Home > Uncategorized > Can I speak plainly?

Can I speak plainly?

wallstreetOver the past several days, I have done my best to make myself a pest.  I realize it’s not likely to have much effect, but I need to humor myself from time to time.

I would call the current school bond story a continuation of the financial meltdown story of 2008ish, when both Republican and Democratic administrations stepped in to save Wall Street from its excesses, with no punishment doled out for anyone except homeowners.

I’m apparently not talented enough to communicate the magnitude of this shafting, screwing, fucking-over of the taxpayer.  It’s really very simple, but it involves numbers and people with connections, and so there is probably nothing that anyone can do to wake people up to the story.

The short version is, the taxpayer has been played.  Hey, there’s no “older” news than that.

It was predictably difficult for campaigners to convince people to spare a buck for the education of their children.  It was hard, but people who care about kids and education were able to pull it off.  They thought they’d successfully pried a buck from the self-centered, stupid, pathetic citizens that make up the California electorate, enough to pay to fix some roofs.

But that’s not actually what they accomplished.  What they accomplished was just the feeding of pigs, once again.  Pigs that will take ten bucks for every buck that actually goes towards educating our society’s children.  Pigs that take fees to play stupid school board members.

The pigs in charge.

Heads should roll.

They won’t, or the wrong ones will.

It’s our way.

  1. Matt P
    December 6, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    What happened to the old Heraldo? I liked him/her a lot more than these various guest posters.

  2. December 6, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Fuck you, too, Matt P. Fuck you.

  3. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Someone needs to speak plainly as the reporters at the local newspaper of record have clearly been muzzled.

  4. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    The school board in McKinleyville should resign en masse in order to save the people of McKinleyville the effort and expense of a recall. Then call a special election to refill the board and any of these people can run again if they choose to.

  5. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    I smell a class action lawsuit, class being the taxpayers of McKinleyville. Esquires, start your laptops.

  6. December 6, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Finally I can say ‘Off the pigs’ and have no worry that some good guys get swept out with the bad.
    And good on ya Mitch – don’t let troll morons get ya down…..

  7. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    I’m apparently not talented enough to communicate the magnitude of this shafting, screwing, fucking-over of the taxpayer.

    No, it’s just that we understood you the first time. It might help to consolidate updates into a single post a day.

  8. December 6, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    I think you’re missing the sense of development, Anon 6:23. And there has definitely been development here.

  9. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    There was an actual story and a really important issue in this bond fiasco. But it has been totally obfuscated by your presentation. I’m sorry Mitch, I don’t know you except by your rantings here and frankly I no longer could imagine wanting to. You are nothing but a bully and an asshole. At one point Eric said it was your joint intent to improve the civility and level of discourse on our local blogs. You guys have utterly and completely failed. I never thought I would say it but I prefer Josh and Conrad, at least they had a sophistication and sense of humor. You guys are simply mean and are willing to sacrifice your message to take meanness to the furthest possible level.

    Now go ahead, you and your friends can shoot at the messenger. I could give a shit.

  10. Goldie
    December 6, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    I share the frustration Mitch speaks to when the citizens are robbed time and again and then some more and the laws of the nation and of common sense are not employed. Is law only a myth?
    When citizens fight amoung themselves, red/bule, monied and unmonied, cat lovers/dog lovers, then the robbers in the confusion of our distraction continue.
    Let’s talk about Mitch and let those who sold and profit from these future eating bonds remain unknown.

  11. Skippy
    December 6, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    Mitch, you did OK. And so did the readers making different illuminating comments in the past threads. Carry on, and take what you’re good at and make it better.

  12. Ponder Z
    December 6, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    Mitch, you, are complaining about taxes??? Hello, now you can see first hand how the redistribution of wealth benefits some at the expense of others. Now think about this lesson and look at obamacare.

  13. December 6, 2012 at 9:26 pm


    I try not to get too puffed up, but I’m honored by your comments. Thank you. I would have been mystified by the “bully” thing a decade or two ago, but I now get it.

    I vote for Ponder Z for Mayor of McKinleyville. Unless, that is, Just Watchin is willing to return to Humboldt.

  14. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    Is it possible the junk bond is financed by Security National and pushed by one of the board members who works for them?

  15. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    Or it could be the school district was so desperate to fix problems with its buildings and had no other way to pay for it? Maybe it was a bad decision maybe not. But why do the loonies think it had to be corruption?

    None of you cared a twit about Mck schools before to help. And I agree with the poster at #7 & #9. We got it the first frigging topic you don’t need to make topic after topic after topic on the same issue. Josh is gone because his business is kaput. Wonder if he has any empathy for business owners, the taxes the have to pay and the regulations they harrass them all the time now?

  16. Anonymous
    December 6, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    “They thought they’d successfully pried a buck from the self-centered, stupid, pathetic citizens that make up the California electorate, enough to pay to fix some roofs.”

    That’s what we get when over half the eligible electorate abstain from every election.

    Didn’t a recent CA Bill provide a billion to back CA Go Bonds?

    McKinnleyville needs to consolidate their educational boards, too many hands in the pot for a county lacking good community media.

  17. Afannomore
    December 6, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    Mitch :
    Fuck you, too, Matt P. Fuck you.

    Yup, I like the old Heraldo crew much better myself

  18. Walt
    December 7, 2012 at 6:08 am

    In an era of ALEC, MERS, TARP, Citizens United and Fox News, does any of this really surprise you? Nor should it surprise you that Mitch and others kind of lose it when they realize 46 percent of Americans have been convinced the world was created 10,000 years ago, that Barack Obama is an alien life form, and that the people being evicted from their homes caused the 2008 financial disaster.

    And no, using the F word does not contribute to meaningful dialogue. . .it just makes things worse.

  19. Just Watchin
    December 7, 2012 at 6:31 am

    Mitch :#9,
    I try not to get too puffed up, but I’m honored by your comments. Thank you. I would have been mystified by the “bully” thing a decade or two ago, but I now get it.
    I vote for Ponder Z for Mayor of McKinleyville. Unless, that is, Just Watchin is willing to return to Humboldt.

    Mayor JW……I like it. But I couldn’t stand to live in an area where everything is all about blame, and no one takes any personal responsibility. Everything I’ve read about these bond fiascos starts with “those evil Wall Street bankers”. They didn’t hold a gun to anyone’s head to sign away the future of their community, knowing they would be long gone when it came time to face the music. Greed comes in all shapes and sizes.

  20. December 7, 2012 at 7:32 am


    I understand. Now I think I’ll pick up a copy of Babbitt. I haven’t read it since high school, so a re-read is overdue. By the way, consider being Mayor by remote connection — technology makes wonders possible.

  21. December 7, 2012 at 7:45 am

    “McKinnleyville needs to consolidate their educational boards, too many hands in the pot for a county lacking good community media.”

    Absolutely, and not just McK. It might be worthwhile for a reporter to do up a piece on the sizes of the various school districts and on the perks (if any) of being a school board member in the various districts. Of course there are perks and then there are perks — being able to add “school board member” to a resume is a time-honored path towards higher political things.

    I think district consolidation requires the school board members of the consolidating districts to vote themselves out of their positions. But if it were ever going to happen, this would be the window.

  22. Plain Jane
    December 7, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Rather than pay taxes at an adequate rate to fund what we as a country decided should be provided by government at various levels, we are essentially buying very expensive duct tape and charging it to future taxpayers who will, of course, have their own bills to pay as well.

    We worried about religious conservatives taking over our school boards and controlling what our kids are taught, but didn’t recognize the danger from fiscal conservatives starving our education beast far into the future, sucking billions out of education funding with loan shark bonds and mandatory privatized educational and testing materials. Putting people who hate public education on school boards is just as crazy as putting people who hate government in elected office or giving foxes the key to the hen house.

  23. December 7, 2012 at 8:00 am


    Exactly right.

    I’d suggest one terminology change — I’m as guilty of using the wrong terminology as anyone. “Fiscal conservative” has now been demonstrated as the fraud it is. No “fiscal conservative” would go anywhere near bonds like these. The people who use the term “fiscal conservative” should be called “tax evaders.” They’ll do anything to avoid paying an extra buck today, including mortgaging the grandkids.

    I realize I’m divisive; the sort of person local morons feel comfortable calling a hater.

    But for those who are mellower and more comfortable in working with the stupid, this makes a wonderful window for cooperative real-conservatives and cooperative real-liberals to form an alliance. Real conservatives have worried about the federal debt for decades, and now they have their very own local version. And real liberals have been warning for decades about the intentional “starve the beast” strategy that right wing radicals have successfully pushed.

    People of good will ought to be able to find ways to cooperate to fight back.

  24. December 7, 2012 at 8:01 am

    The former “Heraldo” closed up his record store and is dealing with health issues. I wish him well. I think Mitch is doing a fine job. This is a “progressive” site, and Mitch and Erik are keeping it that way. Why on Earth these “Conservative/Radicals” want to waste their time trying to convince the rest of us that up is down, and the greedy rich are our friends; is way beyond me. They should start their own blogs if they don’t like it.
    Keep up the postings Mitch. Don’t let fools get your Goat. Protect the Goat at all costs! Long live the Goat!

  25. Just Watchin
    December 7, 2012 at 8:11 am

    Mitch……glad you accurately defined what a “fiscal conservative” is, and how they wouldn’t touch these bonds with a ten foot pole. But BJ’s comments confirm my earlier point: blame first, and take no responsibility.

  26. December 7, 2012 at 8:37 am

    Seems that either tra, or PJ, mentioned something about ’emergency’ associated with this. I guess it may be considered an emergency in light of borrowing to pay off a past bond (?).
    My 2 cents:
    “Emergency does not create power. Emergency does not increase granted power or remove or diminish restrictions imposed upon power granted or reserved. The Constitution was adopted IN a period of grave emergency. Its grants of power to the Federal Government and its limitations of the power of the States were determined in the light of emergency and they are NOT altered by emergency.” [Emphasis added]
    Home Building & Loan Asssoc. v Blaisdell 290 US 426 (1934).

    “The Constitution of the United States is a LAW for rulers and people equally in war and peace, and covers with the shield of its protection ALL classes of men, at ALL times, and under ALL circumstances. No doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was EVER invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of the government. Such a doctrine leads directly to anarchy or despotism.” [Emphasis added] U.S. Supreme Court in 1866.

  27. Plain Jane
    December 7, 2012 at 8:41 am

    I would take it even further, Mitch. The self-interested pigs who have taken over the “conservative” label aren’t conservative by any legitimate definition. They aren’t really conservative about anything. They want to exploit fossil fuels to the max without regard for the environmental damage done and have no concerns for future generations having to mitigate the damage with scarcer energy and fewer economic tools. When in control of govt. they explode the debt as they funnel it to their special interests and scream bloody murder when Democrats are in control and try to do anything to help the majority. Their agenda, if taken to its obvious and inevitable conclusion, would result in a few hundred “royal families” and the rest of us court lackeys and peons. The Walton’s would, of course, be the most royal. For decades they denied that wealth was concentrating at the top, and then they denied that their increased wealth was from the pockets of workers, and then they claimed lowering their taxes would create jobs, and then they claimed that raising their taxes would tank the economy. Then when everything started to crash because it was too out of balance and rigged to their benefit, they blamed poor people, public employees and unions and called them greedy.

    Their cynical and deceitful political strategies were well exposed in 2012 but there are still millions who can’t see beyond the manufactured social issues to where their own best interests lie. But there is good news. a recent poll shows that clear majorities support President Obama’s plan to let tax cuts for the rich expire while maintaining them for the majority as well as protecting Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Among Republicans only 48% favor maintaining the tax cuts for everyone, down from 74% in 2010.

  28. Just Watchin
    December 7, 2012 at 8:52 am

    Again…..my point is confirmed. Maybe “BJ” should stand for “Blame Jane”? Nah, I’ll stick with my original thought. It conjures up images of Slick Willie’s interpretation of what is and is not sex. Guess it depends on what the definition of the word “is” is.

  29. December 7, 2012 at 8:54 am

    Well said, Jane. And Mitch , you are performing a public service. I can’t understand why the local paper of record hasn’t picked up on this. That’s a story in itself.

  30. December 7, 2012 at 9:12 am

    Anonymous @ #9,
    You’re not even close to being a messenger, just self-aggrandizement. I, for one, appreciate both Mitch and Eric’ posts – this is where We the People can/do come together with our voices. In the beginning there was sound, hence, freedom of speech is the first article in amendment. Uni -one, verse – sound.

  31. Anonymous
    December 7, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Mitch :
    Fuck you, too, Matt P. Fuck you.

    Such a gracious reply. I’ve been a regular reader here for years. I missed the announcement of the reason for the change some time ago I guess. I have been wondering about what happened to Heraldo for a while now. I’m glad I didn’t ask. I have been enjoying what Mitch has been writing. After this response, and some of the backbiting that goes on regularly around here I see why I visit less than in the past.

    I suppose that this comment will get me a fuck you as well.

  32. December 7, 2012 at 10:08 am

    No, #31, Walt is quite right. I’ll just say that life is endlessly surprising to me in revealing what people consider important. Oh, and I always wonder about those people who rise in anonymity to defend the indefensible while complaining about rudeness.

  33. Plain Jane
    December 7, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Everyone who has ever done volunteer work knows there will always be those who sit on the sidelines and criticize and then get insulted when the volunteers are less than appreciative of their critique. If you think you can do better, step right up. The Herald doesn’t have the local blog franchise.

  34. December 7, 2012 at 10:14 am

    But it HAS cornered the advertising market, and was first to the line with naming rights. Capitalism RULEZ!

  35. December 7, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Apologies again, as I know this belongs on ‘Quick Notes,’ however, Quick Notes will not download for me – I can’t handle the spinning beach ball!

    This was released yesterday – Groundbreaking New Documentary Film Uncovers The UN Sanctioned War on Drugs – narrated by Morgan Freeman & Gail Garcia Bernal


  36. Anonymous
    December 7, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Why is the Times Standard covering up local financial crimes?

  37. Anonymous
    December 7, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    #31 here rising in anonymity to clarify that my previous remarks were aimed at stating an opinion regarding a response from one of the contributors to this blog rather than defending anything anyone may have written here. I hope that clears up any wonderment you may have Mitch.

    In fact, I don’t agree with Matt P. I enjoy the new format of this blog since it’s been turned over to the “new guard”. Sometimes dual posts on Eric’s blog and this one are a bit much. Other than that, I appreciate the thought and time that go into the opinions expressed here by the keepers of the blog. The recent expose of the financial dealings going on with these bond issuance’s has been most revealing and educational.

    I expressed my opinion on the response from Mitch because I was surprised that someone whom I considered a gentleman would respond in such a fashion. My mistake.

  38. December 7, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    #31 and #37,

    You are completely correct that my response to #1 was not gentlemanly. I stand revealed, embarrassed, and ashamed. Can we move on?

  39. December 7, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Oh Fine Then! Just when it was getting interesting!

  40. Anonymous
    December 8, 2012 at 8:10 am

    Plain Jane :
    Everyone who has ever done volunteer work knows there will always be those who sit on the sidelines and criticize and then get insulted when the volunteers are less than appreciative of their critique. If you think you can do better, step right up. The Herald doesn’t have the local blog franchise.

    The same thing could be said of you and your endless criticism of Council & School Board members.

  41. Plain Jane
    December 8, 2012 at 8:15 am

    Except they aren’t volunteers and they are wasting taxpayer money, so you could say that of me but that would just make you a liar.

  42. Just Watchin
    December 8, 2012 at 8:40 am

    Finally…..someone agrees that the voters actually are dumber than a box of rocks for electing the crooks.

  43. Anonymous
    December 8, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    Plain Jane :
    Except they aren’t volunteers and they are wasting taxpayer money, so you could say that of me but that would just make you a liar.

    School board members are volunteers. Fool.

  44. December 9, 2012 at 7:11 am

    ‘Volunteers’ with both hands in the pie. Government “plays” great paupers to the media for presentation to the public while at the same time having the net worth of a million Bill Gates. The perspective we are spoon-fed from government is NOT in our best interest, but in theirs
    . . . as the US/local government financial “empire” continues to expand worldwide. It is one thing as to what is there, and it is totally another of how fast it can disappear if no one is looking!

  45. December 9, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Hard to miss the deliberate looting going on in this country, Mitch. I just mentioned that because I was just wondering if you could stop beating around the bush?

    I love your uses of words like “excesses,” Mitch, ie., “excesses, with no punishment doled out for anyone except homeowners.” You can’t have “punishments” without breaking the law. “Excesses” hardly meets that criteria. But then, you don’t recognize anything legitimate, legal or lawful.

  46. December 9, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Mr. Blow,

    Sometimes you come as a relief. It’s always nice to have someone out there who thinks my words too moderate, too “beating around the bush.” If you didn’t exist….

  47. December 10, 2012 at 10:14 am

    “Too moderate”? Is that what you think I said? Yeah! Maybe it is time you took a powder. Not so much fun when the shoe’s on the other foot is it?

    “If you didn’t exist…” You could say that about God too. The “Corruption” could have everything all it’s own way.

  48. December 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Can I Speak Plainly ?
    I have been thinking of this requirement for the government to have standing. As so stated many times, we have the power to do as we will -something -it is our wish, or will that creates the thing [res] and so it is our snare also. If we would go back to the first things taught to most, we had direct negative commands, and in some cases when young we may have thought our name was no or don’t. As we have gone thru the school programming systems we also have been shown our place. I remember only on rare occasion in school ever sitting around a table or in conference. You had your own desk with the chair, the place holder, they said that it was your seat, as in “take your seats,” perhaps the first thing you had responsibility for outside of the family chores. Now fast-forward being an adult and we still are in our place [the designated box] at work, family, or court, or any number of roles we may play out. This is the outcome based education system at its best, no child left behind. A response from a prosecutor, “We just want Mr. XXX to be like everyone else,” after a judge asked what would you like in the trial of one without a DL.

    So can we evade the box? If we are indeed queens and kings upon the land, why don’t we act or do as such? When we use anything that the Empire has created, are we keeping our hands to ourselves? When the Queen of England wants to do something does she run down, stand in line [she already has standing] and get a license/permit to add a room to Buckingham? You go to a job and use their facilities or equipment, bet the Supervisor figures you work for the company . . .and the State is the same way – you use their stuff, they presume you are one of theirs, that you joined the club. As a member, they have a benefit/privilege program which some scuffle at and rebel, which puts the company into action to enforce the company rules [trading with the enemy]. If one doesn’t like the club, bow out, make your own. Have you ever left the sandbox because you didn’t get what you wanted, like another throwing sand and/or hitting?

    As a lot of the frustration here in Humboldt is regarding the ‘legalization’ of the mongrel word marijuana – it came to me that we are still using their stuff and demanding them to forget who they are. They are the ones who made this board game of government life we have been acting in and on. I talk about the list of benefit/privileges to stay away from [Citizen, 14th Amendment slave position -U.S. Citizen, DL etc.) and most are evident to me – and some of us intellectualize all this knowingness using UCC, IRC, USC – all their rules, codes, legalise restrictions, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s. But sometimes the most obvious is right in front of us and we have missed it. I don’t want to be an attorney or judge, so why act like I’m in law school to become one? Been there, done that. And life is, just as everyone knows and is often pointed out “S H O R T.” If the system in its infinite wisdom knows who it is, then we need to know that too, and mirror our self back on to it – as we need a hands-off policy. A first invite to go to someone’s house – I.R.S., court – you don’t go thru their refrigerator or drawers looking for stuff you can use. I can just imagine coming out of their bedroom with their hat [Codes], shirt [CFR/USC], or jacket [IRC] on and telling the host it’s yours. That one thing would prove you don’t know what you are doing – great entertainment perhaps. I’ve seen some of the stupid movies that proliferate as entertainment today, watching them I lose my mind, and soon exit. If someone isn’t watching them they would produce something else. As long as many pay for this indoctrination, they keep making them for the walking dead, a wake-up call.

    And so as too the mort(dead) gage (chains) is created by the system, and their ‘marijuana’ so-called laws, it uses the terms convenient and common to their purpose. As they made the grid many, many, years ago that contains all of the stuff [apples] they claim. If we use their descriptions, then we have claimed another benefit/privilege such as the grid [apples].

    As everything they have is in a State of ‘delusion’ [‘Public,’ the De Facto ‘color of law,’ Cinecolorgraph/Cinechrome/Kodachrome/Technicolor/DVD/3 D/ and Blu-ray] they are knocking on the attention door – a wake-up call, shock treatment – not the real, but put into place by lines, numbers, and symbols. Perhaps as we need shelter from the elements and need to use the land for this purpose, as we can’t live in or on paper, we can use the longitude [oranges] to set apart the area we need to shelter us. As the real us, we deal with the real [private] metes and bounds [to distribute or apportion by measure, allot, dole out describing land by listing the compass directions and distances of the boundaries] perhaps using their forms [non-substance color of law] to acquire the real material to interface with the real flesh and blood us [private, black & white, dead or alive] is to bring us back under their delusional rule. So we need to avoid the sky walkers in the great State of delusion as described as the area ruled “over” from such and such point. Can we place both feet on the ground terra firma [grounded and not charged “up”], and let the delusional [dream] go where ever they decide to go, make up stories as they may wish? . . . and what do they have that we can use in a substance based reality? As a queen asks no permission, perhaps we are also to put our claim in, and if there is someone that has a previous claim ahead of ours, we may claim some other item we may need to use as the temporary soujourners [the spirit embodied in the physical] upon the land.

  49. Plain Jane
    December 11, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    I would never trust a blog that can’t get the name of the doctor they are quoting correctly. The James A. Shannon (not R.) quote, “The only safe vaccine is the one that is never used,” is true; but he never said they were more dangerous than not getting vaccines. The claims made by the blog are just as absurd as people saying President Obama was born in Kenya because they’ve never seen his BC. The idea that vaccines don’t work or cause disease is ridiculous on its face. Polio, small pox, measles, mumps and chicken pox have been virtually eradicated in the first world by vaccines. Everything has risks that must be weighed against the benefits. Nothing is safe except death.

  50. Just Watchin
    December 11, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    LMAO….first mistake is to consider anything FQ posts as anywhere near the truth, nimrod.

  51. Anonymous
    December 11, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    I’m convinced Just Watchin’ is a ten year old girl texting in from Florida:
    – Ten-year old reading comprehension and critical thinking skills
    – Tendency to use lame “text speak” like LMAO.
    Oh wait, my ten year old daughter has better critical thinking skills. I take that part back.
    :) :P OMG! LOL!

  52. Just Watchin
    December 11, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    If you have a daughter Anon, it means you’ve been laid at least once, which is one more time than I would have guessed, but you might want to call Maury for a DNA test.

  53. December 11, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    I keep thinking the most simple thoughts. Just Visiting, have you ever been told to put a sock in it? I am suggesting you put a sock in it, at least until you have better understanding of why you likely should..

    You evidently have very limited understanding of a number of persons you are speaking with. A wiser person would iisten better.

    Everything you say is not nonsense, but the mass of junior high school banter makes it all seem so. You could consider that.

    Less would be a lot more, and would not be nothing. You could consider that also.

    Chief Enoughaspoken have spoken. Against his better judgement, but spoken.

  54. December 12, 2012 at 12:10 am

    “I am and have been for years a confirmed anti-vaccinationist . I have not the least doubt in my mind that vaccination is a filthy process that is harmful in the end.”
    Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) Political and Spiritual leader of India.

    Hope I didn’t do a type-o.

  55. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 1:32 am

    Do you get your legal advice from doctors, FQ? Why would what Gandhi thought about vaccines have any relevance?

  56. December 12, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Gee PJ, I thought it would be germane to the conversation. What do dock tors have to do with legal??? Gandhi knew the truth about vaccines in his life time, I knew it in 2003. After my 8 year old nephew died of leukemia, and a friend’s 2 year old SUDDENLY got autism, I started checking vaccine’s ingredients – NOTHING any one of us would Ever put in our bodies- IF they bothered to research. Educate before you vaccinate.

  57. Just Watchin
    December 12, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Anonymous :I’m convinced Just Watchin’ is a ten year old girl texting in from Florida:- Ten-year old reading comprehension and critical thinking skills- Tendency to use lame “text speak” like LMAO.Oh wait, my ten year old daughter has better critical thinking skills. I take that part back.:) :P OMG! LOL!

    I’m pretty sure that you don’t really believe that I’m a ten year old girl. If you did, you’d probably be trying to get me to meet you somewhere so we could “talk”. Pretty creepy.

  58. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 10:22 am

    FQ, Gandhi wasn’t a doctor or a scientist. His beliefs aren’t relevant as to whether or not vaccines save or cost lives. The fact is that vaccines have saved millions of lives for every child who has had a negative effect. There is no evidence that vaccines cause either autism or leukemia. Most children are vaccinated as babies so you COULD blame every disease they develop in their lifetimes on vaccines (or pureed carrots) but that doesn’t make it rational or true.

  59. December 12, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Don’t suppose you put much weight on Jefferson’s quotes either?
    “Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now.”

  60. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 10:37 am

    In 2010 almost 140,000 children died from measles. Between 2001 and 2010 more than one billion children aged 9 months to 14 years who live in high risk countries were vaccinated against the disease. Global measles deaths have decreased by 74% from 535 300 in 2000 to 139 300 in 2010.

    During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300-500 million deaths. In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year. As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year.

    After successful vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the eradication of smallpox in December 1979. To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious disease to have been completely eradicated.

  61. December 12, 2012 at 10:39 am

    The fact is you have free will/choice to believe what you choose. The air, water and soil is being destroyed, but vaccines are safe – yeah I can see the logic there. GMO food – yum.

  62. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Not about medical issues, FQ. Even if he had been a trained physician he wouldn’t have known how disease spread or how to treat them effectively. Doctors spread disease from patient to patient because they didn’t know about germs or the importance of hand washing.

  63. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Of course, I do, FQ. I choose to believe proven scientific facts over superstition and lies. I have no desire to seek opinions based on what I want to believe, but on what the evidence shows. You have provided no credible evidence, just opinions from people without medical or scientific training. You don’t have to be vaccinated and will probably never get a serious disease because of the inoculation of the “herd.”

  64. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 11:00 am

    I fail to see any connection between air, water and soil being destroyed, GMO foods and whether or not vaccines are safe. That you apparently do doesn’t say much for your logic. The fact remains that millions of people no longer die, become disabled (blind, deaf, paralyzed) or disfigured from diseases which have caused so much misery throughout human history. Most of that improvement is undeniably due to medical science and vaccines, not political or spiritual leaders’ beliefs.

  65. December 12, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Like I said before, there’s a $10,000 reward for proving vaccines are safe – go for it.

  66. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 11:48 am

    “Safe” is a relative term, FQ. Safe as compared to what? Safe as compared to getting small pox, polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox or whooping cough? No question about it. You can choke and die on a bite of organic, heirloom fruit. Nothing is absolutely safe. I had relatives who died and/or were partially paralyzed from polio in the 40’s and 50’s. Billions of people are vaccinated every year and only a minuscule number have any sort of a problem from them, certainly far fewer than the number who just a few decades ago died every year from the diseases they prevent.

  67. Plain Jane
    December 12, 2012 at 11:55 am

    And let me just add, Rush Limbaugh offered a huge reward to anyone who caught him in a lie and no one ever collected. Does that mean Limbaugh tells the truth?

  68. December 12, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    How about common sense as compared to scientism and mass-media spoon-fed ‘logic’ for the ignorant masses? Which of the ingredients do you beLIEve belongs in the living, breathing soul? – mercury, chicken embryo, monkey tissue, formaldehyde (used for embalming), mouse brain, calf skin, cow pus, chicken kidney cells, manitol, sorbitol, aspargine (just the nth word change from the original ant poison–aspartame), aluminum phosphate, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue, benzethonium, chloride, ammonium sulfate, washed sheep RBCc, monosodium glutimate, guinea pig embryo cells,
    glularcldehyde phenol – -the man-made, made-up synthetic word list is endless and ever changing.

    Give me hemp oil – two words – from nature for nature.

    You bow down to your white coat Gods, and I’ll bow down to mine.

  69. December 13, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    not wanting to get into this, as Forest Queen and I had a respectful conversation about it, but the link can be interesting.


    I also think it’s quite traumatic, having had the experience, to lose a child, and that we need to be a bit thoughtful about the search for truths that can come of this.

    Best to each.

  70. Plain Jane
    December 13, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Washington State had the most lenient op-out rules for immunization of school aged children and over 6% opted out, the highest in the country. In the first 5 months of 2012 they had an epidemic with 1,264 cases of whooping cough, 10 times the number as 2011 and a record high since the vaccine became available in the 40’s.

    “Pertussis was once a dreaded disease of childhood — killing 5,000 to 10,000 Americans a year from the 1920s through the 1940s — but is now a risk mostly to infants, to whom it is fatal in about 1 percent of cases. Most of the victims in Washington, as in previous outbreaks in other states, are between 8 and 12.

    It’s the largest epidemic I’ve ever seen,” said Becky Neff, the only registered nurse in the 3,700-student Burlington-Edison School District, in Skagit County. Ms. Neff said she had seen 142 suspected and confirmed cases, or about 3.8 percent of the student population from kindergarten through 12th grade.”

    “Ms. Selecky said immunizations were meant to protect not only individuals but also the broader population: the so-called herd immunity threshold. If a large enough segment of the population is unprotected from a disease — generally considered 5 percent to 15 percent, depending on the disease — even people with some degree of immunity through vaccination can have an elevated risk, she said.”


  71. December 13, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    Yes, I think that’s a very important part of the need for vaccinations.

    You can think of it easily as a sort of firewall or firebreak — if because of vaccination there isn’t somebody unprotected to pass the illness on, a case stops with its infected person.

    If there is another susceptible, the disease can be passed on, and so forth, so that many get it.

    None of us like to be stuck or to have anything related to disease near our body – that’s natural. However, if you’ve needed an antibiotic, or seen someone who did, then you tend to realize the great boon of things that science has been able to verify will remove the bad guys — and leave your health alone to prosper.

    That’s what vaccines also do.

  72. December 13, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    New Jersey Girl Gets 4.7 Million For Vaccine Injury

  73. December 13, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    Government Pays Millions to Vaccine Injured Kids

  74. December 13, 2012 at 9:59 pm
  75. December 13, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    I didn’t mean to say that the word (a)spartame was originally ant poison – just that it is the best ant POISON.

  76. Just Watchin
    December 14, 2012 at 6:29 am

    And people gave me crap when I said FQ was a wacko…..

  77. Anonymous
    December 14, 2012 at 6:52 am

    November 25, 2012 at 5:58 am | #14 Just Watchin


    Anonymous……I may be a Republican, but my opinions are not always with the party line. For example, I’m O.K. with abortion. As a matter of fact, I believe abortion should be mandatory for pregnant women with two or more children who are collecting any form of welfare.

    November 28, 2012 at 9:26 am | #133 Just Watchin


    My good friend Shudder Bug got me to thinking, and I’ve changed my position on forced abortions for welfare women. Here it is: A woman collecting welfare and having her second (or more) child should have thier tubes tied during the birthing procedure. Once she has been “welfare free” for a period of two consecutive years, the procedure could be reversed, at the government’s expense, and she could have another child. However, if she is back on welfare at the birth of her third child, tubes are tied again, and she must be welfare free for three years. No infants are killed, and the baby factories may think twice before spreadin them without protection!!

  78. Plain Jane
    December 14, 2012 at 7:28 am

    Chocolate is poison to dogs so should people not eat it? Should millions of children die from diseases rather than use vaccines which cause a slight problem for a small percent and a serious problem for a few? No rational person would suggest that we should.

  79. Just Watchin
    December 14, 2012 at 7:45 am

    And the Legend lives on !!! Thank you Anonymous, my #1 fan.

  80. Anonymous
    December 14, 2012 at 9:07 am

    Republican Brand on Life Support

    GOP Pollster: Republicans Have ‘Run Out Of’ White Voters

    Benjy Sarlin-December 12, 2012

    Republicans need to dramatically improve their standing with Latino voters or risk becoming a “regional party” of disaffected whites, according to a study released Wednesday by a GOP pollster.

    “Republicans have run out of persuadable white voters,” Resurgent Republic pollster Whit Ayres and the conservative Hispanic Leadership Network’s Jennifer Korn concluded in a memo detailing the results of the study.

  81. Just Watchin
    December 14, 2012 at 10:02 am

    And democrats are proud of their history?

  82. Just Watchin
    December 14, 2012 at 10:05 am

    More democrat party history to be proud of:

  83. Anonymous
    December 14, 2012 at 10:53 am

    The Troll “Just Wankin” continues his provocations by posting a bunch of crap he never read. Please disregard the nonsense from this Florida wanker – LMFAO, OMG, LOL!

  84. December 14, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    Hi Forest Queen – just read through the links you posted, save one which my protection softtware didn’t like.

    I think the keys to this are two: thinking about proportion, and watching the on-going science to see which if any of specific worries may be true.

    Proportion is about understanding that yes, just about anything we do has some element of risk. Vaccines do carry risks — but the level of risk is very, very small. The risk is much larger from not using them, just as it would be from not using antibiotics when they are indicated. I just did use the ones prescribed for a tooth, and I am very glad for what they cured.

    I don’t use them except in such a case — it’s the over-prescription when persons ask for them on conditions which won’t be helped by them, and our vast over-use for a time in raising animals for the food system, which has reduced their effectiveness (the bacteria get used to them).

    Vaccines on this proportional way of thinking — well, the polio mentioned above is something probably all speaking here remember, and then there are smallpox, diptheria, tetanus for example that we hardly remember, but used to be very prevalent and vicious killers.

    The other thinking I’m mentioning is about specific worries whether vaccines (or their delivery mediums or methods – that’s where the mercury question came in) may actually be causing or influencing unexpected problems, such as the autism question.

    Here are a set of references. The first, from the CDC, is very carefully worded — yes, in the way scientists speak of such things as a basis. I think it is trying to be entirely fair to the perception people had for a while about the autism question, while stating that this has been disproven — and as well, that the CDC is even so keeping a very close eye on any evidence that might open a new path for understanding. I don’t know how you can get more accurate and fair to facts as well as concerns of persons than that. It’s near the language a personal doctor might give.


    Now, the main concern was if the _organic_ mercury compound, thimersol, related I think to the merthiolate we used to liberally put on cuts and scratches, might have been a cause for autism — rather than better noticing and reporting in modern society of lesser degress of autism which is what is actually thought to be the reason for some rise in rates.

    This thimersol/mercury question is what the CDC note deals with, and you’ll notice that the thimersol was taken out more than ten years ago, so that they have been able to compare. Notice also that they first took out the questioned item, which I think shows the cautious response also, as far as intent.

    I underlined organic above because whether mercury can hurt you depends on what other chemicals it is bound to. Thimersol was thought safe, while keeping fungus and bacteria from growing in the vaccines, and it appears to have again been proven so, even though it’s not used there any more.

    Here’s a more general summary note about vaccine scares, from Wikipedia.


    You’ll see that the whole scare was caused by a person making fraudulent claims, who was disciplined because he put that great benefit of vaccines into jeopardy, but only after the most careful attention had been given to his methods and his claims, to see if he actually had had a point. I think that’s the best we could ask for.

    Now, why do we get so scared about a small risk, which on a scale of justice is vastly overweighed by the benefit almost every person gets from vaccinations? I think this is actually a very interesting question for many of us, me included, and so have been pretty interested in recent work to understand this better which I had heard of.

    Here is one summary of what’s becoming understood about this, again via Wikipedia;


    I would summarize myself from studies I’ve seen which deal with all kinds of situations where persons (us) don’t see risk and benefit in proper proportion. It turns out we are like this almost all the time. You can understand that an aversion response to something that _might_ pose danger can actually be pretty healthy, particularly in evolutionary times where we were out there trying to snare some rabbits before the bear ate us. Running away from a noise would most often protect us.

    However, it is actually the usefulness of the learning, others-can-demonstrate-the same-thing, knowledge-based approach (what we call science) that we can discover and become aware of what actually works better, and become less afraid of what we shouldn’t be, in balance.

    If we know how we could be influenced by ‘what we just heard’, as we are for example, then we can be more sensible about advertisements, and make that decision for buying something after giving ourselves a chance for such influence to go away. We can ‘sleep on it’, which often works wonders, and wake up with a much more nuanced and personal judgement whether we would like to spend our resources in a particular way.

    Thus we can know the instant-response and the longer-term sensibility we arrive at are different, and come from different discovery and processing of information, which topics I know you are interested in, Forest Queen.

    Here’s an example on how our useful knowledge grows, to show I am trying to be fair.– vitamins. First, nobody knew anything, and sailors without fruits got scurvy. Then someone noticed that, and started shipping lemons along, with better results. Later, 19th century or so, chemists could go farther into this, and recognize there were specific substances, for example Vitamin C, which allowed us to know where there were many more sources for this, such as cranberry juice. Later yet, we could extract the vitamins, and put them in pills.

    And now the clinker for this real story. Discovery in science moved on, and found there is a good possibility that pills aren’t always as good as real fruits. More work yet, and we are aware this has to do with ‘availability’ — what forms the body actually accepts the Vitamin C from, more effectively. I don’t happen to know whether it’s clear yet whether better pills can be designed, so I take the advice (and on other clues) that it’s best to eat a variety of natural foods, as a lot of people like to now.

    I got to what I prefer by taking the ‘sleep on it’ approach. I unlearned the ‘got to take the pills’ idea, which wasn’t so strong, but had a long history, and was there. I used the better knowledge to come to choosing, in this case, a story that a natural foods store, if not a health food store offering alternative potions, would be happy with.

    There are much more complicated stories out there, like the auto-immune problem my daughter had, like diabetes, like a number of things we still mostly suffer from. I’ve personally been living in a time where you can see that very real advancements have come over a generation or so, on all these things.

    This is by the same methods which cautiously looked, acted first to possibly improve, and then discovered that vaccines aren’t part of the problem people concerned about. And keeps the same eyes carefully open.

    That’s the best side of science. Yes, it can get corrupted by management blindness and financial influence, like any of our human abilities. But it does contain safeguards as long as the humans doing the science and making the judgement continue in what they best intend. I think they are mostly doing it, and that we mostly benefit, as the heavy-duty fact-finding on the vaccines issue shows.

    Forest Queen, once again respectfully spoken here, and always with the sense of how each of us as individuals makes our choices. The nice thing is that we can keep learning better where the choices we like may be, and how to wisely listen to ourselves as well as each other.

    Thanks for putting up your ideas, and as you know I advise paying no attention whatsoever to the ‘peanut gallery’ when they are only being antagonistic. Freedom to re-think on common habits is its own contribution. Best to you on this rainy day here, as likely there.

  85. December 14, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Forest Queen, actually I wrote you a large (and respectful, as always) article.

    WordPress apparently ate it all. Munch.

    Not sure what will do about this – first see if it clambers up from the depths.

    Cheers to you, up there.

  86. Anonymous
    December 15, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    Anonymous :
    The Troll “Just Wankin” continues his provocations by posting a bunch of crap he never read. Please disregard the nonsense from this Florida wanker – LMFAO, OMG, LOL!

    Cowardly of you to call those who disagree with you and point out uncomfortable facts as trolls.

  87. Just Watchin
    December 15, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    The truth is a liberals worst enemy. They think that by attacking the messenger, they can change the message.

  88. December 16, 2012 at 10:11 am

    No email downloads for me – colossal sun flares. My post also didn’t post. I’ll give it another try here: I have given my dogs chocolate before – they didn’t die, or even get sick. PJ – this is not a contest. At #65 you say: “I fail to see . . .” – I posted the beginning link regarding “The Vaccine Hoax” for those who have eyes that can see, and ears that can hear. You go on to judge my logic by stating your ‘opinions.’ The fact is PJ, I was weighing ozs, bricks/kilos when you were still shitting yellow. The fact is, you haven’t had a nephew, brother, daughter and friends pass over because of an injection of BIG PHARMA. The fact is about choosing between good and evil, fact and fiction, real and illusion. So AEnlighten me PJ, — the National Vaccine Injury Payment ‘Program’ is for what???

    I asked you which of the toxic ingredients in a vaccine do you consider of ANY good to the living, breathing soul? You didn’t answer.

    Fact is, the worst of the worse ‘words on paper,’ that PERSONS/fiction (somehow?) believe apply to them as living, breathing people, are on agendas in December while the community is on holidaze, i.e. Federal (not) Reserve (not) Bank ACT, the Income Tax ACT – – same as it ever was – last Dec. 13 the one agenda item of 59 pages, was passed to vaccinate everything that moves in Humboldt County – under the superfluous terminology “Contractor Jurisdiction.” Of course, “Contractor Jurisdiction” is harbgarrble linguistics . . . more fiction/lies/deceit. That’s their ‘job’ description – keep spreading the manure . . .and it’s getting thicker by the minute.

    We the people are the source of all currency. We the people are robbed to the tune of $35.00/hour!!!! to these criminals and thieves (fiction Supes) to perform their ‘job’ description (per STATE dictate). The Supes produce nothing. The Supes are either (or all three) lazy, distracted, not interested enough to be bothered to do any homework. For if any one of them had bothered to research, at least one toxic injection called ‘Gardisil,’ they would have found that nearly 200 young girls died in Britain from Gardisil. They were/are just doing their ‘job’ – brain not engaged.

    To the self-proclaimed messenger on the other side of the map — I’d like to buy you for what you’re worth, and sell you for what you think you’re worth.

  89. December 16, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Hi Forest Queen – you got me to look at spaceweather.com, and find a beautiful picture of the aurora there — memories of how it shifts and dances in the northern night just add to sense of beauty and unusualness in our world.

    Listen, I thought a little more, and all I tried to get posted the other day could be said in a phrase.

    To me at least, the important thing is to gain and maintain a sense of proportion.

    It’s sure, and I would not argue that with you, that vaccines, just as with any other medicine you can think of, do once in a while cause illness or other adverse reactions, even to the point of death. This is just as their labels say. However, this almost never happens. Almost never.

    What does happen, almost all the time, is that illness which is surely dangerous is prevented. I don’t want to get and don’t want to see children get polio, smallpox, tetanus, or HPV-instigated cancer, among the many things on a mostly now-preventable list. I remember when people did get polio around me, and that was bad enough.

    I don’t know the circumstance of the child you lost, but in my case, we had to try treatments which simply were very dangerous, because they were her true last chance. Basically, to stop the immune system for a moment, because it had been discovered that this would often restart with it working properly again. If you survived the stopping. There were papers to be signed, and the daughter signed them for herself, as well as her parents. For her at least, it was good to be included in the responsibility, which she took very well in managing her condition, which probably gave her a number of extra years.

    She took the treatment twice, because the first time produced no results. The second time everything looked surprisingly good, and then very quickly was not. Her mother and I felt strongly that this was ‘all right’, in the language of young parents; we knew everything possible had been tried, and again that she had no further chances otherwise in her time of life.

    You see, even with her odds, one would choose the medicine. That’s what I mean by a sense of proportion. With the vaccines and the like offered to vastly reduce illness today, the odds are very, very much better. Almost no-one gets a bad reaction.

    The sense of fear is always there, yes. In fact there’s work that helps us understand that better now. We do fear all out of proportion. If there is something to fear, we tend to have strong feeling to act on that. It’s been a safer response for much humans have met in evolutionary times: it’s important when you’re out there on the Serengeti trying to club a rabbit not to starve, before the bear finds and eats you, that you run away..

    In the case of modern circumstances like medicine, that instinctive fear usually produces the wrong answers, because it doesn’t recognize proportion. With a sense of proportion, we accept that the enormous likelihood is that a medicine will help us. And if something else happens, we are also able to understand that even so, we did the right thing.

    We gained the best chances for the child, or anyone who still as we do holds the child within all we are.

    I think the sense of proportion gets us away from the judgement of right or wrong, and I hope those others commenting when this discussion comes up can see the justice in that.

    Best from a quiet day here, Forest Queen. We had a storm, and are going to have another, but it will be smaller, and it’s nice to walk around either of them. How we do..

  90. December 16, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    Dear Narration,
    Permit me to say these things in another way:
    Some remain conditioned by their belief systems of a society and culture that has been locked into third-dimensional mentality for thousands of years. Western medisin’s ‘practice’ appear theatrical and primitive as it focuses on the body – as if it’s a machine.We need to remind ourselves that we have a body, feelings, and a mind . . . but you, me, we, us are not any of these. Medisin seeks to “cure” and we use “war” vocabulary such as – “She’s got a battle on her hands,” or “He needs to fight it,” or “We have to win this battle against cancer” and so on. That language and attitude is one of violence against ourselves. We give away our power to self-heal and hand our lives to an external source that lacks the understanding to explore dis-ease at a deeper multidimensional level. Our brain and biochemistry alters and responds to our vocabulary, both the words and the energy our words convey. Dr. Masaru Emoto’s books
    ‘The Secret Life of Water,’ and ‘The Hidden Messages in Water’ brings forth such knowledge.
    We are on the threshold of a shift from the southern to the northern galactic hemisphere; as this occurs we will reach the threshold of the thirteenth dimension, the rainbow bridge. First, we need to fully integrate the energies of the remaining 3D dimension into our consciousness – a process that may take little or much time, depending on the spiritual development of each one of us.
    Best to you also.

  91. December 17, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Read with care and interest, Forest Queen.

    You might like to know that one of the tactics I was moved to open my mind to and try for the daughter was a method of hypnosis, which came out of the work particularly at the University of Texas about mental states appearing to sometimes be able to affect cancer outcomes. I found one of the top persons in this, independent of them, to be wllling to have quite a good conversation with me, and then went through local therapists until I found one I had confidence in.

    We went to the appointments and tried this; in her case (which would have been related to the child leukemics who she was with when in the hostital, as we were very fortunate to have one of the top centers in the country for childrens hematology made available to her.

    It didn’t make apparent differences, but I felt quite good we had been open-minded enough to seek in this direction, and so done all we could discover for her. As far as I know the research hasn’t been conclusive either, and now there are better opportunities for both cancer patients and those with autoimmune conditions.

    I think that’s all I have to say about such subjects, and hope any of it may be in connection with aspects which are interesting and helpful to you, Forest Queen.

    Best again.

  92. December 17, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    I never meant to imply that as loving parents we didn’t do EVERYTHING we knew to do. Of course you did, of course I did.

    Unfortunately, my two posts of this morning Mitch decided (for some reason?) to moderate, as I had mentioned my daughter.

  93. December 17, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Forest Queen, thanks a lot, and fully understood. Of course we did, and at least for me, this is quite a time ago. I just remember my young friend, for besides all the rest, this she was.


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