILLIS and JOHN BRODER

    “Global emissions of carbon dioxide were at a record high in 2011 and are likely to take a similar jump in 2012, scientists reported Sunday — the latest indication that efforts to limit such emissions are failing.

    Emissions continue to grow so rapidly that an international goal of limiting the ultimate warming of the planet to 3.6 degrees, established three years ago, is on the verge of becoming unattainable, said researchers affiliated with the Global Carbon Project.”

    “The new figures show that emissions are falling, slowly, in some of the most advanced countries, including the United States.”

    “But the decline of emissions in the developed countries is more than matched by continued growth in developing countries like China and India, the new figures show. Coal, the dirtiest and most carbon-intensive fossil fuel, is growing fastest, with coal-related emissions leaping more than 5 percent in 2011, compared with the previous year.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/world/emissions-of-carbon-dioxide-hit-record-in-2011-researchers-say.html?ref=global-home

  138. Plain Jane
  139. December 4, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Narration @136,
    Actually the key word in my above post, that you reference, is ‘individual’ – another one of those vowel before two consonants words. Look up every word in the dictionary beginning with a vowel followed by two consonants, and you’ll find a negative condition of state – no contract. Law is contract, contract makes the law, and consent makes the contract. We have all the power we need to create all the changes we choose.

    All of the many trials and errors I’ve made in the past ten years testing the waters – sea of commerce – have funneled down quite nicely. The choice is simple, do you want to be a ‘citizen’ of the United States, or do you want to be an American, a sovereign, with all of the powers left to you by our forefathers as the greatest gift that can be given on this earth in this life? The choice is still available. Make it wisely.
    Here’s a link that is really quite good in summing up foundational knowledge about how things got to be the way they are:
    http://archive.org/details/TheGreatestStoryNeverToldUntilNow
    Dang, looks like the 2011 version, and what you want to read is the Oct. 2012 revised version. Revisions are constant, because as we figure out the rules of the game, they change the rules. The 2012 version is 122 pages.

  140. December 4, 2012 at 11:02 am

    FQ,

    Arctic. Allele. Alternate. And. And so on.

  141. December 4, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Jeez us Mitch, I can’t hold your hand and walk you through this transition. ‘Arctic’ you probably think of it as a location, rather than it referencing a direction – which can change – pole shift, earth spinning the other direction, etc. Yeah, these words work for now, I’m talking future. The magnetic pole moved 40 miles last year. ‘Alternate’ – do we really have an alternate choice as far as setting the records straight, and getting ourselves out of this mess we find ourselves in? I only bring the language thing up as for future knowledge. Remember, it’s a dictionary, not a wordinary.
    Wouldn’t you rather be using 720 positive words for communication?
    Make people think and they will love you. Make them really think and they will hate you. Thinking hurts the brain.

  142. December 4, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    I’ve been jeezing you for weeks now, FQ. Long may you jeez. Let your jeez flag fly high. Jeez saves.

  143. December 4, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    You’re cute Mitch. I’ll probably be around forever and day – I don’t believe in dis ease – since I’m under a canopy there’s no stress here, just ease.

  144. Plain Jane
    December 8, 2012 at 8:13 am

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